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FTP...

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.

I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.

Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.

Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.

And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.

Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

*no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties

Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.

He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.

Have we? Not seen that.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/sep/08/boris-johnson-had-dinner-in-lockdown-with-peer-funding-flat-refit-files-suggest

Thin gruel - the baby shower in particular. And doesn't really change what anyone thinks of Johnson.

You don't think Johnson repeatedly breaking his own govt's rules matters, so of course you think it's thin gruel! It certainly doesn't seem like "Johnson tried his best" (your earlier claim) to me.

No, it doesn't change what anyone thinks of Johnson now. Imagine if all this had come out at the time, however! People thought the Sue Gray report was it, but there was all this other stuff going on.

I know one pollster and this has been backed up by others buy when you listen to the focus groups about why the don’t trust politicians there’s two events most of them cite, one is Tony Blair lying about the Iraq war and the second is Boris Johnson breaking his own lockdown rules whilst keeping most of the country under lockdown.

So many people missed the death of loved ones/the funerals of them due to those lockdown regulations, my father’s ex colleagues weren’t even allowed to have Christmas lunch together at the hospital for those reasons.

People don’t forget that.

A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

Is that so ?
It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
.. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..

Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring

I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.

The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?

Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

They were both terrible ideologies.

They were, and indeed still are, both terrible ideologies.

Fascism says it wants to spill blood. Communism says it doesn't want to spill blood... but has often ended up there. That's the difference. I share your criticisms of communism and I think those who support communism should be strongly pressed on what they think was happening in the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Albania etc., but they're not actively calling for violence in quite the same way as fascists.

Fascism wants control. It will spill blood to get that control. Often, the control it wants is outside its borders.

Communism wants control. It will spill blood to get that control. Often, the control it wants is outside its borders.

You articulate the difference between them perfectly.

FTP...

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.

I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.

Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.

Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.

And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.

Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

*no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties

Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.

He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.

Have we? Not seen that.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/sep/08/boris-johnson-had-dinner-in-lockdown-with-peer-funding-flat-refit-files-suggest

Thin gruel - the baby shower in particular. And doesn't really change what anyone thinks of Johnson.

You don't think Johnson repeatedly breaking his own govt's rules matters, so of course you think it's thin gruel! It certainly doesn't seem like "Johnson tried his best" (your earlier claim) to me.

No, it doesn't change what anyone thinks of Johnson now. Imagine if all this had come out at the time, however! People thought the Sue Gray report was it, but there was all this other stuff going on.

I know one pollster and this has been backed up by others buy when you listen to the focus groups about why the don’t trust politicians there’s two events most of them cite, one is Tony Blair lying about the Iraq war and the second is Boris Johnson breaking his own lockdown rules whilst keeping most of the country under lockdown.

So many people missed the death of loved ones/the funerals of them due to those lockdown regulations, my father’s ex colleagues weren’t even allowed to have Christmas lunch together at the hospital for those reasons.

People don’t forget that.

Pa Woolie detests Johnson for it. When Mum died we were allowed 30 at the funeral but the rule of six was in place socially so Mums farewell wake was 6 of us having fish and chips at my family home. He has not and will never forgive Johnson for the parties

"Suzanne Moore
I went for dinner with Peter Mandelson – he’s blind to people of lower status
The way the disgraced ambassador behaved towards the waiting staff spoke volumes about his lust for power" (£)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/16/went-dinner-lord-mandelson-blind-people-lower-status

I find myself warming to Peter Mandelson after reading that.

Do you think it is acceptable to be rude to a waitress? I thought your cocktail waitress headline previously was rather sexist and snobbish. (Yes, I know it is a song.)

Anway, I have just learnt that Robert Redford has died so I am going into mourning.

I am somebody who is always very well mannered.

I have never been rude to staff even on the occasion one of them spilled my food and drink all over me.

Be nice to people and you’ll receive kindness back.

Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?

Silly comment

He should be removed from Labour and the Lords

For what?
Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

This is hysteria.

Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.

What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.

Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend

In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.

There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now

Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.

Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.

I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.

Disagree.

Johnson and his team asked the country to make enormous sacrifices that - it was revealed - they themselves were not willing to make.

Morning all! Look, I like Sir Ed Nice, but he is too nice. We LibDems aren't cutting through because in a time of ragebait media we are trying to politely cough and offer reason.

My colleagues up here are doing a traditional campaign for Holyrood - door knocking and fetes. A few leaflets which aren't punchy enough. And they will struggle to be heard.

I deliberately kept myself off the regional list so that I can do my own thing. As a PPC in a seat where we took 3% of the vote I am going to be loud and outspoken in ways that will alarm the party CEO who sits in our biweekly campaign meetings. I need to be loud and outspoken or we get 3%.

And that's to say nothing of my other social media. You all know about my Tesla channel. I also cohost one called Emergency Podcast (which was being swamped by Tommeh Two-Names supporters yesterday) which primarily clips the show into reels for YT / X / TT. On this I have said things like "Liz Truss was Right", "We need to get shagging and have more babies" and shortly "We need a new EU referendum" (hat-tip to @leon)

So that is the challenge for the party - say stuff. The country is broken at a fundamental level and only reform are talking about it. We Liberals prompted massive reforms a century ago and we can do it again. But we need to not shy away from today's political battle ground which is social media.

Now if you will excuse me for 15 minutes I need to record for X and tear Muskybaby apart for the hard of thinking. I'll be back.

We truly are in strange times:

Labour imploding
Tories imploded but it hasn't yet hit the central nervous system of those who remained to the end
Davey leading the Make A Stand movement with most people still sitting
Reform fighting it out with Tommeh Two-Names for command of "patriots"
Racist hate-filled cockwomble shot dead and the tragedy of his murder somehow wipes clean his life

I have no idea where our politics goes as we move forward, but I am clear that I don't have enough popcorn. Whatever happens I am glad that I will be here for the ride.

Frankly, after Musky Baby's 'intervention' at the weekend, this is where I stand:

I stand for democracy. We have a long-standing and robust democratic process, one which has seen us through many centuries with slow evolution.

Musky Baby does not stand for democracy. What he said was against democracy. And if the Farage Party wins, I expect UK democracy to disappear in the same way that it seems to be disappearing in the USA.