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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The immigration poster that symbolises the Dave’s dilemma.

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,226

    It all started John with Weybridge South

    JohnO said:

    In Mr. Lympe-Pole's absence, it is my solemn duty to report that

    THE GOOD NEWS KEEPS ON COMING

    http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-economy-close-escape-velocity-115822178.html

    A grateful populace is still dancing in the streets. Apparently the demand is growing for the new walton Bridge (Danny Alexander was there) to be named after a certain beloved local leader.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Why not view the data in the article as the fact that up to 31% of the infamous 2010 LDs could vote Conservative and not LD because of the LD stance on immigration? That is about 7% of those voting. It would also seal the fate of about 20 LD MPs.

    Because we don't wear blue tinted glasses
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Why not view the data in the article as the fact that up to 31% of the infamous 2010 LDs could vote Conservative and not LD because of the LD stance on immigration? That is about 7% of those voting. It would also seal the fate of about 20 LD MPs.

    I remain sceptical that everything is a) good news for the LDs, b) that the LDs will make all the running in GE2015 result and c) Europe doesn't matter as its actually a proxy for immigration which gets many very exercised.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Mr. M, I'm not sure that deliberately reducing the size of one of our largest and most important (in tax terms) sectors would necessarily help reduce the deficit.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JohnO said:

    It all started John with Weybridge South

    JohnO said:

    In Mr. Lympe-Pole's absence, it is my solemn duty to report that

    THE GOOD NEWS KEEPS ON COMING

    http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-economy-close-escape-velocity-115822178.html

    A grateful populace is still dancing in the streets. Apparently the demand is growing for the new walton Bridge (Danny Alexander was there) to be named after a certain beloved local leader.
    I'll be watching for a local population explosion and children called Jonnoh - like in the Balkans and Tonee!
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Mr. M, I'm not sure that deliberately reducing the size of one of our largest and most important (in tax terms) sectors would necessarily help reduce the deficit.

    It caused the deficit.

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    Plato and Mark Senior, the other factor that I do wonder about is the Lib Dem "swing back" that they had achieved at previous GEs from the NOTA voters. This was I guess circa 3% to 5% of the LD votes, but as part of the Govt, why would protest votes go back to the party that was .. in ... Govt?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Why not view the data in the article as the fact that up to 31% of the infamous 2010 LDs could vote Conservative and not LD because of the LD stance on immigration? That is about 7% of those voting. It would also seal the fate of about 20 LD MPs.

    Because we don't wear blue tinted glasses
    Nor do we wear yellow tinted glasses so we do not view the data as thinking that the 16% of Conservatives who thought the poster campaign as racist or 24% of Conservatives who thought it stupid/offensive would suddenly switch to LD . That would seal the fate of several hundred Conservative MPs

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,226
    @Plato - I see it as less 'knocking-up', more the judicious exercise of electoral droit du seigneur.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I get the impression that Mr Greenslade is a bit miffed that the Sun is taking this approach - the Times has 332, 146 subscribers this week according to its banner. I don't know the breakdown of full paper et al vs £2pw subs, but its a substantial number of paywallers.

    Anecdotally, I'm finding rather a lot of others on Twitter with accounts - and several journos have stopped prefacing stories with £.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Mr. M, leaving aside the, ahem, significant role the financial sector played in the recession Brown ran a deficit for several years before it hit, borrowing £153bn during a boom.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,395
    ScottP: don't understand your comment that Ed is eroding the left-LD grouping. It's why we're nudging up to 40% again. In general your comments are too partisan to bother with.

    John O: I think there was an element of froth in Labour's score when it was at 42-43%, and you're right that it's gone. The remainder are mostly not really interested in the Tories triumphing over 1% GDP growth or whatever while Cameron is in his anti-UKIP baby-eating mode. There is also a non-froth element to UKIP. I think you'll find it hard to get them down to 5%, especially with the Euros in 2014. Oddly, you might be best off if Labour wins the Euros - deflates UKIP and helps you build the "stop them!" narrative.

    Financier: I'm not at all worried that Unite might leave Labour, or Ed might be defeated at the conference - that's not how Labour politics works, as John O notes. There is a certain ritual element to these things, a bit like family rows where everyone knows the family is staying together in the end. In particular I'm not worried about finance for 2015 - I won't go into it but it'll work out (the longer term is trickier, but we'll worry about that later). There is a risk that the public will think us self-preoccupied by the conference, and a potential that it will enable us to take the news agenda - doubt if either effect will last into 2015.





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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato and Mark Senior, the other factor that I do wonder about is the Lib Dem "swing back" that they had achieved at previous GEs from the NOTA voters. This was I guess circa 3% to 5% of the LD votes, but as part of the Govt, why would protest votes go back to the party that was .. in ... Govt?

    Indeed - habit? That LDs were still marginally better as a NOTA Party compared to the others if an indy wasn't on the ballot?

    The LDs have also made quite a point of being in HMG and in Oppo at the same time. How they frame this will be interesting messaging.
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    Plato said:

    Plato and Mark Senior, the other factor that I do wonder about is the Lib Dem "swing back" that they had achieved at previous GEs from the NOTA voters. This was I guess circa 3% to 5% of the LD votes, but as part of the Govt, why would protest votes go back to the party that was .. in ... Govt?

