politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP’s attempt to block the scrapping of roaming ccharges w
Comments
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As there is no EU demos it is necessary for the support of the electorate to be bought using populist measures such as abolishing roaming charges.
The EU argues that the cost of using your mobile phone either at home or abroad should not differ. However, there is no single EU telephony market. Operators who have a network in just one country will have to pay a counterpart in another country for use of their infrastructure. Therefore there will be a difference in costs for using phones at home and abroad. The idea of uniform telephony prices across the EU is a nonsense.
The market was never broken as roaming charges had been falling for many years. The EU is engaging in price control where it is not required. They should divert some of their attention to addressing the EU's real failings instead of pursuing imaginary boogeymen.0 -
Miss Plato, I think it's just Brave New World. The Chinese Government has delivered immense economic growth, so people aren't fussed (generally) about the lack of political freedom.
If economic growth nose-dived, the situation could rapidly become sub-optimal.
Mind you, the government controls the media, and seeks to control the internet, but it's hard to imagine they can do the latter comprehensively.
There also appears to be a total absence of an alternative, in terms of political parties, religious organisations or anything else.
Xi Jinping's anti-corruption drive, which has seen major officials prosecuted for the first time since, perhaps, the infighting after Mao's demise, could perhaps lead to Communist divisions, but I don't know the political scene very well.
It's also worth considering how proud the Chinese are of their success and ongoing growth (understandably).0 -
If this is honestly the best that Remain have got in terms of tangible benefits of the EU then they are in serious trouble. I would be surprised if the roaming charges moved even a single vote. This is literally a "nobody cares" issue.0
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I have an undergraduate degree in the subject. No I'm not a professional.Wanderer said:
The statement that the US is in terminal decline as a global power has certainly been around for years. One day it will be true.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years.
Btw you're not a professional historian yourself are you?0 -
https://www.conservatives.com/join Wanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.0 -
If we didn't learn lessons from the past and apply them to the future, where on earth would we be? Everything is cyclical. Humans are humans. There is nothing new under the sun. If people understood that fact, the world would be a better and happier place.Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.0 -
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.
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Can I suggest you read Karl Popper's The Poverty of Historicism?Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
Really: your post is very peculiar. The United States has gone through periods in its history when it has been very expansionist and engaged with the outside world - entering into wars in the Philippines, Mexico, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. And they have gone through periods when the opposite is true. You might have made the same forecast in 1975 with the same degree of certainty.
And regarding debt: I'm not sure it's as simple as that. China has a massive shadow banking system, for example. Germany and Italy have very low levels of domestic debt. Should I suddenly think of Italy as the next economic powerhouse because it doesn't have "a vast bubble of debt"?0 -
Off-topic:
Parallel-Universes and such-like: Does anyone know how many tangiable assets exist in Hong-Kong? Scenario:
Chinese-banks are crushed as the CCP transfer dodgy-loans to the state-sector (whislt calling on state-finaced banks to fund said transfers). $2-trillion reserves are consumed so China attempts to 'appropriate' Hong-Kong reserves.
How quickly can said assets be moved to Singapore, Dubai or London...?0 -
LG83 Utter tosh..total sixth form rubbish....0
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Come on Max, don't be so emotional. Both sides have stupid arguments that they use from time-to-time.MaxPB said:If this is honestly the best that Remain have got in terms of tangible benefits of the EU then they are in serious trouble. I would be surprised if the roaming charges moved even a single vote. This is literally a "nobody cares" issue.
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No, although if the South had won or the Mid-West seceded then it might have.Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh, they have HUGE problems. But they can afford for a whole town to blow up and the wheels just keep turning. Did the American civil war halt the advance of the USA?FluffyThoughts said:
Best read-up on the concerns in China young-man. You are paralleling another universe methinks...!Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
I do basically agree with you, though, that the rise of China is based on fundamentals that won't go away.0 -
The leaders in China are appointed by previous leaders on the basis of their ability and commitment to the model - just like top managers in multi-nationals. There is no democracy but workers councils and pseudo democratic structures allow the airing of grievances in both cases.Plato_Says said:I don't know much about China - but culturally they're extremely cohesive in ways that almost everywhere else has rejected. IIRC the Chinese have many different languages - whilst the USSR had a mainly Russian speaking one.
Now, we've oodles of capitalism in China - whilst still run by Communists. If anyone can explain that dissonance to me - I'd appreciate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mortimer, there's a Chinese saying:
The empire, long divided, must unite. The empire, long united, must divide.
China is immensely resilient but it has historically fluctuated between division/weakness and unity/strength. The Communists won't have dominion forever, and when they fail it'll be interesting to see how the transition goes.
I'm not sure there's a real comparison with any other country. Worth also noting the Chinese situation could affect that of North Korea, as well as the South China Sea, islands disputed with Japan, etc.
Anyway, the Communists won't collapse tomorrow, but if we're talking about long term forecasts, political instability and even division (whether wholesale splits or bits [Tibet, for example]) ought to be considered.
China has immense power of patronage because of its resources. It can even fund nuclear power in the UK, just like multinational Ferrovial (major shareholder of Heathrow Airport) can fund a multibillion third runway. In both cases, they will price gouge customers to reward their funds.
China has hit on the most successful current business model - the multinational. It used to be the Catholic Church.0 -
The best way to hit big corporations is to arrange matters so that they have to pay their people more to survive.
You can hide tax as much as you like, but if you ain't got workers, you ain't got a company.
At the end of 2015, we saw the first signs of the global labour market tightening. This trend will deepen in 2016.
