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Locking down the unvaccinated? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,561
edited November 2021 in General
imageLocking down the unvaccinated? – politicalbetting.com

I have just picked up this polling by Sanatana ComRes and I find the numbers quite extraordinary. That by a split of 4%% to 32% the pollster found support for an indefinite lockdown for the unvaccinated.

Read the full story here

Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,730
    I am wary about this. Double vaccination may reduce your own risk of hospitalisation and death from Covid.

    However, lateral flow tests are a better means of reduce the spread of cases
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,071
    edited November 2021
    Whether it's a good idea or not I'd think being wary of such an imposition would be the opposite of being a wishy-washy liberal, as OGH suggests, and actually being firmer in liberalism?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    FYI, for over an hour, sinister forces beyond my feeble comprehension kept all PB comments OR ability to comment from my humble pc screen.

    Was this a system-wide problem. OR should I take it personally?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited November 2021
    OT - Clearly the X factor is age NOT partisanship.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,042
    On tonight's vote 19 conservatives voted no and 68 abstained

    Why didn't the opposition win
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,568
    SeaShantyIrish2 said:

    FYI, for over an hour, sinister forces beyond my feeble comprehension kept all PB comments OR ability to comment from my humble pc screen.

    Was this a system-wide problem. OR should I take it personally?

    The last thread was full of similar complaints about the "main" page.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,568
    OT for TSE: Cambridge comprehensively tonked Oxford in University Challenge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,730
    edited November 2021
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    On tonight's vote 19 conservatives voted no and 68 abstained

    Why didn't the opposition win

    As most rebel Conservatives abstained and did not vote against and the government has a majority of 80 and SNP MPs did not all vote against either as it is a measure which affects only England
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    In general I'm a generous naive idealistic soul who supports allowing people the freedom to make their own mistakes and providing the security that society will be there to help them with the consequences of those mistakes. Much less the case with Covid vaccination.

    The main problems with lockdown for the unvaccinated are twofold. I would have to prove to people that I was vaccinated to retain my freedom. In practice it has proved to be a stepping stone to lockdown for everyone. I guess indefinite house arrest without trial is also a repugnant violation of human rights, whatever.

    I once toyed with the idea of providing only basic medical care to the Covid sick who had refused the modern medicine of Covid vaccination. But this has the defect that I might need to prove my vaccination status to receive treatment, and if there was an error with my records it would end badly for me. I don't trust the accuracy of databases for such a situation. I guess it also violates some medical ethics, or something.

    So I am coming round to the view that recusancy fines for those refusing Covid vaccination are the way forward. Logically this is roughly equivalent to the punitive levels of taxation levied on tobacco. Adults are still freely allowed to purchase tobacco, but they have to pay more tax to do so, this tax then being available to the Exchequer to help fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many smokers.

    Those cranks and anti-science conspiracists who want to refuse to have the Covid vaccination can be free to do so, and to live their life as normal, but a recusancy fine would ensure that they make a contribution to the Exchequer to fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many vaccine refuseniks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,602
    One more Covid Wave and Lockdown and I would support this

    Hell, if we had another winter of Lockdown like 2021 I would support jailing the unvaccinated on the Isle of Sheppey, until they get jabbed or die
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,366
    On topic, I agree. Locking down unvaccinated feels, at the moment, like punishment for them more than protection for us. I'd need a lot of persuasion that was wrong... not saying I couldn't ever change my mind, as I worry a lot about vaccination rates being lower than I'd like, but I'm quite a long way from being convinced.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,419
    edited November 2021
    OT, who's doing the briefing against Johnson ? Someone inside the no.10 operation, with maybe cabinet allies too, is talking a lot to the media today.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,946
    WhisperingOracle said:

    OT, who's doing the briefing against Johnson ? Someone inside the no.10 operation, with maybe cabinet allies too, is talking a lot to the media today.

    Playing with fire.

    Boris goes and the Tories will fail to win the next GE imo
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,733
    On topic, the British voters hate freedom. Every single poll or election where this is tested confirms it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,712
    On topic, I think it depends what one means by lockdown. "Forbidden to leave the house" is too drastic, since the disease is relatively rarely carried in the open air. "Forbidden to meet family" also feels too extreme. "Forbidden to enter closed spaces with a crowd of other people", sure - at least for public transport and working or leisure environments.

