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I think there is a tendency on this site, and in the BOO community to see all countries choices as being the same as the UK.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
They're not.
The reason that people in a lot of countries seem strangely fond of the Euro, or dismantling border controls, is because the alternative - for these countries - is so expensive.
If you are the UK, you are one of the world ten largest economies. You may even be in the top five or six. You have sufficient heft to get get people to buy your bonds internationally. In our case, we also have an eminently defendable border, with a relatively small land border to the Republic of Ireland (which has been passport control free since Irish independence), a small number of sea ports, and - of course - the Channel Tunnel. If you are Belgium, you would need to have a massive portion of the population manning the borders with Germany, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Their choices are not our choices. We have a wall - the sea - and they don't.
Continental European countries - long before the EU - didn't largely abandon border controls because they didn't want them. They abandoned them because erecting walls and having a massive border force was too expensive. We can therefore not be surprised when their priorities are different to ours.
I think there is a very real possibility the EU will not exist in a decade. But I suspect Son of Schengen will exist for 100s of years.0 -
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?foxinsoxuk said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.0 -
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.Tim_B said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?foxinsoxuk said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks.0 -
So the EU will officially discriminate against Eddie Stobart and Norbert Dentressanglercs1000 said:
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.Tim_B said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?foxinsoxuk said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks.
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Well, it will be individual countries border guards... but yes, that's entirely possibleTim_B said:
So the EU will officially discriminate against Eddie Stobart and Norbert Dentressanglercs1000 said:
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.Tim_B said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?foxinsoxuk said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks. 0 -
*Anecdote* An American friend of mine who has always voted Republican is now telling me she cannot imagine voting Republican this time around, and because the field of candidates is full on ridiculous. She also told me she quite likes Democrat Bernie Sanders as the best of a weak field of candidates on both sides.Tim_B said:
It depends on how you look at it - do you want a 'real conservative' or do you want a winner. At present Trump looks like a winner. Clinton is hemorrhaging except her base.Wanderer said:
My impression of grassroots Republicans is that they will forgive anything except "not being a real conservative". Is this angle not quite dangerous for Trump?Tim_B said:
CNN and Fox News - and MsNBC on steroids - have all run this stuff for ages. There's nothing secret about Trump's political evolution. The question remains about just how 'conservative' he is at this point. Hence the National Review issue.DavidL said:
Thanks. So is this Republican establishment then? Presumably intended to support Rubio?Tim_B said:
The ad was produced by a PAC run by a former Romney 2012 campaign staffer.DavidL said:
Quite so. If I had been asked before this electoral cycle I think that I would probably have classified Trump as more of a democrat than a republican to the extent that he was capable of being classified at all. I really don't get this accusation that he is some crazy right wing nut. Crazy and nut maybe, but right wing?Casino_Royale said:
The interesting question, unless I've been sleeping, is why it's taken these sorts of attack ads so long to emerge?DavidL said:I am a bit confused by the thread header. Who has produced this Trump tape? Is it CNN?
It sounds and looks like an attack ad.
I doubt the magazine or the ad will have any effect. If you're for Trump you're all in. Ditto most Clinton supporters.
But nobody has cast a vote yet and all we have are voodoo polls. We will start to find out next week.0 -
The existence of a body like the EU is an almost inevitable consequence of having arrangements like Schengen and harmonised regulation and all the other common sense things that make people's lives easier. The EU won't cease to exist now unless there is a much more fundamental break-down of relations between European states.rcs1000 said:I think there is a very real possibility the EU will not exist in a decade. But I suspect Son of Schengen will exist for 100s of years.
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Another subject - didn't you say that you had a home on Long Island? I talked to friends on Shelter Island today (Suffolk county) and they said that the west end of L.I. got 2 feet of snow and the east end about 1 foot.rcs1000 said:
Well, it will be individual countries border guards... but yes, that's entirely possibleTim_B said:
So the EU will officially discriminate against Eddie Stobart and Norbert Dentressanglercs1000 said:
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.Tim_B said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?foxinsoxuk said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.HurstLlama said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.foxinsoxuk said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.Speedy said:
So freedom of movement in the EU to be suspended temporarily for 2 years.Scott_P said:The interesting story is at the top...