    Indeed - habit? That LDs were still marginally better as a NOTA Party compared to the others if an indy wasn't on the ballot?
    The LDs have also made quite a point of being in HMG and in Oppo at the same time. How they frame this will be interesting messaging.
    There was some previous analysis that after each GE the LDs lost most of their GE vote and then had to fight to get them back in the following years. In essence their GE vote was the most detatched and had the smallest "core" as a share of their GE vote, compared to the main two parties. After 3 years there is no sign that these voters are coming back, but there are 22 months left.
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    Why not view the data in the article as the fact that up to 31% of the infamous 2010 LDs could vote Conservative and not LD because of the LD stance on immigration? That is about 7% of those voting. It would also seal the fate of about 20 LD MPs.

    Because we don't wear blue tinted glasses
    Nor do we wear yellow tinted glasses so we do not view the data as thinking that the 16% of Conservatives who thought the poster campaign as racist or 24% of Conservatives who thought it stupid/offensive would suddenly switch to LD . That would seal the fate of several hundred Conservative MPs
    Mark, immigration is the 2nd biggest concern of voters. You and Labour are on the wrong side of the argument. So be it.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Mr. M, leaving aside the, ahem, significant role the financial sector played in the recession Brown ran a deficit for several years before it hit, borrowing £153bn during a boom.

    And Spain ran surpluses until it went pop (to an even greater degree than the UK).

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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    tim said:

    I always find it strange that given their age profile UKIP supporters have so little interest in health.

    That jump in Health (diff vs July 1/2) - across the board, except for.......

    Issues Facing Country - Health:
    OA: 41 (+10)
    Con: 35 (+12)
    Lab: 50 (+10)
    LibD: 49 (+21)
    UKIP: 24 (+3)

    Immigration is more important than life itself to Tory-UKIP switchers

    UKIP voters are not rational.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    'I don't really think the Tories wanted 111 on the front pages followed by Osbornes twit of a father in law.'

    We've had Labour's version of Carl Pilkington on TV for the best part of a week,defending his party's record on the NHS & the poll gap narrows to 3%.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BenM said:

    tim said:

    I always find it strange that given their age profile UKIP supporters have so little interest in health.

    That jump in Health (diff vs July 1/2) - across the board, except for.......

    Issues Facing Country - Health:
    OA: 41 (+10)
    Con: 35 (+12)
    Lab: 50 (+10)
    LibD: 49 (+21)
    UKIP: 24 (+3)

    Immigration is more important than life itself to Tory-UKIP switchers

    UKIP voters are not rational.
    Their votes count the same as clever and educated leftie ones though - thankfully :)
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    http://t.co/WRIvgDEdWi

    I still can't see what's particularly racist about the poster. Surely only illegals need be "offended"?
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    stodgestodge Posts: 13,110
    Morning all :)

    Fascinating to read two virulently anti-LD posters discussing the minutiae of the LD vote. It has always been the softest of votes and I recall even when I lived in the LD heartland of Sutton that 12-18 months out from a GE, we would get really worried about where the vote was and whether it would come back - usually after the poor European Parliamentary or LGA elections.

    It would be especially hard work for people moving into the Borough who were more often than not Tory or Labour supporters and had never seen anything in the way of LD activity on the ground.

    The Conservative and Labour parties have always enjoyed a core vote of around 30% each who will always vote for them whatever policies they advocated. I suspect that in the same way as much of the LD vote is an anti-Conservative AND anti-Labour vote, the Conservative vote was more than anything else an anti-Labour vote and vice-versa.

    Certainly, when I look on here, the anti-Labour vitriol is astonishing and far in excess of anything I hear out in the real world. I strongly suspect most people haven't passed any kind of judgement on Ed Miliband as a potential Prime Minister at this time. Some on here had made up their minds as soon as he became Labour leader or was it simply a reflex action because he was leader of the Labour party ?

    It could therefore be argued that the 2015 GE will be primarily about which party can come up with more scares, threats and innuendo aimed at persuading the voters of the dangers of voting for its principal opponent and therefore the "you can't trust the other lot, stick with us" mantra will be the theme from this autumn for the next 20 months.

    Not brilliant but that's how democratic politics seems to function.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Populus @PopulusPolls
    New Populus #MPpanel research finds 32% of MPs would support shale gas #fracking in their constituency, but 43% would say no.
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    RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    Foot in Mouth time for the Conservative Grid again:

    "Grant Shapps will today take aim at Labour's predictions about growth, crime and unemployment, claiming Ed Miliband's party "loves doing Britain down"

    Now you don't need to be a rocket science to ask the following question when he finishes his speech at Policy Exchange - "Grant, you say Ed M is doing down Britain, can you remember which party ran the campaign "Broken Britain" ".

    Maybe another one of the "get on the front foot during recess" ideas?
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    RedRag1 said:

    Foot in Mouth time for the Conservative Grid again:

    "Grant Shapps will today take aim at Labour's predictions about growth, crime and unemployment, claiming Ed Miliband's party "loves doing Britain down"

    Now you don't need to be a rocket science to ask the following question when he finishes his speech at Policy Exchange - "Grant, you say Ed M is doing down Britain, can you remember which party ran the campaign "Broken Britain" ".

