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Today’s Times main leader won’t go down well at Number 10 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 23 in General
imageToday’s Times main leader won’t go down well at Number 10 – politicalbetting.com

In its main leader the Times notes that at the CBI conference “Anxious business leaders deserved a serious speech for serious times.” It goes on:

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,975
    Test
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,320
    Unfortunately, the productivity problem is much more profound than simply infrastructure or digital skills. It is cultural. And cultural characteristics are extremely difficult to shift.

    There are of course exceptions, but the general default attitude in most workplaces is to do the absolute bare minimum you can get away with, and even then only when you are directly instructed to do it. Initiative-taking and creative thought is frowned-upon as it disrupts the hierarchy.

    No hierarchy = no England, so I’m not sure where you guys go from here.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited November 23
    If I was Boris I would be pretty worried that there seem to be an emerging alliance of advisers in no.10 and cabinet ministers now working in concert to deliver unfavourable briefings.

    Meanwhile, I see that Frost is also showing signs today of trying to revive the Britannia Unchained agenda , giving signals about a low-tax and low-regulation environment "away from EU rules." The only real mileage this would seem to have would be as a distraction, and the prelude to the now annual and useful christmas dust-up with the EU, because the long-term consequences of the Singapore are now in total conflict with the government's Red Tory rhetoric on spending, wages, equality and much else.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited November 23
    Tthe Singapore "model", that should ofcourse say below.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    edited November 23
    test
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 319
    edited November 23
    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,023
    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    The grandees urged on by TMay, JMajor and those who never voted for BJ in 2019 will be wondering when, I cannot see BJ going into the next GE as Tory leader (and have bet accordingly).... its just a matter of timing, FWIW I think no move before next May (the locals)...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,701
    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236

    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    The grandees urged on by TMay, JMajor and those who never voted for BJ in 2019 will be wondering when, I cannot see BJ going into the next GE as Tory leader (and have bet accordingly).... its just a matter of timing, FWIW I think no move before next May (the locals)...
    You could be right, especially if the locals are bad, but there the forthcoming by-elections. I don't think the Tories will actually lose any of them, but a close run thing in two would increase nervousness.
    Thought the next PMQ's, especially if Starmer stays calm and 'legal professional' and the PM loses it again, could be very wounding.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    ...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236
    MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    Surely that would mean a split?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,832
    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    I hate to be ungracious to a host but there’s quite a bit of revisionism on display here. Were it not for Ruth Davidson’s efforts in Scotland, it’s quite probable that Corbyn would have cobbled together a government in 2017, having earned 42% of the vote in England. Meanwhile Livingstone was such an electoral phenomenon that he won London in direct opposition to the Labour Party. And then there’s the awkward electoral data point (for Boris haters) of the referendum.

    You might not like him and think him a very poor administrator, you might think he’s almost out of political road. But its churlish to belittle his past electoral achievements. Which is precisely why the Tory knifers might be more hesitant than many assume.
  • The fall of Prime Ministers is often slow then very fast. At one point it seemed like May kept surviving defeat after defeat yet then she resigned in the blink of an eye. Cameron just seemed to glide effortlessly through government and then one sunny morning he was gone.

    In hindsight it's easy to see the sequence of a fall like 'Poll tax, Howe, bad leadership campaign, ruthless cabinet'. It's obviously far less clear at the time but perhaps we'll see this one as 'Paterson, HS2, Peppa Pig, Care Act and one other final thing'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    moonshine said:

    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    I hate to be ungracious to a host but there’s quite a bit of revisionism on display here. Were it not for Ruth Davidson’s efforts in Scotland, it’s quite probable that Corbyn would have cobbled together a government in 2017, having earned 42% of the vote in England. Meanwhile Livingstone was such an electoral phenomenon that he won London in direct opposition to the Labour Party. And then there’s the awkward electoral data point (for Boris haters) of the referendum.

    You might not like him and think him a very poor administrator, you might think he’s almost out of political road. But its churlish to belittle his past electoral achievements. Which is precisely why the Tory knifers might be more hesitant than many assume.
    'Think him' a very poor administrator? Who on earth would think he isn't?

    He's a terrible manager and useless at paperwork, as he has proven many times over the years at the Spectator, in London and at the FO.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Typo in the lead
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    IanB2 said:

    Typo in the lead

    It called Johnson the Prime Minister?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Conservative MPs are increasingly worried about Boris Johnson’s competence and drive after he gave a rambling speech to business leaders and was accused of losing his grip over a series of key policies from social care to rail.

    Senior members of his own party said they needed Johnson to get the government back on track after a disastrous two weeks amid dismay about his performance at the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) conference, where he lost his place in his speech for about 20 seconds and diverted into a lengthy tangent about Peppa Pig.

    Nervousness among Tory MPs about No 10 intensified after one Downing Street source told the BBC there was “a lot of concern inside the building about the PM … it’s just not working”, adding that the “cabinet needs to wake up and demand serious changes otherwise it’ll keep getting worse”. Another senior backbencher said Johnson’s CBI speech had been a “mess” while a third Tory MP said: “I thought today’s performance was the most embarrassing by a Conservative prime minister since last week’s PMQs. Someone needs to get a grip. He is losing the confidence of the party.” Another Tory MP referenced the process by which MPs can submit letters of no confidence to the chair of the 1922 Committee, Graham Brady, saying: “It might not only be Father Christmas’ postbag filling up towards the end of the year – Sir Graham Brady could find he needs a bigger one too.”
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 319
    edited November 23
    moonshine said:

    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    I hate to be ungracious to a host but there’s quite a bit of revisionism on display here.
    I have several tory friends in London who, long ago, said what a god-awful mayor Johnson was.

