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Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.

I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.

Disagree.

Johnson and his team asked the country to make enormous sacrifices that - it was revealed - they themselves were not willing to make.

I disagree with this. For the most part they did make those sacrifices but, as for most people, they bent the rules on occasion. Most people did. Some did not.

The bigger issue was the rules themselves, which were often moronic and not up to date with out knowledge of the virus.

Boris wrote the bloody rules.

The only way you can excuse him for this is if you think/consider that all the actual rules were written by his minders and he was simply relaying stuff to the nation. That he was a messenger.
He was not a messenger.
He was not some prize bull being led as if at a show by a nose ring carefully handled so as to not crash into china pots .
He was the Prime Minister; everyone else could bend or break the rules because they were not the Prime Minister. But when you're at the top of the tree Caesar's wife applies.

I'll add one thing, which I said at the time:

I'm blooming glad that I didn't have any responsibility for the decisions that had to be made during Covid. It was like a wartime situation, with the health and lives of many thousands of civilians in your hands. There were no good decisions to be made, just poor ones, and it was inevitable that the resultant inquiries would be filled with hindsight. The stress levels must have been immense.

Add in the fact he himself had been very ill, and you know what? If it helped reduce the stress, and help them make better decisions, then let them party on.

Starmer, of course, flew *very* close to the wind himself. Unnecessarily. With none of the responsibility.

The incessant vitriol toward Starmer on here is insane.

Do you think that maybe because he was vitriolic about the Tories, set himself up as the paragon of virtue and clean public life whilst suggesting that he was the grown-up in such a pompous and self regarding way that people see him as a huge empty hypocritical ming vase, but a worthless fake ming vase at that?

If he hadn’t been so superior and overly appraising of his own ability then maybe people wouldn’t be enjoying his difficulties quite as much but he set his standards and has utterly failed to reach them.

Starmer wasn’t nearly vitriolic enough about the fraudulent, disastrous, failed Tory regime.

Starmer doesn’t do vitriol, or any kind of interesting rhetoric, that’s part of his issue.

Other than that, top comment.

From left to right, Starmer is derided.

From the left for trans, Gaza, spending, welfare, WFA, sucking up to Trump and the bizarre attacks on a crap Northern Irish band and a bunch of Palestine protestors.

From the middle and the right it’s about being completely run by the courts - he seems to have subcontracted his conscience to the Supreme Court - and loading taxes on employment. Then not finding growth.

Note the dismal showing among Labour Party members. Who are not, generally, glued to GB News.

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.

I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.

Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.

Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.

And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.

Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

*no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

I was being facetious about executing Mandelson; the British Right probably wouldn't go that far. But Mandelson for them is a diabolical figure, who engineered a decade of Tony Blair and brought death into the world, and all our woe, with loss of Eden, till one greater man (Nigel) restore us, and regain the blissful seat.

That really isn't it.

Mandelson is a man who was forced to resign from government twice. Since leaving as an MP, he has developed lots of interesting contacts, and seemingly is a considerably richer man. The PM then brings him back, ignoring all of the above, and it has not ended well.

Mandelson may be seen by many as a diabolical man because he is slightly, if not diabolical, totally unsuited for the role?

You may like Mandelson because of his political skills. That doesn't mean he is a nice, or good, person.

(I am on record on praising his oratorical and poltiical skills.)

I have never met the man, but those I know who have paint a consistent picture.
Consistently Peter Mandelson is a shit.

Sir Kier Starmer must have known Mandelson's reputation, since it is very widely known and even the suggestion that he should go to DC was greeted with howls of protest across the political spectrum- especially, and this is important, from Starmer's own colleagues who also know Peter Mandelson. Despite this, Starmer nevertheless decided to take the risk, on the grounds that Mandelson does have undoubted gifts in schmoozing bigger shits than himself, and the UK, post Brexit, is in something of a diplomatic hole.

However, Starmer knew, he must have known the risk he was taking, yet he did not do the due diligence or if he did he ignored the implications.
That is a clear failure of judgement. If you are going to take the risk of appointing Mandelson, as a minimum you should have a get out clause, and SKS did not. It is not as if the appointment of this notably odious man was uncontroversial- it was widely, rightly condemned, but Starmer stood out to get him and that was a failure of judgement.

I think those calling for Starmer's own head won't get it, but continuing failures will lead to rebellion. Ed Davey has been criticized for his anti Trump stance, but that is certainly where most Labour MPs would be, if they could.

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.