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The Queen was right to give Tony Blair a knighthood – politicalbetting.com

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  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    People have every right to object to Tony Blair being given a knighthood. Whilst Mike makes some important points about elections, they aren't the be all and end all. Nixon won the presidency twice. Thatcher won three elections but if her opponents wanted to make noise about her being given honours or distinctions, good luck to them. After all, Oxford never gave her an honorary degree.

    The opposition to Blair is also a little misunderstood. Yougov does a very interesting ratings for all prime ministers every quarter. Blair fares very badly, as does Cameron. The poll quoted earlier shows a wide disapproval amongst the public as a whole to him being given a knighthood. It's a big mistake to think all the resistance comes from Labour's twitterati. It's worth wondering why this may be. Iraq is the obvious answer. Those on the left will never forgive him for launching an illegal, avoidable war on a dodgy premise. As for the patriotic right they will never forgive him for the fact the war turned into a disaster. The same people who are stirred by military victory in say the Falklands, will be unforgiving about defeat. I'm not sure Blair understands this preferring to believe that conservatives don't like him because he won three elections. He appeared to capture the centre ground but on Europe, immigration and military action he was in his own way as radical as Thatcher. We never claim to be confused about her being a polarizing figure though.

    I wasn't bothered by the knighthood myself but I can respect those who take a different view. Whatever Blair's achievements, dishonestly taking us into a bungled war isn't a minor matter to be swept under the carpet.

    Beating the Party of Government for three consecutive elections was also unforgivable.
    Maybe I'm biased coming from a Tory family but I don't really see that. True the Conservatives were used to winning but I think their disdain had more to do with Euro enthusiasm, immigration and the quagmire of Iraq than anything else.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2022
    I think Omicron has had a good old British try at reducing this number significantly...

    Up to 60 per cent of people in England have still never had Covid, suggest estimates made by top scientists who have advised ministers throughout the pandemic.

    Cambridge University researchers believe 23.3million infections had truly occurred by December 17, out of a total population of roughly 56million.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10367049/How-people-England-REALLY-Covid.html
  • IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    On Topic.

    Not according to todays YG

    📊 Do you approve or disapprove of Tony Blair being given a knighthood?

    ✅ Approve: 14%
    ❌ Disapprove: 63%

    Net rating of -49

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 4 Jan 2022

    All this Blair stuff is not good for Starmer I thihk, as I was saying earlier. He's been steadily and implicitly building a rehabilitation of Blair-type politics, and then along comes this to reunite Lefties and Tories against the idea of Blair again.

    However, I don't think it will be much more than temporary - the government's problems and failings are now just much too familiar in the public's imagination.
    Am I wrong in thinking that it was his Iraq policy that made Blair so toxic, and that otherwise he was generally regarded as sort of ok?

    And I am wrong in thinking that the Conservative Party supported that policy wholeheartedly?

    And the LD's opposed it (and that did them no bloody good whatsoever)?
    You're certainly right that the Tories' full-throated support of the Iraq debacle seems to have been almost entirely expunged from the public's memory - or at least that of the rightwing press.

    You never would have guessed from the Daily Mail's hysterical coverage of the Blair honours that many, if not all, Tory backbenchers ( and frontbenchers ) were even more enthusiastic for the war than Campbell and Blair themselves.

    However, it's an excellent way of chipping away at Labour, so the tabloids will apply their usual morality and history-free approach to the particular topic.

    You're also right that Charles Kennedy's intelligent and brave stance has been much too much forgotten. I also personally was much more in sympathy with his LD party than more recent incarnations.
    Robin Cook gave the stand out performance.

    As for the Tories Blair was apparently privately disgusted by IDS's unqualified support and called him "Little Sir Echo." If there was a war crime, given they were allowed a vote, the entire HoC should be in the dock.
    Remarkable that he didn’t see the irony, given his relationship with Bush.
    Good point.

    What I despise him most for is his claim to have said to Bush, about Iraq, "I'm in." Not the sort of thing adults say in real life, but obviously him saying what he wanted George Clooney to say when playing him in his biopic.
    Richards’s book suggests Blair, like Clinton, was focused on what he saw as the critical swing constituency - which at the time was somewhere between Basildon Man and Worcester Woman - and wanted to make sure he didn’t lose support (or give the flat-on-their-back Tories an ‘in’) by appearing soft or anti-American on foreign policy.

    He also reminds us that Blair’s first foray into electoral politics was as Labour candidate in the Beaconsfield by-election just after the Falklands War, and he reports Robin Cook, who had gone along to help, finding Blair in awe of the strong support Thatcher was picking up on the back of the war. Richards suggests Blair was hoping to get some of the same for himself.
    Steve Richards also argued that part of Blair's justification for the war was to keep the Murdoch media onside for a future Euro referendum and that he was concerned about the Tories being seen as more Atlanticist.

    That's arguably the tragic part in hindsight.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm surprised to hear @HYUFD speak so highly of Tony Blair given he walloped the Conservatives not once, not twice but three times.

    From a non-Conservative, non-Labour perspective my main sense of Tony Blair is one of disappointment, of an opportunity to change Britain forever squandered. Blair had a majority of 179 - he literally had the power to do what he wanted and had an electorate at that time willing to go down a more radical path.

    Blair could have transformed the politics and governance of the whole of the UK and you can't argue he didn't effect change in Scotland and Wales but for England it was the sum total of bugger all. The devolution settlement offered to other parts of the UK wasn't offered in England and that was, I think, a mistake.

    Perhaps there were plans for something more radical in the second term but these were thwarted by events in New York which came to dominate the time and his legacy.

    I don't define Blair by Iraq - I define him by the fact he could have been as radical a Prime Minister as Thatcher or Attlee but achieved so little.

    Perhaps he was as much a conservative as many believed.

    Blair only had a majority of 179 though because he promised not to do anything too radical - he had a big mandate to do small things. I would have liked Labour to do more, but that wasn't the platform on which they were elected.
    Personally, I think he was a great PM who improved the country significantly. I disagreed strongly with his policy on Iraq and still do but I think it reflected a sincere belief about the benefits of liberal interventionism and in any case I wouldn't overstate the UK's importance in the conflict.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,243
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741


    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?

    I've said this on here before but the Falklands War didn't just save Margaret Thatcher and the Conservatives, it also saved Michael Foot and Labour.

    The conflict preserved the duopoly from the biggest threat it had ever faced. There are plenty who think Thatcher would have been re-elected in 1983 or 1984 - I'm less convinced. She would certainly not have won a 144 seat landslide enabling the radicalism of the second term.

    A stronger Alliance vote would have also weakened Labour further though that might have brought forward (via John Smith perhaps) an earlier return to a more centrist position except that ground would have been occupied by Messrs Owen and Steel (assuming the Alliance wasn't broken on the altar of defence policy).

    Imagine the future - "the Alliance as both Government and Opposition forever".

    Shade Orwellian perhaps?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    IanB2 said:



    IanB2 said:

    People have every right to object to Tony Blair being given a knighthood. Whilst Mike makes some important points about elections, they aren't the be all and end all. Nixon won the presidency twice. Thatcher won three elections but if her opponents wanted to make noise about her being given honours or distinctions, good luck to them. After all, Oxford never gave her an honorary degree.

