Best Of

Isreal wants a failed state and couldn’t care less if there’s a civil war in Iran .

And if there’s a refugee crisis which spills into Europe the same right wing Trump lapdogs like Farage who supported the war will then use the refugee crisis to hammer the government.

Seems reasonable.

Why should we care if there is a civil war in Iran?

A failed state and civil war would be a huge improvement on the IRGC.

Hopefully liberal Iranians can win the civil war, but it needs to be in Iranian hands.

I have nothing to add to the debate. Except to say that anybody who refers to "men in dresses" should be roundly ignored.

It's a complex debate, but utilising that phrase in it is a pretty good indicator someone is not entering into that debate in a reasonable manner by oversimplifying it.

Fair if people object to the phrase men in dresses. I’d suggest looking upthread to where the insults began - Cyclefree called a terf.
My substantive point remains.What rights have trans men or women lost?

TERF is an abbreviation of trans exclusionary radical feminist. Are you suggesting that the terms "trans exclusionary" don't apply to Cyclcefree's (second wave, i.e. radical feminism). Huge if true.

TERF isn't an insult, it's a descriptor. That you ascribe shame to the word says a great deal about the beliefs commonly associated with it.

A descriptor can be an insult too.

And again no answer to the question. Huge.

To answer your question, according to the latest high court ruling (GLP v EHRC) my partner (deceased) would no longer be allowed to use the female toilets at work, despite being in possession of a cracking pair of double D's and a fabulous C-word (do dm me if you'd like to see a photo of it, though if you really want to see one, just look in the mirror).

She would be forced to out herself as trans to all her co-workers by using gender neutral toilets, dismissed as "office gossip" by the judge in said case, potentially placing her life at risk (I have witnessed violence against trans women). Those are the rights she has lost. Rights she was guaranteed as a woman with a GRC under the GRA (2004) but have been taken away on a technicality.

You do love your insults. I wish you and you partner nothing but joy, genuinely. Finding the right person to be with is brilliant.
You extrapolate an awful lot from them being unable to use toilets that they wish too. If I have it right, using a gender neutral toilet means someone is going to attempt to murder them.

Reminder: She committed suicide. While it's considered unetthical, medically, to ascribe a suicide to a particular reason (and the circumstances leading up to hers were horrible), one does not have a ten year relationship with someone without a certain understanding of the factors that led up to it.

She lived with the kind of transphobic BS I see posted here every day, every day. It costs nothing to treat trans women as women. The kind of language used here, on a daily basis, can cost people their lives.

This is horrible and you have my deepest sympathies, if it helps at all

But @Casino_Royale is right, perhaps this great trauma means you should avoid this subject, if only because debating it must re-open the wound?

But you must do what you must do. And remember everyone on PB will be appalled and saddened by your story, whatever their views on this or that issue

So you're saying a holocaust survivor shouldn't be allowed to talk about antisemitism?

Perhaps Norman Tebbitt shouldn't be allowed to criticise the IRA?

Or - full reductio ad absurdam - person who got a parking ticket shouldn't be allowed to grumble that the current system of restrictions is unfair?

Interesting.

Thanks for the concern trolling, mate.

Perhaps, I have more experience on the subject than most on PB and my contribution in rebutting Cyclefree's transphobic bollox makes me a useful and interesting contributor on the subject?

I have mentioned my partner's death in passing several times on pb over the years, but the fact that I've been politely rebutting Cyclefree's anti trans BS for years and haven't leaned into the "this shit killed the woman I loved" vibe and have been consistently but politely rebutting her shit using logical, reasonable argument should tell you something.

You are trying to get me to shut up by pretending you are concerned about my "great trauma". Classic concern trolling. "Shut up, you're too emotional to talk".

I think the case for trans rights stands by itself, and I've been making it for years now without constantly referencing said trauma.

I'll keep on talking about it for as long as I'm still alive. Because many are not.

You illustrate why I avoid this argument

Believe it or not I have a trans experience very close to me, closer than yours, perhaps, which leads me to feel very very differently to you

Unlike you I do not parade it, indeed I barely mention it. I am therefore tempted to abuse you in the way you have abused me, but I shall not

Have a good day

If you were in a relationship with a trans woman for over a decade, then I will be happy to concede my crown as King of the Trans F****s to you, sir.

The fact that I've several times pointed out my partner is both trans and dead and this is the first time you have noticed it, proves my point.

As it is, I'll simply say that you should look at my original post to which Tubbsy replied to, where I matter of factly pointed out stuff "my partner (deceased) would no longer be allowed to..." to which he tactlessly decided to reply "I wish you and her all the joy in the world" which is why I am upset and have nailed the "my partner is dead post it note" more firmly into people's thick skulls than usual when this debate rears its head on PB.