//twitter.com/thetimes/status/691747627566768129
I bet it will be permanent temporary suspension.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks.0 -
That's like a lifelong Tory saying they're voting Corbyn.fitalass said:*Anecdote* An American friend of mine who has always voted Republican is now telling me she cannot imagine voting Republican this time around, and because the field of candidates is full on ridiculous. She also told me she quite likes Democrat Bernie Sanders as the best of a weak field of candidates on both sides.
Tim_B said:
It depends on how you look at it - do you want a 'real conservative' or do you want a winner. At present Trump looks like a winner. Clinton is hemorrhaging except her base.Wanderer said:
My impression of grassroots Republicans is that they will forgive anything except "not being a real conservative". Is this angle not quite dangerous for Trump?Tim_B said:
CNN and Fox News - and MsNBC on steroids - have all run this stuff for ages. There's nothing secret about Trump's political evolution. The question remains about just how 'conservative' he is at this point. Hence the National Review issue.DavidL said:
Thanks. So is this Republican establishment then? Presumably intended to support Rubio?Tim_B said:
The ad was produced by a PAC run by a former Romney 2012 campaign staffer.DavidL said:
Quite so. If I had been asked before this electoral cycle I think that I would probably have classified Trump as more of a democrat than a republican to the extent that he was capable of being classified at all. I really don't get this accusation that he is some crazy right wing nut. Crazy and nut maybe, but right wing?Casino_Royale said:
The interesting question, unless I've been sleeping, is why it's taken these sorts of attack ads so long to emerge?DavidL said:I am a bit confused by the thread header. Who has produced this Trump tape? Is it CNN?
It sounds and looks like an attack ad.
I doubt the magazine or the ad will have any effect. If you're for Trump you're all in. Ditto most Clinton supporters.
But nobody has cast a vote yet and all we have are voodoo polls. We will start to find out next week.0 -
Tim_B said:
We're not far from there, our house is in Sag Harbor. Our house is rented out during the of season, so it's our tenant's problem right nowrcs1000 said:
Another subject - didn't you say that you had a home on Long Island? I talked to friends on Shelter Island today (Suffolk county) and they said that the west end of L.I. got 2 feet of snow and the east end about 1 foot.Tim_B said:
Well, it will be individual countries border guards... but yes, that's entirely possiblercs1000 said:
So the EU will officially discriminate against Eddie Stobart and Norbert DentressangleTim_B said:
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.foxinsoxuk said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?HurstLlama said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.foxinsoxuk said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.Speedy said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks.0 -
Could be. The Schengen argreement dates from when? The 1980s I think. Yet in 1965 I remember driving from London to deliver stuff to the Portuguese Llamas near Lisbon. We had to show our passports at Dover and at the Portuguese Border with Spain (Franco's border guards weren't interested nor were the Frogs). The following year we drove from London, across France, Switzerland and down to Rome; then back via Austria, Germany, Luxemburg, and Belgium. We showed our passports only at Dover and at the hotels we used in France and Italy.rcs1000 said:
I think there is a tendency on this site, and in the BOO community to see all countries choices as being the same as the UK.
They're not.
The reason that people in a lot of countries seem strangely fond of the Euro, or dismantling border controls, is because the alternative - for these countries - is so expensive.
If you are the UK, you are one of the world ten largest economies. You may even be in the top five or six. You have sufficient heft to get get people to buy your bonds internationally. In our case, we also have an eminently defendable border, with a relatively small land border to the Republic of Ireland (which has been passport control free since Irish independence), a small number of sea ports, and - of course - the Channel Tunnel. If you are Belgium, you would need to have a massive portion of the population manning the borders with Germany, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Their choices are not our choices. We have a wall - the sea - and they don't.
