Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Electoral pacts: the siren voice of destruction for Labour

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Electoral pacts: the siren voice of destruction for Labour

Parties that do badly at elections should always reflect on why that was the case. It’s not an easy question to ask because almost certainly there’ll be tough answers, if the question’s answered honestly.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    1st
    don't forget Corby as well
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Twiddles thumbs

    I guess the libdems found out the hard way out pacts. Maybe the LibLab pact should have reminded them but all in all I thought they didn't do too bad a job in 2010 -15 . They will be cautious again though.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Very good piece Mr Herdson.

    This place has not seen much from labour people today for some reason, perhaps this will stoke them into action.
  • Options
    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David
  • Options
    Moses_ said:

    1st
    don't forget Corby as well

    DUJCA?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    Nick Cohen in the Observer:

    "After Paris, Europe may never feel as free again
    The horrific events in Paris sound the death knell for European liberalism"


    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/after-paris-attacks-europe-never-same-terrorism
  • Options

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Nay-V!!!!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    " The three ‘minor’ parties committed to electoral reform – Liberal Democrats, Greens and UKIP – won over 7 million votes in the 2015 election. A one-off electoral pact with some or all of these parties would likely result in a broad-left coalition government. "

    LOL

    Ahahhahahahahha HAHAHAHAHA

    Can we get our resident UKIP leaning supporters' opinions on this.

    Pretty please !

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    @blackburn63 How do you fancy a pact with Corbyn and Bennett :D ?
  • Options
    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    There wasn't an official pact but the Greens not standing in certain seats almost certainly helped Labour win a few extra seats in the last election.
  • Options

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Pulpstar said:

    @blackburn63 How do you fancy a pact with Corbyn and Bennett :D ?

    My idea of heaven, so much in common

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Artist said:

    There wasn't an official pact but the Greens not standing in certain seats almost certainly helped Labour win a few extra seats in the last election.

    It was only a handful of seats, they could have stood down in many more. I think the Greens did as much to destroy Millibands prospects of no 10 as the SNP.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    @blackburn63 How do you fancy a pact with Corbyn and Bennett :D ?

    The new Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    Saudi Arabia and Qatar would be top of the suspects list methinks.

    Then probably Kuwait and the UAE.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    Various countries and individuals. Allegedly the proceeds of some organised crime in Europe goes to them as well. Aside from that they have proceeds from oil (although I don't know how much - the fields would be an obvious target to take out of commission), which is allegedly smuggled out of the country by much the same people who smuggled Saddam's oil out.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/-sp-islamic-state-oil-empire-iraq-isis

    They even have a banking system:
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-how-isis-keeps-up-its-access-to-the-global-financial-system-2015-3
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Pulpstar said:

    @blackburn63 How do you fancy a pact with Corbyn and Bennett :D ?

    But it's not a pact. It;s an agreement to stand on the basis of no policy and delivering a PR based system (most likely AMS).

    Additionally, countries do well when governments don't deliver policies. The longer there is no policy enacting government the better, so it;s a full 6 months with no government (effectively) which can only help everyone.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Labour has become an irrelevance under Corbyn. Until Corbyn goes, there is little point dissecting any party political discussions in the UK.
  • Options

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    This is a bit old but apparently it's mainly extortion/taxation in areas they control.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finances.html?_r=0

    Some people have been saying there's potential to squeeze countries they're selling oil to and countries that are covertly funding them, but it sounds a bit marginal.
  • Options

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    Captured oil fields.
    Probably fraud and wealthy sunni donors.
    My belief is that these terrorist outrages form no part of a serious strategy for anything, they do it because they can do it. If they had to stop doing it they would have to stop and think about what else to do. But if the perpetrators were capable of stopping and thinking they would realise how absurd they are. Where it leads is hardly a consideration.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    This is a bit old but apparently it's mainly extortion/taxation in areas they control.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finances.html?_r=0

    Some people have been saying there's potential to squeeze countries they're selling oil to and countries that are covertly funding them, but it sounds a bit marginal.
    One of the things I don't understand about ISIS is how they are exploiting oil for cash. Who is buying their oil, and more importantly, how are they delivering oil.