    This isn't revisionism.
  • Stereodog said:

    The fall of Prime Ministers is often slow then very fast. At one point it seemed like May kept surviving defeat after defeat yet then she resigned in the blink of an eye. Cameron just seemed to glide effortlessly through government and then one sunny morning he was gone.

    In hindsight it's easy to see the sequence of a fall like 'Poll tax, Howe, bad leadership campaign, ruthless cabinet'. It's obviously far less clear at the time but perhaps we'll see this one as 'Paterson, HS2, Peppa Pig, Care Act and one other final thing'.

    Indeed.

    Wasn't it 1989 that Maggie saw off the stalking donkey without breaking stride? And a year later, she was gone.

    BoJo will fail and be shrunken, because that's the nature of the job. The only question is when. And that's what's hard to work out.

    If I were an ambitious Conservative, I'd not want to take over yet, because of the grim two years incoming. Falling living standards do cut through. But if BoJo keeps being this visibly terrible, I might have to replan, before he crashes the party brand with me in tow.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 319
    I know this is The Guardian but it's a particularly good and devastating critique of yesterday.

    This does feel a bit like Johnson's P45 Theresa May moment. When a sufficient number of people twig that their leader isn't fit for purpose.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/boris-johnson-makes-pig-ear-winning-the-cbi-back-over
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022
    edited November 23
    Interesting comment on R4 - Patrice Soriot AZ CEO pointed out that AZ COVID vaccine elicits a stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the mRNA jabs - which do better on anti-bodies. Reporting on vaccine effectiveness has focussed on antibodies which provide swift, short term defence against infection, while for long term defence the body relies on T-cells. I wonder if that might be a factor in Europe’s exploding case numbers where anti-AZ hysteria drove down use of AZ. Soroit on R4 before 8.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    Heathener said:

    I know this is The Guardian but it's a particularly good and devastating critique of yesterday.

    This does feel a bit like Johnson's P45 Theresa May moment. When a sufficient number of people twig that their leader isn't fit for purpose.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/boris-johnson-makes-pig-ear-winning-the-cbi-back-over

    Yesterday was a very bad day for the Tories IMO.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,476
    Heathener said:

    I know this is The Guardian but it's a particularly good and devastating critique of yesterday.

    This does feel a bit like Johnson's P45 Theresa May moment. When a sufficient number of people twig that their leader isn't fit for purpose.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/boris-johnson-makes-pig-ear-winning-the-cbi-back-over

    I was about to post it and you beat me to it. For the same reasons you outline. I know it’s the guardian but it is devastating. If Starmer can control the crazy elements and be more pro business and pro levelling up and investing in the regions he has a chance.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Have they been drinking irradiated Kool Aid?

    https://twitter.com/connal99/status/1462786788200792064?s=21
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,282

    Have they been drinking irradiated Kool Aid?

    https://twitter.com/connal99/status/1462786788200792064?s=21

    Normally dafties in Buchanan Street have a mouth accordion and a bit more of an obvious drink issue.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,909
    It's well known that BoJo doesn't prepare well for speeches, and it represents a fundamental lack of respect for the audience. They are not worth the effort. After the CBI disaster, his confidence should have taken a knock.

    But he's never been much cop at giving speeches and he's useless at making it up as he goes along. Most of his words are ... er ... er and he never finishes sentences.

    He's been lucky in his enemies, and if Labour could find someone like Blair again, Boris would disappear fast. But they keep picking quota people. Very worthy at best, but Aunt Sallys for any competent politician to knock over.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,772
    CD13 said:

    It's well known that BoJo doesn't prepare well for speeches, and it represents a fundamental lack of respect for the audience. They are not worth the effort. After the CBI disaster, his confidence should have taken a knock.

    But he's never been much cop at giving speeches and he's useless at making it up as he goes along. Most of his words are ... er ... er and he never finishes sentences.

    He's been lucky in his enemies, and if Labour could find someone like Blair again, Boris would disappear fast. But they keep picking quota people. Very worthy at best, but Aunt Sallys for any competent politician to knock over.

    On the contrary much of Boris’ bumbling is an affectation. It’s literally in the script. It’s prepared for. The trick is not working quite so well. The joke has got a little tired.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, if we assume you're correct, that does then raise the problem of what's beneath the veneer. Which may not necessarily be to the PM's advantage.
  • MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    As I keep pointing out, Labour's only chance to win is if Peppa remains Prime Minister. A new Tory leader sweeping away the corruption and the embarrassment would almost certainly win.

    For me this is not about trying to ramp Labour - it would have the opposite effect.

    As I posted last night this is about people looking at this absurd shambles - which they would scream in rage about were it Ed Milliband or Gordon Brown or God help us Jeremy Corbyn - and saying its alright.

    That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World is alright.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all lusting after his downfall" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236
    edited November 23

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, if we assume you're correct, that does then raise the problem of what's beneath the veneer. Which may not necessarily be to the PM's advantage.

    There was a comment the other day that, sotto voce, he appeared to threaten the Speaker when the latter rebuked him.
    It would be 'interesting' if, for some good reason, Madam Deputy Speaker had to take PMQ's. Johnson isn't good when opposed by a feisty woman.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,282
    edited November 23
    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,772
    For those that haven’t read it…

    https://reaction.life/jeremy-vine-my-boris-story/
  • Interesting stuff from The Nigel this morning, being propositioned by wealthy donors to come back into front-line politics. If he does - and with an ego the size Peppa's monthly child maintenance bill it seems likely - it would really put the shits up the Tories.