The impact will be almost completely benign.0 -
IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.SouthamObserver said:
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.0 -
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
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ThanksPlato_Says said:https://www.conservatives.com/join Wanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
Thing is, while Corbyn is "unelectable" there is, actually, a non-zero probability of him winning and I really don't want that to happen. So...0 -
''China has hit on the most successful current business model - the multinational. It used to be the Catholic Church. ''
1. Prices can only be gouged where the market is anti-competitive.
2. Even in China, the people pyramid is starting to invert and workers are becoming more scarce. The multinationals will have to start paying up.
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Big Chinese companies are significantly constrained outside China by their lack of brand power and comparatively poor records in innovation. There's little sign of that changing.Barnesian said:
The leaders in China are appointed by previous leaders on the basis of their ability and commitment to the model - just like top managers in multi-nationals. There is no democracy but workers councils and pseudo democratic structures allow the airing of grievances in both cases.Plato_Says said:I don't know much about China - but culturally they're extremely cohesive in ways that almost everywhere else has rejected. IIRC the Chinese have many different languages - whilst the USSR had a mainly Russian speaking one.
Now, we've oodles of capitalism in China - whilst still run by Communists. If anyone can explain that dissonance to me - I'd appreciate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mortimer, there's a Chinese saying:
The empire, long divided, must unite. The empire, long united, must divide.
China is immensely resilient but it has historically fluctuated between division/weakness and unity/strength. The Communists won't have dominion forever, and when they fail it'll be interesting to see how the transition goes.
I'm not sure there's a real comparison with any other country. Worth also noting the Chinese situation could affect that of North Korea, as well as the South China Sea, islands disputed with Japan, etc.
Anyway, the Communists won't collapse tomorrow, but if we're talking about long term forecasts, political instability and even division (whether wholesale splits or bits [Tibet, for example]) ought to be considered.
China has immense power of patronage because of its resources. It can even fund nuclear power in the UK, just like multinational Ferrovial (major shareholder of Heathrow Airport) can fund a multibillion third runway. In both cases, they will price gouge customers to reward their funds.
China has hit on the most successful current business model - the multinational. It used to be the Catholic Church.
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https://join.labour.org.uk/
Best £3 of 2015.Wanderer said:
ThanksPlato_Says said:https://www.conservatives.com/join Wanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
Thing is, while Corbyn is "unelectable" there is, actually, a non-zero probability of him winning and I really don't want that to happen. So...0 -
If I had written anything similar in my historiography papers, I would have been laughed out of my college. It is an argument, but it is one more suited to sociology than history.Luckyguy1983 said:
If we didn't learn lessons from the past and apply them to the future, where on earth would we be? Everything is cyclical. Humans are humans. There is nothing new under the sun. If people understood that fact, the world would be a better and happier place.Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
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I did the BSE poll for Populus and this was one of their central arguments. I wish I had the sense to take screenshots of all the pages because the point that they had which worked was "I would vote to remain so that Nigel Farage doesn't get what he wants". Everything else was just a rehash of isolationism, 3m jobs and the nebulous concept of "influence".rcs1000 said:
Come on Max, don't be so emotional. Both sides have stupid arguments that they use from time-to-time.MaxPB said:If this is honestly the best that Remain have got in terms of tangible benefits of the EU then they are in serious trouble. I would be surprised if the roaming charges moved even a single vote. This is literally a "nobody cares" issue.
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On-topic, isn't the puzzling question why UKIP did oppose this? Regardless of the referendum, why would an insurgent party not side with the consumer? Their whole schtick is that they're on the side the little guy.0
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On the contrary. Self sufficiency on the scale of the UK with its population density and reliance on imported food and energy would be very difficult.Wanderer said:
What sort of policies do you have in mind? Some form of autarky?Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
What is need is a banding together of like minded countries to level the playing field with multinationals. Something like the EU, (or the G7 or G20). The problem is that the multinationals can get inside the leadership of these entities, eg with TTIP. Eternal viligance, political activism, transparency - these are what are need. Not autarky.
PS I spent my whole career working for a large multinational, a lot of the time in the international HQ.0 -
''Big Chinese companies are significantly constrained outside China by their lack of brand power and comparatively poor records in innovation. There's little sign of that changing.''
Absolutely. In the 1970s and 1980s Japanese banks headed for London to set up offices bearing chequebooks.
I've waited for the Chinese to do the same on a much bigger scale - in vain!0 -
Ms Plato posts a Telegraph article regarding "British Invasions". My memory may be getting feeble but I think a couple of HMS Ark-Royal's Buccanneers may have invaded Guatemalan* airspace in the 'Seventies....
* Maybe Mr Lhama can confirm...?0 -
Yep - the big multinationals like the tax breaks but can extricate themselves very quickly if they can get better deals elsewhere. And at some stage the EU is going to find a way to effectively attack those Irish tax rates.MaxPB said:
IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.SouthamObserver said:
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.
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There are certain parts of the Irish economic model that have worked well: it - along with Switzerland - is a major manufacturer of pharmaceuticals; Intel has built a massive chip fabrication plant outside Dublin; financial services firms have built back offices on the banks of the Liffey.MaxPB said:IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.
