politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The EU referendum: A battle between the social classes
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on the other hand isn't it less reassuring to know that countires with much lower standards can send produce to us anyway and we can't stop themRoger said:I've just received a petition to sign against certain battery farming methods. I therefore decided to check out existing regulations.
It seems that the EU have improved the lot of chickens significantly over the last few years and despite there still being much to do EU regulations are now considered a benchmark for the treatment of chickens.
I'm sure the UK with it's history of animal welfare would have imposed these rules anyway but isn't it comforting to know that this standard of animal welfare is now obligatory on at least 26 other nations many of whom would not have imposed them without EU compulsion and the EU lead is being followed by others.0 -
My guess is that they will pass but it'll be close. The government can afford a small number of rebels and there's always the chance that the DUP can be persuaded to support it - or at least, not oppose.Danny565 said:
Are the boundary changes actually likely to pass?david_herdson said:
I spoke to Philip Davies a little while ago and he confirmed that he would vote against the changes again unless there was a simultaneous reduction in the size of the government. I agree with him on that objective, though not his means for attempting it.rottenborough said:
I don't have huge objection to equalizing size, although I think it a shame that some historical boundaries and links are going to be lost. But why reduce the number of seats? Less MPs means less of a pool of talent for the government.david_herdson said:
You've copied a bad link. The petition is here:Plato_Says said:Election Data
Good lord, more nonsense: Petition to STOP THE BOUNDARY CHANGES from @MomentumNun - https://t.co/7DQhaO6Sip…
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123864
Obviously, equalizing constituency size is undemocratic because it might *help Tories*.
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
Oh, and *fewer*!
There will be some Tory MPs who would lose their seats and thus would be being asked to vote themselves into redundancy, plus apparently some like Philip Davies who oppose it on principle - and we've seen the last few weeks how willing Tory MPs are to rebel if they don't like something.0 -
John O'Farrel:
Dear @realDonaldTrump Here is a graph showing how unsafe the UK is compared to America. Hope this helps. pic.twitter.com/F1SZR7mhm10 -
Yes, we really need to reform this so that it's possible for a Prime Minister to appoint someone from outside parliament without needing to give them a peerage. This would also remove one of the remaining barriers to reforming the House of Lords itself.rcs1000 said:
Although we are unusual in that the executive is picked from the legislature. In the US, congressmen are not cabinet ministers.Pulpstar said:
Plato's point proven in spades.gnorn said:
According to Wikipedia:Plato_Says said:
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
1. National People's Congress (People's Republic of China): 2987 seats.
2. House of Lords (United Kingdom): 822 seats.
3. Supreme People's Assembly (North Korea): 687 seats.
4. House of Commons (United Kingdom): 650 seats.0 -
Mr. Glenn, my concern with any constitutional reform is that I don't trust any of the parties to either be competent enough to do it effectively or fair enough to do it without trying to serve their own vested interest (cf Labour and the Scottish Parliament for a masterclass in buggering it up).0
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The assumption on AB being solidly Tory is seriously out of date.surbiton said:When you see the bar chart above, you are perplexed that how can Tories be 45 - 55 against REMAIN.
But it is often forgotten that a largest percentage of C2D2 [ sic ] are Tories and kippers. The higher rung on the class or income ladder Tories are mostly Europhiles.
Many AB people also support Labour.
Where did the PBTories go wrong ?
A very large number of public sector workers - who tend to support Labour - are AB rated these days.0 -
Loving all the references to pretty girls on #election660
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Mostly too busy these days (I'm just in the midle of translating 45,000 words from Danish on legislation about electronic cigarettes - actually more interesting than you might think as they wrestle with the shortage of evidence) - I dash off a column for Mike when I have a free momen, but it's unpredictable. I hereby donate the subject to you!NickPalmer said:
Nick, you should write it - clearly your idea.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Yes, I agree - it's a point I've made several times. I'd encourage you to write it.
Is that something you can share in due course?