    Maybe another one of the "get on the front foot during recess" ideas?

    And he would be very happy to take that question. And answer it in full.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    RedRag1 said:

    Foot in Mouth time for the Conservative Grid again:

    "Grant Shapps will today take aim at Labour's predictions about growth, crime and unemployment, claiming Ed Miliband's party "loves doing Britain down"

    Now you don't need to be a rocket science to ask the following question when he finishes his speech at Policy Exchange - "Grant, you say Ed M is doing down Britain, can you remember which party ran the campaign "Broken Britain" ".

    Maybe another one of the "get on the front foot during recess" ideas?

    Lol - hope you are on the campaign team :)
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    http://t.co/WRIvgDEdWi

    I still can't see what's particularly racist about the poster. Surely only illegals need be "offended"?

    it doesn't need to be racist to be undermining.

    as a native briton, probably you don't feel it, but if like myself you're only a beaurocrats stamp away from either deportation or permanent residence, there is a slight insecurity, always present. If a poster campaign subtly ups the temperature of anti immigrant feeling (to be sure most people who like this poster are not only unhappy about levels of illegal immigration) it makes that insecurity worse. So if you have a choice of countries to take your high level of education and professional skills,maybe you are going to choose somewhere else other than britain.

    This and the talk of tourist bonds surely can't be good for the economy in the long run
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    BenM said:

    tim said:

    I always find it strange that given their age profile UKIP supporters have so little interest in health.

    That jump in Health (diff vs July 1/2) - across the board, except for.......

    Issues Facing Country - Health:
    OA: 41 (+10)
    Con: 35 (+12)
    Lab: 50 (+10)
    LibD: 49 (+21)
    UKIP: 24 (+3)

    Immigration is more important than life itself to Tory-UKIP switchers

    UKIP voters are not rational.
    You'll be calling them swivel eyed loons next......

    What is clear is that UKIP voters priorities are different from those of the established parties.

    They view immigration (82) as more important than the economy (53) vs 66/50 overall. They also see immigration affecting their family (36 - ranked #3) - more than twice as much as any other group (Tories closest on 15 - ranked #5 equal).

    On Health they view that as a worry for their family (38) more than the country (24) - everyone else views it the other way round (38:41).

    And of course on Europe, they are in a league of their own (country/family) (OA): 40/26 (12/6).
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    stodgestodge Posts: 13,110
    I have to say all this nonsense about "talking down Britain" is ludicrous. An opposition party is there to oppose and to be critical of the Government's policy. Given that said Government is the representative of the British people, inevitably criticism might be viewed as "talking down" the country.

    Which of course it isn't.

    No Government has a mandate not to be opposed in a democratic society. I am also entirely convinced that the Labour Party and those who support it love this country every bit as much as Conservative, Liberal Democrat or UKIP supporters or those not supporting any party.

    It's also not just about the mandatory effusive tweet every time a British sportsman does well or a royal baby is born. Loving your country takes many forms - I can enjoy walking in rural Shropshire or admire London on a summer's evening. It doesn't make me blind to its faults and imperfections and nor does it make me angry when said imperfections are left to fester.

    Politics should be about being honest about the areas of our life and society where we aren't doing well enough and whether that's injustice, homelessness or the hundreds of commuters squeezed like cattle on the 6.32 from London to Guildford and paying fortunes for the privilege, we should be about trying to improve and make better and not shout down those who point out the problems.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I see the LDs are releasing a pocket sized guide to their achievements in govt....

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    @Stodge

    And Shapps is merely throwing back all the crap Labour threw at the Tories and Balls in particular here.

    It was Labour who started this mud-slinging and revelled in it. Now they're getting it back and until they find something compelling to say the media will run with it.

    All fair in love and war blah blah.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    But there's also a subset of more ordinary people who voted LibDem in 2010, as a compromise between what they saw as Labour profligacy and incompetence, and the over-austere Conservative alternative. Such voters don't necessarily think like LibDem activists, and don't necessarily like hugging illegal immigrant: those are the sort who switched to UKIP in Eastleigh.

    The Conservatives can't and won't attract the former sort whatever they do, but they can attract some of the latter.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    tim said:

    http://t.co/WRIvgDEdWi

    I still can't see what's particularly racist about the poster. Surely only illegals need be "offended"?

    it doesn't need to be racist to be undermining.

    as a native briton, probably you don't feel it, but if like myself you're only a beaurocrats stamp away from either deportation or permanent residence, there is a slight insecurity, always present. If a poster campaign subtly ups the temperature of anti immigrant feeling (to be sure most people who like this poster are not only unhappy about levels of illegal immigration) it makes that insecurity worse. So if you have a choice of countries to take your high level of education and professional skills,maybe you are going to choose somewhere else other than britain.

    This and the talk of tourist bonds surely can't be good for the economy in the long run
    Well said.
    The Tories message on students, tourist bonds, "health tourism" "benefit tourism" Go Home vans all stacks up to a message of xenophobia that Cameron was supposed to have rejected in 2005.
    It does huge economic damage and besmirches the country abroad.
    And among decent people here.

    "Go home" only if you're illegal, tim?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,395
    edited July 2013

    http://t.co/WRIvgDEdWi

    I still can't see what's particularly racist about the poster. Surely only illegals need be "offended"?