Continental European countries - long before the EU - didn't largely abandon border controls because they didn't want them. They abandoned them because erecting walls and having a massive border force was too expensive. We can therefore not be surprised when their priorities are different to ours.
I think there is a very real possibility the EU will not exist in a decade. But I suspect Son of Schengen will exist for 100s of years.
There is a tendency for people to forget that people did travel quite freely long before there was a Schengen Agreement or European Union. People even bought property and lived in other european countries (e.g. the Portuguese llamas) with really no more bureaucracy than we have today. Crumbs it was possible in those far off days to enter most European Countries (including the dictatorships of Spain and Portugal) without even needing a proper passport - one could acquire a British Visitors Passport over the counter for ten bob at the your local post office.
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I would point out that lots of non EU countries (Switzerland fit example) are members of Schengen and border free travel long predates the EUwilliamglenn said:
The existence of a body like the EU is an almost inevitable consequence of having arrangements like Schengen and harmonised regulation and all the other common sense things that make people's lives easier. The EU won't cease to exist now unless there is a much more fundamental break-down of relations between European states.rcs1000 said:I think there is a very real possibility the EU will not exist in a decade. But I suspect Son of Schengen will exist for 100s of years.
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Agreed 100%.HurstLlama said:
Could be. The Schengen argreement dates from when? The 1980s I think. Yet in 1965 I remember driving from London to deliver stuff to the Portuguese Llamas near Lisbon. We had to show our passports at Dover and at the Portuguese Border with Spain (Franco's border guards weren't interested nor were the Frogs). The following year we drove from London, across France, Switzerland and down to Rome; then back via Austria, Germany, Luxemburg, and Belgium. We showed our passports only at Dover and at the hotels we used in France and Italy.rcs1000 said:
I think there is a tendency on this site, and in the BOO community to see all countries choices as being the same as the UK.
They're not.
The reason that people in a lot of countries seem strangely fond of the Euro, or dismantling border controls, is because the alternative - for these countries - is so expensive.
If you are the UK, you are one of the world ten largest economies. You may even be in the top five or six. You have sufficient heft to get get people to buy your bonds internationally. In our case, we also have an eminently defendable border, with a relatively small land border to the Republic of Ireland (which has been passport control free since Irish independence), a small number of sea ports, and - of course - the Channel Tunnel. If you are Belgium, you would need to have a massive portion of the population manning the borders with Germany, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Their choices are not our choices. We have a wall - the sea - and they don't.
Continental European countries - long before the EU - didn't largely abandon border controls because they didn't want them. They abandoned them because erecting walls and having a massive border force was too expensive. We can therefore not be surprised when their priorities are different to ours.
I think there is a very real possibility the EU will not exist in a decade. But I suspect Son of Schengen will exist for 100s of years.
There is a tendency for people to forget that people did travel quite freely long before there was a Schengen Agreement or European Union. People even bought property and lived in other european countries (e.g. the Portuguese llamas) with really no more bureaucracy than we have today. Crumbs it was possible in those far off days to enter most European Countries (including the dictatorships of Spain and Portugal) without even needing a proper passport - one could acquire a British Visitors Passport over the counter for ten bob at the your local post office.0 -
Hurst Llama, I think Schengen originally grew out of the Beneluz agreement and dates back to the 1969s0
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I missed the earlier thread on what happened in New Hampshire back in 2008. It was a classic case of not listening to the herd and using your own loaf when betting.
This time round, I haven't got a clue at all. Trump goes against all my betting instincts; over-hyped, over-talked, the kind of favourite I always look to go against. Yet, I just can't quite see how to take the guy on in the betting markets right now.
Clinton I'm convinced is no shoo-in. She is as divisive on the domestic scene as ever and you have that FBI investigation still waiting in the wings. Yet again, though, whats the alternative?
Right now, its a state by state thing for me.