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Things are moving against them as well, Japanese companies are fed up of IP theft, Panasonic, Sony and a few others are onshoring a lot of jobs or going to SE Asia for cheap labour. American companies are not far behind, the Koreans have Kaesong. I don't know where it leaves China if they can't steal and copy their way to the top.SouthamObserver said:
Big Chinese companies are significantly constrained outside China by their lack of brand power and comparatively poor records in innovation. There's little sign of that changing.Barnesian said:
The leaders in China are appointed by previous leaders on the basis of their ability and commitment to the model - just like top managers in multi-nationals. There is no democracy but workers councils and pseudo democratic structures allow the airing of grievances in both cases.Plato_Says said:I don't know much about China - but culturally they're extremely cohesive in ways that almost everywhere else has rejected. IIRC the Chinese have many different languages - whilst the USSR had a mainly Russian speaking one.
Now, we've oodles of capitalism in China - whilst still run by Communists. If anyone can explain that dissonance to me - I'd appreciate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mortimer, there's a Chinese saying:
The empire, long divided, must unite. The empire, long united, must divide.
China is immensely resilient but it has historically fluctuated between division/weakness and unity/strength. The Communists won't have dominion forever, and when they fail it'll be interesting to see how the transition goes.
I'm not sure there's a real comparison with any other country. Worth also noting the Chinese situation could affect that of North Korea, as well as the South China Sea, islands disputed with Japan, etc.
Anyway, the Communists won't collapse tomorrow, but if we're talking about long term forecasts, political instability and even division (whether wholesale splits or bits [Tibet, for example]) ought to be considered.
China has immense power of patronage because of its resources. It can even fund nuclear power in the UK, just like multinational Ferrovial (major shareholder of Heathrow Airport) can fund a multibillion third runway. In both cases, they will price gouge customers to reward their funds.
China has hit on the most successful current business model - the multinational. It used to be the Catholic Church.0 -
Can't see its that hard, its the EU meddling so they oppose it. This is a classic case for subsidiarity, I can't see a reason why our national government can't impose the proposed limits on UK based mobile companies, unless the EU rules prevent it, in which case the question answers itself.Wanderer said:On-topic, isn't the puzzling question why UKIP did oppose this? Regardless of the referendum, why would an insurgent party not side with the consumer? Their whole schtick is that they're on the side the little guy.
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Of course, if I join the Conservatives I might get the chance to socialise with people like Mark Clarke. FUN.Plato_Says said:https://join.labour.org.uk/
Best £3 of 2015.Wanderer said:
ThanksPlato_Says said:https://www.conservatives.com/join Wanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
Thing is, while Corbyn is "unelectable" there is, actually, a non-zero probability of him winning and I really don't want that to happen. So...0 -
What is history if not applied sociology?Mortimer said:
If I had written anything similar in my historiography papers, I would have been laughed out of my college. It is an argument, but it is one more suited to sociology than history.Luckyguy1983 said:
If we didn't learn lessons from the past and apply them to the future, where on earth would we be? Everything is cyclical. Humans are humans. There is nothing new under the sun. If people understood that fact, the world would be a better and happier place.Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.0 -
A lot of Chinese companies are finding it hard to enter new markets because they immediately come under patent attack. It's a real problem for them.MaxPB said:
Things are moving against them as well, Japanese companies are fed up of IP theft, Panasonic, Sony and a few others are onshoring a lot of jobs or going to SE Asia for cheap labour. American companies are not far behind, the Koreans have Kaesong. I don't know where it leaves China if they can't steal and copy their way to the top.SouthamObserver said:
Big Chinese companies are significantly constrained outside China by their lack of brand power and comparatively poor records in innovation. There's little sign of that changing.Barnesian said:
The leaders in China are appointed by previous leaders on the basis of their ability and commitment to the model - just like top managers in multi-nationals. There is no democracy but workers councils and pseudo democratic structures allow the airing of grievances in both cases.Plato_Says said:I don't know much about China - but culturally they're extremely cohesive in ways that almost everywhere else has rejected. IIRC the Chinese have many different languages - whilst the USSR had a mainly Russian speaking one.
Now, we've oodles of capitalism in China - whilst still run by Communists. If anyone can explain that dissonance to me - I'd appreciate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mortimer, there's a Chinese saying:
The empire, long divided, must unite. The empire, long united, must divide.
China is immensely resilient but it has historically fluctuated between division/weakness and unity/strength. The Communists won't have dominion forever, and when they fail it'll be interesting to see how the transition goes.
I'm not sure there's a real comparison with any other country. Worth also noting the Chinese situation could affect that of North Korea, as well as the South China Sea, islands disputed with Japan, etc.
Anyway, the Communists won't collapse tomorrow, but if we're talking about long term forecasts, political instability and even division (whether wholesale splits or bits [Tibet, for example]) ought to be considered.
China has immense power of patronage because of its resources. It can even fund nuclear power in the UK, just like multinational Ferrovial (major shareholder of Heathrow Airport) can fund a multibillion third runway. In both cases, they will price gouge customers to reward their funds.
China has hit on the most successful current business model - the multinational. It used to be the Catholic Church.
0 -
And George is trying his hardest to match them. IIRC Corp Tax will be 18% next year.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - the big multinationals like the tax breaks but can extricate themselves very quickly if they can get better deals elsewhere. And at some stage the EU is going to find a way to effectively attack those Irish tax rates.MaxPB said:
IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.SouthamObserver said:
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.0 -
Much more interesting.Luckyguy1983 said:
What is history if not applied sociology?Mortimer said:
If I had written anything similar in my historiography papers, I would have been laughed out of my college. It is an argument, but it is one more suited to sociology than history.Luckyguy1983 said:
If we didn't learn lessons from the past and apply them to the future, where on earth would we be? Everything is cyclical. Humans are humans. There is nothing new under the sun. If people understood that fact, the world would be a better and happier place.Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
0 -
Join Labour and holiday with Diane Abbot. All Parties have their crosses to bear.