    It makes no sense to me.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Absolutely. ISIS suits the gulf rich monarchies. It is absolutely in their interests to make sure the Wahibi nut jobs are pissing outwards instead of creating bedlam for these families internally. The Saudi Royalists despise the theistic nut jobs running the legal system as much as any of us, but they need them to keep them the Islamists at bay.
    Pulpstar said:

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    Saudi Arabia and Qatar would be top of the suspects list methinks.

    Then probably Kuwait and the UAE.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    Captured oil fields.
    Probably fraud and wealthy sunni donors.
    My belief is that these terrorist outrages form no part of a serious strategy for anything, they do it because they can do it. If they had to stop doing it they would have to stop and think about what else to do. But if the perpetrators were capable of stopping and thinking they would realise how absurd they are. Where it leads is hardly a consideration.
    Captured oil fields don't spurt out cash.

    You have to remove the oil (which usually requires skilled personnel almost entirely from Europe and America. You then have to deliver the oil to those who are buying it.

    The only rational explanation would be if they are Laundering the oil through Saudi Arabia (which they don't have a border with), Jordan or Iran. Whichever of these it is, then surely the Security Services of the West must know who and how,
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    This is a bit old but apparently it's mainly extortion/taxation in areas they control.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finances.html?_r=0

    Some people have been saying there's potential to squeeze countries they're selling oil to and countries that are covertly funding them, but it sounds a bit marginal.
    One of the things I don't understand about ISIS is how they are exploiting oil for cash. Who is buying their oil, and more importantly, how are they delivering oil.

    It makes no sense to me.
    ''Though many believe that Isis relies on exports for its oil revenue, it profits from its captive markets closer to home in the rebel-held territories of northern Syria and in its self-proclaimed “caliphate”, which straddles the border between Syria and Iraq.''
    http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,126
    Last post on the fall of the Roman Empire, Rome only fell because it was surrounded by hostile populations it occupied in Europe, Germany was full of Barbarian Huns, France and Britain the Celts etc and eventually they were overwhelmed. Even today Muslims make up less than 10% of the western population, extremist Muslims even less, so while they can launch terrorist attacks they are not going to overthrow civilization
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,884
    One of terrorists was a 15 year old Egyptian - ITN
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,126
    tyson said:

    Labour has become an irrelevance under Corbyn. Until Corbyn goes, there is little point dissecting any party political discussions in the UK.

    Indeed, Labour has almost no chance at the next election, its best option is for Hilary Benn to become a Michael Howard figure and make modest progress and then for Chuka Ummuna to take over post defeat. Trying to scrape into power through the back door is not the answer and will be defeated as badly in 2020 as it was in 2015
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    " The three ‘minor’ parties committed to electoral reform – Liberal Democrats, Greens and UKIP – won over 7 million votes in the 2015 election. A one-off electoral pact with some or all of these parties would likely result in a broad-left coalition government. "

    LOL

    Ahahhahahahahha HAHAHAHAHA

    Can we get our resident UKIP leaning supporters' opinions on this.

    Pretty please !

    Certainly a very good reason not to vote UKIP if they suggested it.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    The oil they (ISIS) sell, is chicken feed compared to the funds they (ISIS) get from the gulf states... Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE- it suits them all to have ISIS running amok away from their own, oil rich, territories. Qatar is willing to put 200 billion to run a sports tournament purely for self interest- funding ISIS is a fraction of the cost, but has many more benefits.
    Dair said:

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    This is a bit old but apparently it's mainly extortion/taxation in areas they control.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finances.html?_r=0

    Some people have been saying there's potential to squeeze countries they're selling oil to and countries that are covertly funding them, but it sounds a bit marginal.
    One of the things I don't understand about ISIS is how they are exploiting oil for cash. Who is buying their oil, and more importantly, how are they delivering oil.

    It makes no sense to me.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,199
    I think I've said this before, but when I was doing A Level politics (2003-05) one of my (left wing) tutors was very keen on electoral reform. He used to say to me that FPTP hurt the Tories and that in 2001 the Tories got 25% of the seats for 32% of the vote.