    Looks like his true issue is the forrin who keep coming in from Europe on boats. Which is the unsolvable problem currently thanks to government cuts and general incompetence.

    Various ideas about rendering migrants offshore - you'd have to detain them first. And currently these dinghys are largely making it across unimpeded for the people to run off into the countryside. Some may be here to claim asylum, others to a job in the black economy, a small number may be here with darker intentions.

    Unless we can detain them when they land we can't deport them. Same with any other "just drown them" options involving tow-backs. We do not have the resources to patrol that length of coast 247. We could have, but Priti the Vampire won't put the money into the Home Office.

    The Nigel is brilliant at being the siren voice that the Gillian Duffy mindset pay attention to. Combine that with the growing abuse being hurled by Red Wall Tories at their own supporters and I can see REFUK coming back at them.

    For all that HYUFD will channel Ian Paisley and bellow NO NO NO, remember that REFUK are very effective at stopping the Tories winning seats...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,772
    Politics is polarised between those who see Boris is unfit for office and those who are yet to see Boris is unfit for office, Not much debate is possible. The latter remind me of people who still believe wrestling is completely real.

  • Heathener said:

    MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    There's some truth in this but it's about 12 months out of date.

    That Labour became toxic is indisputable. Some of that was to do with Brexit especially in the Red Wall seats. The Remainer Parliament cost Labour dearly.

    However, a lot of it was also down to the vile left-wing nature of Corbyn's unelectable rabble. SKS has done a very good job of steadily rebuilding the brand, showing that he can root out the anti-semites and place Labour back in the centre ground.

    Have Labour moved sufficiently far and fast? I don't know. But I do know that it's inaccurate to state that they "never been able to break much above 35%". In the last 6 opinion polls Labour has polled:

    37
    39
    37
    37
    40

    The only one that had them at 34% also had the Conservatives on 36% and the Greens on 10%.

    I grant you that this is still a far cry from Tony Blair landslide territory but just as the tories are undeniably and indisputably now falling, so Labour is slowly but surely rising.

    Remember too that Labour have more coalition routes to power than the tories, who only have the DUP that Johnson shafted.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
    SKS means that Labour is no longer toxic in the way that they were in 2019. The Tories will also find it difficult to portray them as recklessly high spending after the last two years, however justified the government was (it is not too difficult to come up with a reason why the Conservative high spending was different to what Labour wanted to do, but much harder to put it into a simple sound bite or Facebook ad).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,829
    edited November 23

    MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    As I keep pointing out, Labour's only chance to win is if Peppa remains Prime Minister. A new Tory leader sweeping away the corruption and the embarrassment would almost certainly win.

    For me this is not about trying to ramp Labour - it would have the opposite effect.

    As I posted last night this is about people looking at this absurd shambles - which they would scream in rage about were it Ed Milliband or Gordon Brown or God help us Jeremy Corbyn - and saying its alright.

    That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World is alright.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all lusting after his downfall" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    "Almost Certainly" Klaxon.

    Mr Assumption made an assumption.

    Morning all. :smile:

    I agree for the Tories BJ needs to be kicked out. I am unclear that there is enough time left to repair the damage. Though it depends heavily on the next 6 months of Covid, and how the economy goes.
  • DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
  • MattW said:

    MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    As I keep pointing out, Labour's only chance to win is if Peppa remains Prime Minister. A new Tory leader sweeping away the corruption and the embarrassment would almost certainly win.

    For me this is not about trying to ramp Labour - it would have the opposite effect.

    As I posted last night this is about people looking at this absurd shambles - which they would scream in rage about were it Ed Milliband or Gordon Brown or God help us Jeremy Corbyn - and saying its alright.

    That the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom going to the UN General Assembly, throwing a speech together on the train up there and talking about Kermit the Frog's mistreatment of Miss Piggy is alright. That the same Prime Minister going to the CBI to make vroom vroom noises and hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World is alright.

    Whether it cuts through or not isn't front of mind. Its appalling. Embarrassing. Wrong. Those of us who are paying attention and care about politics - increasingly of all parties - know how profoundly damaging He is.

    So frankly I don't care for the argument that "you're all lusting after his downfall" and "the polls still give him a narrow lead". There can be no defence. No justification. No succour. For Kermit the Frog at the UN and vroom vroom Peppa Pig World at the CBI. For all our sakes it has to stop.
    "Almost Certainly" Klaxon.

    Mr Assumption made an assumption.

    Morning all. :smile:

    I agree for the Tories BJ needs to be kicked out. I am unclear that there is enough time left to repair the damage. Though it depends heavily on the next 6 months of Covid, and how the economy goes.
    Yeah. And? It sounds like its an assumption you agree with.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,946
    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    He needs to get himself a quicker wardrobe person. Even Danny La Rue would struggle
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    edited November 23
    Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting it's time for the Undertaker to take care of the PM's career?
  • Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    I don’t spend a huge amount of time preparing for my lessons these days, but I’ve taught most of them at least thirty times, sometimes nearer fifty. Each speech Boris gives has to be a one off or someone would notice. New teachers normally spend longer preparing their lessons than the lesson will last: a politician preparing for a speech should be taking several multiples of the length of the speech in preparation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,772
    @RochdalePioneers what you might be overlooking is that Boris has a big constituency that like it when he sends up the office of PM and the political establishment that goes along with it.