Wanderer said:
Of course, if I join the Conservatives I might get the chance to socialise with people like Mark Clarke. FUN.Plato_Says said:https://join.labour.org.uk/
Best £3 of 2015.Wanderer said:
ThanksPlato_Says said:https://www.conservatives.com/join Wanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
Thing is, while Corbyn is "unelectable" there is, actually, a non-zero probability of him winning and I really don't want that to happen. So...0 -
Thanks for the reply. I see where you're coming from and in principle I agree with you. (We might disagree over the details, but that's politics.)Barnesian said:
On the contrary. Self sufficiency on the scale of the UK with its population density and reliance on imported food and energy would be very difficult.Wanderer said:
What sort of policies do you have in mind? Some form of autarky?Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
What is need is a banding together of like minded countries to level the playing field with multinationals. Something like the EU, (or the G7 or G20). The problem is that the multinationals can get inside the leadership of these entities, eg with TTIP. Eternal viligance, political activism, transparency - these are what are need. Not autarky.
PS I spent my whole career working for a large multinational, a lot of the time in the international HQ.0 -
I wish I'd studied Anthropology.Mortimer said:
Much more interesting.Luckyguy1983 said:
What is history if not applied sociology?Mortimer said:
If I had written anything similar in my historiography papers, I would have been laughed out of my college. It is an argument, but it is one more suited to sociology than history.Luckyguy1983 said:
snipMortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.0 -
Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose0 -
IME IP theft is also a significant and troubling issue *between* Chinese companies. From my limited vision of it things are improving, but too many Chinese engineers and managers don't fundamentally understand the reasons for IP.MaxPB said:Things are moving against them as well, Japanese companies are fed up of IP theft, Panasonic, Sony and a few others are onshoring a lot of jobs or going to SE Asia for cheap labour. American companies are not far behind, the Koreans have Kaesong. I don't know where it leaves China if they can't steal and copy their way to the top.
Until their own IP is stolen, that is. As long as it is cheaper to steal IP than develop their own, they will do so. Unfortunately for them, the risks of having it down to them increases as they become more innovative, and they need to do that to be leading rather than following.
The situation is probably not helped by massive and somewhat invisible corporations, often ultimately owned by figures in the Chinese army, owning lots of the companies.0 -
As MaxPB says, it's the IP-related tax regime that the big multinationals really like about Ireland.Plato_Says said:And George is trying his hardest to match them. IIRC Corp Tax will be 18% next year.
SouthamObserver said:
Yep - the big multinationals like the tax breaks but can extricate themselves very quickly if they can get better deals elsewhere. And at some stage the EU is going to find a way to effectively attack those Irish tax rates.MaxPB said:
IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.SouthamObserver said:
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.
0 -
Re the Muslim family not allowed to travel:
"Mr Mahmood said he prayed at the same mosque as Syed Rizwan Farook, who along with his wife Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people in San Bernardino on 2 December but he "did not know him personally", would not have recognised him and could not recall ever speaking to him."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35171175
0 -
Either is neither to me. I want to Leave. The colour or preferences of a particular leader is temporary.isam said:
Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose0 -
Perhaps best to scrap corporation tax entirely. Move it over to employee, sales, and transaction taxes.Plato_Says said:And George is trying his hardest to match them. IIRC Corp Tax will be 18% next year.
SouthamObserver said:
Yep - the big multinationals like the tax breaks but can extricate themselves very quickly if they can get better deals elsewhere. And at some stage the EU is going to find a way to effectively attack those Irish tax rates.MaxPB said:
IP holding companies aren't exactly labour intensive! It was one thing for Ireland to say, come here and pay less tax for your earnings, but the reality is that Ireland have been letting these multinational companies get off paying any kind of tax with dodgy sweetheart deals and they don't even get any jobs out of it. I know that they are trying to play the long game, but this seems more like a failure.SouthamObserver said:
Ireland has huge levels of emigration. Its standard of living is below the EU average.Plato_Says said:What nonsense - no economy lives in a vacuum free of pissing off their voters or their tax payers.
See 70s Brain Drain and taxation.Barnesian said:
Indeed. But Ireland's economy is at the mercy of the multinationals. It doesn't even realise it is shackled. But it would soon realise if it offended the multi-nationals.Plato_Says said:Ireland did very nicely thank you by attracting multi-nationals.
ThreeQuidder said:
Which is all very well in theory, but the thing about multi-nationals is that they can choose to base themselves anywhere. So unilateral action is risky.Barnesian said:I am very much pro-consumer and think that governments should do much more to keep multi-nationals in their box
PS It won't.
We could adopt the same master/slave posture. We are halfway there already under this government. Personally I prefer freedom, even at a cost.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-standard-of-living-below-eu-average-344682.html
The multinationals that use Ireland as a tax base are not creating large numbers of well paid jobs.
If you do business in a country, then you pay tax there. No dodging will help.
0 -
That is a very easy question for me to answer!isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose0 -
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.