I don't make an issue out of my partner's death, and haven't, for many years, precisely because a moist "Barty Roberts" like you would accuse me of being "emotional" and "too close to the subject to be objective".

Just stop talking to me about this subject. Thanks

OK dude, sorry - I apologise.

If whatever you have been through with partner/family or suicide or all of the above is remotely comparable to what I've been through, I get you. I took up [deleted I drug reference] again when she died. Took me a while to crawl out of that one.

It stings. Then it gets under your skin. Then it burns. And it keeps burning.

Feel free to DM/reach out to me any time.

Fair play. Apology accepted. My trauma involved a child, let's just say that, and leave it there

In other debates I find you an engaging and open-minded poster, and I am genuinely saddened by your story. It's very sad

Maybe that's why I avoid this debate, on both sides there is great sadnesss, and yet no resolution, no redemption. It also engulfs and maddens lovely smart people - Graham Linehan on X is the classic example. It is a tragedy that a comic writer with his talent and CV will probably end up being remembered as the anti-trans nutter on social media. It's awful

So, peace and love. Maybe @TSE can give us a thread about Scottish subsamples and AV to cleanse the PB palate

Amen mate. Sorry to hear that.

I feel vaguely obliged to give a reply to every Cyclefree header on the subject, but would really rather not - it's not even in my top 10 subjects I want to talk about. Hence why when TSE says anyone is welcome to submit a response as a thread header I think yeah but no. I'll respond to trans threads, but I won't start them.

Peace.

On a more amusing and fruitful note, I have just made a perfectly amazing Salad Nicoise

This is not self praise, merely admiration of the dude who ever invented Salad Nicoise. There is a misconception that it is a summer salad for hot places, but that is so woing. It is ideal as consolation in winter (the umami, the spuds, the anchovies), as a light zzzzip of energy in summer, and it is great as a memory of summer in autumn, It is also extremely healthy and yet tastes as more-ish as the best fish and chips, it has a fast food gastro-vibe

The key is ingredients. You want the best of everything. Ortiz tuna in oil, Ortiz anchovies, Burford's eggs, the finest new potatoes (Jersey?), excellent bread to mop up, kalamata olives, really good capers, fine beans, just make sure everything is good. That means it is not cheap but it is still a world class culinary experience for about £15-20 a salad

Putting potatoes in whilst they are still hot, warm beans and soft boiled eggs at the last minute make sure it’s a perfectly non-summer meal.

I was weirdly going to cook that for some of my family tonight but they pooh-pooed it. Their loss.

Yes exactly! It's weirdly adapted to all seasons. The only difference is that in summer you probably reduce the spuds, a bit

It's also a fascinating example of a classic high quality dish where the "tinned" version of the main ingredient is better than the "real" version

I've had multiple nicoise salads where the chef boasts he uses fresh tuna, not tinned. But no matter how good it is (never that good), tinned is way better. Fresh tuna ruins the dish, weirdly. It dominates and the texture is wrong

Is there any other significant dish where that can be said? Tinned or canned is superior?

Corned beef and onion sandwuch

Not entirely convinced "corned beef and onion sandwich" is a globally iconic dish, but nonetheless I am intrigued. Why does tinned corned beef wim over cold roast beef? And what onions? Pickled? Fried? Raw?

Caramelised id think, maybe red onion. You'd want a sweeter hit against the salt of the CB

Tinned corn beef, horseradish and tomatoes with black pepper is a guilty pleasure.

On a more amusing and fruitful note, I have just made a perfectly amazing Salad Nicoise

This is not self praise, merely admiration of the dude who ever invented Salad Nicoise. There is a misconception that it is a summer salad for hot places, but that is so woing. It is ideal as consolation in winter (the umami, the spuds, the anchovies), as a light zzzzip of energy in summer, and it is great as a memory of summer in autumn, It is also extremely healthy and yet tastes as more-ish as the best fish and chips, it has a fast food gastro-vibe

The key is ingredients. You want the best of everything. Ortiz tuna in oil, Ortiz anchovies, Burford's eggs, the finest new potatoes (Jersey?), excellent bread to mop up, kalamata olives, really good capers, fine beans, just make sure everything is good. That means it is not cheap but it is still a world class culinary experience for about £15-20 a salad

Putting potatoes in whilst they are still hot, warm beans and soft boiled eggs at the last minute make sure it’s a perfectly non-summer meal.

I was weirdly going to cook that for some of my family tonight but they pooh-pooed it. Their loss.

Yes exactly! It's weirdly adapted to all seasons. The only difference is that in summer you probably reduce the spuds, a bit

It's also a fascinating example of a classic high quality dish where the "tinned" version of the main ingredient is better than the "real" version

I've had multiple nicoise salads where the chef boasts he uses fresh tuna, not tinned. But no matter how good it is (never that good), tinned is way better. Fresh tuna ruins the dish, weirdly. It dominates and the texture is wrong

Is there any other significant dish where that can be said? Tinned or canned is superior?