    The opposition to Blair is also a little misunderstood. Yougov does a very interesting ratings for all prime ministers every quarter. Blair fares very badly, as does Cameron. The poll quoted earlier shows a wide disapproval amongst the public as a whole to him being given a knighthood. It's a big mistake to think all the resistance comes from Labour's twitterati. It's worth wondering why this may be. Iraq is the obvious answer. Those on the left will never forgive him for launching an illegal, avoidable war on a dodgy premise. As for the patriotic right they will never forgive him for the fact the war turned into a disaster. The same people who are stirred by military victory in say the Falklands, will be unforgiving about defeat. I'm not sure Blair understands this preferring to believe that conservatives don't like him because he won three elections. He appeared to capture the centre ground but on Europe, immigration and military action he was in his own way as radical as Thatcher. We never claim to be confused about her being a polarizing figure though.

    I wasn't bothered by the knighthood myself but I can respect those who take a different view. Whatever Blair's achievements, dishonestly taking us into a bungled war isn't a minor matter to be swept under the carpet.

    Steve Richards’s book on Prime Ministerial leadership is illuminating on how Blair got fenced in by some rash promises and his determination to appear strong, and by the time he saw the trap he was in, there was no way out other than to press ahead and hope for a happy ending.
    I haven't read the prime ministerial book but from what I've read elsewhere I'm not sure I buy Richards' analysis of Blair. He seems to think that Blair felt he had to please Bush/Murdoch etc so had no choice. The reality is that he pretty much goaded Clinton into the Kosovo campaign and appeared to have a strong conviction that the world could be remade through military action.
    No, he paints the story as Blair thinking he had choices (in particular by hanging on the UN route) when in reality, and partly through his own rashness, he had passed the point of no return from the beginning.

    And his remembering how Thatcher had benefited from suddenly being seen as a strong national war leader, during his first election campaign, isn’t incompatible with believing that liberal intervention could remake the world. If the latter had been true, a payoff as per the former would have been more likely.
    But it is clear after 2001 that Blair became much more a man of conviction. The idea of him cynically calculating the electoral benefit of such policies doesn't seem quite right. Not sure why Richards wants to shy away from ideology.
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Twitter has permanently banned the popular news aggregation service Politics For All, in a sign of how the social media platform has substantial power to deprive news outlets of their audience without warning.

    A spokesperson said the account was “suspended for violating the Twitter Rules on platform manipulation and spam” and would not be allowed to return.


    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/04/twitter-permanently-bans-news-aggregation-service-politics-for-all?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Ahem

    BREAKING: Twitter suspends PoliticsForAll account.
    Story: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/04/twitter-permanently-bans-news-aggregation-service-politics-for-all?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
    "It also built a relatively mainstream fanbase – with the likes of former Manchester United footballer Gary Neville among those calling for the account to be reinstated."

    Well if I was on the fence about their removal, now I am fully on board that it has been banned :-)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I'm surprised to hear @HYUFD speak so highly of Tony Blair given he walloped the Conservatives not once, not twice but three times.

    From a non-Conservative, non-Labour perspective my main sense of Tony Blair is one of disappointment, of an opportunity to change Britain forever squandered. Blair had a majority of 179 - he literally had the power to do what he wanted and had an electorate at that time willing to go down a more radical path.

    Blair could have transformed the politics and governance of the whole of the UK and you can't argue he didn't effect change in Scotland and Wales but for England it was the sum total of bugger all. The devolution settlement offered to other parts of the UK wasn't offered in England and that was, I think, a mistake.

    Perhaps there were plans for something more radical in the second term but these were thwarted by events in New York which came to dominate the time and his legacy.

    I don't define Blair by Iraq - I define him by the fact he could have been as radical a Prime Minister as Thatcher or Attlee but achieved so little.

    Perhaps he was as much a conservative as many believed.

    Blair only had a majority of 179 though because he promised not to do anything too radical - he had a big mandate to do small things. I would have liked Labour to do more, but that wasn't the platform on which they were elected.
    Personally, I think he was a great PM who improved the country significantly. I disagreed strongly with his policy on Iraq and still do but I think it reflected a sincere belief about the benefits of liberal interventionism and in any case I wouldn't overstate the UK's importance in the conflict.
    Yes and no. He absolutely has a mandate on the voting system (which would have gone to referendum anyway) and had that gone through, much would have changed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    People have every right to object to Tony Blair being given a knighthood. Whilst Mike makes some important points about elections, they aren't the be all and end all. Nixon won the presidency twice. Thatcher won three elections but if her opponents wanted to make noise about her being given honours or distinctions, good luck to them. After all, Oxford never gave her an honorary degree.

    The opposition to Blair is also a little misunderstood. Yougov does a very interesting ratings for all prime ministers every quarter. Blair fares very badly, as does Cameron. The poll quoted earlier shows a wide disapproval amongst the public as a whole to him being given a knighthood. It's a big mistake to think all the resistance comes from Labour's twitterati. It's worth wondering why this may be. Iraq is the obvious answer. Those on the left will never forgive him for launching an illegal, avoidable war on a dodgy premise. As for the patriotic right they will never forgive him for the fact the war turned into a disaster. The same people who are stirred by military victory in say the Falklands, will be unforgiving about defeat. I'm not sure Blair understands this preferring to believe that conservatives don't like him because he won three elections. He appeared to capture the centre ground but on Europe, immigration and military action he was in his own way as radical as Thatcher. We never claim to be confused about her being a polarizing figure though.

    I wasn't bothered by the knighthood myself but I can respect those who take a different view. Whatever Blair's achievements, dishonestly taking us into a bungled war isn't a minor matter to be swept under the carpet.

    Beating the Party of Government for three consecutive elections was also unforgivable.
    Maybe I'm biased coming from a Tory family but I don't really see that. True the Conservatives were used to winning but I think their disdain had more to do with Euro enthusiasm, immigration and the quagmire of Iraq than anything else.
    Iraq was an unforgivable millstone around Blair's neck, and as has been mentioned earlier, the Conservatives' have selective memory over their support for Iraq, which is why I suggest beating the Conservatives was a more salient reason to despise him
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    It could be, or it could equally be any form of non-human intelligence or plain of existence. In our modern condition, many of us have over-confidently written off all sorts of spritual and cosmic possibilities that our ancestors took for granted for tens of thousands of years before us, thinking that we know.

    But we don't.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,243

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081

    People have every right to object to Tony Blair being given a knighthood. Whilst Mike makes some important points about elections, they aren't the be all and end all. Nixon won the presidency twice. Thatcher won three elections but if her opponents wanted to make noise about her being given honours or distinctions, good luck to them. After all, Oxford never gave her an honorary degree.

    The opposition to Blair is also a little misunderstood. Yougov does a very interesting ratings for all prime ministers every quarter. Blair fares very badly, as does Cameron. The poll quoted earlier shows a wide disapproval amongst the public as a whole to him being given a knighthood. It's a big mistake to think all the resistance comes from Labour's twitterati. It's worth wondering why this may be. Iraq is the obvious answer. Those on the left will never forgive him for launching an illegal, avoidable war on a dodgy premise. As for the patriotic right they will never forgive him for the fact the war turned into a disaster. The same people who are stirred by military victory in say the Falklands, will be unforgiving about defeat. I'm not sure Blair understands this preferring to believe that conservatives don't like him because he won three elections. He appeared to capture the centre ground but on Europe, immigration and military action he was in his own way as radical as Thatcher. We never claim to be confused about her being a polarizing figure though.