    Whilst that and the affectation make him doubly unfit for office, the act will still get support. Trump still gets support after an insurrection and advocating injecting bleach, Boris will be supported after PigGate and other nonsense.
  • Jonathan said:

    @RochdalePioneers what you might be overlooking is that Boris has a big constituency that like it when he sends up the office of PM and the political establishment that goes along with it.

    Whilst that and the affectation make him doubly unfit for office, the act will still get support. Trump still gets support after an insurrection and advocating injecting bleach, Boris will be supported after PigGate and other nonsense.

    I agree that he *had* that big constituency. Not sure the same is true now. Not in sufficient numbers to keep them in office.

    And my argument remains. Just because some wazzock cheers on the national leader doing stupid things that make the country an international embarrassment, is that reason to support the leader for those of us with a brain?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,282

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    The proposals on SC mean that people up north who are unlucky to need long term social care will get to keep just over £20K for an inheritance with the tax payer picking up the rest of the bill. Those down south or better off will pay exactly the same amount to their own care (£86k) and may well have more than £20k left. So everyone is treated equally. No one pays more than £86k.

    Dilnot acknowledged it was a substantial improvement on what we have now and that the system will be substantially better funded. His argument is that money paid by the taxpayer, not the recipient, should be set against the £86k on the basis that this will allow those of more moderate means to leave more. I do not accept that bolstering inheritances is a proper use of money taken from those currently earning. Indeed, I have reservations as to whether the government has already gone too far down that road, especially for those better off.

    So the argument of the BBC amounts to 3 propositions:
    (1) putting a cap on what everyone pays is somehow unfair.
    (2) increasing inheritances is somehow more important than funding health care, social care and other public services.
    (3) current wage earners should fund this largesse.

    Its just absurd.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Heathener said:

    MrEd said:

    For those who lust after BJ’s downfall, it’s worth reminding yourself that, despite all the alleged “this is what will finally do him” (sleaze, Dom Cummings etc), Labour has never been able to break much above 35%, which shows little appetite for Labour.

    That’s not just an issue of SKS, it’s the whole Labour brand. To many, including a lot of its former voters, it’s toxic, standing for a lot of the sh1t you see in the US at the moment around cultural issues. No one thinks plenty on the Labour side would not try and import what is happening in the States at the moment into the U.K. and SKS would be too weak to stop them.

    The biggest threat to BJ will come from the inside but I don’t think it will be the Cabinet, it will come from the newly elected MPs who may look to replace him with one of their own.

    There's some truth in this but it's about 12 months out of date.

    That Labour became toxic is indisputable. Some of that was to do with Brexit especially in the Red Wall seats. The Remainer Parliament cost Labour dearly.

    However, a lot of it was also down to the vile left-wing nature of Corbyn's unelectable rabble. SKS has done a very good job of steadily rebuilding the brand, showing that he can root out the anti-semites and place Labour back in the centre ground.

    Have Labour moved sufficiently far and fast? I don't know. But I do know that it's inaccurate to state that they "never been able to break much above 35%". In the last 6 opinion polls Labour has polled:

    37
    39
    37
    37
    40

    The only one that had them at 34% also had the Conservatives on 36% and the Greens on 10%.

    I grant you that this is still a far cry from Tony Blair landslide territory but just as the tories are undeniably and indisputably now falling, so Labour is slowly but surely rising.

    Remember too that Labour have more coalition routes to power than the tories, who only have the DUP that Johnson shafted.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
    SKS means that Labour is no longer toxic in the way that they were in 2019. The Tories will also find it difficult to portray them as recklessly high spending after the last two years, however justified the government was (it is not too difficult to come up with a reason why the Conservative high spending was different to what Labour wanted to do, but much harder to put it into a simple sound bite or Facebook ad).
    SKS is slowly getting things right, and in part that has been via promoting some talent onto the front bench, and having them in roles that suit their skill sets. He doesn't seem afraid of having competent people around him.

    Sure there are disgruntled Corbynites, but they are clearly marginal figures and indeed useful as a foil. The more that the @bigjohnowls of this world rant about SKS the more obvious it is that the Trots and anti-semites have been eclipsed by genuine change.

    I cannot see SKS being deposed before the next election, though six months ago I thought that likely. I am even beginning to think that there is value on him as next PM, albeit atop an unstable minority government. I think too that he could manage that government competently. He is stiff and wooden, but that may not be a fatal flaw. It wasn't for Attlee.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022
    Ros Atkins on Johnson's speech:

    If you’re just getting going, here’s 4 mins on what happened when Boris Johnson spoke to the CBI on Monday. The speech featured some unusual moments. Thanks to everyone who’s already shared this.

    https://twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1463052289636278276?s=20
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,813
    Jonathan said:

    @RochdalePioneers what you might be overlooking is that Boris has a big constituency that like it when he sends up the office of PM and the political establishment that goes along with it.

    Whilst that and the affectation make him doubly unfit for office, the act will still get support. Trump still gets support after an insurrection and advocating injecting bleach, Boris will be supported after PigGate and other nonsense.

    Trump is out of office.
  • Stereodog said:

    The fall of Prime Ministers is often slow then very fast. At one point it seemed like May kept surviving defeat after defeat yet then she resigned in the blink of an eye. Cameron just seemed to glide effortlessly through government and then one sunny morning he was gone.

    In hindsight it's easy to see the sequence of a fall like 'Poll tax, Howe, bad leadership campaign, ruthless cabinet'. It's obviously far less clear at the time but perhaps we'll see this one as 'Paterson, HS2, Peppa Pig, Care Act and one other final thing'.

    May didn't resign "in the blink of an eye".