I'm always interested in international views on that market segment.0 -
Thus, one of the effects of reducing the number of MPs is to strengthen the power of the executive; unless, of course, the government decides to reduce the numbers on its pay-roll. Are there any plans for that?rcs1000 said:
Although we are unusual in that the executive is picked from the legislature. In the US, congressmen are not cabinet ministers.Pulpstar said:
Plato's point proven in spades.gnorn said:
According to Wikipedia:Plato_Says said:
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
1. National People's Congress (People's Republic of China): 2987 seats.
2. House of Lords (United Kingdom): 822 seats.
3. Supreme People's Assembly (North Korea): 687 seats.
4. House of Commons (United Kingdom): 650 seats.
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No, but there should be. It'd be easy enough to chop well over the 7% to match the seats being cut from the Commons: just abolish the Scottish and Welsh Offices and subsume them into a perhaps renamed DCLG. What do the Offices do these days other than transfer a grant?SouthamObserver said:
Thus, one of the effects of reducing the number of MPs is to strengthen the power of the executive; unless, of course, the government decides to reduce the numbers on its pay-roll. Are there any plans for that?rcs1000 said:
Although we are unusual in that the executive is picked from the legislature. In the US, congressmen are not cabinet ministers.Pulpstar said:
Plato's point proven in spades.gnorn said:
According to Wikipedia:Plato_Says said:
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
1. National People's Congress (People's Republic of China): 2987 seats.
2. House of Lords (United Kingdom): 822 seats.
3. Supreme People's Assembly (North Korea): 687 seats.
4. House of Commons (United Kingdom): 650 seats.0 -
It's a draft Act transposing the European Tobacco Products Directive and adapting it to fit the special characteristics of electronic cigarettes. I don't think it's confidential since it's already been published in Danish. Essentially they are fairly hardline - they say that as electronic fags contain nicotine, which is known to be dangerous in direct application, as well as other substances, even including things like formaldehyde, it's vital to prevent shoddy products that may leak and more generally unwise to encourage the spread since the effects are not yet fully known.Charles said:
Is that something you can share in due course?
I'm always interested in international views on that market segment.
They therefore plan to ban the use of electronic cigarettes on public transport and places where children are normally present and to require employers and management of public places to have a well-defined public policy on whether and where the cigarettes can be smoked. They are generally opposed to advertising the products. They make various exemptions where people are in effect living on public or corporate property, e.g. the crew on ships or residents in care homes, because they don't feel they can tell people what to do in what is in effect their current home. They want registration of all such products sold and say bluntly that at present all e-cigarettes on sale are unlawful, since they are sold as medications even though they don't fulfil the requirements for medications (clinical trials etc.).0 -
Very true. I know of one area with 3,000 voters which is largely AB, 2/3 detatched houses, at least 1/3 public sector - and votes Lib Dem.... Labour have yet to wake up and stand candidates.Charles said:
The assumption on AB being solidly Tory is seriously out of date.surbiton said:When you see the bar chart above, you are perplexed that how can Tories be 45 - 55 against REMAIN.
But it is often forgotten that a largest percentage of C2D2 [ sic ] are Tories and kippers. The higher rung on the class or income ladder Tories are mostly Europhiles.
Many AB people also support Labour.
Where did the PBTories go wrong ?
A very large number of public sector workers - who tend to support Labour - are AB rated these days.
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Are we unusual? I thought that the great majority of parliamentary systems operated to the same principle? France doesn't, IIRC, but that's the exception rather than the rule.rcs1000 said:
Although we are unusual in that the executive is picked from the legislature. In the US, congressmen are not cabinet ministers.Pulpstar said:
Plato's point proven in spades.gnorn said:
According to Wikipedia:Plato_Says said:
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
1. National People's Congress (People's Republic of China): 2987 seats.
2. House of Lords (United Kingdom): 822 seats.
3. Supreme People's Assembly (North Korea): 687 seats.
4. House of Commons (United Kingdom): 650 seats.0 -
No, that's the point. The existence of EU regulations has forced the other countries to level up. Without the regulations, it would indeed be exactly as you say.Alanbrooke said:
on the other hand isn't it less reassuring to know that countires with much lower standards can send produce to us anyway and we can't stop themRoger said:I've just received a petition to sign against certain battery farming methods. I therefore decided to check out existing regulations.
It seems that the EU have improved the lot of chickens significantly over the last few years and despite there still being much to do EU regulations are now considered a benchmark for the treatment of chickens.
I'm sure the UK with it's history of animal welfare would have imposed these rules anyway but isn't it comforting to know that this standard of animal welfare is now obligatory on at least 26 other nations many of whom would not have imposed them without EU compulsion and the EU lead is being followed by others.