    I wasn't bothered by the knighthood myself but I can respect those who take a different view. Whatever Blair's achievements, dishonestly taking us into a bungled war isn't a minor matter to be swept under the carpet.

    Beating the Party of Government for three consecutive elections was also unforgivable.
    Maybe I'm biased coming from a Tory family but I don't really see that. True the Conservatives were used to winning but I think their disdain had more to do with Euro enthusiasm, immigration and the quagmire of Iraq than anything else.
    Iraq was an unforgivable millstone around Blair's neck, and as has been mentioned earlier, the Conservatives' have selective memory over their support for Iraq, which is why I suggest beating the Conservatives was a more salient reason to despise him
    As I recall, IDS wanted to go in ignoring the UN, whereas Labour wanted UN backing, and tried hard to get it.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
    Why? Because there are swathes of Trump voters who think the virus is fake. That the vaccine is a conspiracy. That there was no coup attempt. Etc etc. Call them whatever you like, the film ripped the piss out of that entire mindset in the most brutally beautiful way.

    "Don't Look Up" is high satire. Ignore your own senses, we're telling you what is right.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,738
    Don't get sick...

    Would be quicker for GM to list everywhere that *hasn’t* tonight put non-urgent operations on hold: the answer being Rochdale Infirmary.

    Everywhere else (Christie aside) everything bar Covid, emergency and cancer surgery is now paused👇
    https://twitter.com/helenavesty/status/1478458691527614464
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,183
    stodge said:


    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?

    I've said this on here before but the Falklands War didn't just save Margaret Thatcher and the Conservatives, it also saved Michael Foot and Labour.

    The conflict preserved the duopoly from the biggest threat it had ever faced. There are plenty who think Thatcher would have been re-elected in 1983 or 1984 - I'm less convinced. She would certainly not have won a 144 seat landslide enabling the radicalism of the second term.

    A stronger Alliance vote would have also weakened Labour further though that might have brought forward (via John Smith perhaps) an earlier return to a more centrist position except that ground would have been occupied by Messrs Owen and Steel (assuming the Alliance wasn't broken on the altar of defence policy).

    Imagine the future - "the Alliance as both Government and Opposition forever".

    Shade Orwellian perhaps?
    My interpretation is that the opinion polls were swinging back to the Tories in the second half of that parliament anyway - the Tories had a spike from the Falklands effect, but this fell back to the trend line before the election.
    What won the Tories a landslide was the unelectability of a far left Labour Party.
    The primary driver of the Tory vote over my lifetime has been the extent to which voters fear Labour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,243
    edited January 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    Actually, I'm not sure that is *entirely* true. It may be a kind of selection bias at work

    Dig deeper and some of the most compelling or mysterious "visitations" have happened in Zimbabwe, Iran, Russia, England, and Italy, to name just a few

    On the other hand there is a theory that these craft - whether Chinese or Neptunian - are interested in our technology, nuclear and otherwise, and/or our capacity to misuse this, which is why they turn up in militarily significant but empty places like Nevada

  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Just popped in with some German polling which as you might imagine hasn't moved much since the election in September.

    The latest INSA poll for Bild (changes from the election):

    SPD: 26.5% (+0.8)
    CDU/CSU: 23% (-1.1)
    Greens: 15.5% (+0.7)
    Alternative for Germany: 11.5% (+1.2)
    Free Democrats: 11% (-0.3)
    LINKE: 6% (+1.1)

    The governing coalition up very slightly suggesting if not a wholesale political honeymoon then a quiet satisfaction with the new SDP-Green-FDP government.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited January 2022

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    On Topic.

    Not according to todays YG

    📊 Do you approve or disapprove of Tony Blair being given a knighthood?

    ✅ Approve: 14%
    ❌ Disapprove: 63%

    Net rating of -49

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 4 Jan 2022

    All this Blair stuff is not good for Starmer I thihk, as I was saying earlier. He's been steadily and implicitly building a rehabilitation of Blair-type politics, and then along comes this to reunite Lefties and Tories against the idea of Blair again.

    However, I don't think it will be much more than temporary - the government's problems and failings are now just much too familiar in the public's imagination.
    Am I wrong in thinking that it was his Iraq policy that made Blair so toxic, and that otherwise he was generally regarded as sort of ok?

    And I am wrong in thinking that the Conservative Party supported that policy wholeheartedly?

    And the LD's opposed it (and that did them no bloody good whatsoever)?
    You're certainly right that the Tories' full-throated support of the Iraq debacle seems to have been almost entirely expunged from the public's memory - or at least that of the rightwing press.

    You never would have guessed from the Daily Mail's hysterical coverage of the Blair honours that many, if not all, Tory backbenchers ( and frontbenchers ) were even more enthusiastic for the war than Campbell and Blair themselves.

    However, it's an excellent way of chipping away at Labour, so the tabloids will apply their usual morality and history-free approach to the particular topic.

    You're also right that Charles Kennedy's intelligent and brave stance has been much too much forgotten. I also personally was much more in sympathy with his LD party than more recent incarnations.
    Robin Cook gave the stand out performance.

    As for the Tories Blair was apparently privately disgusted by IDS's unqualified support and called him "Little Sir Echo." If there was a war crime, given they were allowed a vote, the entire HoC should be in the dock.
    Remarkable that he didn’t see the irony, given his relationship with Bush.
    Good point.

    What I despise him most for is his claim to have said to Bush, about Iraq, "I'm in." Not the sort of thing adults say in real life, but obviously him saying what he wanted George Clooney to say when playing him in his biopic.
    Richards’s book suggests Blair, like Clinton, was focused on what he saw as the critical swing constituency - which at the time was somewhere between Basildon Man and Worcester Woman - and wanted to make sure he didn’t lose support by appearing soft or anti-American on foreign policy.

    He also reminds us that Blair’s first foray into electoral politics was as Labour candidate in the Beaconsfield by-election just after the Falklands War, and he reports Robin Cook, who had gone along to help, finding Blair in awe of the strong support Thatcher was picking up on the back of the war. Richards suggests Blair was hoping to get some of the same for himself.
    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?
    My wife and I visited the Falklands as part of our Antarctica and South Georgia expedition cruise and they are bleak and cold, but fascinating wildlife with penguins, albatrosses, and whales, dolphins and seals
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,773
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    I was weirdly thinking about this whilst watching a plane come into land the other evening and wondered (ok was very drunk) if it’s not aliens but actually time travellers….

    So I thought - what if someone from medieval times somehow saw a plane fly overhead at night - they see something flying with lights coming from it’s eyes and a big roaring sound - it’s clearly a dragon because what else can it be.

    So then I thought what if some people in the future have perfected time travel and every unexplained phenomenon from dragons to UFOs are just the future people in their time machines coming back in time to see things from the past.