0 -
What rubbish.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.0 -
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, you would realise the unmistakable signs of late-imperial putrefaction have been around the US for years. Their economy (like ours sadly) is a vast bubble of debt waiting to be burst when confidence erodes, and the dollar ceases to be the world's trading currency as the pound did before it. There is no way back, and the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.0 -
I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
I don't think I could agree with you there. I wouldn't say there have been phases, I would say there's a gradual trajectory from being a very insular power based on a strong domestic economy (the opposite of Britain that as a small island nation always had to trade with the world) to increasing engagement/conflict/cementing of interests with outside powers, covert and overt. Increasing use of diplomatic pressure and where that fails military force is a feature of all empires.rcs1000 said:
Can I suggest you read Karl Popper's The Poverty of Historicism?
Really: your post is very peculiar. The United States has gone through periods in its history when it has been very expansionist and engaged with the outside world - entering into wars in the Philippines, Mexico, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. And they have gone through periods when the opposite is true. You might have made the same forecast in 1975 with the same degree of certainty.
And regarding debt: I'm not sure it's as simple as that. China has a massive shadow banking system, for example. Germany and Italy have very low levels of domestic debt. Should I suddenly think of Italy as the next economic powerhouse because it doesn't have "a vast bubble of debt"?
The point about debt is surely a simple one - we use a currency based on the ability of the issuing country to theoretically pay it back. If the country is broke, why keep using its currency to settle international business? And if it stops being used, another will step into its place. China is rapaciously buying gold, so the Yuan will be backed by gold ready to step into the dollars shoes.0 -
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:
You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.rcs1000 said:
Back in 1990, the number one best selling book on the New York Times bestseller list was "The Sun Always Rises in the East" about the superiority of the Japanese economic model, and how it was inevtiable that the US would be eclipsed before the the Year 2000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Any notion that China is not going to outstrip the US as the world's leading economy is wishful thinking. It's not an economic miracle; its simply numbers. We can deny it or prepare for it.rcs1000 said:In the 1970s: "Britain's shit, look how great Europe is, join them!"
In the 1980s: "Europe's falling behind, Japan is in the ascendent, we should have a free trade deal with them instead!"
In the 2000s: "The BRICs are the future. Look at Brazil and China's growth rate. Let's join with them!"
I do wonder if we all have a tendency to over-extrapolate recent trends - we were wrong to think that the EU countries had any kind of economy miracle in the 1970s, ditto Japan in the 1990s; ditto Brazil in the 2000s; and probably ditto China now.
China's working age population peaks in 2017. The US will continue to grow, as it sucks in immigrants and has a TFR close to replacement.
China may - or may not - pass the US as the world's dominant economic power. The idea that there is anything inevitable about it is laughable.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
0 -
The 1st. Every day and twice on a Sunday. It's about people and their will, and if we had a proper Tory Eurosceptic Government (and I mean really committed, not getting a call from Obama and suddenly thinking this EU wheeze is alright), we would either find a satisfactory way to live within the EU, or leave quick sticks. It's not just the pro-European nature of our current Government, it's the PR they do for the EU by concealing the full facts from the people. A few months of a truly eurosceptic Government and this mask would fall completely.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
I support Leave because it's a way for the people to impose their democratic view on the current Government. Not because I think it's all going to be great.0 -
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.0 -
Hmm. Nearly 50 MPs claimed expenses for renting a flat or staying in hotels in London despite owning property in the capital. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4395514.ece
Bryant is one of them.0 -
To some that would be seen as a pro ukip thread and hell will freeze over before that happensPlato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.
0 -
Guido
Labour Membership's Present to the Tories https://t.co/32moLtsyfU #SaveJez https://t.co/itICljdUUe0 -
Well, all historians I know would disagree with you. They would both write and say an historian; as has been convention for several centuries.ThreeQuidder said:
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.
0 -
"Best £3 of 2015."
Reason why the Tory party makes my flesh creep number 101.0 -
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
<
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
What's Bryant done now? The Times story is dated March and illustrated by Andrew Lansley.Plato_Says said:
Hmm. Nearly 50 MPs claimed expenses for renting a flat or staying in hotels in London despite owning property in the capital. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4395514.ece
Bryant is one of them.0 -
They're living in the past. "An historian" and "an historic" grate, but I wouldn't correct someone who used them. Unless they "corrected" someone who used the modern form. I'll refer you to Fowler, and leave it there I think.Mortimer said:
Well, all historians I know would disagree with you. They would both write and say an historian; as has been convention for several centuries.ThreeQuidder said:
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.0 -
Assume then you feel the same about Greenies, Respect, SWP, TUSC, CPGB and the rest making hay of Labour's idiotic entryist scheme. At least the Tories aren't determined to change Labour a la Nellist and Hatton.Toms said:
"Best £3 of 2015."
Reason why the Tory party makes my flesh creep number 101.0 -
Morning all,
I have asked Santa for supplies of popcorn in anticipation of a cracking 2016 courtesy of Corbyn and Co. Telegraph reports rumours of a reshuffle in the new year.0 -
Rather interesting article about all this Rhodes statue stuff...and you definitely won't be hearing or reading about it via the BBC or Guardian...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/23/ugly-true-story-rhodesmustfall-oxford-universitys-answer-blacklivesmatter/0 -
That Mr Mahmood is already in America and is a cousin of the ones barred from entry. (As an aside, the BBC really ought to have translated this into English, "runs an auto repair shop in San Bernardino," rather than mindlessly transcribing the local press.)LucyJones said:Re the Muslim family not allowed to travel:
"Mr Mahmood said he prayed at the same mosque as Syed Rizwan Farook, who along with his wife Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people in San Bernardino on 2 December but he "did not know him personally", would not have recognised him and could not recall ever speaking to him."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35171175
It all seems a tad unsatisfactory. If there are genuine grounds for belief these people are terrorists then a travel ban is not enough; if they are not then it is overkill.0 -
I've watched that, thanks. I'd rather something in textual than spoken form (if only so I could write my own notes), and some contrary views from the other side might also be nice.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
The shortest lived ShCab in history? And the true-faithful Corbynites to populate the new one will be entertaining. Some old faces and careerists.
