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I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.

He has no interest in stopping the killing. It doesn't even enter into his mind that it matters if lots of Ukranians, Russians and anyone else dies. He wouldn't even care if lots of Americans died as long as it didn't affect his own prospects, wealth and ego.

This is the lesson that some on here have not yet learnt. Maybe because they don't want to face it. Trump has no interest in helping or protecting Ukraine or Europe. His interests are purely transactional and we don't matter. All these questions about how or whether we will be able to defend against Russia or help Uraine are based on the erroneous assumption that there is a choice, that Trump will be persuaded to change his mind and help in our defence. He won't.

Once you accept that you realise that it is not a quastion of whether we want to rearm and challenge Putin. It is simple fact that we have to. And the best way to ensure my son and daughter don't end up having to fight in Europe is to make sure Putin loses - or at least fails to succeed - in Ukraine.

I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.

He has no interest in stopping the killing. It doesn't even enter into his mind that it matters if lots of Ukranians, Russians and anyone else dies. He wouldn't even care if lots of Americans died as long as it didn't affect his own prospects, wealth and ego.

This is the lesson that some on here have not yet learnt. Maybe because they don't want to face it. Trump has no interest in helping or protecting Ukraine or Europe. His interests are purely transactional and we don't matter. All these questions about how or whether we will be able to defend against Russia or help Uraine are based on the erroneous assumption that there is a choice, that Trump will be persuaded to change his mind and help in our defence. He won't.

Once you accept that you realise that it is not a quastion of whether we want to rearm and challenge Putin. It is simple fact that we have to. And the best way to ensure my son and daughter don't end up having to fight in Europe is to make sure Putin loses - or at least fails to succeed - in Ukraine.

Given what he is doing to USAID and to various programmes domestically, it's very clear Trump has no concern about stopping people from dying. As you say, he is entirely transactional and has no understanding of the US's interests being in any way separate to his own. This is why he cannot see how withdrawing from a leadership role is going to do so much harm to the American economy.

I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.

What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.

Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.

Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.

Eventually, yes.

And that is a legitimate view, if misguided in my mind. It means thousands more deaths of people that are not you or your family but so be it. Trump's is that he wants the killing to stop. With all the compromises that involves. Why is that view so reprehensible.

Because it is not honest. We all want the killings to stop. Signing a peace deal now with no security guarantees is not an end to the killings but a pause to the killings giving Russia time to re-build and consent to start their next expansionist war elsewhere.

It does not stop the killings.

I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.

What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.

Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.

Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.

Eventually, yes.

And that is a legitimate view, if misguided in my mind. It means thousands more deaths of people that are not you or your family but so be it. Trump's is that he wants the killing to stop. With all the compromises that involves. Why is that view so reprehensible.

Donald Trump’s distaste for killing foreigners has been noted as one of his biggest failings by the PB panzer corps (armchair division) many times before. We are in truly dark times when a US President gets queasy about half a million deaths.

Considering he was quite happy to kill several Americans in a failed bid to stay in power, and threaten to lynch his own Vice President, as well as invade multiple random states nearby and ethnically cleanse Gaza, I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning of this post.

I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

• Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
  
• Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
  
• Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
  

What else is there, realistically?

Rope a dope.

Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".

Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.

I don't see why.

Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.

There was a chat on R5L last week, where one of the phone callers said something like: "We cannot fight Russia, as they have such a massive economy and are such a world power". This is utterly bogus, and the interviewer did not pick him up on it.

The "Russia stronk!" myth has been dead for decades, but people still revere its stinking corpse.

I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.

But isn't that what Chamberlain thought he was doing at Munich? Hitler's assurance was not worth the paper it was written on.

Chamberlain sought peace, but simultaneously prepared for war.

Trump isn't fit to lick Chamberlain's boots.

I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
No skin in the game, no say.

All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.

I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.

The last sentence is absolutely key. The US has not funded NATO for the last 80 years out of the goodness of its heart, it's because it has allowed the US to set the rules. That has delivered huge material benefits to the US, far outweighing the costs. On its own, the US is a huge and incredibly wealthy market, but alone it cannot support the ambitions and needs of its commercial and financial sectors. Pax Americana was a boon to them. Pax Europa, if it happens, will inevitably cost them dear.