    They can’t interact as it will affect their futures and risk their existence so they visit and watch things they want to see and then buzz back to the future before they change the future.

    As I said, I was very drunk, but as sensible an explanation as any other!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    But it wouldn't, not without some sort of plot development. Imagine a fcking great Independence Day plainly alien starship came and took up station 2 miles above New York, and then did nothing else. Ever. We'd all be utterly 9/11, death of Di about it for a year or two, and then it would just settle down into just one more fact of life. We want everything to have a narrative, and most things don't. So yeah, aliens but meh.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,087
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    If there really are hyper-advanced extra-terrestrials observing us, then how do we explain the inconclusive evidence that we have seen for their presence? If they weren't bothered about concealing it then one suspects we'd have seen a lot more of them, rather than just these blurry images of indistinct blobs. And if they were bothered about concealing themselves, they'd presumably have the technology to make a better job of it?

    The notion that visiting aliens exist but just so happen always to inhabit this sweet spot of ambiguity, as if they were playing a decades-long practical joke on the human race, seems more than a little fishy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,243
    edited January 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
    Why? Because there are swathes of Trump voters who think the virus is fake. That the vaccine is a conspiracy. That there was no coup attempt. Etc etc. Call them whatever you like, the film ripped the piss out of that entire mindset in the most brutally beautiful way.

    "Don't Look Up" is high satire. Ignore your own senses, we're telling you what is right.
    No, the Trump-voter stuff was lazy, parochial, unfunny, badly written - and contemptibly, foolishly irresponsible in the context of American politics
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    edited January 2022
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    Actually, I'm not sure that is *entirely* true. It may be a kind of selection bias at work

    Dig deeper and some of the most compelling or mysterious "visitations" have happened in Zimbabwe, Iran, Russia, England, and Italy, to name just a few

    On the other hand there is a theory that these craft - whether Chinese or Neptunian - are interested in our technology, nuclear and otherwise, and/or our capacity to misuse this, which is why they turn up in militarily significant but empty places like Nevada

    This is one of the things that makes me think no. If they have mastered interstellar or interdimensional travel why on earth would they find our technology interesting? I mean, I know some think a chimp is incredibly interesting when it uses a twig to tease something out of bark but that's just a little niche for most folk.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    As a long time reader of Fortean times, and interested in the unexplained for forty years, I just don’t see anything in the current UAP stories that hasn’t been there before. MJ12, Roswell, Berwyn, Lakenheath, even Warminster. The stuff available to see is thin gruel indeed, and as ever the ‘better stuff’ has been seen, but not available to the plebs. We are also in an era that astonishing things can be generated by computer.
    I might be very wrong, and would love to see (benign) aliens. But nothing I’ve seen so far suggests I am.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    Not so

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings
  • Scott_xP said:

    Don't get sick...

    Would be quicker for GM to list everywhere that *hasn’t* tonight put non-urgent operations on hold: the answer being Rochdale Infirmary.

    Everywhere else (Christie aside) everything bar Covid, emergency and cancer surgery is now paused👇
    https://twitter.com/helenavesty/status/1478458691527614464

    So what is your answer @Scott_xP - lockdowns ?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
    Why? Because there are swathes of Trump voters who think the virus is fake. That the vaccine is a conspiracy. That there was no coup attempt. Etc etc. Call them whatever you like, the film ripped the piss out of that entire mindset in the most brutally beautiful way.

    "Don't Look Up" is high satire. Ignore your own senses, we're telling you what is right.
    No, the Trump-voter stuff was lazy, parochial, unfunny, badly written - and contemptibly, foolishly irresponsible in the context of American politics
    If you say so. That Trump voters think the vaccine is contaminated and the "fakedemic" a lie is self-evident. That Trump supporting Congressmen are denying there was a coup that forced them to hide in a bunker is self-evident.

    The people in America objecting are the kind of people who have been denying the pandemic etc etc...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
    Why? Because there are swathes of Trump voters who think the virus is fake. That the vaccine is a conspiracy. That there was no coup attempt. Etc etc. Call them whatever you like, the film ripped the piss out of that entire mindset in the most brutally beautiful way.

    "Don't Look Up" is high satire. Ignore your own senses, we're telling you what is right.
    No, the Trump-voter stuff was lazy, parochial, unfunny, badly written - and contemptibly, foolishly irresponsible in the context of American politics
    I didn't think it was that bad. I also thought much of that was targeted at anti-vaxxers, which, in fairness, does not include Trump himself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    stodge said:

    Just popped in with some German polling which as you might imagine hasn't moved much since the election in September.

    The latest INSA poll for Bild (changes from the election):

    SPD: 26.5% (+0.8)
    CDU/CSU: 23% (-1.1)
    Greens: 15.5% (+0.7)
    Alternative for Germany: 11.5% (+1.2)
    Free Democrats: 11% (-0.3)
    LINKE: 6% (+1.1)

    The governing coalition up very slightly suggesting if not a wholesale political honeymoon then a quiet satisfaction with the new SDP-Green-FDP government.

    The rightwing Merz has been elected as CDU leader to replace the Merkel ally Laschet who resigned following the Union defeat. Not much change at present but with the SPD, FDP and Greens all in government if the government becomes unpopular he will have opposition largely to himself bar the extremes of Linke and AfD
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited January 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Don't get sick...

    Would be quicker for GM to list everywhere that *hasn’t* tonight put non-urgent operations on hold: the answer being Rochdale Infirmary.

    Everywhere else (Christie aside) everything bar Covid, emergency and cancer surgery is now paused👇
    https://twitter.com/helenavesty/status/1478458691527614464

    I posted on here last month that the thing that scared the shit out of Boris Johnson and ministers was the NHS keeling over.

    It would be a Black Wednesday meets The Winter of Discontent moment for the Tory party, out of power for a non Scottish generation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    For my two pennth, the best meal I have ever had was at a restaurant that doesn't even have a michelin star. It wasn't cheap, but it certainly isn't the most expensive meal I have had.

    Most of my best meals have been at non-Michelin places

    Random top ten (I could choose eighty more)


    Eating at Marco Pierre White's very first place, in south London (forget where) - before he had a star, wow

    A crab and asparagus dish in a restaurant made from a garage outside Chiang Mai, Thailand

    A beef massaman curry on a beach in Ko Tao, also Thailand

    Eating at the first Barrafina off the Strand

    Osyters and foie gras and gingerbread in some brilliant old school brasserie in Nantes, France

    Dinner by Heston (that has a star or two)

    A steak at G W Bush's favourite steak restaurant in Austin Texas

    Another steak at Cabana Las Lilas in Buenos Aires

    Tiny gnocchi in a private restaurant on a private vineyard on the island of Pantelleria, Italy

    Some sardines, recently, in a scruffy cafe above a fish market in Sagres, Portugal



    How much of this is about company, location, mood, weather, post-coital bliss - rather than food? At least half of it





    I am not sure where to even begin with best food, overall.

    For steak, I do. The Tasting Room in Frederick MD does a filet mignon that is the best I have had anywhere, including the best that Buenos Aires or Texas has to offer.