    I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se, but it suggests that there is particular concern about illegal immigration (yes, it's obviously about immigration, though the word isn't used) in the area where the van is touring. Not burglary, not assault, not rape - none of these things have caused enough concern to warrant a touring van. Illegal immigration. Now if you're a legal immigrant or descended from one, you could reasonably expect that this concern could result in tiresome harassment. People calling the police to report that there's a dodgy chap (you) at number 14, better check it out. Police demanding to see your papers. Sure, you'll be able to satisfy them, but apparently the focus is on people who look like YOU as the problem.

    At the same time, you sense that this isn't actually intended to address the problem, since illegal immigrants know the score and are hardly likely to react to a passing van. It is clearly a political stunt to show that the Government is Worried About Illegal Foreigners. It's not exactly wrong, but it's alienating. You're British. The Government is supposed to be about you too. Why are they posturing like this? Oh, to get votes. Sigh.

    That, as fairly as I can as I can put it, is the reason why many people find it unpleasant. Not racist. Not illegal. But alienating.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    A YouGov on Manning/Snowdon that won't make the front page of the Guardian:

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/31/manning-and-snowden-send-both-prison/

    A majority of Americans want Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden to serve time in prison, though the public is slightly more forgiving to Snowden
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,233

    Though it was time someone exposed Toby Young for what he is I thought Stella's talent was misdirected on that particular subject. It's the nature of twitter that it encourages puerile comments from puerile people and the fact that spotty twelve year old boys are sending obscene tweets shouldn't exercise any MP's time.

    On the other hand exposing Toby for what he is is a service but probably best not as part of a clean up twitter campaign.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Eric's war on parking - is this the new dog crap battleground in local politics but waged from Whitehall?

    RT @EricPickles: New DCLG statistics show councils making £635 million net PROFIT from #parking in 2013-14 (+5.6%) bit.ly/15uXGDH
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Another strong column on why we should be fracking for our lives

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10211889/Britain-is-playing-catch-up-to-the-US-manufacturing-boom.html

    "Remarkably, the US manufacturing renaissance isn’t the result of a grand scheme or costly stimulus package dreamt up in Washington. Rather, it is a pure free market triumph, the unintended consequence of enlightened policy decisions on energy"

    "Thanks to a much more benign attitude than that seen in our paranoid, anti-growth Britain, US shale gas and oil output has grown more than 50pc annually since 2007, creating jobs and driving down costs. In its latest report, McKinsey, the consultancy, calculates that shale could bolster US GDP by $690bn (£450bn) a year and create 1.7m jobs across the economy by 2020, and not just in energy-intensive industries. "

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    'Vote UKIP---get more of what you want'

    Except that the truth is 'Vote UKIP - get none of what you want'
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Ross Hawkins @rosschawkins
    (My timeline suggests folk are finding ways of satirising the idea of a Lib Dem Pocket book of achievements)
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I've just won my 1st Hortence Troll badge - YEAH.

    I am now One of Them!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    How 'diverse' is your neck of the woods, Jonathan?

    (In case you're wondering, Ilford North was only 44% white British in 2011)
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,233
    edited July 2013
    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    'Vote UKIP---get more of what you want'

    Except that the truth is 'Vote UKIP - get none of what you want'
    They want Cameron out, they get what they want by voting UKIP
    And a Tory leader who won't let the Bulgarians in rather than one who will recommend a yes vote.

    Isn't that what they think, it's perfectly logical.

    Only tim knows the mind of the Kippers.

    In truth - vote Farage - get Drenge.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    How 'diverse' is your neck of the woods, Jonathan?

    (In case you're wondering, Ilford North was only 44% white British in 2011)
    Golly, Horsham is absolutely packed with immigrants - really it is just like Brick Lane.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Roger and four advertising friends at lunch...wow..can you imagine the conversation..
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    Roger said:

    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they found it laughable.

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.

    As I said earlier, I don't find it offensive. So it's OK to be in this country illegally, Roger?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Spot the politician who doesn't do his own tweets

    RT @CallumIJones: "Do you get a lot of abuse on Twitter?" @MattChorley asks @nick_clegg <<< He says "probably"
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,233
    edited July 2013
    @Plato

    "I've just won my 1st Hortence Troll badge - YEAH."

    Well done! I always thought it an injustice that you've been trolling for so many years without recognition.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,395
    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
    Visited Brighton and Hove lately? Lots of hen's teeth. The Labour problem there is that we're maybe not left-wing enough. But we should win two or three of the seats just the same.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Rich media leftie luvvie white people find all sorts of things offensive.


    Steven Fry had them nailed:

    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f*****g what.”


    ― Stephen Fry
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Mr. Roger, I must say that's utter tosh.

    There is nothing racist about asking people to desist in crime (the crime in this instance being their illegal presence in the UK).
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Jonathan said:

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.

    Sussex Tories are actually very well informed on the political salience of concerns over illegal immigration and also welfare, given that they have lost councillors to UKIP in the coastal belt and have a tough fight on their hands in seats like Hastings & Rye.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,654
    Off-topic:

    One area of law I would really like to see examined is Right-to-die. Sadly, there's been another knockback.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23506186

    Any law would need to be exceptionally well-written and clear (yes, I know). But the idea that people in real and genuine pain or severe disability have to continue suffering does not seem just.