Unfortunately, the British Government is proposing to abolish a range of farm welfare regulations, in favour of self-regulation by farms (who will be expected to comply with European standards, but not subject to regular Government inspection). That is less rigorous that many EU countries, and risks meaning that the reverse of what you describe will happen - depending on how far you trust every farmer to be as rigorous as if he had inspections to worry about.0 -
I'll leave you to your foie gras NickNickPalmer said:
No, that's the point. The existence of EU regulations has forced the other countries to level up. Without the regulations, it would indeed be exactly as you say.Alanbrooke said:
on the other hand isn't it less reassuring to know that countires with much lower standards can send produce to us anyway and we can't stop themRoger said:I've just received a petition to sign against certain battery farming methods. I therefore decided to check out existing regulations.
It seems that the EU have improved the lot of chickens significantly over the last few years and despite there still being much to do EU regulations are now considered a benchmark for the treatment of chickens.
I'm sure the UK with it's history of animal welfare would have imposed these rules anyway but isn't it comforting to know that this standard of animal welfare is now obligatory on at least 26 other nations many of whom would not have imposed them without EU compulsion and the EU lead is being followed by others.
Unfortunately, the British Government is proposing to abolish a range of farm welfare regulations, in favour of self-regulation by farms (who will be expected to comply with European standards, but not subject to regular Government inspection). That is less rigorous that many EU countries, and risks meaning that the reverse of what you describe will happen - depending on how far you trust every farmer to be as rigorous as if he had inspections to worry about.0 -
Afternoon all
I think considering the size of the Commons and the role of MPs has to go hand in hand with the relationship between the national Parliament and the lower tiers of Government. The German Bundestag has 630 members for a population of around 80 million yet the Lander Governments have much more power than our equivalent County and Borough Councils.
I'd support reducing the number of MPs if more power and accountability were devolved to County and Unitary authorities but the proposal on forced Academy conversion suggests the Conservatives were only paying lip service to the idea of devolution and localism.
Surrey has 81 County Councillors for about 1.2 million people but the County Council has very little authority though it has a lot of responsibility. In the key areas of provision (adult and childrens' services) it has to follow central Government diktat. The county gets about half its money from central Government and he who pays the piper calls the tune.0 -
You got to be f##king kidding me...clintonemail.com was the domain they setup for Hiliary to send her emails. Not that it hugely matters given an insecure server, but really, come on guys...What total numpty who wants to keep their email on the down low uses something like that as the domain part. They might as well have used hiliary@NotSecureEmailClinton.com or Hiliary.Clinton@PlzHackMe.comPlato_Says said:The Fix
147!!! https://t.co/9hiKjIhI4m https://t.co/0OhZLynSTK
FBI send in their team
The FBI is now trying to determine whether a crime was committed in the handling of that classified material. It is also examining whether the server was hacked.
One hundred forty-seven FBI agents have been deployed to run down leads, according to a lawmaker briefed by FBI Director James B. Comey. The FBI has accelerated the investigation because officials want to avoid the possibility of announcing any action too close to the election.0 -
Mr. Stodge, an issue with that is the asymmetric and unequal devolution.
Scotland would still have more power, and the English devolution would be fragmented and less significant (because income tax can't be devolved within England).
An English Parliament remains necessary.0 -
That Clinton article reads like the absolutely stereotypical way in which firms get hacked...the only thing missing was clicking on a phishing link or wandering from pc to pc with a usb thumb drive.
“a stand alone PC in the Secretary’s office, connected to the internet (but not through our system)"0 -
Well, Mr Dancer, that starts from the assumption that England is a single monolithic entity which needs to be treated as such. On that basis, yes, an English Parliament would be necessary to set a single tax rate for both East Ham and Penzance because they were identical in every way.....yeah, right.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stodge, an issue with that is the asymmetric and unequal devolution.
Scotland would still have more power, and the English devolution would be fragmented and less significant (because income tax can't be devolved within England).
An English Parliament remains necessary.
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Mr. Stodge, nobody advocated carving Scotland into Lowlands, Highlands and Islands.