I want Dennis Skinner appointed.rottenborough said:Morning all,
I have asked Santa for supplies of popcorn in anticipation of a cracking 2016 courtesy of Corbyn and Co. Telegraph reports rumours of a reshuffle in the new year.0 -
Lord Livingstone for me.Plato_Says said:The shortest lived ShCab in history? And the true-faithful Corbynites to populate the new one will be entertaining. Some old faces and careerists.
I want Dennis Skinner appointed.rottenborough said:Morning all,
I have asked Santa for supplies of popcorn in anticipation of a cracking 2016 courtesy of Corbyn and Co. Telegraph reports rumours of a reshuffle in the new year.0 -
Your last statement is utter nonsense. There are plenty of people on watchlists that the authorities can't or don't want to put on trial for being a [suspected] terrorist or extremist, but neither do they want them travelling.DecrepitJohnL said:
That Mr Mahmood is already in America and is a cousin of the ones barred from entry. (As an aside, the BBC really ought to have translated this into English, "runs an auto repair shop in San Bernardino," rather than mindlessly transcribing the local press.)LucyJones said:Re the Muslim family not allowed to travel:
"Mr Mahmood said he prayed at the same mosque as Syed Rizwan Farook, who along with his wife Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people in San Bernardino on 2 December but he "did not know him personally", would not have recognised him and could not recall ever speaking to him."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35171175
It all seems a tad unsatisfactory. If there are genuine grounds for belief these people are terrorists then a travel ban is not enough; if they are not then it is overkill.
Remember, the guys who carried out the attacks in Paris traveled extensively in the year leading up to the event.
We only have one side of the story in this case and that one side has some rather large holes in it. The Americans have the right to admit who they like, I know white Christian UK citizens, with no criminal records, being rejected from entering.0 -
Ntokozo Qwabe – good for a Scrabble score (if proper names were allowed) but not much else…
FrancisUrquhart said:Rather interesting article about all this Rhodes statue stuff...and you definitely won't be hearing or reading about it via the BBC or Guardian...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/23/ugly-true-story-rhodesmustfall-oxford-universitys-answer-blacklivesmatter/0 -
Benn will be a powerful enemy from the backbench.flightpath01 said:
Lord Livingstone for me.Plato_Says said:The shortest lived ShCab in history? And the true-faithful Corbynites to populate the new one will be entertaining. Some old faces and careerists.
I want Dennis Skinner appointed.rottenborough said:Morning all,
I have asked Santa for supplies of popcorn in anticipation of a cracking 2016 courtesy of Corbyn and Co. Telegraph reports rumours of a reshuffle in the new year.0 -
That Mr Mahmood is already in America and is a cousin of the ones barred from entry. (As an aside, the BBC really ought to have translated this into English, "runs an auto repair shop in San Bernardino," rather than mindlessly transcribing the local press.)
It all seems a tad unsatisfactory. If there are genuine grounds for belief these people are terrorists then a travel ban is not enough; if they are not then it is overkill.
Ah yes, should have read more carefully. I got a bit confused as they seem to share a name.
0 -
Sir Bernard was press Secretary to Barbara Castle and Tony Benn in his civil service days before becoming Margaret Thatcher's press secretary and used to be a member of the Labour Party before he joined the civil serviceWanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
0 -
An interesting video.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"
The report prepared by officials from the Treasury is truly depressing. We may never have joined the EEC/EU if the Eurofanatics were honest with us from the start.It should be noted at the outset that the plan for economic and monetary union (EMU) has revolutionary long-term implications, both economic and political. It could imply the ultimate creation of a European federal state with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic life would ultimately be handed over to the central, federal authorities.
0 -
Lolz EdM
Christmas Eve, and you pop out for pint of milk in the your PJs and someone wants a bleeding selfie...
https://t.co/VN0PeJexCk”0 -
More stupid rubbish. If you want to write ''an 'istorian'', in an attempt to mimic glottal slurring or slang speech, then go ahead and do it but don't insult our intelligence otherwise.Mortimer said:
Well, all historians I know would disagree with you. They would both write and say an historian; as has been convention for several centuries.ThreeQuidder said:
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.0 -
''The Americans have the right to admit who they like, I know white Christian UK citizens, with no criminal records, being rejected from entering. ''
Perhaps moderate muslims in the west might be more inclined to oppose extremists when the crimes of the radicals affect their own lives more deeply.
Then again, they might blame Western governments desperately trying to protect their citizens from slaughter by terrorists.0 -
Right, I'm logging off for a few days.
Merry Christmas everyone!0 -
I think OGH is simply reacting to the fact that the vast majority of posters are eurosceptic. It's no fun without a debate.blackburn63 said:
To some that would be seen as a pro ukip thread and hell will freeze over before that happensPlato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3373121/So-MailOnline-uncovers-truth-sleeping-dogs-street-art-fad-s-not-mould-sight.html
All I can say is the college of fine art in Romania must be an odd place where they only teach their students to make the same identical sand sculpture ;-)0 -
Plato.. maybe we should do what the Yanks have done..kick em out... if they don't like it then eff off..I think the tolerance level in the normally placid UK is rapidly reaching tipping level..0
-
I wouldn't usually correct either - but when someone claims to be 'a historian' then spouts a load of ahistorical rubbish, it seems apposite :-)))ThreeQuidder said:
They're living in the past. "An historian" and "an historic" grate, but I wouldn't correct someone who used them. Unless they "corrected" someone who used the modern form. I'll refer you to Fowler, and leave it there I think.Mortimer said:
Well, all historians I know would disagree with you. They would both write and say an historian; as has been convention for several centuries.ThreeQuidder said:
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.