    She resigned after months of unsustainable pressure but also after leading the Conservative Party to coming in fifth and getting 8.8% in a national election.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    Perhaps the most telling thing about @BorisJohnson's Manic Monday were the words he used during that awkward pause in his speech.

    Instead of telling his audience "I'm sorry, I've lost my place", his instinct was to instead say "forgive me".


    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/social-care-costs-boris-johnson-self-inflicted-wound-1313229
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,813
    CD13 said:

    It's well known that BoJo doesn't prepare well for speeches, and it represents a fundamental lack of respect for the audience. They are not worth the effort. After the CBI disaster, his confidence should have taken a knock.

    But he's never been much cop at giving speeches and he's useless at making it up as he goes along. Most of his words are ... er ... er and he never finishes sentences.

    He's been lucky in his enemies, and if Labour could find someone like Blair again, Boris would disappear fast. But they keep picking quota people. Very worthy at best, but Aunt Sallys for any competent politician to knock over.

    How is Keir a quota person, and is Boris actually knocking him down? Or Rayner for that matter
  • DavidL said:

    Its just absurd.

    Will not work as a defence on red wall doorsteps however much you protest. Nor will people affected by this (not me and thee) be told that actually it is fair because we all pay the same actually.

    Red wall voters aren't stupid.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
  • Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    I don’t spend a huge amount of time preparing for my lessons these days, but I’ve taught most of them at least thirty times, sometimes nearer fifty. Each speech Boris gives has to be a one off or someone would notice. New teachers normally spend longer preparing their lessons than the lesson will last: a politician preparing for a speech should be taking several multiples of the length of the speech in preparation.
    And a real politician will have done the equivalent; lots of boring speeches at off-peak times as junior ministers. Like lessons, that gives them lots of bits that can be tweaked and recycled. That way, even if you have to improvise, you aren't starting from scratch.

    Boris didn't get to the top that way. He has an after dinner turn, which wears thing with repeat performances to a sober audience. And reams of columns, which don't seem to help in the same way.

    He's the bright lazy kid who coasted through school and has gone to Uni and got found out.
  • Interesting stuff from The Nigel this morning, being propositioned by wealthy donors to come back into front-line politics. If he does - and with an ego the size Peppa's monthly child maintenance bill it seems likely - it would really put the shits up the Tories.

    Looks like his true issue is the forrin who keep coming in from Europe on boats. Which is the unsolvable problem currently thanks to government cuts and general incompetence.

    Various ideas about rendering migrants offshore - you'd have to detain them first. And currently these dinghys are largely making it across unimpeded for the people to run off into the countryside. Some may be here to claim asylum, others to a job in the black economy, a small number may be here with darker intentions.

    Unless we can detain them when they land we can't deport them. Same with any other "just drown them" options involving tow-backs. We do not have the resources to patrol that length of coast 247. We could have, but Priti the Vampire won't put the money into the Home Office.

    The Nigel is brilliant at being the siren voice that the Gillian Duffy mindset pay attention to. Combine that with the growing abuse being hurled by Red Wall Tories at their own supporters and I can see REFUK coming back at them.

    For all that HYUFD will channel Ian Paisley and bellow NO NO NO, remember that REFUK are very effective at stopping the Tories winning seats...

    Am I the only one disturbed by the idea of 'rendering migrants'? It sounds like they should be boiled down and turned into glue. For gods sake don't mention that outside of this forum or Patel might start thinking its a good idea!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    rcs1000 said:

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?

    Cos BoZo is as bad at managing staff as he is at managing his personal life
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    The proposals on SC mean that people up north who are unlucky to need long term social care will get to keep just over £20K for an inheritance with the tax payer picking up the rest of the bill. Those down south or better off will pay exactly the same amount to their own care (£86k) and may well have more than £20k left. So everyone is treated equally. No one pays more than £86k.

    I am old enough to remember when the Poll Tax was defended on much the same terms "everyone is treated equally" etc.

    There are two further flaws. The £86 000 cap doesn't include "hotel costs" of around £1000 per calender month, nor does any costs before October 2023, so not even will even the biggest estates benefit before autumn 2025, well after the next election.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,946
    Heathener said:

    I know this is The Guardian but it's a particularly good and devastating critique of yesterday.

    This does feel a bit like Johnson's P45 Theresa May moment. When a sufficient number of people twig that their leader isn't fit for purpose.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/boris-johnson-makes-pig-ear-winning-the-cbi-back-over

    Very good article and great line....

    " He quickly name checked several cars he had road tested before making engine noises. Vroooom vrooom raaaagh raaagh. Or something like that. He looked up, desperate for some laughs. None came. Driving under the influence clearly isn’t that funny."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,282
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    Number 10 certainly seems to lack management or a sense of purpose. Dominic Cummings brought a host of other problems but he knew about consistency of message. Gove is also capable of this but seems to have been eased away from the centre. And what has been left is a void in which chaos swirls.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    moonshine said:

    Heathener said:

    I agree with Mike. Boris Johnson as an alleged winner must be filtered through the lens of who he fought against: two anti-semitic nasty left-wingers. Corbyn was utterly unelectable and Ken Livingstone became increasingly so.

    I am beginning to think Johnson will be forced out by his MPs. The reason is very simple. He's clearly not up to the job.

    Without Brexit and covid, Johnson would probably have been able to wing it for two terms.

    These are serious times with serious issues which require a serious leader. Johnson lacks the capacity to be Prime Minister in such times as these.

