Best Of

I'm not sure why we should spend time and money protecting Israel. What's in it for us? I also don't think that Israel being immune to such attacks is a good thing. Such immunity leads to profoundly immoral results. Look at Gaza. It is probably good that, unlike the last time, the Iron Dome has proven to have a few cracks in it and there are consequences for Israel's actions.

The leadership of Iran are appalling, particularly for Iranians, and I would welcome them gone but I think its generally a matter we should stay out of. There's a lot of things like this. We are not a great power any longer. We need to protect our interests but be much more focused on what those interests are.

There's neither a moral nor a realpolitik reason to support Israel. Israel isn't the good guy requiring protection. It's less important in the region than the collective Arab or Islamic states.

Who is more of a threat to us? Israel, the Arabs, or Iran? I would argue Israel is the least threatening of the three, and Iran the most. The Arabs, at the very least, hold some values which don't necessarily align with those of the west.

At present, I don't think any of them are a threat to us, and we should not get involved for that reason. If there was a compelling moral reason why we should get involved - as there was in 1945 after the Holocaust - that would be different. I was brought up to support Israel for precisely that reason (my mother worked for UNRRA and talked about the death camps) However, that generation is by and large no longer with us, and the current Israeli leadership has IMO forfeited any hereditary right to "support, no matter what".

I'm not suggesting that we should support the vile Hamas. But we aren't compelled to support either side and we shouldn't.

I'm a bit bemused about this aborting vote. It seems to have come out of nowhere.

Maybe I have such severe Trump Derangement Syndrome that I am not properly focussed on UK politics?

It's such a completely stupid thing to do as well, importing a completely toxic argument from the US into our politics. The question has been settled for decades and now it's not. The thought of someone aborting a full term pregnancy is absolutely abhorrent. Functionally there's no difference to between a term pregnancy and a 1 week old baby. I mean our first was born 10 days late and our second was 3 weeks early. It seems completely immoral that fully functioning babies can be killed and it carries no punishment.

I very rarely have opinions on these matters but this feels like end stage liberalism to me, effectively legalising the killing of functional babies is completely wrong and what was previously seen as a workable compromise between traditional views and liberal ones has now been smashed by Labour completely out of nowhere. People who are celebrating this have got something wrong with them in their heads. I can't imagine many things worse than decriminalisation of abortion past 26-30 weeks. Thousands of perfectly healthy and happy babies will be murdered and somehow this is a good thing for society?

There are moments where a person becomes less and less connected to the culture and country they are part of, I think this is one of those moments for me. A society which is happy to kill full term babies is a society that is sick. I'm not religious, I'm in favour of abortion under the previous rules but this is a step too far and the thought that people are celebrating the decision makes me wonder what has become of our culture.

Again - I am utterly bemused. Where did this vote come from? Usually when there is a vote of conscious about a tricky moral issue then we have months of newspaper debate and episodes of Coronation Street exploring the nuances.

This feels like a hijack.

But I confess I really don't know. Maybe I have just not paid attention?

It came from the Carla Foster sentence in June 2023.

It’s such an edge case that really it doesn’t matter as most people will discover they are pregnant well before the time limits and Covid was a significant part to that particular case.

Carla Foster was rightly convinced of an aborant crime. She had been aware of her pregnancy for at least six months when she lied to obtain the abortion of a healthy baby which was easily capable of life outside her womb (it would have barely classed as premature had it been born). If she didn't want it, she could have given it up for adoption - it wasn't like she was even going to have to carry it much longer to get to term.

Her behaviour was morally disgusting, she should be doing ten years for murder, not the trivial 35 days she actually spent behind bars.

The idea we should change the law to allow people to act like her with impunity is simply wicked. And of course, it will mean more callous late term abortions of healthy babies like hers.

(I'm particularly passionate about this as my wife is currently about 24 weeks pregnant. We can see and feel the baby move. I've seen it wiggling around on ultrasound. My sister had one born at the same number of weeks as Carla Foster's baby - I held her, cuddled her, she curled up to sleep in my arms. She's now a precocious little four year old. The idea that my sisters little girl could be murdered for the atrocious crime of being the wrong side of a layer of skin is not modernity, but barbarism.)

I'm a bit bemused about this aborting vote. It seems to have come out of nowhere.

Maybe I have such severe Trump Derangement Syndrome that I am not properly focussed on UK politics?

It's such a completely stupid thing to do as well, importing a completely toxic argument from the US into our politics. The question has been settled for decades and now it's not. The thought of someone aborting a full term pregnancy is absolutely abhorrent. Functionally there's no difference to between a term pregnancy and a 1 week old baby. I mean our first was born 10 days late and our second was 3 weeks early. It seems completely immoral that fully functioning babies can be killed and it carries no punishment.

I very rarely have opinions on these matters but this feels like end stage liberalism to me, effectively legalising the killing of functional babies is completely wrong and what was previously seen as a workable compromise between traditional views and liberal ones has now been smashed by Labour completely out of nowhere. People who are celebrating this have got something wrong with them in their heads. I can't imagine many things worse than decriminalisation of abortion past 26-30 weeks. Thousands of perfectly healthy and happy babies will be murdered and somehow this is a good thing for society?

There are moments where a person becomes less and less connected to the culture and country they are part of, I think this is one of those moments for me. A society which is happy to kill full term babies is a society that is sick. I'm not religious, I'm in favour of abortion under the previous rules but this is a step too far and the thought that people are celebrating the decision makes me wonder what has become of our culture.

Antoniazzi amendment passes easily:

For: 379
Against : 137
Majority: 242

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2le12114j9o

Division list:

https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/2058

Next step, infanticide.