    For Indian food, sorry to say that my best experience has been neither in India nor in the UK, but in downtown Washington DC. Rasika (chef was in London prior to moving to the US). Their palak chaat is the most delicious single Indian dish I have ever eaten. For Northern Indian, Bukhara in New York used to be the place.

    For the most inventive, surprising and incredible meal I've ever eaten, Contra in lower Manhattan wins: https://contra.nyc It has one star.

    For the single ingredient of a dish, Brian Voltaggio at Volt (now sadly gone) outdid everything else I have ever experienced. He does molecular cuisine, which is not my favorite style. But he made 'caviar' out of virgin olive oil. It was the most intensely pleasurable tasting experience of my life to date.

    I realize this is a very US-centric list. I have had many spectacular meals in France, Italy, the UK, and Switzerland. But none of them truly stand out from the rest.
    I must be incredibly unlucky because 98% of my eating experiences in America are mediocre or worse. And I have been there a LOT, and all over, and in all kinds of joints, from top NYC starred places to innovative California pop-ups to famous BBQ shacks in the Deep South

    The one exception is Louisiana especially New Orleans. The food there is consistently great, and they don't do the off-puttingly enormous servings you commonly get in the USA. How can such a rich country still believe "great food = tons of food"?
    I think we forget how much better food in the UK has got. Because not many pubs can survive as shitty boozers and huge competition in the restaurant sector, "bog standard" offers across the board have got a hell of a lot better in the past 20-30 years. Sure we still have cheap and crap, but that £10 for a main range has got infinity better in lots of places, and many more people are willing to pay for really good stuff (I presume tv chefs lot has helped this).

    Its not that long ago that the Olympic Breakfast at a Little Chef was what people did...now they queue for the overpriced but still better offering from the likes of the Breakfast Club.

    The US its seems to be cheap and shit, middle price range, eat your weight in meat...then the small niche high end.
    WE DEMAND JUBILEE PANCAKES.

    (Which used to be 99p)
    Used to be the one of the highlight of my family holidays to Cornwall as a kid....stopping off at a Little Chef for jubilee pancakes.

    Now I imagine the kids of today in Cornwall are having organic fresh hand crafted crepes with matcha ice cream...
    I'm not sure things have changed that much. When we go to Cornwall we usually have a few meals at the cafe on the cliff top above Treganhawke that does all day breakfasts. Plus a few cream teas, fish and chips and ice creams. The fanciest food is usually consumed at the Eden Project.
    I go to Cornwall all the time and all my extended family live there. You're really not trying very hard. There is fine food in every major town. You can get excellent Indian and Thai everywhere, for a start
    This wasn't intended as a criticism. I live in London so don't go to Cornwall for interesting world cuisine, but things like cream teas and fish and chips on the beach are things we can't get at home and are handy on walks or days on the beach which is what we tend to be doing. We usually go self catering and cook dinner at the chalet anyway, it's more relaxing than eating out with kids. And we don't really visit the major towns either - we always stay in the SE corner so the only close town is across the Tamar in Plymouth which is not especially nice (it is the city of many of my forebears, so I am well disposed to it but it is not an attractive place).
    Fair enough


    I know I am in a TINY minority here, but I love Plymouth. It is an extraordinary city. Extraordinarily hideous in places, but extraordinarily beautiful and historic in others. An amazing topography. Also some good places to eat!
    I have a Plymouth Fine Dining story. On a business trip, having dinner in Spoons. Pissed up blokes a few tables away obviously on a session. Another guy comes in and comes over to tell his friends about his crabbing adventures!

    Yep, you guessed it. Pulls an Asda bag onto the table and removes from it a large crab which proceeds to protest with claws towards crabbing gentleman. At which point bar maiden demands that he leave and take his crab with him.
    Barmaid says: “get out of my pub and take your crabs with you”.

    Thing that stood out for me in that story was that you were ‘dining’ in Wetherspoons.

    Er, why on Earth would you do that?
    Whats wrong with Spoons?
    Tim "Brexit" Martin tops my list
    Honestly doesn't bother me. He's the guy who owns it not the business itself. And there are plenty of other businesses owned by corporate wankers - if we start to boycott them all there won't be much left.
    Mr Martin was particularly vocal at the time of Brexit and I have never darkened his door since.

    Mind you, I have never been that keen on ad-water-and-stir pubs.
    Apart from the dodgy food, and dodgy politics, the reason I'll never set foot in a Wetherspoons again is the way they treated their staff at the start of the pandemic. Even knowing the government was going to hand over furlough money, they still chose to cut staff loose on the basis the government payouts would take "weeks to arrive".

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-wetherspoon-tim-martin-pub-closed-tesco-supermarket-uk-a9420906.html
    I have no issues with Mr Martin's Brexit views (albeit I felt he was often enough wrong on the facts that I'd cringe when he came on TV), but share your views that he didn't behave particularly well to his staff at the beginning of the pandemic.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,243
    edited January 2022
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    Actually, I'm not sure that is *entirely* true. It may be a kind of selection bias at work

    Dig deeper and some of the most compelling or mysterious "visitations" have happened in Zimbabwe, Iran, Russia, England, and Italy, to name just a few

    On the other hand there is a theory that these craft - whether Chinese or Neptunian - are interested in our technology, nuclear and otherwise, and/or our capacity to misuse this, which is why they turn up in militarily significant but empty places like Nevada

    This is one of the things that makes me think no. If they have mastered interstellar or interdimensional travel why on earth would they find our technology interesting? I mean, I know some think a chimp is incredibly interesting when it uses a twig to tease something out of bark but that's just a little niche for most folk.
    Why do I go to a zoo? Why do I love a good aquarium? Why do I find rockpools fascinating, with their tiny fish and anenomes? Why do I love observing the likes of @kinabalu and other lefties, such that I come on here for hours?

    I am "wasting my time" gazing down at infinitely "inferior" forms of life, they shouldn't interest me, but they do, in their tiny pointless struggles and their endless poignant deaths.

    Maybe the aliens look at us in the same way. Perhaps because lower forms of life teach something to the higher forms? I shall continue to engage with @kinabulu with a wry smile at his pitiful flailings, and the sincere hope that his little waving filaments of "thought" can somehow educate me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Cookie said:

    stodge said:


    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?

    I've said this on here before but the Falklands War didn't just save Margaret Thatcher and the Conservatives, it also saved Michael Foot and Labour.

    The conflict preserved the duopoly from the biggest threat it had ever faced. There are plenty who think Thatcher would have been re-elected in 1983 or 1984 - I'm less convinced. She would certainly not have won a 144 seat landslide enabling the radicalism of the second term.

    A stronger Alliance vote would have also weakened Labour further though that might have brought forward (via John Smith perhaps) an earlier return to a more centrist position except that ground would have been occupied by Messrs Owen and Steel (assuming the Alliance wasn't broken on the altar of defence policy).

    Imagine the future - "the Alliance as both Government and Opposition forever".