    I hate to be ungracious to a host but there’s quite a bit of revisionism on display here. Were it not for Ruth Davidson’s efforts in Scotland, it’s quite probable that Corbyn would have cobbled together a government in 2017, having earned 42% of the vote in England. Meanwhile Livingstone was such an electoral phenomenon that he won London in direct opposition to the Labour Party. And then there’s the awkward electoral data point (for Boris haters) of the referendum.

    You might not like him and think him a very poor administrator, you might think he’s almost out of political road. But its churlish to belittle his past electoral achievements. Which is precisely why the Tory knifers might be more hesitant than many assume.
    While that's true, I think Corbyn got a couple of boosts in 2017 that were one off in nature. Firstly, people thought the Conservatives were going to walk it, and therefore they could vote without consequence for Corbyn. Secondly, this happened at a time when the LibDems were heading for their worst (percentage-wise) performance in the modern-era (worse than 2015), so if you wanted to vote against the Government, you really only had one choice. Thirdly, Corbyn got the votes of Remainers protesting Brexit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    DavidL said:

    Dominic Cummings brought a host of other problems but he knew about consistency of message.

    We are still getting a consistent message.

    "BoZo is a clown, unfit for office..."
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Nick Watt on R4:

    "There is growing unease amongst Conservative MPs across the party that Boris Johnson is losing his grip"

    "What Boris Johnson seems to be doing at the moment is alienating all factions within the Conservative party"

    "Conservative MPs are using some pretty strong language"

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    IanB2 said:

    Nick Watt on R4:

    "There is growing unease amongst Conservative MPs across the party that Boris Johnson is losing his grip"

    "What Boris Johnson seems to be doing at the moment is alienating all factions within the Conservative party"

    "Conservative MPs are using some pretty strong language"

    BoZo has always been useless, he's always been a c*nt.

    What has changed is peoples' willingness to say it
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,888
    IanB2 said:

    Nick Watt on R4:

    "There is growing unease amongst Conservative MPs across the party that Boris Johnson is losing his grip"

    "What Boris Johnson seems to be doing at the moment is alienating all factions within the Conservative party"

    "Conservative MPs are using some pretty strong language"

    Breaking news: employees complain about their boss. More at 9.
  • Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    If he had three events, you have to wonder about his team as well as him.

    The CBI conference isn't quite what it was. But the PM's keynote speech remains an important, widely covered event, and a measure of whether business leaders retain confidence in the Government's economic plan and PM's grasp over it.

    Why wasn't it the only item in the grid, with a day of focus on the economy, supported by the Chancellor, Business Secretary etc?

    It seems to me that it's set on a frenetic, campaign mode. That works a week before a General Election when you're trying to spin a lot of plates and people forgive you if you drop a couple. It just looks chaotic at this point - what is your big theme for the day, and how does it convey a drum beat in the media of a Government with direction, purpose, and ability?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    If people understood the new social care plans they’d be furious. Luckily for the government nobody’s listening. https://twitter.com/robbingham/status/1462911643881549829/photo/1
  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    Can anyone else write a Bozza speech that sounds like Bozza? Danny Baker, perhaps.

    Will Bozza want to admit that someone else can write better than him?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    .

    Rishi's contribution was shuffling the pages before the speech went into the red box.... ;)
  • Interesting stuff from The Nigel this morning, being propositioned by wealthy donors to come back into front-line politics. If he does - and with an ego the size Peppa's monthly child maintenance bill it seems likely - it would really put the shits up the Tories.

    Looks like his true issue is the forrin who keep coming in from Europe on boats. Which is the unsolvable problem currently thanks to government cuts and general incompetence.

    Various ideas about rendering migrants offshore - you'd have to detain them first. And currently these dinghys are largely making it across unimpeded for the people to run off into the countryside. Some may be here to claim asylum, others to a job in the black economy, a small number may be here with darker intentions.

    Unless we can detain them when they land we can't deport them. Same with any other "just drown them" options involving tow-backs. We do not have the resources to patrol that length of coast 247. We could have, but Priti the Vampire won't put the money into the Home Office.

    The Nigel is brilliant at being the siren voice that the Gillian Duffy mindset pay attention to. Combine that with the growing abuse being hurled by Red Wall Tories at their own supporters and I can see REFUK coming back at them.

    For all that HYUFD will channel Ian Paisley and bellow NO NO NO, remember that REFUK are very effective at stopping the Tories winning seats...

    Am I the only one disturbed by the idea of 'rendering migrants'? It sounds like they should be boiled down and turned into glue. For gods sake don't mention that outside of this forum or Patel might start thinking its a good idea!
    There has already been an attempt to create the circumstances to "accidentally" drown them. But if the migrants are to be rendered to Albania or turned into glue or processed into Soylent Green, they have to be detained first.

    For all the whining and bleating by the government on the subject, its is their own basic failure of law and order which is self-evident. We can't catch them because the Navy has been cut, the coast guard has been cut, the Border Force has been cut and the police has been cut.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,023
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    .

    Rishi's contribution was shuffling the pages before the speech went into the red box.... ;)
    and making sure HS2 reached his constituency......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Apparently it's British
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,946
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    The proposals on SC mean that people up north who are unlucky to need long term social care will get to keep just over £20K for an inheritance with the tax payer picking up the rest of the bill. Those down south or better off will pay exactly the same amount to their own care (£86k) and may well have more than £20k left. So everyone is treated equally. No one pays more than £86k.