Why so many seem to think this as natural and normal for England (whereas Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland all have unified devolutionary bodies) is beyond me.0 -
another numpty not reading it, they are not in charge of anyone, they are there to help if requested by a child, otherwise it means nothing is done.foxinsoxuk said:
State employees in charge of children do not have an impeccable record. Except maybe in Scotland!Freggles said:
Yes, the idea of state employees acting "in loco parentis" runs counter to our culture doesn't it?Scott_P said:
No, it really doesn't, unless you think the SNP can do no wrong.malcolmg said:it sounds reasonable
So, the useful idiots are in support of State Supervision of other people's kids.
Not surprising, but depressing.0 -
John Stevens
What a farce... Belgian police say Faycal Cheffou was not the third airport bomber, the 'man in the hat' and has been released0 -
I see you lied about the statistics based on a sample of 161 people in Scotland re the earlier discussions. Next you will eb telling me there is a Tory surge based on it.CarlottaVance said:John O'Farrel:
Dear @realDonaldTrump Here is a graph showing how unsafe the UK is compared to America. Hope this helps. pic.twitter.com/F1SZR7mhm10 -
If I may be the loyal opposition for a moment, consider the change in population/MP ratio over time:Pulpstar said:Plato's point proven in spades.
* Population of the UK[0] in 1811: 11,970,200[1]
* Population of the UK[0] in 1911: 41,126,000[1]
* Population of the UK[0] in 2011: 63,182,000[2]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 1811: 658[3]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 1911: 670[4]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 2011: 650[5]
* Number of people per MP in 1811: 18192
* Number of people per MP in 1911: 61382
* Number of people per MP in 2011: 97203
As a rule of thumb, a MP in 2011 is coping with 5 times the number of people than in 1811.
So, in order for the same level of representation as in 1811, we should have about 3000 MPs in the HOC. Of that is too rich for your blood, if we had 1000 MPs it would match 1911.
NOTES
====
[0] GB+I for 1811 and 1911, GB+NI for 2011
[1] http://www.populstat.info/Europe/unkingdc.htm
[2] National Archive copy of ONS Excel spreadsheet, see also National Archive copy of ONS Excel spreadsheet
[3] 1812 election and 1807 election
[4] Dec 1910 election
[5] 2010 election0 -
Just for interest, a meme just going round is that in the US, a petition has gained 40k signatures in a week - to be allowed to open carry at the Republican National Convention...http://qz.com/648703/a-petition-to-allow-open-carry-at-the-republican-national-convention-has-over-40000-supporters/0
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I can see the difficulty in proposing it given that point, but I think you are right - there is a lot people expect MPs to do which they have no influence over, and so ends up just extending some matters to no purpose for any of the parties.NickPalmer said:
I'd suggest, though, that MPs should in that case be prohibited from taking up issues for constituents with public authorities (who would be told to send a form letter instructing MPs to tell thier constituents to get in touch directly). The pressure to do that is what makes the job a 70-hour week, which will only get worse with fewer MPs. Plenty of people feel it shouldn't be part of an MP's job (e.g. Eric Forth refused to do it), but in anything like a marginl seat you simply have to because the public expect it and you'll lose if you don't.Pulpstar said:
Plato's point proven in spades.gnorn said:
According to Wikipedia:Plato_Says said:
The Commons is far too big though - what other house of any parliament has so many members, and they all seem to get by.
1. National People's Congress (People's Republic of China): 2987 seats.
2. House of Lords (United Kingdom): 822 seats.
3. Supreme People's Assembly (North Korea): 687 seats.
4. House of Commons (United Kingdom): 650 seats.
It would however mean a distinct reduction in MP contact with constituents, which arguably is the only part of British politics that still commands widespread confidence - most people exempt their local MPs from wider strictures, because "she helped me when I was in trouble".0 -
Animal welfare standards for farm animals are regularaly flouted by other European countries.Roger said:I've just received a petition to sign against certain battery farming methods. I therefore decided to check out existing regulations.
It seems that the EU have improved the lot of chickens significantly over the last few years and despite there still being much to do EU regulations are now considered a benchmark for the treatment of chickens.
I'm sure the UK with it's history of animal welfare would have imposed these rules anyway but isn't it comforting to know that this standard of animal welfare is now obligatory on at least 26 other nations many of whom would not have imposed them without EU compulsion and the EU lead is being followed by others.