    The rumours and allegations are that such things are sometimes happening by the back door, without anyone knowing. That is much more open to abuse than good legislation.
  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Mr. Roger, I must say that's utter tosh.

    There is nothing racist about asking people to desist in crime (the crime in this instance being their illegal presence in the UK).

    As a pedant, Mr Dancer, I must note that the crime is, rather, entering the country illegally or failing to leave the country, rather than strictly *being* in the country illegally.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Spot on Roger.

    Labour should never let itself be out-manouvered by the LDs attacking the Tories. EdM should have been onto this fast.

    What's the point in having an official opposition if it doesn't oppose?
    Roger said:

    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084

    Jonathan said:

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.

    Sussex Tories are actually very well informed on the political salience of concerns over illegal immigration and also welfare, given that they have lost councillors to UKIP in the coastal belt and have a tough fight on their hands in seats like Hastings & Rye.
    In any regard you might care to drag up in your defence their experience is no different from Liberal Democrats.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
    Visited Brighton and Hove lately? Lots of hen's teeth. The Labour problem there is that we're maybe not left-wing enough. But we should win two or three of the seats just the same.

    Come on now, when a Labourite tries to make a county point by rubbishing another, he's asking for it when he's in a tiny minority of voters.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rich media leftie luvvie white people find all sorts of things offensive.


    Steven Fry had them nailed:

    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f*****g what.”


    ― Stephen Fry


    Best not vote for the PM who ordered an investigation into Rihannas corset then
    Looks like Rihanna's successfully banned her own picture!

    http://news.sky.com/story/1122615/rihanna-wins-topshop-image-rights-fight
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Mr. Grandiose, but if one is in the country that is the same as failing to leave it, surely?
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rich media leftie luvvie white people find all sorts of things offensive.


    Steven Fry had them nailed:

    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f*****g what.”


    ― Stephen Fry


    Best not vote for the PM who ordered an investigation into Rihannas corset then
    Are you auditioning for the Lynton role at Labour HQ ? You seem to have a knack of identifying the issues that the nation really cares about.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Spot on Roger.

    Labour should never let itself be out-manouvered by the LDs attacking the Tories. EdM should have been onto this fast.

    What's the point in having an official opposition if it doesn't oppose?

    Roger said:

    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.


    I thought Ed was on holiday and you had to ask Mrs M's permission to speak to him on the phone ?

    He's been wedged - again.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    EdM knows that actually his own voters particularly in the Mids and North aren't appalled by it at all?

    You think they're terrible, so does Roger and his advertising friends.

    Given the YouGov polling - you aren't in tune with the majority of the public.

    Spot on Roger.

    Labour should never let itself be out-manouvered by the LDs attacking the Tories. EdM should have been onto this fast.

    What's the point in having an official opposition if it doesn't oppose?

    Roger said:

    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,306

    Spot on Roger.

    Labour should never let itself be out-manouvered by the LDs attacking the Tories. EdM should have been onto this fast.

    What's the point in having an official opposition if it doesn't oppose?

    Roger said:

    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.

    Labour have nothing to gain by attacking the Conservatives from the left, on immigration.

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101

    Neil said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    Plato said:

    Reading through this thread, it's left me wondering why the Greens aren't doing much better.
    Big chunk of lefties protestors available,lots of leftish policies, party unsullied by power so ideal for purists, established home for protest voters. UKIP have picked up more dissatisfied LDs than the Greens . Have the Greens just thrown in the towel or is something else at play ?

    Greenies and Kippers disagree violently over AGW and windfarms - I can't imagine many swapping sides on that basis alone.
    .

    Unlike Tory voters who decamp to UKIP Lib Dem voters understand FPTP
    daft statement tim. Mid term you would expect all the protest parties to be at their zenith. Votes don't really start to concentrate until the last 6 months before the GE.
    Obviously you have a point there and I have money on UKIP 5-10%.
    But the scale of the Tory membership loss, many to UKIP is not the usual impact of a protest vote, it's damaging the Tories on the ground.
    If even UKIP can get votes from the LDs why can't the Greens
    I was under the impression that the Greens were picking up similar levels of 2010 Lib Dems. I'm sure someone can check (I can't right now).
    Nope: 2010 Lib Dems:
    Con: 12
    Lab: 32
    Lib Dem: 39
    UKIP: 9
    Green: 3
    SNP/PC: 2
    Those figures are NOT CORRECT , they do not include the Won't Vote and Don't Knows ( in this poll 26% ) so the correct figures are roughly
    Con 9
    Lab 24
    LD 30
    UKIP 7
    Others 4
    DK/WV 26
    Fair comment - but the original point stands- 2010 Lib Dems are ~3 times as likely to go UKIP as Green.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak
    Ex-Tory co-treasurer Peter Cruddas wins £180,000 in libel damages over Sunday Times allegation he charged £250,000 to meet David Cameron
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713

    Spot on Roger.

    Labour should never let itself be out-manouvered by the LDs attacking the Tories. EdM should have been onto this fast.

    What's the point in having an official opposition if it doesn't oppose?