Bean on toast?

On a more amusing and fruitful note, I have just made a perfectly amazing Salad Nicoise

This is not self praise, merely admiration of the dude who ever invented Salad Nicoise. There is a misconception that it is a summer salad for hot places, but that is so woing. It is ideal as consolation in winter (the umami, the spuds, the anchovies), as a light zzzzip of energy in summer, and it is great as a memory of summer in autumn, It is also extremely healthy and yet tastes as more-ish as the best fish and chips, it has a fast food gastro-vibe

The key is ingredients. You want the best of everything. Ortiz tuna in oil, Ortiz anchovies, Burford's eggs, the finest new potatoes (Jersey?), excellent bread to mop up, kalamata olives, really good capers, fine beans, just make sure everything is good. That means it is not cheap but it is still a world class culinary experience for about £15-20 a salad

Putting potatoes in whilst they are still hot, warm beans and soft boiled eggs at the last minute make sure it’s a perfectly non-summer meal.

I was weirdly going to cook that for some of my family tonight but they pooh-pooed it. Their loss.

Yes exactly! It's weirdly adapted to all seasons. The only difference is that in summer you probably reduce the spuds, a bit

It's also a fascinating example of a classic high quality dish where the "tinned" version of the main ingredient is better than the "real" version

I've had multiple nicoise salads where the chef boasts he uses fresh tuna, not tinned. But no matter how good it is (never that good), tinned is way better. Fresh tuna ruins the dish, weirdly. It dominates and the texture is wrong

Is there any other significant dish where that can be said? Tinned or canned is superior?

Bean on toast?

Amazing mid 90s mix on Greatest Hits radio at the moment.

It's had the song I kissed my first girlfriend to, and has essentially the soundtrack to my A-Levels.

Ah, memories. So long ago, and yet so vivid.

That is the real magic of music. It captures a moment in time and allows all the joy, the angst, the pain and the context to come flooding back in a way that nothing else does. This is a weird one but roughly 30 years ago now I had a really bad RTA which I was lucky to survive. When it happened I was listening to Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto in the car and whilst I recovered in hospital I became obsessed. Even now it moves me to tears every time it reaches the crescendo where the two themes finally clash. I remember the pain, the fear and the sheer joy of still being alive. Its a kind of magic.

When people were talking about "The Special Relationship" and it's one-sidedness earlier, it brought to mind what was probably the love of my life. A girl I was completely obsessed with for about a decade who was only mildly interested in me. It's crazy how some people can have such an effect. There are so many songs that remind of the way I felt, but Hard-Fi, not a band I am particularly into, did one called "Hard to Beat" which really encapsulates the feeling of being so breathlessly excited to be with someone. It makes me feel again how I used to on a summer night in South London, striding down the South Bank so eager to meet her

Most are the others are by The Smiths mind you, and AM by Arctic Monkeys

Hoping not "Girlfriend in a Coma"....

"Hand In Glove" mainly, and "RU Mine"

Love is tragedy.
The last person I was with, engaged to (and will almost certainly be the last person I'm ever with in that way) I told her once I'd burn the world down for her. And I would have. Now I wouldn't even burn the toast for her.

On a more amusing and fruitful note, I have just made a perfectly amazing Salad Nicoise

This is not self praise, merely admiration of the dude who ever invented Salad Nicoise. There is a misconception that it is a summer salad for hot places, but that is so woing. It is ideal as consolation in winter (the umami, the spuds, the anchovies), as a light zzzzip of energy in summer, and it is great as a memory of summer in autumn, It is also extremely healthy and yet tastes as more-ish as the best fish and chips, it has a fast food gastro-vibe

The key is ingredients. You want the best of everything. Ortiz tuna in oil, Ortiz anchovies, Burford's eggs, the finest new potatoes (Jersey?), excellent bread to mop up, kalamata olives, really good capers, fine beans, just make sure everything is good. That means it is not cheap but it is still a world class culinary experience for about £15-20 a salad

Putting potatoes in whilst they are still hot, warm beans and soft boiled eggs at the last minute make sure it’s a perfectly non-summer meal.

I was weirdly going to cook that for some of my family tonight but they pooh-pooed it. Their loss.

Yes exactly! It's weirdly adapted to all seasons. The only difference is that in summer you probably reduce the spuds, a bit

It's also a fascinating example of a classic high quality dish where the "tinned" version of the main ingredient is better than the "real" version

I've had multiple nicoise salads where the chef boasts he uses fresh tuna, not tinned. But no matter how good it is (never that good), tinned is way better. Fresh tuna ruins the dish, weirdly. It dominates and the texture is wrong

Is there any other significant dish where that can be said? Tinned or canned is superior?