I certainly won't eat non-British pork products.0 -
Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.0
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Also, lol at the named person poll. A 181 person unweighted Scottish sub sample. Comical.0
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on the other hand youre comparing population not electors. In 1811 the average MP had 3 constituents and a their pet hamsters to represent given the state of the franchise.viewcode said:
If I may be the loyal opposition for a moment, consider the change in population/MP ratio over time:Pulpstar said:Plato's point proven in spades.
* Population of the UK[0] in 1811: 11,970,200[1]
* Population of the UK[0] in 1911: 41,126,000[1]
* Population of the UK[0] in 2011: 63,182,000[2]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 1811: 658[3]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 1911: 670[4]
* Number of MPs in HoC in 2011: 650[5]
* Number of people per MP in 1811: 18192
* Number of people per MP in 1911: 61382
* Number of people per MP in 2011: 97203
As a rule of thumb, a MP in 2011 is coping with 5 times the number of people than in 1811.
So, in order for the same level of representation as in 1811, we should have about 3000 MPs in the HOC. Of that is too rich for your blood, if we had 1000 MPs it would match 1911.
NOTES
====
[0] GB+I for 1811 and 1911, GB+NI for 2011
[1] http://www.populstat.info/Europe/unkingdc.htm
[2] National Archive copy of ONS Excel spreadsheet, see also National Archive copy of ONS Excel spreadsheet
[3] 1812 election and 1807 election
[4] Dec 1910 election
[5] 2010 election0 -
0
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Mr. Rasputin, if they started getting as banned/frowned upon as proper cigarettes, that may discourage use or make people think they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.0
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Speaking of Election '66 today, I'd guess that was the last election where class was THE factor.Charles said:
The assumption on AB being solidly Tory is seriously out of date.surbiton said:When you see the bar chart above, you are perplexed that how can Tories be 45 - 55 against REMAIN.
But it is often forgotten that a largest percentage of C2D2 [ sic ] are Tories and kippers. The higher rung on the class or income ladder Tories are mostly Europhiles.
Many AB people also support Labour.
Where did the PBTories go wrong ?
A very large number of public sector workers - who tend to support Labour - are AB rated these days.
In '70 you see a surge of regionalist politics in the UK periphery, while in England lots of previously non-Tory areas in the Midlands had the biggest swings to the Conservatives. They say it was the Enoch Powell factor. Immigration plus good public-sector professional jobs equals the weakening (but not decay) of class as vote predictor. Then you have the role of the Liberals and allies, 1974-2015, which is a complex topic.
On the other hand, the traditional sectarian divide was starting to go away, weakening the Conservatives in cities like Liverpool and Glasgow, forever. Then later immigration moved cities even further away from the Tories - replaced in the Conservative coalition by the new suburban areas in previously rural Southeastern counties, most famously Essex - though that outcome would not be made manifest for another two decades.0 -
I don't accept the false choice of the European vs Anglo-Saxon model of British culture / foreign policy, but it's stuff like this that reinforces for me how much narrower the Channel is than the Atlantic.OchEye said:Just for interest, a meme just going round is that in the US, a petition has gained 40k signatures in a week - to be allowed to open carry at the Republican National Convention...http://qz.com/648703/a-petition-to-allow-open-carry-at-the-republican-national-convention-has-over-40000-supporters/
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The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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Dupond et Dupont on the case again....Plato_Says said:John Stevens
What a farce... Belgian police say Faycal Cheffou was not the third airport bomber, the 'man in the hat' and has been released0 -
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers.0 -
That might depend on age category and/or decrease over time though.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers.
The vape alternative needs to be managed carefully - I'm not against doing so, however.0 -
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers.
I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends. 0 -
Everyone who smokes made the move from not smoking to smoking at one stage ...RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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One of Fox jrs housemates at Uni vapes and has never smoked fwiw.RobD said:
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers. I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends. 0 -
#election66
The vox pops in the street are so much more interesting than the talking heads of 'experts' the BBC use these days.
In Glasgow they wanted to bring back the birch for people committing vandalism.0 -
The stars I saw (a couple of years ago) had more than 95% of e-cigarette users being ex-smokersRaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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Not sure why we have an obsession to make everyone live as long as possible, bit of a nanny state if you ask me. If people want to smoke/vape and it harms nobody else then what is the big deal? , people always find some way to die eventually its not as if we are claiming immortality reigns if smoking is abolishedfoxinsoxuk said:
One of Fox jrs housemates at Uni vapes and has never smoked fwiw.RobD said:
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers. I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends.