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rcs1000 said:
Know it well - aren't you poshTim_B said:
We're not far from there, our house is in Sag Harbor. Our house is rented out during the of season, so it's our tenant's problem right nowrcs1000 said:
Another subject - didn't you say that you had a home on Long Island? I talked to friends on Shelter Island today (Suffolk county) and they said that the west end of L.I. got 2 feet of snow and the east end about 1 foot.Tim_B said:
Well, it will be individual countries border guards... but yes, that's entirely possiblercs1000 said:
So the EU will officially discriminate against Eddie Stobart and Norbert DentressangleTim_B said:
No landlocked EU country has the police, army or border force to genuinely control freedom of movement. There are residential streets that cross borders. There are delivery routes that criss-cross from one country to the next.foxinsoxuk said:
As I understand it - and I make no claims to be an expert - Schengen means freedom of movement within the EU once you have crossed an EU border within the Schengen countries. Countries at this point - not unnaturally - want to track who enters and leaves their borders, hence border controls and passports. But that surely doesn't limit freedom of movement?HurstLlama said:
The BOOers on here always seem gleeful when such things are suggested as suspending Schengen. Indeed many do not merely want the UK to leave but also for the EU and its institutions to be brought down. Schadenfreude is the word.foxinsoxuk said:
When has anyone in the Better Off Out movement said anything about wishing to restrict what rules other countries have. That the Schengen rules are being suspended is an interesting item of news but has sod all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU or whether we should remain within it.Speedy said:
Suspension of Passport-free movement, not of freedom of movement. A perfectly reasonable approach to an unprecedented migration crisis. Schengen always had provisions for suspensions in unusual times.
Surely restictions on people moving around Europe are very much in line with what BOOers desire?
I am with you though, so if we Leave, I am not troubled how the EU runs its affairs. It ceases to be any business of ours.
Suspending Schengen really means that on a few major cross points there will be some guys that will stop certain vehicles for spot checks.
Actually, by southeast England prices it's probably quite reasonable.0 -
Oh the presidency is a whole another ballgame. My only recent bet there was Bloomberg (Off the back of what you'd said) (Some slight Rubio hedging too)rcs1000 said:0 -
I expect Cruz to fail.0
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Cruz has an anti-Trump attack ad that started airing in Iowa tonight.0
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Bloomberg is a gun control advocate, against sugary drinks, and is a big nanny state advocate. There is no chance he could win.0
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Star Tribune/Mason Dixon Minnesota
Trump 38% Clinton 43%
Trump 37% Sanders 53%
Cruz 45% Clinton 43%
Rubio 49% Clinton 40%
http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-poll-results-presidential-race/366232021/0 -
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Boris Berezovsky just so happens to be the Israeli-Russian oligarch who lived in London after fleeing the Russian judicial system for a multitude of crimes too long to list. He was on Interpol’s most wanted list.hunchman said:
I didn't see Panorama tonight, these days I try to avoid the BBC at all cost, but this was one of the best put downs of the wretched attempt to blame Putin:pbr2013 said:Watching Panorama. Is there betting on which Putinista will be first on to denounce it?
http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/litvinenko-what-really-happened.html
In particular, why would you try to poison someone with polonium on cost grounds alone? The whole establishment story just makes no sense whatsoever.
And how did he get on 'Interpol's most wanted list'?
Russia put him there....
And the inquiry rejected evidence that the Polonium would have cost 'millions' instead accepting that $20,000 was nearer the mark.....assuming the assassins had to pay for it at all.....0 -
OT - but great quote from JK Rowling when asked if she felt she was being bullied by cybernats:
No, I don't feel bullied. In the looking-glass world of Twitter, vitriol is so often the tribute inadequacy pays to articulacy.
Worth remembering here too, eh, malcolmg?0 -
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Bloomberg wouldn't be after the Republican nomination, he'd be after Rep, Dem and Independents who didn't like their party's choices (presumably Trump and Sanders).Tim_B said:Bloomberg is a gun control advocate, against sugary drinks, and is a big nanny state advocate. There is no chance he could win.
In any case is the American public against gun control?
Apparently not http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm0 -
What a tragedyisam said:
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This discussion has been closed.