    Shade Orwellian perhaps?
    My interpretation is that the opinion polls were swinging back to the Tories in the second half of that parliament anyway - the Tories had a spike from the Falklands effect, but this fell back to the trend line before the election.
    What won the Tories a landslide was the unelectability of a far left Labour Party.
    The primary driver of the Tory vote over my lifetime has been the extent to which voters fear Labour.
    Had Dennis Healey been elected Labour leader in 1980 rather than Foot Thatcher would likely still have won but not by a landslide and the SDP would not have been formed
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    edited January 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    What I find curious about aliens is why they send ethereal beings to wibble about galactic peace in the old world, little green men who say bleep to Brazil, and silver suited folk to stick monitoring equipment up American's bottoms.

    I see aliens as a bit like the carving up of Africa between European empires in the late 19th century.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    But it wouldn't, not without some sort of plot development. Imagine a fcking great Independence Day plainly alien starship came and took up station 2 miles above New York, and then did nothing else. Ever. We'd all be utterly 9/11, death of Di about it for a year or two, and then it would just settle down into just one more fact of life. We want everything to have a narrative, and most things don't. So yeah, aliens but meh.
    Sounds a bit District 9.
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    For all its later flaws, the first third of Don’t Look Up is a superb depiction of Normalcy Bias
    I absolutely loved Don't Look Up.

    I had had a few new year eve drinks but I thought was brilliant. Superb performances. Rylance, as the loon silicon valley exec, just incredible.

    The scenes where the two anchors of breakfast TV are just not interested in what the science guy actually has to say are superb. Like sending up the send up that is Apple's 'Morning America'.



    For me it was half-ruined by the unnecessary, tedious, complacent, laboured and unfunny attacks on Trump voters. Crude and boorish. Like Trump himself, ironically

    Which is a shame, because otherwise it was a cracking movie. Great idea, great cast, some great writing (in places)

    And yes Rylance. Eerily good
    The Rylance act was almost uncanny, like he was channelling a bit of the Thomas Cromwell role into the 21st century.
    The incredible and creepy white teeth! Brilliant

    And I loved the running gag about the general who made them pay for free snacks

    Such beautiful, subtle detail, so why the heavy-handed, juvenile "satire" about thick white Trump voters?!

    It was like the movie was written by two different people who never spoke, and a much stupider writer did the Trump bits

    Shame. But it was still highly entertaining
    Why? Because there are swathes of Trump voters who think the virus is fake. That the vaccine is a conspiracy. That there was no coup attempt. Etc etc. Call them whatever you like, the film ripped the piss out of that entire mindset in the most brutally beautiful way.

    "Don't Look Up" is high satire. Ignore your own senses, we're telling you what is right.
    No, the Trump-voter stuff was lazy, parochial, unfunny, badly written - and contemptibly, foolishly irresponsible in the context of American politics
    I didn't think it was that bad. I also thought much of that was targeted at anti-vaxxers, which, in fairness, does not include Trump himself.
    Trump pushed much of the anti-vax stuff. And has so weaponised it that when he says "I got the jab" he gets booed by his own devoted followers.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    I was weirdly thinking about this whilst watching a plane come into land the other evening and wondered (ok was very drunk) if it’s not aliens but actually time travellers….

    So I thought - what if someone from medieval times somehow saw a plane fly overhead at night - they see something flying with lights coming from it’s eyes and a big roaring sound - it’s clearly a dragon because what else can it be.

    So then I thought what if some people in the future have perfected time travel and every unexplained phenomenon from dragons to UFOs are just the future people in their time machines coming back in time to see things from the past.

    They can’t interact as it will affect their futures and risk their existence so they visit and watch things they want to see and then buzz back to the future before they change the future.

    As I said, I was very drunk, but as sensible an explanation as any other!
    Surely time travellers from the future would pick out critical moments of history to visit - crucifixion of Jesus, battle of Waterloo, whatever, and therefore these various events would be replete with sightings, in preference to some desolate farmhouse in South Dakota on another nothin’ happnin’ Thursday?
  • NEW THREAD

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    pigeon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    If there really are hyper-advanced extra-terrestrials observing us, then how do we explain the inconclusive evidence that we have seen for their presence? If they weren't bothered about concealing it then one suspects we'd have seen a lot more of them, rather than just these blurry images of indistinct blobs. And if they were bothered about concealing themselves, they'd presumably have the technology to make a better job of it?

    The notion that visiting aliens exist but just so happen always to inhabit this sweet spot of ambiguity, as if they were playing a decades-long practical joke on the human race, seems more than a little fishy.
    Who said they weren’t fish? Didn’t you see Arrival?

    Ok, squids, but close.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    But it wouldn't, not without some sort of plot development. Imagine a fcking great Independence Day plainly alien starship came and took up station 2 miles above New York, and then did nothing else. Ever. We'd all be utterly 9/11, death of Di about it for a year or two, and then it would just settle down into just one more fact of life. We want everything to have a narrative, and most things don't. So yeah, aliens but meh.
    Sounds a bit like the plot of that superb satire from South Africa, "District 9".

    https://youtu.be/DyLUwOcR5pk
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I see we are back to hysterical conspiracy theories about Xian on here.

    Jesus wept. It’s the Olympics. Move on FFS.

    Look, I know that you are shitting yourself, like Topping and Ian, but I can't help the fact a genuine mystery is unfolding in Xi'an. Which is probably Omicron, but possibly not

    And it's not like this isn't a major news story (whatever the cause) - if they have Omicron and they can't control it - or they need to lockdown large chunks of China to do so - that is going to have serious consequences for the global economy, as supply chains fail, again. So we can't really "move on"
    Two possible scenarios:

    1) The several people trying to reply rationally and calmly to one person's hysterical outpourings are shitting themselves; or
    2) The one person responsible for said hysterical outpouring is shitting himself.

    Tough call. Or are we all projecting.
    You lot always miss the bigger picture. Let’s take the benign version. This is just omicron. That China is taking these steps in Xian indicates they may very likely be prepared to announce a nationwide lockdown before Chinese New Year, given we all probably agree it’s a bugger to contain it once it’s out there.

    What we know of the underlying virulence of omicron says that this might all be unjustified but it’s tricky to say for sure given we haven’t seen it properly in action in a country with no immunity and little in the way of western approved vaccines.

    A Chinese nationwide lockdown most likely causes a global recession this year.

    There are less benign versions of this story than a global recession this year, whether you want to hear them or not.

    Sure, VHF is endemic in Shanxi. But only strains that spread from rodents to humans.
    We shall have to wait and see. But yes I hold my hand up as I for one didn't at first buy into the whole aliens thing and I am ashamed of that.
    Well we still don’t know enough about UAP to equate them with aliens, however much some of us might think the evidence points that way. What almost all of you refused to take on board, now underlined by the new Congressional legislation passed last week (Gillibrand Amendment to the National Defense Authorisation Act), is that the organs of power in the US are taking UAPs very seriously indeed. Even as you lot laugh it all off.
    I think they're taking it seriously because it's a tactical ruse of their own making. We're going to see lots of extraordinary stories as the USA desperately tries to cling on to its world dominance. They're not going to drift into genteel insignificance the way that Britain did.
    That’s quite the conspiracy theory, given the breadth of politicians and military officials across both time and the left-right spectrum that would need to be involved. Could be you’re right of course. Or could be that when such a range of credible figures say there is observed ultra tech in the skies and oceans that’s not theirs and “needs advances in science to identify”, that we should take what they say at face value.