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Astrology does not help imoCharles said:
The stars I saw (a couple of years ago) had more than 95% of e-cigarette users being ex-smokersRaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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Not really - they are "invincible". Best target markets are new/expectant mothers who are guilty about smoking and repeat giver-uppers who haven't been successfulRobD said:
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers. I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends.
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I suppose the question is whether he/she be smoking now if vapes didn't exist?foxinsoxuk said:
One of Fox jrs housemates at Uni vapes and has never smoked fwiw.RobD said:
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers. I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends. 0 -
Ah, a pre-ex smokerdavid_herdson said:
I suppose the question is whether he/she be smoking now if vapes didn't exist?foxinsoxuk said:
One of Fox jrs housemates at Uni vapes and has never smoked fwiw.RobD said:
The number of ex/quitting smokers only rises with ageHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Speaking as a vaper myself.RaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
I don't know any other vapers that aren't either ex or quitting smokers. I would suggest that the younger demographic are more at risk of fashionable trends. 0 -
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He's not lonely; he has his ego to keep him company.Scott_P said:0
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At the moment the evidence on vaping is as a positive alternative to smoking.
http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_891.pdf
However it doesn't tell us much about:
Non-smoker > Vaper > Smoker
which is harder to measure (evidently something likely to vary by time).
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OhScott_P said:Alistair said:Also, lol at the named person poll. A 181 person unweighted Scottish sub sample. Comical.
A total of 6120 adults, including 532 in Scotland, completed the online survey by ComRes between March 2 and 13.
Ha Ha Ha , read the tables you halfwit , only 181 and only 44 were parents. Thicko.0 -
We do get a laugh at the stupid unionists , they put their foot in their mouth on a regular basis. Scott can only pass on tweets so just perpetuates the lying toerags in the media. Perhaps if the dummy read a few of the articles he might realise what a numpty he is. 44 parents in total, LOL.RobD said:0 -
OhScott_P said:Alistair said:Also, lol at the named person poll. A 181 person unweighted Scottish sub sample. Comical.
A total of 6120 adults, including 532 in Scotland, completed the online survey by ComRes between March 2 and 13.
From the actual ComRes surveyComRes interviewed 2,030 British adults online between 2nd and 3rd March 2016. Data were weighted to be representative of all GB
http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Christian-Institute_Childrens-Wellbeing-Tables_March-2016.pdf
adults. ComRes is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.
Oh. Facts. How annoying.0 -
Indeed. Blasted auto correct! I meant "stats" of course - the family has an interest in a harm reduction focused nicotine delivery technology company.state_go_away said:
Astrology does not help imoCharles said:
The stars I saw (a couple of years ago) had more than 95% of e-cigarette users being ex-smokersRaRaRasputin said:
Good point. I do find it difficult to believe that many people make the direct move from never smoking to vaping, but acknowledge that I could be wrong.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The more important assumption you're making is that vapers are would-be smokers. Perhaps they are not. Or perhaps they wouldn't be, had we not invented a legitimate form of smoking, having for the last fifty years de-legitimised it.RaRaRasputin said:Vapes are an incredible invention, even if we conservatively suppose that using them is only, say, half as damaging as smoking regular cigarettes, they have the potential to save more lives than any modern invention I can think of. Of course, this supposes they become more popular in Eastern markets.
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@AlanRoden: I understand some people would like the raw data on today's Named Person poll by ComRes. Here it is: https://t.co/QS4Uazph1w0
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Seems rather quiet on here today. Easter egg hangovers?0
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I know our Zoomer friends get confused by numbers in general, but is this the first time they have been flummoxed by a calendar?0
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I think we have a new thread!0
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I'm just glad we had much fun with the Cuban Mistress Crisis on Friday, there's bugger all newsMorris_Dancer said:
Seems rather quiet on here today. Easter egg hangovers?
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44 parents in Scotland. A whole 18 of them didn't like the named person law.
Looks like they extended the one I linked too. Unless they started two simultaneous polls on the same topic funded by the same group at the same time.Scott_P said:
I defend my sarcasm fully on the basis that I haven't seen that happen before.0