    Off topic, I'm hearing from Bexley canvassers that response was good this evening, with a number of voters saiyng that they'd (a) not voted Labour because they didn't like Corbyn, and didn't object to Starmer and (b) were now thinking of switching because they didn't like Johnson. All very specific to the three individuals mentioned - not about policy.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    edmundintokyo said:

    On topic, the British voters hate freedom. Every single poll or election where this is tested confirms it.

    Unlimited freedom for everyone isn't possible. Your freedom rightfully ends when it impinges on my freedom. If someone wants the freedom to not get basic health protection then fine, but you don't have the right to endanger my health over it.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Mexicanpete said:

    .**** me!

    Diane Abbott on Newsnight embarrassing herself and the Labour Party with "wave machines". Why is she even on, making Johnson's performance today look like Olivier's Hamlet?

    Bigger question is how an outright racist is allowed to continue in public life at all. Should have been thrown out of Labour a long time ago. It undermines Starmer's stand against all kinds of racism that she is still in the party.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,287
    WhisperingOracle said:

    OT, who's doing the briefing against Johnson ? Someone inside the no.10 operation, with maybe cabinet allies too, is talking a lot to the media today.

    He briefs against his self fair well.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,287
    bigjohnowls said:

    WhisperingOracle said:

    OT, who's doing the briefing against Johnson ? Someone inside the no.10 operation, with maybe cabinet allies too, is talking a lot to the media today.

    Playing with fire.

    Boris goes and the Tories will fail to win the next GE imo
    Yep.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,287
    edited November 2021
    This is seriously good news.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/23/nhs-to-give-therapy-for-depression-before-medication-under-new-guidelines

    Just who is going to deliver this remains unanswered it seems. I am an experienced meditator. And qualified teacher. Teach meditation on the NHS? Does not compute apparently.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,287
    What it will be, if the CBT is any guide, is qualified nurses given a 6 week crash course in meditation and invited to teach it.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,366
    WhisperingOracle said:

    OT, who's doing the briefing against Johnson ? Someone inside the no.10 operation, with maybe cabinet allies too, is talking a lot to the media today.

    There are ALWAYS briefings against the person at the top as there are ALWAYS people with something to gain.

    That's fine... it becomes a problem and breaks into public when the defenders melt away, and unexpected people mumble "yeah, they've got a point". That's what's happening here - it's not irretrievable but is getting tricky.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,405
    On topic - why on earth would we need to lock down the unvaxed in a UK context. The infection rate has been bouncing around the current level for months, and the hospitals can cope. Last winter, when we had similar case rates and 10x the number of admissions, the system nearly fell over, but it's vanishingly unlikely that will happen this year.

    Barring much better vaccines being developed, Covid will be with us forever. Its now an endemic disease, not an epidemic, and there are probably going to be these sort of daily case numbers every winter for the rest of my life.

    The only real danger the unvaxed pose is to themselves, and for those under 50 it's not actually a particularly big risk. The only reason for these sorts of authoritian measures (and the same with Vaxports) is as sticks to beat the unvaxed with to try and make them conform, often for the sake of conforming. And that's just immoral.

    Case in point - I'm not yet double jabbed. I had Covid in September, and was intending to hold the 2nd jab (due around then) off so it acted as a booster. I got a phone call pressurising me to get it booked last week, even when I explained why I hadn't had it yet. I eventually accepted a (rather inconvenient) booking for this Friday, partly because of the pestering, but mostly because I'm worried someone I know will test positive and set the test and trace goons on me - I literally can't afford a week off work at the moment at any price - it would quite possibly destroy my fledgling business.

    If all the compulsory vax stuff accepted proof of recovery as a valid alternative (it gives stronger immunity!) I might believe it was actually about health. As it is, I'm increasingly convinced its about a new and nasty dimension of authoritarianism.


  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Sorry about the technical problems were having earlier
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    MikeSmithson said:

    Sorry about the technical problems were having earlier

    Apology accepted. But really this event is insignificant in comparison with the horrific technical problems this blog has had for years. You have a fundamental flaw built into the entire architecture of the site and it is holding you back.

    Benchmarking is required here. What are the best high-comment blogs in the world? Don’t care about topic or quality of neither blog posts nor thread contributors, nor moderation policy, but purely in terms of an attractive, easy-to-use, technically robust platform, across all types of devices.

    Then just nick their method.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kle4 said:

    Whether it's a good idea or not I'd think being wary of such an imposition would be the opposite of being a wishy-washy liberal, as OGH suggests, and actually being firmer in liberalism?