We'll agree to disagree - Fowler; what was his period, again?
0 -
It is not slang. Apologies if correctitude offends.flightpath01 said:
More stupid rubbish. If you want to write ''an 'istorian'', in an attempt to mimic glottal slurring or slang speech, then go ahead and do it but don't insult our intelligence otherwise.Mortimer said:
Well, all historians I know would disagree with you. They would both write and say an historian; as has been convention for several centuries.ThreeQuidder said:
"ist" is not in the first syllable. The first syllable is "his".Mortimer said:
You think? I think it grates when preceded by an 'a' -ThreeQuidder said:
No, the stress in "historian" is on the "tor", not the "ist". hiss-TOR-ee-an.Mortimer said:
Historian begins with a weak first consonant, the emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist' - it is therefore commonly preceeded by 'an'.ThreeQuidder said:
When you go on holiday, do you stay at an hotel?Mortimer said:
An historian would understand that history is the study of the past - not the study of the past and hypothetical near future.Luckyguy1983 said:You're not a historian, so I suppose your attitude is understandable. If you understood the concepts, y...d the current push for military domination (a feature of all declining empires) is a last ditch attempt to avert historical inevitability.
The H in hotel is slightly less weak (but not exactly strong). I do tend to say 'an'otel'. For those who pronounce the h more, 'a HO-tel' works fine.
Yes, I suppose if you drop the "h" then "an-iss-tor-ee-an" is correct in speech. But it looks very wrong in writing.
The emphasis in the first syllable is on the 'ist', and that is what matters here.
The H is there - you can't wish it away. If you pronounce "an historian" carefully, you stumble over the transition between the words just as much as you do if you try to say "an banana". In speech you can elide the H away, but you can't in writing.
And what do you mean more? :-)
Merry Christmas!
0 -
Public opinion as expressed in newspaper comments seems heartedly sick of Muslims crying about being victimised.richardDodd said:
Plato.. maybe we should do what the Yanks have done..kick em out... if they don't like it then eff off..I think the tolerance level in the normally placid UK is rapidly reaching tipping level..
0 -
Get the transcript of John Redwood's Brexit themed Christmas Fairy Tale?JosiasJessop said:
I've watched that, thanks. I'd rather something in textual than spoken form (if only so I could write my own notes), and some contrary views from the other side might also be nice.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
But Ingham came across as very partisan- in no sense did he appear a neutral civil servant as Thatcher's Press Secretary - much more like Alastair Campbell.HYUFD said:
Sir Bernard was press Secretary to Barbara Castle and Tony Benn in his civil service days before becoming Margaret Thatcher's press secretary and used to be a member of the Labour Party before he joined the civil serviceWanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.0 -
Well anything is better than the 30 million dead under the Cultural Revolution.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Plato, I think it's just Brave New World. The Chinese Government has delivered immense economic growth, so people aren't fussed (generally) about the lack of political freedom.
....
It's also worth considering how proud the Chinese are of their success and ongoing growth (understandably).
0 -
So contrary views are not allowed? The Great Hitchen's views should be unsullied?isam said:
Get the transcript of John Redwood's Brexit themed Christmas Fairy Tale?JosiasJessop said:
I've watched that, thanks. I'd rather something in textual than spoken form (if only so I could write my own notes), and some contrary views from the other side might also be nice.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.0 -
And you quote *Arbeit macht frei* to describe Tories.
Forgive me whilst I doubt your impartiality.justin124 said:
But Ingham came across as very partisan- in no sense did he appear a neutral civil servant as Thatcher's Press Secretary - much more like Alastair Campbell.HYUFD said:
Sir Bernard was press Secretary to Barbara Castle and Tony Benn in his civil service days before becoming Margaret Thatcher's press secretary and used to be a member of the Labour Party before he joined the civil serviceWanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.0 -
I don't get what you are saying, I was trying to help. You asked for something that helped understand how our relationship with the EU has evolved, and the programme I suggested does thatJosiasJessop said:
So contrary views are not allowed? The Great Hitchen's views should be unsullied?isam said:
Get the transcript of John Redwood's Brexit themed Christmas Fairy Tale?JosiasJessop said:
I've watched that, thanks. I'd rather something in textual than spoken form (if only so I could write my own notes), and some contrary views from the other side might also be nice.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.
John Redwood has done a Christmas fairy tale today about how our membership of the EU has evolved, I was jokingly suggesting you read that
0 -
But I don't claim to be an impartial civil servant!Plato_Says said:And you quote *Arbeit macht frei* to describe Tories.
Forgive me whilst I doubt your impartiality.justin124 said:
But Ingham came across as very partisan- in no sense did he appear a neutral civil servant as Thatcher's Press Secretary - much more like Alastair Campbell.HYUFD said:
Sir Bernard was press Secretary to Barbara Castle and Tony Benn in his civil service days before becoming Margaret Thatcher's press secretary and used to be a member of the Labour Party before he joined the civil serviceWanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
I have also made it clear that there are some Tories I had far more time for than New Labour - -eg - Harold Macmillan - RA Butler - Iain Macleod - Edward Boyle - even Ted Heath.