I have nothing to add to the debate. Except to say that anybody who refers to "men in dresses" should be roundly ignored.

It's a complex debate, but utilising that phrase in it is a pretty good indicator someone is not entering into that debate in a reasonable manner by oversimplifying it.

Fair if people object to the phrase men in dresses. I’d suggest looking upthread to where the insults began - Cyclefree called a terf.
My substantive point remains.What rights have trans men or women lost?

TERF is an abbreviation of trans exclusionary radical feminist. Are you suggesting that the terms "trans exclusionary" don't apply to Cyclcefree's (second wave, i.e. radical feminism). Huge if true.

TERF isn't an insult, it's a descriptor. That you ascribe shame to the word says a great deal about the beliefs commonly associated with it.

A descriptor can be an insult too.

And again no answer to the question. Huge.

To answer your question, according to the latest high court ruling (GLP v EHRC) my partner (deceased) would no longer be allowed to use the female toilets at work, despite being in possession of a cracking pair of double D's and a fabulous C-word (do dm me if you'd like to see a photo of it, though if you really want to see one, just look in the mirror).

She would be forced to out herself as trans to all her co-workers by using gender neutral toilets, dismissed as "office gossip" by the judge in said case, potentially placing her life at risk (I have witnessed violence against trans women). Those are the rights she has lost. Rights she was guaranteed as a woman with a GRC under the GRA (2004) but have been taken away on a technicality.

Your partner never had those rights. The GRA never gave those rights. There is - and never has been - any right, either under domestic law or under the ECHR, to access the loos or changing rooms of the opposite sex. That your partner was misled into believing this is the fault of those who deliberately lied - and continue to lie - about what the law says.

I have some sympathy with those who have undergone full surgical transition (though the vast majority do not and, as the EctHR has made clear - some 17 years go - such surgery cannot be a requirement of recognition or legal rights) and who do not wish to use the places reserved for their sex. But the solution is - and always has been - to make unisex spaces available. Not to deny women their safety, dignity and privacy.

Whatever you choose to believe about your partner - and I fully appreciate your love and concern - the fact is that sex cannot be changed. The strength of your belief, however sincere, does not change reality. And the other reality is that women can tell at a glance who is a a man, even one who has done whatever he can to make himself look like a woman. Why? Because our lives depend on this.

Women's rights to safety, dignity and privacy are not conditional on whether men agree to this. Our rights are not what is left over after men get what they want. We do not have to justify why we say "No" to a man or men in general.

If transidentified men want safe loos, changing rooms, rape shelters, refuges etc then they can do what women did, create them for themselves instead of demanding we give up ours. Or men can learn to be - ah yes - inclusive and kind, so that people like @kyf_100's partner are not put at risk.

Oh - and TERF is another of those words used to insult women to try and get them to shut up. "Witch", "hag", "bitch", "slut", "aggressive" etc etc. It's a very very old story and a very tiresome one. And not one any woman with any sense or self-respect pays the slightest attention to.

And they say I'm the extremist.

Do please explain to me how the GRA (2004) language, "once a full gender recognition certificate is issued to an applicant, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender, so that an applicant who was born a male would, in law, become a woman for all purposes" means that my beloved partner, in possession of both a GRC and a c****, should be excluded from being able to piss in safety and privacy.

Not legal chicanery. Not get out clauses, dispensations, different statutory processes. Do please explain to me, that when a hard right ideologue like Widdecombe believes a trans woman who has gone "the Full Turbotubbs" so to speak and has a functionally identical "Bartholomew Roberts" to a cis woman, should enjoy the same rights as a cis woman, you think that such women are not deserving of the same protection as other women?

I am not the extremist here (as others have noted), with a fairly limited / restrictive view on trans rights according to medical intervention.

You are a trans exclusive radical feminist, and I'm sorry if it insults you to describe you as a trans exclusive radical feminist, but that is what you are.

Functionally identical is a stretch. No transwoman will ever bear a child through said Bartholomew Roberts, for a start. And your point about a certificate is meaningless because they are still male, whatever the paper says. If it said they were a horse would you run them at Cheltenham?

Ah, I see, when a woman is no longer able to produce children through her "Bartholomew Roberts", she is no longer a woman.

Therefore all women who have undergone hysteroectomies are no longer women.

Blessed be the fruit!

Surely the dentition of a "woman" is through biology (ie XX for women and XY for men) ?

Men can identify as women (and women as men) if they want and their personal choices and preference should be respected to some degree but the facts of life and the scientific truths we know, are non-negotiable?

The physical characteristics of women and men are determined by biology. However, to rely on that as the true definition of what it is to be a woman or a man ignores the vast strata of cultural baggage that is attached to gender terms. If we lived in an entirely matriarchal society, would we still have people like Cyclefree arguing that women need to be protected from men?