    I don’t follow US politics as closely as some here but can’t be often that an initiative that is apparently opposed by the Executive, passes both houses in such an overwhelming bipartisan fashion.
    I’m much more sympathetic to your position than many on here, as you know, however your argument here doesn’t quite stand. Because ANY explanation for UAP is going to sound outlandish, will give off conspiracy theory vibes, and will encounter Normalcy Bias

    To name the most prominent:

    1. The entire US military has been suffering multiple simultaneous technical glitches and mass hallucinations for decades and no one in power in America realises this

    2. The elite in America have gone collectively and weirdly mad in exactly the same way, across the political spectrum, as they face the superiority of China, or something

    3. The Chinese have developed incredible 30,000mph aircraft, which also go underwater, and they’ve managed to keep this quiet since 1950

    4. We are being visited and observed by non-human technology

    Which is more, or less, likely? They are all extremely difficult to swallow
    "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent" is my position. What are we meant to do about any of this? We are the primitive savages of Apocalypto gazing at the European ship of the line lying off our coast: impossible for us to deduce fron looking at it, what it is or where it comes from,
    So you think it IS aliens?

    I genuinely have no idea. But I find any of the above explanations absolutely fascinating, and the a couple would be the biggest political story of the century, and “it’s aliens” would be the biggest story in history
    Just odd that they keep choosing usually remote parts of the US to make their appearances and that they’ve been doing so, with most supposed sightings subsequently debunked, for seventy years or so
    Actually, I'm not sure that is *entirely* true. It may be a kind of selection bias at work

    Dig deeper and some of the most compelling or mysterious "visitations" have happened in Zimbabwe, Iran, Russia, England, and Italy, to name just a few

    On the other hand there is a theory that these craft - whether Chinese or Neptunian - are interested in our technology, nuclear and otherwise, and/or our capacity to misuse this, which is why they turn up in militarily significant but empty places like Nevada

    This is one of the things that makes me think no. If they have mastered interstellar or interdimensional travel why on earth would they find our technology interesting? I mean, I know some think a chimp is incredibly interesting when it uses a twig to tease something out of bark but that's just a little niche for most folk.
    Why do I go to a zoo? Why do I love a good aquarium? Why do I find rockpools fascinating, with their tiny fish and anenomes? Why do I love observing the likes of @kinabalu and other lefties, such that I come on here for hours?

    I am "wasting my time" gazing down at infinitely "inferior" forms of life, they shouldn't interest me, but they do, in their tiny pointless struggles and their endless poignant deaths.

    Maybe the aliens look at us in the same way. Perhaps because lower forms of life teach something to the higher forms? I shall continue to engage with @kinabulu with a wry smile at his pitiful flailings, and the sincere hope that his little waving filaments of "thought" can somehow educate me
    Those lower forms of life have certainly done some heavy lifting in your case…
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    For my two pennth, the best meal I have ever had was at a restaurant that doesn't even have a michelin star. It wasn't cheap, but it certainly isn't the most expensive meal I have had.

    Most of my best meals have been at non-Michelin places

    Random top ten (I could choose eighty more)


    Eating at Marco Pierre White's very first place, in south London (forget where) - before he had a star, wow

    A crab and asparagus dish in a restaurant made from a garage outside Chiang Mai, Thailand

    A beef massaman curry on a beach in Ko Tao, also Thailand

    Eating at the first Barrafina off the Strand

    Osyters and foie gras and gingerbread in some brilliant old school brasserie in Nantes, France

    Dinner by Heston (that has a star or two)

    A steak at G W Bush's favourite steak restaurant in Austin Texas

    Another steak at Cabana Las Lilas in Buenos Aires

    Tiny gnocchi in a private restaurant on a private vineyard on the island of Pantelleria, Italy

    Some sardines, recently, in a scruffy cafe above a fish market in Sagres, Portugal



    How much of this is about company, location, mood, weather, post-coital bliss - rather than food? At least half of it





    I am not sure where to even begin with best food, overall.

    For steak, I do. The Tasting Room in Frederick MD does a filet mignon that is the best I have had anywhere, including the best that Buenos Aires or Texas has to offer.

    For Indian food, sorry to say that my best experience has been neither in India nor in the UK, but in downtown Washington DC. Rasika (chef was in London prior to moving to the US). Their palak chaat is the most delicious single Indian dish I have ever eaten. For Northern Indian, Bukhara in New York used to be the place.

    For the most inventive, surprising and incredible meal I've ever eaten, Contra in lower Manhattan wins: https://contra.nyc It has one star.

    For the single ingredient of a dish, Brian Voltaggio at Volt (now sadly gone) outdid everything else I have ever experienced. He does molecular cuisine, which is not my favorite style. But he made 'caviar' out of virgin olive oil. It was the most intensely pleasurable tasting experience of my life to date.

    I realize this is a very US-centric list. I have had many spectacular meals in France, Italy, the UK, and Switzerland. But none of them truly stand out from the rest.
    I must be incredibly unlucky because 98% of my eating experiences in America are mediocre or worse. And I have been there a LOT, and all over, and in all kinds of joints, from top NYC starred places to innovative California pop-ups to famous BBQ shacks in the Deep South

    The one exception is Louisiana especially New Orleans. The food there is consistently great, and they don't do the off-puttingly enormous servings you commonly get in the USA. How can such a rich country still believe "great food = tons of food"?
    I think we forget how much better food in the UK has got. Because not many pubs can survive as shitty boozers and huge competition in the restaurant sector, "bog standard" offers across the board have got a hell of a lot better in the past 20-30 years. Sure we still have cheap and crap, but that £10 for a main range has got infinity better in lots of places, and many more people are willing to pay for really good stuff (I presume tv chefs lot has helped this).

    Its not that long ago that the Olympic Breakfast at a Little Chef was what people did...now they queue for the overpriced but still better offering from the likes of the Breakfast Club.

    The US its seems to be cheap and shit, middle price range, eat your weight in meat...then the small niche high end.
    WE DEMAND JUBILEE PANCAKES.

    (Which used to be 99p)
    Used to be the one of the highlight of my family holidays to Cornwall as a kid....stopping off at a Little Chef for jubilee pancakes.

    Now I imagine the kids of today in Cornwall are having organic fresh hand crafted crepes with matcha ice cream...
    I'm not sure things have changed that much. When we go to Cornwall we usually have a few meals at the cafe on the cliff top above Treganhawke that does all day breakfasts. Plus a few cream teas, fish and chips and ice creams. The fanciest food is usually consumed at the Eden Project.
    I go to Cornwall all the time and all my extended family live there. You're really not trying very hard. There is fine food in every major town. You can get excellent Indian and Thai everywhere, for a start
    This wasn't intended as a criticism. I live in London so don't go to Cornwall for interesting world cuisine, but things like cream teas and fish and chips on the beach are things we can't get at home and are handy on walks or days on the beach which is what we tend to be doing. We usually go self catering and cook dinner at the chalet anyway, it's more relaxing than eating out with kids. And we don't really visit the major towns either - we always stay in the SE corner so the only close town is across the Tamar in Plymouth which is not especially nice (it is the city of many of my forebears, so I am well disposed to it but it is not an attractive place).
    Fair enough


    I know I am in a TINY minority here, but I love Plymouth. It is an extraordinary city. Extraordinarily hideous in places, but extraordinarily beautiful and historic in others. An amazing topography. Also some good places to eat!
    I have a Plymouth Fine Dining story. On a business trip, having dinner in Spoons. Pissed up blokes a few tables away obviously on a session. Another guy comes in and comes over to tell his friends about his crabbing adventures!