    I suspected that he took the view that there would always be an anti Tory majority under PR and that it would effectively block the Tories from power forever more. After 2010 I did wonder if the Tories would ever win a majority again, but how different do things look in 2015? I suspect my old tutor wouldn't be so keen on PR with Ukip - who, unlike the Lib Dems, don't have an inflated vote share due to tactical voting - winning 3.9 million votes.
  • Options


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
  • Options
    On topic, formal pacts are probably a bad idea for the reasons given but there's plenty of room for low-key local cooperation, and it might be worth the leadership making some noises to the effect that the Tories are the real enemy and local parties shouldn't feel disloyal for making quiet deals where it makes sense.
  • Options
    Lib Dem battle about to get worse?

    http://www.markpack.org.uk/135590/lib-dem-special-conference-called-in-showdown-over-chris-rennard-but-will-it-happen/

    "More than the necessary 200 signatures have been gathered and the party’s Federal Conference Committee (FCC) has started planning for holding the special conference."
    "If the conference does go ahead, it is likely to debate a motion to remove the Lib Dem Lords group’s representatives on the party’s federal committees."
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,984


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
  • Options
    It seems bizarre, rather than try and persuade voters let us have a pact/change the system.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    runnymede said:

    I wonder which of the following things may have happened by the end of the week;

    channel tunnel closed
    Schengen suspended
    Cameron arguing Paris incident shows need for more surveillance powers
    Diverse EU functionaries arguing Paris incident shows need for 'more Europe'

    Pan-Euopean police networks and arrest warrants are one advantage that the EU brings. We need to co-operate with our neighbours to defeat these pan national neighbours.

    Indeed the suspension of Schengen makes some of Daves renegotiations more likely to be successful.
    Cooperating with other countries to combat crime sounds awfully like what Interpol do.
    Pan European arrest warrants help too.

    We can pull together with our friends in Europe or we can pull apart. I think that the challenge of Islamist terror is a reason to stay in the EU, not one to leave.
    Pull apart? It is possible to cooperate with the countries in the EU without having to hand over the considerable amount of power required to make EUROPOL work.

    I get the impression that you prefer supranationalism to intergovernmentalism.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    I think I've said this before, but when I was doing A Level politics (2003-05) one of my (left wing) tutors was very keen on electoral reform. He used to say to me that FPTP hurt the Tories and that in 2001 the Tories got 25% of the seats for 32% of the vote.

    In England at GE2005, Howard got more votes than Blair, but ended up with 92 fewer English seats.
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
    The other key moment was 1683, Ottoman Siege of Vienna.
    King of Poland, John II Sobieski came to the rescue.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,199

    tlg86 said:

    I think I've said this before, but when I was doing A Level politics (2003-05) one of my (left wing) tutors was very keen on electoral reform. He used to say to me that FPTP hurt the Tories and that in 2001 the Tories got 25% of the seats for 32% of the vote.

    In England at GE2005, Howard got more votes than Blair, but ended up with 92 fewer English seats.
    In the back of my mind I had an idea that it would all work out to the Tories' advantage. Labour got drunk on the big majorities given to it by FPTP and it led to a complacency under Ed. They still haven't woken up to the extent of the defeat they suffered in May.
  • Options
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    runnymede said:

    I wonder which of the following things may have happened by the end of the week;

    channel tunnel closed
    Schengen suspended
    Cameron arguing Paris incident shows need for more surveillance powers
    Diverse EU functionaries arguing Paris incident shows need for 'more Europe'

    Pan-Euopean police networks and arrest warrants are one advantage that the EU brings. We need to co-operate with our neighbours to defeat these pan national neighbours.

    Indeed the suspension of Schengen makes some of Daves renegotiations more likely to be successful.
    Cooperating with other countries to combat crime sounds awfully like what Interpol do.
    Pan European arrest warrants help too.

    We can pull together with our friends in Europe or we can pull apart. I think that the challenge of Islamist terror is a reason to stay in the EU, not one to leave.
    Pull apart? It is possible to cooperate with the countries in the EU without having to hand over the considerable amount of power required to make EUROPOL work.

    I get the impression that you prefer supranationalism to intergovernmentalism.
    The EU is finished, ironically it is Merkel that has killed it off.
  • Options
    KippleKipple Posts: 17
    tyson said:

    ISIS suits the gulf rich monarchies.