    Roger said:

    @Nick


    "I don't get especially worked up about it and think we've discussed it to death. But to respond - it's not racist per se"

    You're being far too kind Nick. I had lunch with four advertising friends completely non political and for the first time ever there was unanimity. All thought it so shocking they just laughed!

    You'd have to be a complete imbecile (or a racist) not to realize what is offensive about it. I heard Nick Clegg do a very good demolition job on them.

    Why isn't Ed speaking out? That's the real offense.

    Because Ed/Labour is terrified of being shown to be weak on those three pillars labour is already seen as weak on.

    Crosby is causing a panic in labour circles, as seen by their hapless determination to 'get' him.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
    Visited Brighton and Hove lately? Lots of hen's teeth. The Labour problem there is that we're maybe not left-wing enough. But we should win two or three of the seats just the same.

    Come on now, when a Labourite tries to make a county point by rubbishing another, he's asking for it when he's in a tiny minority of voters.
    (1) You clearly didn't get the point I was making. The comments Richard make about the LDs could obviously apply to his own party. He has no particular insight into LD voters I am aware of.
    (2) You make some weird assumption that you, I or Richard speak for anyone but ourselves. Our opinions carry an equal weight of one out of 47million voters. None of us represent Sussex in any sense.
    (3) In the only Sussex-wide poll (the recent PCC vote). Labour came second with 41% of the vote. If 41% is as rare as hens teeth. In 2010, on 37% Tories must be very rare indeed.
    (4) You make a big assumption about who I currently would vote for.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,683
    TGOHF said:

    Rich media leftie luvvie white people find all sorts of things offensive.

    Steven Fry had them nailed:

    That would be Stephen Fry, rich, media leftie, luvvie, white person?
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @Jonathon

    "(4) You make a big assumption about who I currently would vote for."

    Really? So you're not a Labour voter? Who said to me at Dirty Dicks "Ed Miliband Ten More Years" ? And certainly was a card carrying Labour Horsham member who commented that I was probably one of their handful of website visitors?

    I'll put you down as Undecided then - right.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    But to respond - it's not racist per se, but it suggests that there is particular concern about illegal immigration (yes, it's obviously about immigration, though the word isn't used) in the area where the van is touring. Not burglary, not assault, not rape - none of these things have caused enough concern to warrant a touring van.

    Really?

    Actually there have been hundreds of advertising campaigns in relation to all sorts of crimes and offences:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rlancefield/2925103807/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-19832682

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-17636839

    http://content.met.police.uk/Campaign/blunt
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,007
    Jonathan said:

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
    Visited Brighton and Hove lately? Lots of hen's teeth. The Labour problem there is that we're maybe not left-wing enough. But we should win two or three of the seats just the same.

    Come on now, when a Labourite tries to make a county point by rubbishing another, he's asking for it when he's in a tiny minority of voters.
    (1) You clearly didn't get the point I was making. The comments Richard make about the LDs could obviously apply to his own party. He has no particular insight into LD voters I am aware of.
    (2) You make some weird assumption that you, I or Richard speak for anyone but ourselves. Our opinions carry an equal weight of one out of 47million voters. None of us represent Sussex in any sense.
    (3) In the only Sussex-wide poll (the recent PCC vote). Labour came second with 41% of the vote. If 41% is as rare as hens teeth. In 2010, on 37% Tories must be very rare indeed.
    (4) You make a big assumption about who I currently would vote for.
    @Jonathan

    You still haven't told us how diverse 'your neck of the woods' is! :)
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2013
    Not just the polls that are drifting..

    http://labourlist.org/2013/07/the-narrowing-polls-are-a-worry-but-worse-labour-mps-fear-theres-a-sense-of-drift/

    "Several MPs have spoken to me about a sense of “drift”, and a lack of clarity from the party leadership. And whilst only a handful of MPs I’ve spoken to are opposed to Miliband’s plans to reform the union-link, I’m not sensing any confidence from within the PLP that Miliband a) has a plan to fund the party’s election campaign post-reform or b) that they sense this is a real vote winner."

    Even more fun however :D

    "The policy will come, we are told. And it will be bold, and radical (think house building, control of energy prices and – perhaps – public rail ownership), but it won’t come yet."

    One nation - East Germany 1970s style.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,148
    Tugendhat loves awarding libel damages almost as much as Eady loves superinjunctions.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,306
    Looking back to the end of last year, Labour were up 8% with ICM, 10-13% with Yougov, 10% with Com Res, and 11% with Populus. There's no doubt that that lead has eroded, notwithstanding an increase in support for UKIP. "Banging on" about immigration and Europe clearly hasn't damaged the Conservatives, although I suspect the main reason for the shift is the improving economic outlook.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Plato said:

    I've just won my 1st Hortence Troll badge - YEAH.

    I am now One of Them!

    What's so important with getting a vote from Ms Rowlands (deceased)?
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Jonathan said:

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    I think Mike has this wrong, for a very simple reason.

    LibDem supporters (like supporters of other parties) are not a homogenous bunch of people with identical views on everything. Amongst them are Guardian-reading, hand-wringing academics and Beeboid types, who probably have no contact with immigrants other than their cleaning ladies and the staff in the coffee shop; they won't vote Tory whatever happens.