Totally shocking and irresponsible decision, there are sound medical reasons for the abortion limit of 24 weeks. Where was the debate and conversation with the public?

Not really. That term limit still exists I think? Just a woman cannot be prosecuted for terminating her own baby after the limit. I assume medical professionals still can’t perform abortions after that point?

So back street abortions are now allowed but those performed in a proper medical setting aren't.

I'm not sure that's anything to applaud.

So is it back to the old days of a bottle of gin and a knitting needle ?

Is it clear what this means in reality.?

Are our law makers confident that a baby aborted by an amateur will actually be delivered dead? Suppose the child is alive on arrival? Is mother allowed to kill him/her?

Nothing has changed other than the woman herself is no longer committing a criminal offence. Any abortions happening outside the approved channels were illegal and are still illegal.

So this is one of those non-crime crimes. That still leaves open the question of what happens if the late term baby is delivered alive instead of dead. The mother doesn't want the child. Who will take it into care immediately? Is the mother still not committing a crime if she induces death after delivery? How will the remains be dealt with? Does it go into the organic waste recycling bin for collection next week?

If a child is born alive then anyone who kills it is committing murder (including the mother). I am fairly certain that is clear in law.

Also, it is not a non-crime. A person or persons aiding a woman in terminating a pregnancy would presumably still be committing a criminal offence. For example, if a doctor was doing this sort of thing on the side.

I understand that the poor woman has to do this alone. But I don't see how a DIY abortion can be all that safe for her and surely, the later she leaves it the less safe it becomes. But anyone who helps her out is liable to prosecution.

Recipe for disaster, I'd say.

This discussion reminds me of the debates/arguments I had in the early days of my relationship with my now wife. She was at the time fiercely Catholic and anti-abortion.

It’s one of the nastiest political topics out there, I think because both sides seem to feel burning righteousness and anger on behalf of their cause. The right of a woman to have control over her own body and the right of a viable at or near-term baby to the chance of being born seem both to be irreconcilable absolutes. The one crumb of comfort is that we’re talking about something pretty rare in reality.

I think it’s regrettable it’s come up suddenly like this. I’m not entirely sure it needed to be legislated, if what’s really at stake is police over-zealously investigating vulnerable women. Could guidance have achieved this? I think the majority of the population feel the current term limits are about right.

But I also know it’s really none of my business. Because I’m a man, and we don’t have to deal with pregnancy or childbirth or being left carrying the baby of an abusive partner. Unless fathers were to be equally liable to prosecution as accessories in these cases, it remains an issue about women that should be settled by women.

Absurd to think that as a man you don’t deserve an opinion on week 40 abortions.

Yes. It's like saying only the victims of a murderer can have a say on whether the villain is executed

We got over that 500 years ago, with general principles of law. We can take into account - and we should do so - personal feelings, victim statements, human impact - but the whole point of the law is that it raises each case out of the mire of individuated emotions - at least that is its aim

So we all have a say on the death penalty, as a society, and we all have a say on when a fetus becomes human, and has a right to life of its own, whatever the mother may think. And polls show that 99% of Brits think that moment comes well before "full term" - for the very good reason that a baby in utero at 40 weeks is a fully formed human being. This is disgraceful

Antoniazzi amendment passes easily:

For: 379
Against : 137
Majority: 242

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2le12114j9o

Division list:

https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/2058

Next step, infanticide.

Totally shocking and irresponsible decision, there are sound medical reasons for the abortion limit of 24 weeks. Where was the debate and conversation with the public?

Quite

Astonishing the way this has been briskly smuggled past the public. It's such a huge and profound debate, which deserves intense scrutiny, yet suddenly it is rushed into law?

We have become an unserious nation, with comical morality. We can no longer sneer at the Americans, at least they CARE about these fundamental things - eg the rights of the unborn. We just casually toss them in the skip

I despise our political classes, of all stripes. We need rid of them ALL

Get a grip you grumpy old man

You don't think the right to life of a nine month old fetus, entirely viable, waiting to be born, is worthy of debate?


You tiresome little REDACTED

No.

It's not been born and its the woman's body.

Just kill the little fucker.

But he's been posting here for years!

😎

Decriminalising abortion up to birth ought to be enough for any of them.
Kendall, for she is disgusting (and a massive rebellion looms)

There must be quite a few parents of extremely young infants who would wish they could turn the clock back a few days. Why not, what's the difference?

Personally id be moving the latest time to abort a long way towards conception from 24 weeks

Decriminalising full term abortions is grotesque, any MP backing it isn’t fit for office. Agreed that 24 weeks feels too late these days too. Ideally you’d want universal early dna screening and bringing the date back, not moving it forwards (or eliminating it).

Is there some massive clamour amongst the public to hugely liberalise abortion? If so I must have missed it. Why on earth are Labour doing this, "decriminalising" full term abortions by doctors is a shocking change. Was it in the manifesto?

This is a government of cranks, traitors and incompetents, all pushing their own crazy theories

One of the few blessings of being British rather than a Yankee is that we don't have their horrible abortion arguments. This risks importing that toxic debate

Why??

Because a number of women were being prosecuted for procuring abortions for themselves during the pandemic & many female MPs were surprised to discover that abortion is still illegal in the UK & that their right to access abortion at all rested on the figleaf of medical need introduced by the Abortion Act 1967.

The expansion of the right to abortion to full-term abortions is separate to this, but it’s unsurprising that some amongst those that believe that access to abortion is a right take an expansive view of that right & are pushing for that.

What about the rights of a nine month old, fully viable fetus/baby, to live - to stay alive - rather than having its brains sucked out of its skull even as it prepares to enter the world?