    Yep, you guessed it. Pulls an Asda bag onto the table and removes from it a large crab which proceeds to protest with claws towards crabbing gentleman. At which point bar maiden demands that he leave and take his crab with him.
    Barmaid says: “get out of my pub and take your crabs with you”.

    Thing that stood out for me in that story was that you were ‘dining’ in Wetherspoons.

    Er, why on Earth would you do that?
    Whats wrong with Spoons?
    Nothing. If you want a simple meal it’s perfectly nice and reasonably cheap. I used to eat in the Liverpool Street station one occasionally.

    People on here are a bunch of snobs
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    On Topic.

    Not according to todays YG

    📊 Do you approve or disapprove of Tony Blair being given a knighthood?

    ✅ Approve: 14%
    ❌ Disapprove: 63%

    Net rating of -49

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 4 Jan 2022

    All this Blair stuff is not good for Starmer I thihk, as I was saying earlier. He's been steadily and implicitly building a rehabilitation of Blair-type politics, and then along comes this to reunite Lefties and Tories against the idea of Blair again.

    However, I don't think it will be much more than temporary - the government's problems and failings are now just much too familiar in the public's imagination.
    Am I wrong in thinking that it was his Iraq policy that made Blair so toxic, and that otherwise he was generally regarded as sort of ok?

    And I am wrong in thinking that the Conservative Party supported that policy wholeheartedly?

    And the LD's opposed it (and that did them no bloody good whatsoever)?
    You're certainly right that the Tories' full-throated support of the Iraq debacle seems to have been almost entirely expunged from the public's memory - or at least that of the rightwing press.

    You never would have guessed from the Daily Mail's hysterical coverage of the Blair honours that many, if not all, Tory backbenchers ( and frontbenchers ) were even more enthusiastic for the war than Campbell and Blair themselves.

    However, it's an excellent way of chipping away at Labour, so the tabloids will apply their usual morality and history-free approach to the particular topic.

    You're also right that Charles Kennedy's intelligent and brave stance has been much too much forgotten. I also personally was much more in sympathy with his LD party than more recent incarnations.
    Robin Cook gave the stand out performance.

    As for the Tories Blair was apparently privately disgusted by IDS's unqualified support and called him "Little Sir Echo." If there was a war crime, given they were allowed a vote, the entire HoC should be in the dock.
    Remarkable that he didn’t see the irony, given his relationship with Bush.
    Good point.

    What I despise him most for is his claim to have said to Bush, about Iraq, "I'm in." Not the sort of thing adults say in real life, but obviously him saying what he wanted George Clooney to say when playing him in his biopic.
    Richards’s book suggests Blair, like Clinton, was focused on what he saw as the critical swing constituency - which at the time was somewhere between Basildon Man and Worcester Woman - and wanted to make sure he didn’t lose support by appearing soft or anti-American on foreign policy.

    He also reminds us that Blair’s first foray into electoral politics was as Labour candidate in the Beaconsfield by-election just after the Falklands War, and he reports Robin Cook, who had gone along to help, finding Blair in awe of the strong support Thatcher was picking up on the back of the war. Richards suggests Blair was hoping to get some of the same for himself.
    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?
    My wife and I visited the Falklands as part of our Antarctica and South Georgia expedition cruise and they are bleak and cold, but fascinating wildlife with penguins, albatrosses, and whales, dolphins and seals
    And a GDP per pop not far behind Norway on the last number I saw :smile:
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,869

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    On Topic.

    Not according to todays YG

    📊 Do you approve or disapprove of Tony Blair being given a knighthood?

    ✅ Approve: 14%
    ❌ Disapprove: 63%

    Net rating of -49

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 4 Jan 2022

    All this Blair stuff is not good for Starmer I thihk, as I was saying earlier. He's been steadily and implicitly building a rehabilitation of Blair-type politics, and then along comes this to reunite Lefties and Tories against the idea of Blair again.

    However, I don't think it will be much more than temporary - the government's problems and failings are now just much too familiar in the public's imagination.
    Am I wrong in thinking that it was his Iraq policy that made Blair so toxic, and that otherwise he was generally regarded as sort of ok?

    And I am wrong in thinking that the Conservative Party supported that policy wholeheartedly?

    And the LD's opposed it (and that did them no bloody good whatsoever)?
    You're certainly right that the Tories' full-throated support of the Iraq debacle seems to have been almost entirely expunged from the public's memory - or at least that of the rightwing press.

    You never would have guessed from the Daily Mail's hysterical coverage of the Blair honours that many, if not all, Tory backbenchers ( and frontbenchers ) were even more enthusiastic for the war than Campbell and Blair themselves.

    However, it's an excellent way of chipping away at Labour, so the tabloids will apply their usual morality and history-free approach to the particular topic.

    You're also right that Charles Kennedy's intelligent and brave stance has been much too much forgotten. I also personally was much more in sympathy with his LD party than more recent incarnations.
    Robin Cook gave the stand out performance.

    As for the Tories Blair was apparently privately disgusted by IDS's unqualified support and called him "Little Sir Echo." If there was a war crime, given they were allowed a vote, the entire HoC should be in the dock.
    Remarkable that he didn’t see the irony, given his relationship with Bush.
    Good point.

    What I despise him most for is his claim to have said to Bush, about Iraq, "I'm in." Not the sort of thing adults say in real life, but obviously him saying what he wanted George Clooney to say when playing him in his biopic.
    Richards’s book suggests Blair, like Clinton, was focused on what he saw as the critical swing constituency - which at the time was somewhere between Basildon Man and Worcester Woman - and wanted to make sure he didn’t lose support by appearing soft or anti-American on foreign policy.

    He also reminds us that Blair’s first foray into electoral politics was as Labour candidate in the Beaconsfield by-election just after the Falklands War, and he reports Robin Cook, who had gone along to help, finding Blair in awe of the strong support Thatcher was picking up on the back of the war. Richards suggests Blair was hoping to get some of the same for himself.
    I think the Falklands War was a disaster for our politics in general. From preventing an SDP victory that would have put Britain on the road to more consensual, Continental-style government and precluded so much polarisation, to fostering some of the delusions that gave us both intimations of Blair's foreign policy, and the neo-imperial delusions of Hard Brexit.

    However, it was concretely a good thing for the Falkland Islanders themselves. They've never wanted to be part of Argentina, and still don't. I'm curious about the Falklands themselves as a culture, climate and location, imagining they're quite cold, but also quite starkly or bleakly beautiful.

    Has anyone from PB been there ?
    My wife and I visited the Falklands as part of our Antarctica and South Georgia expedition cruise and they are bleak and cold, but fascinating wildlife with penguins, albatrosses, and whales, dolphins and seals
    I have always assumed it would be similar to Shetland. Is it?
This discussion has been closed.