    Bold statement coming from a Sussex tory. The blue folk I have come across in our neck of the woods don't exactly impress with their street smarts or first hand experience of immigration.
    Surely Mr Nabavi's views as a Sussex Tory are more representative than yours as a Sussex Labourite. Rare as hens teeth bar in Hastings.
    Visited Brighton and Hove lately? Lots of hen's teeth. The Labour problem there is that we're maybe not left-wing enough. But we should win two or three of the seats just the same.

    Come on now, when a Labourite tries to make a county point by rubbishing another, he's asking for it when he's in a tiny minority of voters.
    (1) You clearly didn't get the point I was making. The comments Richard make about the LDs could obviously apply to his own party. He has no particular insight into LD voters I am aware of.
    (2) You make some weird assumption that you, I or Richard speak for anyone but ourselves. Our opinions carry an equal weight of one out of 47million voters. None of us represent Sussex in any sense.
    (3) In the only Sussex-wide poll (the recent PCC vote). Labour came second with 41% of the vote. If 41% is as rare as hens teeth. In 2010, on 37% Tories must be very rare indeed.
    (4) You make a big assumption about who I currently would vote for.
    @Jonathan

    You still haven't told us how diverse 'your neck of the woods' is! :)
    Assuming Horsham hasn't changed totally from when I worked there and lived up the road - its about as diverse as where I live now. Not at all, unless you count those who run Chinese/Indian and kebab shops.
  • Options
    Plato said:

    I've just won my 1st Hortence Troll badge - YEAH.

    I am now One of Them!

    If it talks like a troll and posts like a troll then it is, by definition, a troll.

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Energy price controls sounds a bit illegal.

    Renationalising the railways should show the world that we are open for business and enterprise.

    titters..
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Tugendhat loves awarding libel damages almost as much as Eady loves superinjunctions.

    Or maybe both are merely doing their best to enforce the will of Parliament and decisions of superior courts which bind them.

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,233
    Morris Dancer

    "There is nothing racist about asking people to desist in crime (the crime in this instance being their illegal presence in the UK)."

    As it doesn't affect anyone without a foreign accent and a non white face I'd expect you to be insensitive to the effect........

    But just imagine you do have a dusky skin and a foreign accent isn't it likely that white people without a foreign accent will start wondering.....Is my neighbour a criminal?

    And those with a foreign accent and dusky skin will wonder 'are those Morris Dancers looking at me and my family suspiciously........'








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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    @TGOHF:

    "There’s a fear that we’re turning inwards to talk about ourselves with an election already on the horizon. As the economy picks up and the Tories feel bullish enough to try and attack Labor on our traditional strength (the NHS) some MPs have begun to fear that the party’s broader strategy isn’t working."

    No! Ed is a strategic genius to spend nearly half the time before the GE on an internal party wrangle that few, if any, voters care about - and all under the cover of a "non-story" too!

    He would have been mad to sort this out two years ago because......well, because.....
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Jonathan said:

    In any regard you might care to drag up in your defence their experience is no different from Liberal Democrats.

    Did I say it was?

    My original point was simply that 2010 LibDem voters were not a homogenous group, and that it is possible (in principle at least) for the Conservatives to appeal to some of them. Not really a controversial point, is it?
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Energy price controls sounds a bit illegal.

    Renationalising the railways should show the world that we are open for business and enterprise.

    titters..


    The East Coast line is nationalised and showing a profit for the taxpayer.
    The West Coast franchise was a disaster for the taxpayer.
    You'll struggle to persuade anyone outside John Majors group of 1930's fantasists that railway privatisation has worked well.
    So you'll be disappointed if full nationalisation of the railways isn't in the 2015 Labour manifesto ?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Mr. Roger, I must point out to you that lots of British are actually non-white. And even lots of British people have 'foreign' accents.

    Nationality and race are not the same thing at all. Immigrants can be of any colour.

    As it happens, my accent may not be quite what you expect.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    Mr. Roger, I must point out to you that lots of British are actually non-white. And even lots of British people have 'foreign' accents.

    Nationality and race are not the same thing at all. Immigrants can be of any colour.

    As it happens, my accent may not be quite what you expect.

    I assumed Klingon was your native tongue... If I'd not met Dr Sunil - ditto.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    Klingon? How very dare you!

    My accent confounded a lady I knew when at university. She thought I was from the south of England, but had no idea which bit.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Energy price controls sounds a bit illegal.

    Renationalising the railways should show the world that we are open for business and enterprise.

    titters..


    The East Coast line is nationalised and showing a profit for the taxpayer.
    The West Coast franchise was a disaster for the taxpayer.
    You'll struggle to persuade anyone outside John Majors group of 1930's fantasists that railway privatisation has worked well.
    So you'll be disappointed if full nationalisation of the railways isn't in the 2015 Labour manifesto ?
    Especially since its the one bit of UNITE policy its members actually support.....(+34% net).....

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Another wedge is hammered in. Labour used this tactic against the Tories many times - now the tide has turned. I don't like it much myself - but it works.

    " Mr Shapps, the Conservative party chairman, will use a speech which sets the tone for Tories’ strategy in the countdown to the 2015 general election.

    He will also say that Labour’s negative outlook is the “single biggest difference” with the Conservatives. The aggressive focus on Labour is further evidence that the Conservatives are increasingly on an election footing.