    Agreed. Being liberal is incredibly difficult in practice. It works against the gut instincts of Homo sapiens. Although liberalism is in the long-term interests of the species, the more bestial part of our brains is always wanting to bash opponents on the head, or allow bullies to continue abusing weaker groups.

    Being liberal has costs. Being illiberal also has costs. Choose!

    It doesn’t help that self-professed “Liberals” are usually shown to be unprincipled, wishy-washy cowards when confronted by seriously difficult real-life choices. See Thorpe, Steel, Rose Garden etc. “Liberal Democrats” is like “the Democratic People's Republic of Korea”, “the Conservative and Unionist Party” and “the Holy Roman Empire”: all blatant misnomers.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,468
    Maybe Spahn is right, nearly everyone in Germany will be vaccinated recovered or dead by the end of winter.

    But why hasn't his government done anything since the pandemic began?

    For example, no attempt has been made to individually contact people and ask them to get vaccinated. I found out that I'm still registered with a GP in England because the NHS asked me twice to get vaccinated earlier in the year before I told them I'm not there. Here nobody has tried. Not my GP, not my health insurance, not national or local authorities who all know who I am and where I live. And until I got my booster shot from my GP yesterday, none of them had any idea whether I am vaccinated or not.

    Germans tell me this is because of "data protection". I don't know if that is true, although data protection is taken very seriously. But at least make some attempt to contact people individually and ask them to get vaccinated. It's less of an infringement of their human rights than other measures being considered now.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    LostPassword said:

    In general I'm a generous naive idealistic soul who supports allowing people the freedom to make their own mistakes and providing the security that society will be there to help them with the consequences of those mistakes. Much less the case with Covid vaccination.

    The main problems with lockdown for the unvaccinated are twofold. I would have to prove to people that I was vaccinated to retain my freedom. In practice it has proved to be a stepping stone to lockdown for everyone. I guess indefinite house arrest without trial is also a repugnant violation of human rights, whatever.

    I once toyed with the idea of providing only basic medical care to the Covid sick who had refused the modern medicine of Covid vaccination. But this has the defect that I might need to prove my vaccination status to receive treatment, and if there was an error with my records it would end badly for me. I don't trust the accuracy of databases for such a situation. I guess it also violates some medical ethics, or something.

    So I am coming round to the view that recusancy fines for those refusing Covid vaccination are the way forward. Logically this is roughly equivalent to the punitive levels of taxation levied on tobacco. Adults are still freely allowed to purchase tobacco, but they have to pay more tax to do so, this tax then being available to the Exchequer to help fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many smokers.

    Those cranks and anti-science conspiracists who want to refuse to have the Covid vaccination can be free to do so, and to live their life as normal, but a recusancy fine would ensure that they make a contribution to the Exchequer to fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many vaccine refuseniks.

    So the state is more important than the individual. Good that we know where we stand.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,600
    Charles said:

    LostPassword said:

    In general I'm a generous naive idealistic soul who supports allowing people the freedom to make their own mistakes and providing the security that society will be there to help them with the consequences of those mistakes. Much less the case with Covid vaccination.

    The main problems with lockdown for the unvaccinated are twofold. I would have to prove to people that I was vaccinated to retain my freedom. In practice it has proved to be a stepping stone to lockdown for everyone. I guess indefinite house arrest without trial is also a repugnant violation of human rights, whatever.

    I once toyed with the idea of providing only basic medical care to the Covid sick who had refused the modern medicine of Covid vaccination. But this has the defect that I might need to prove my vaccination status to receive treatment, and if there was an error with my records it would end badly for me. I don't trust the accuracy of databases for such a situation. I guess it also violates some medical ethics, or something.

    So I am coming round to the view that recusancy fines for those refusing Covid vaccination are the way forward. Logically this is roughly equivalent to the punitive levels of taxation levied on tobacco. Adults are still freely allowed to purchase tobacco, but they have to pay more tax to do so, this tax then being available to the Exchequer to help fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many smokers.

    Those cranks and anti-science conspiracists who want to refuse to have the Covid vaccination can be free to do so, and to live their life as normal, but a recusancy fine would ensure that they make a contribution to the Exchequer to fund the inevitable hospital treatment required by many vaccine refuseniks.

    So the state is more important than the individual. Good that we know where we stand.
    That conclusion does not follow from what I wrote.
This discussion has been closed.