    Dilnot acknowledged it was a substantial improvement on what we have now and that the system will be substantially better funded. His argument is that money paid by the taxpayer, not the recipient, should be set against the £86k on the basis that this will allow those of more moderate means to leave more. I do not accept that bolstering inheritances is a proper use of money taken from those currently earning. Indeed, I have reservations as to whether the government has already gone too far down that road, especially for those better off.

    So the argument of the BBC amounts to 3 propositions:
    (1) putting a cap on what everyone pays is somehow unfair.
    (2) increasing inheritances is somehow more important than funding health care, social care and other public services.
    (3) current wage earners should fund this largesse.

    Its just absurd.
    You're fighting a rearguard action I'm glad to say.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,813

    IanB2 said:

    Nick Watt on R4:

    "There is growing unease amongst Conservative MPs across the party that Boris Johnson is losing his grip"

    "What Boris Johnson seems to be doing at the moment is alienating all factions within the Conservative party"

    "Conservative MPs are using some pretty strong language"

    Breaking news: employees complain about their boss. More at 9.
    Not his employees, not their boss.

    Do you vote to select who employs you, or have the option of no confidencing them out?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    As an aside, when I saw yesterday's UK Covid numbers I was reminded of @Leon's theory - the moment a country gets cocky about Covid, they get hit by a wave of it.

    Covid spread is all about R. And the more time people spend inside in close proximity to other people, then the more opportunities there are for spread.

    It's about to get *very* cold and the Christmas party season is about to kick off... and families will be getting together (across the age spectrum). People are desperate to have a good time and for a full return to normality - and it doesn't take much for R to move from 1.0 (things are fine) to 1.2 or 1.3 (and things suddenly don't look fine). We're fortunate that we've done the boosters thing, and that it has absolutely run through school kids... but I am still concerned that we might see cases (and hospitalisations) spike.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    Can anyone else write a Bozza speech that sounds like Bozza? Danny Baker, perhaps.

    Will Bozza want to admit that someone else can write better than him?
    Sure.

    Professional speech writers are expert at getting peoples' "voice" right. Now, will it sound quite the same as a BJ original? Nope. But that doesn't matter. Remember Trump was quite happy to do canned speeches on occasion. BJ would be wise to repeat that performance.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,853

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    .

    Rishi's contribution was shuffling the pages before the speech went into the red box.... ;)
    and making sure HS2 reached his constituency......
    Um, HS2 never gets to his constituency - and the locals won't like the impact of rebuilding the station to cope with the extra lines now required.

    As I mentioned on Sunday the ECML improvements identify a 20 minute speed increase from Darlington / Northallerton to London.

    Back in 2017 Network rail identified that when the track is increased to 140 mph, the total time saved will be 5 minutes (that's why spending £xbn doing so was instantly rejected then)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
  • Boris's chaotic speech to the CBI yesterday showed he had learned nothing from the response to his chaotic speech at the Conservative Party conference. That is what ought to concern Tories. This was not a one-off.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564

    Boris's chaotic speech to the CBI yesterday showed he had learned nothing from the response to his chaotic speech at the Conservative Party conference. That is what ought to concern Tories. This was not a one-off.

    Tories needed to overlook a career-long history of such in order to gift him the job in the first place!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    Revealing that @Jeremy_Hunt - the other candidate to be Tory leader - came on to @BBCr4today to pity rather than bury @BorisJohnson. Just in case there's a vacancy one day ?
    https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/1463061819417899008
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,101
    edited November 23
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Apparently it's British
    Only is Hasbro is British?
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    Its owned by Americans...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    As I said above. There was a piece on CNN a month or two back about how the show is apparently giving American children some British English vocabulary.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    My advice to Boris would be to use different colours for consecutive pages, with one theme per page.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,995
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    She would be defunded if she were.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    IanB2 said:

    Tories needed to overlook a career-long history of such in order to gift him the job in the first place!

    They didn't overlook it. They lauded it.
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris's chaotic speech to the CBI yesterday showed he had learned nothing from the response to his chaotic speech at the Conservative Party conference. That is what ought to concern Tories. This was not a one-off.

    Tories needed to overlook a career-long history of such in order to gift him the job in the first place!
    That is why I posted on pb that Boris would not be elected leader. He was clearly unsuitable, and even shared many flaws with the reviled Jeremy Corbyn. I was wrong. As @HYUFD has often reminded us, it was all about, and only about, the opinion polls.
  • IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    As I said above. There was a piece on CNN a month or two back about how the show is apparently giving American children some British English vocabulary.
    Revenge for Sesame Street teaching young Brits to say Zee instead of Zed.
  • IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    As I said above. There was a piece on CNN a month or two back about how the show is apparently giving American children some British English vocabulary.
    Sure - its become very big in America since Hasbro bought it.

    Yesterday Daddy Pig the PM said it was rejected by the BBC (untrue, it was never offered to the BBC) and is pulling in £6bn and counting" for the country. I don't doubt that it has made money. And the production house will still be paid. But since 2019 when it was sold to Hasbro all the cash is going to America.

    As usual with great British ideas, we sell it abroad to make cash now whilst others rake it in long term.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,753
    edited November 23

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Apparently it's British
    Only is Hasbro is British?
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was always the possibility with Johnson that he was simply too lazy to do the job.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/22/johnson-losing-the-confidence-of-tory-party-after-rambling-cbi-speech

    It's interesting that other commentators blamed yesterday on BoZo being too busy

    There is no contradiction.

    BoZo attended 3 events yesterday, but didn't prepare properly for any of them.

    He is doing too much, and too lazy to do any of it well.