    In a speech to the Policy Exchange thinktank, he will say: “The sad fact is, Labour loves doing Britain down.In every case it’s almost as if they’ve been willing the country to fail.

    “You could almost see the palpable sense of disappointment for Ed Balls just last week through gritted teeth he acknowledged stronger growth. It’s the single biggest difference between our outlooks.

    “We can see a vision of this country beyond the boom and bust of Brown, a future where we continue to generate employment.”

    The news came as a survey suggests voters are not warming to coalition government and would prefer either the Tories or Labour to win an overall majority in 2015..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10212191/Stop-talking-down-economy-Grant-Shapps-tells-Labour.html
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Klingon? How very dare you!

    My accent confounded a lady I knew when at university. She thought I was from the south of England, but had no idea which bit.

    I'm routinely mistaken for being Welsh - even by Welsh speakers. It's something to do with my vowels. Given I'm an RP Geordie of Lancashire and Irish stock - it's a wonder I'm not from Pakistan!
  • Options
    Plato said:

    Another wedge is hammered in. Labour used this tactic against the Tories many times - now the tide has turned. I don't like it much myself - but it works.

    " Mr Shapps, the Conservative party chairman, will use a speech which sets the tone for Tories’ strategy in the countdown to the 2015 general election.

    He will also say that Labour’s negative outlook is the “single biggest difference” with the Conservatives. The aggressive focus on Labour is further evidence that the Conservatives are increasingly on an election footing.

    In a speech to the Policy Exchange thinktank, he will say: “The sad fact is, Labour loves doing Britain down.In every case it’s almost as if they’ve been willing the country to fail.

    “You could almost see the palpable sense of disappointment for Ed Balls just last week through gritted teeth he acknowledged stronger growth. It’s the single biggest difference between our outlooks.

    “We can see a vision of this country beyond the boom and bust of Brown, a future where we continue to generate employment.”

    The news came as a survey suggests voters are not warming to coalition government and would prefer either the Tories or Labour to win an overall majority in 2015..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10212191/Stop-talking-down-economy-Grant-Shapps-tells-Labour.html


    I think I should have said "If it sounds like a troll and pastes like a troll..."

    Conservative politician says something against Labour in the Daily Telegraph. Shock waves reverberate around the World.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,134
    It's no great surprise that as the Tories go in search of UKIP voters they make it harder for themselves to attract erstwhile LD and Labour voters. Presumably, though, they have factored that in to their calculations. The great merit if swinging to the populist right is that it puts the Tories in their comfort zone. The big drawback is that the Tory comfort zone actively repels as many as it attracts. Thus, it will all come down to turnout. Which of England's two nations will be the more motivated in 2015? For the last 4 GEs it has been the anti-Tory party; Crosby has set himself the task of reviving the anti-Labour coalition of 1992. From 6,000 miles away it looks a tough, but not impossible, task. A hung Parliament with Labour as - marginally - the biggest party still feels like the most likely outcome. But EdM remains a major Labour weakness and that could tip the balance if the Tories can make 2015 a referendum on him.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084

    Jonathan said:

    In any regard you might care to drag up in your defence their experience is no different from Liberal Democrats.

    Did I say it was?

    My original point was simply that 2010 LibDem voters were not a homogenous group, and that it is possible (in principle at least) for the Conservatives to appeal to some of them. Not really a controversial point, is it?
    Your main point was not controversial. Your illustrations were through. You were IMO unfairly dismissive of 2010 LibDem voters with liberal views many of whom have direct experience of immigration.

    Never mind. I hope that you are well and enjoying that rarest of things the British summer.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,125
    A girl at primary school, of whom I have only vague memories, had a weird accent. Her parents were a mixture of cockney, Liverpudlian and something else.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Dear @HortenceWithering

    And you score 10/10. Congrats. Happy trolling - I fear you've already outed yourself since top quality trolling doesn't draw attention to itself, it just nudges subjects into eventual oblivion.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 13,110
    As a regular rail user, I can certainly attest to considerable improvements in many areas. The trains I travel on are much cleaner and more comfortable than 20 years ago and they are generally more reliable. The network is largely safer than before though no one must ever be complacent about that.

    There are however big problems - capacity is one I see every day coming back into Waterloo but the capacity issue can be compounded by poor scheduling. Many commuters travel to and from Surbiton and they want a train that doesn't stop at all the intermediate stations. The 6.32 to Guildford is first stop Surbiton and every one of its 12 coaches is jammed with Surbiton-bound coaches looking for the quickest way home. All South West Trains need to do is introduce a few Surbiton stops on other mainline services to alleviate the issue.

    As for capacity, we have the scandal of the vacated former Eurostar platforms at Waterloo which could be brought back into service and provide additional capacity but no one seems willing or able to do that.

    On the financing, leasing companies like Porterbrook need to be taken out of the hands of the banks and the charges for carriages slashed so train operating companies can get more coaches to alleviate overcrowding. The fares are high because of the question of supply and demand - reducing fares will make overcrowding worse unless additional capacity is provided.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Did
    Plato said:

    Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak
    Ex-Tory co-treasurer Peter Cruddas wins £180,000 in libel damages over Sunday Times allegation he charged £250,000 to meet David Cameron

    Does Ed still want an independent enquiry into this ?
This discussion has been closed.