On the other hand Tories such as the Member for Telford are very likely to have an Arbeit Macht Frei attitude to workers - indeed it is implicit in how she has treated her own staff.0 -
Its pretty clear that a common currency and interest rates would lead to common tax and thus closer (possibly total) political union as well. Thats why the tories opposed joining the Euro and still do.MP_SE said:
An interesting video.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"
The report prepared by officials from the Treasury is truly depressing. We may never have joined the EEC/EU if the Eurofanatics were honest with us from the start.It should be noted at the outset that the plan for economic and monetary union (EMU) has revolutionary long-term implications, both economic and political. It could imply the ultimate creation of a European federal state with a single currency. All the basic instruments of national economic life would ultimately be handed over to the central, federal authorities.
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If UK laws were applied impartially to all groups, I suspect the reason for many complaints would disaappearPlato_Says said:Public opinion as expressed in newspaper comments seems heartedly sick of Muslims crying about being victimised.
richardDodd said:Plato.. maybe we should do what the Yanks have done..kick em out... if they don't like it then eff off..I think the tolerance level in the normally placid UK is rapidly reaching tipping level..
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From a different angle, can I suggest This Blessed Plot by Hugo Youngisam said:
I don't get what you are saying, I was trying to help. You asked for something that helped understand how our relationship with the EU has evolved, and the programme I suggested does thatJosiasJessop said:
So contrary views are not allowed? The Great Hitchen's views should be unsullied?isam said:
Get the transcript of John Redwood's Brexit themed Christmas Fairy Tale?JosiasJessop said:
I've watched that, thanks. I'd rather something in textual than spoken form (if only so I could write my own notes), and some contrary views from the other side might also be nice.isam said:
YouTube "This Sceptic Isle"JosiasJessop said:
As someone who was only one when we last had an EEC/EU referendum, it would be very useful (although probably not to 'remain') to see how our relationship with the EU had evolved over the four decades.Plato_Says said:I'd love to see a pro-Leave thread on here. There's a number of us who have a fairly coherent idea of the issues, and don't resort to name calling as a substitute for argument.
LucyJones said:
If we vote to stay, we will be stuck in an ever closer union for ever.isam said:Perhaps an interesting question for leavers is
"Would you be happier inside the EU with a UKIP/Tory Eurosceptic Government, or outside it with a Corbynesque Govt?"
The first example is pretty much what the Scots have I suppose
At least outside the EU we would know that the Corbyn government was time-limited and there would be a chance to kick it out at the next election.
John Redwood has done a Christmas fairy tale today about how our membership of the EU has evolved, I was jokingly suggesting you read that0 -
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You damaged your credibility enormously with that quote - and it wasn't a one off. When a poster equates Tories with Nazis several times - well what do you expect?justin124 said:
But I don't claim to be an impartial civil servant!Plato_Says said:And you quote *Arbeit macht frei* to describe Tories.
Forgive me whilst I doubt your impartiality.justin124 said:
But Ingham came across as very partisan- in no sense did he appear a neutral civil servant as Thatcher's Press Secretary - much more like Alastair Campbell.HYUFD said:
Sir Bernard was press Secretary to Barbara Castle and Tony Benn in his civil service days before becoming Margaret Thatcher's press secretary and used to be a member of the Labour Party before he joined the civil serviceWanderer said:
I agree with Bernard Ingham.HYUFD said:Sir Bernard Ingham 'Jeremy Corbyn is a pestilence and must be purged'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatchers-former-head-of-press-bernard-ingham-says-jeremy-corbyn-is-a-plague-epidemic-and-a6784291.html
Perhaps I should f*ck off and join the Tories. I might actually.
I have also made it clear that there are some Tories I had far more time for than New Labour - -eg - Harold Macmillan - RA Butler - Iain Macleod - Edward Boyle - even Ted Heath.
On the other hand Tories such as the Member for Telford are very likely to have an Arbeit Macht Frei attitude to workers - indeed it is implicit in how she has treated her own staff.0 -
If UK laws were applied impartially to all groups, I suspect the reason for many complaints would disaappear
It isn;t just Trump. Judging by articles on Holland, France and the UK recently, there is evidence that official attitudes to islam are hardening a little.0 -
China will always be a huge economy - it just may never become a powerful one. Some things are a major worry:
Big Chinese companies are significantly constrained outside China by their lack of brand power and comparatively poor records in innovation. There's little sign of that changing.
1. Demographics. China is the fastest ageing society and has already peaked for working age population. Growth implies huge productivity gains. How do they achieve that in a rigid statist dictatorship?
2. It has a staggeringly monumental debt load. The growth has been borrowed. With an ever diminishing GDP return on new debt. It's as if they've had Gordon Brown running the show for the last 20 years. Their financial system is not ready to absorb a downturn.
3. It's not cheap to manufacture there any more. Onshoring or wage hunting in cheaper places of all those low end jobs is causing an diabolical employment issue. Graduates can't find work.
4. They ain't pals with the neighbours.
5. And they hate each other. Chinese society is the most brutally competitive, moral free Darwinian jungle. In fact there is little society - just nationhood. I blame the one child policy.
6. The communist mandate to govern has been for a long time ' OK we're a bunch of despot a-holes, but we have lifted you out of poverty so don't riot'. When the inevitable bump in the road comes along with banking failure, high unemployment, etc what will the mandate be? The internal stability of the PRC is not a given.0 -
18/24.Plato_Says said:
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