    BJ shouldn't have to do too much preparation for these things, which is the bit that is most concerning. He should sit down with a member of the Number 10 communications office a week before for five minutes, and should agree the main points of the speech (pandemic behind us, loosening of restrictions, Brexit done, etc.), and then they go away and write the speech.

    A couple of days before, BJ should read whatever the communications office wrote for his speech, make a few annotations, and then it goes back.

    And that's it,

    And even if BJ is too busy or lazy to do either part one, or part two, the speech should still be written according to the schedule because he has a good Chief of Staff that knows that speeches have to be ready to deliver.

    That this did not happen suggests that the internal workings of Number 10 are not as we would expect. Why is that?
    And written and presented in a way that makes for easy reading. Cameron had his speeches in plastic inners so he couldn't get them out of order. Brown had them in large print for his poor eyesight. Blair had pauses and emphasis annotated.

    Aside from the vroom noise and hand up for Peppa Pig (which is American btw), and the already parodied "forgive me" shuffling, the rest of the speech wasn't much better. Disjointed, read much too fast, not flowing. He was winging it at the Peppa Pig section as well, flipping pages as he started speaking.
    Peppa Pig is not American!
    Its owned by Americans...
    Peppa Pig is owned by the American Hasbro who bought the Canadian firm Entertainment One who bought the British owners of Peppa Pig. This illustrates another problem which is the buying up (and/or selling out) of successful British companies to foreign owners.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbro

    ETA what @RochdalePioneers said more eloquently than me (and he types faster!).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,080

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    Agreed.
    And as for the 'ridiculously partisan' Today program, I note they are still quoting without question the equally ridiculous '£92bn being spent on northern rail infrastructure.'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,080
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    The proposals on SC mean that people up north who are unlucky to need long term social care will get to keep just over £20K for an inheritance with the tax payer picking up the rest of the bill. Those down south or better off will pay exactly the same amount to their own care (£86k) and may well have more than £20k left. So everyone is treated equally. No one pays more than £86k.

    Dilnot acknowledged it was a substantial improvement on what we have now and that the system will be substantially better funded. His argument is that money paid by the taxpayer, not the recipient, should be set against the £86k on the basis that this will allow those of more moderate means to leave more. I do not accept that bolstering inheritances is a proper use of money taken from those currently earning. Indeed, I have reservations as to whether the government has already gone too far down that road, especially for those better off.

    So the argument of the BBC amounts to 3 propositions:
    (1) putting a cap on what everyone pays is somehow unfair.
    (2) increasing inheritances is somehow more important than funding health care, social care and other public services.
    (3) current wage earners should fund this largesse.

    Its just absurd.
    The effect of the policy is to preserve the inheritances of the wealthy, and destroy those of much lesser means.
    The direct opposite of levelling up.
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Didn't see Boris's speech yesterday but if it was half as bad as those on here are saying then his timing was poor. Why didn't he get Rishi to write it for him?

    The government is giving a sense of drift at the moment and this is being seized upon by a hostile media who will never forgive Brexit. Yesterday morning's coverage of the changes to Social Care on the Today program were so ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent but the Minister sent out to battle made few good or obvious points.

    If we take a couple of steps back you find that vaccine boosters are going really well with over 25% of the population over 12 already covered including all of the most vulnerable groups; we find that this country is avoiding both lockdowns and most NPIs whilst much of Europe struggles with yet another wave; we find that next month the economy is very likely to return to its pre-Covid size; we find, for all the rather unnecessary grief and opprobrium that it brought on itself for what is likely to be loose change in the overall scheme of things, we have the largest commitment to rail outside London ever; we have full employment; we have rising wages; we have a government with a comfortable majority able to deliver on its program.

    And yet...the hysteria and resentment takes its toll. Boris needs to be showing some form of grip not acting the clown with an important audience still smarting from the infamous F*** business. He needs to be a bit more careful.

    It was spectacular! It's been reported back from the actual conference hall that the reception was bafflement and anger. Business faces and has faced down serious problems and needs serious engagement. Even if you set aside the stupidity of asking northern business leaders if they have been to Peppa Pig World in Hampshire, its not even relevant today to business. Its American...

    With regards to "ridiculously partisan as to be almost incoherent" can I offer a mirror? Your last paragraph isn't strictly impartial or even true. There is no "largest commitment to rail outside London ever" as most of the IRP was not costed or approved. Go read the document and underline all the times that the "commitment" is subject to a business case and then treasury approval.

    As for the care bill itself, the anger is from people who can add. Up north English red wall voters will lose pretty much their entire assets with this proposal. Down south people will keep substantial amounts of their assets.

    This inherent unfairness is just maths and comparing one to the other. It isn't partisan, and so many of the people complaining loudest are Tory MPs...
    Agreed.
    And as for the 'ridiculously partisan' Today program, I note they are still quoting without question the equally ridiculous '£92bn being spent on northern rail infrastructure.'
    Indeed. It would surely be better for national cohesion if the BBC just broadcast stories comprised entirely of Tory press releases.

    https://youtu.be/RSfLmhdHRoU?t=26
  • Meanwhile in America:-

    Two longtime conservative Fox News commentators have resigned in protest of what they call a pattern of incendiary and fabricated claims by the network's opinion hosts in support of former President Donald Trump.

    In separate interviews with NPR, Stephen Hayes and Jonah Goldberg pointed to a breaking point this month: network star Tucker Carlson's three-part series on the Jan. 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol, which relied on fabrications and conspiracy theories to exonerate the Trump supporters who participated in the attack.

    https://www.npr.org/2021/11/21/1052837157/fox-resignations-tucker-carlson-patriot-purge-documentary
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