    Sometimes I wonder if US fracking is a quiet revenge against the Saudis for whatever 9/11 involvement they had.
  • Options
    isam said:


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
    isam got banned for that???
  • Options
    tyson said:

    The oil they (ISIS) sell, is chicken feed compared to the funds they (ISIS) get from the gulf states... Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE- it suits them all to have ISIS running amok away from their own, oil rich, territories. Qatar is willing to put 200 billion to run a sports tournament purely for self interest- funding ISIS is a fraction of the cost, but has many more benefits.

    Dair said:

    Question that I should know the answer to, I've read things but not entirely sure if true, but who funds ISIS? Can we not hack into ISIS bank accounts, stop the funds reaching them etc?

    And if it is known who funds them, why not cut off relations with them?

    This is a bit old but apparently it's mainly extortion/taxation in areas they control.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finances.html?_r=0

    Some people have been saying there's potential to squeeze countries they're selling oil to and countries that are covertly funding them, but it sounds a bit marginal.
    One of the things I don't understand about ISIS is how they are exploiting oil for cash. Who is buying their oil, and more importantly, how are they delivering oil.

    It makes no sense to me.
    Are you so sure of that? ISIS control a large area and they administer it and tax it.
    I say 'administer', but what this means for instance is that each family must produce one conscript for fighting on pain of 80 lashes or worse.
    Wealthy individual sunni donors will give them money as well. They will have access to banks in the areas they control and other cash generating businesses. They will have access to donations and arms passed over to other rebels who have been themselves overrun or absorbed under their branding.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Kipper pogroms :) ?
  • Options

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    You're welcome. It was going to be the morning piece until overtaken by events. A two-party system would , of course, do away with the need for AV.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    For the umpteenth time, IS' largest source of funding is its own activities.

    The Saudis have very helpfully popped up and said they warned several European countries that an attack was imminent. If thats as specific as the warning got it was in chocolate teapot territory.

    I see the French police have lifted the father and brother of one of the attackers.

  • Options

    Dair said:

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
    The other key moment was 1683, Ottoman Siege of Vienna.
    King of Poland, John II Sobieski came to the rescue.
    Not forgetting the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 which broke the power of the Ottomans as a maritime force. It effectively ended Ottoman expansion across the Mediterranean.

  • Options

    isam said:


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
    isam got banned for that???
    Really? He has been banned? Even TSE isn't that pathetic.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Greece saying 2 of the attackers passed through Greece.........
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @blackburn63 How do you fancy a pact with Corbyn and Bennett :D ?

    But it's not a pact. It;s an agreement to stand on the basis of no policy and delivering a PR based system (most likely AMS).

    Additionally, countries do well when governments don't deliver policies. The longer there is no policy enacting government the better, so it;s a full 6 months with no government (effectively) which can only help everyone.
    Sometimes events force you to have a policy. Like how to react to the Paris attacks, for example.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Shame on you :-)
  • Options

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    You're welcome. It was going to be the morning piece until overtaken by events. A two-party system would , of course, do away with the need for AV.
    It would, it would also change the dynamics in Scotland.

    As it stands FPTP is indefensible, all those Greens, Kippers and Lib Dems with so few MPs
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2015
    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    tyson said:

    Labour has become an irrelevance under Corbyn. Until Corbyn goes, there is little point dissecting any party political discussions in the UK.

    Apologies if I am confusing you with someone else.

    I thought when Corbyn got the job you were happy?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,687

    Dair said:

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
    The other key moment was 1683, Ottoman Siege of Vienna.
    King of Poland, John II Sobieski came to the rescue.
    Not forgetting the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 which broke the power of the Ottomans as a maritime force. It effectively ended Ottoman expansion across the Mediterranean.

    There was a programme on R4 about that on Thursday.
  • Options
    Y0kel said:

    For the umpteenth time, IS' largest source of funding is its own activities.

    The Saudis have very helpfully popped up and said they warned several European countries that an attack was imminent. If thats as specific as the warning got it was in chocolate teapot territory.

    I see the French police have lifted the father and brother of one of the attackers.

    According to a 2015 study by the Financial Action Task Force, ISIL's five primary sources of revenue are as followed (listed in order of significance):

    * proceeds from the occupation of territory (including control of banks, oil and gas reservoirs, taxation, extortion, and robbery of economic assets);
    * kidnapping for ransom;
    * donations from Saudi Arabia and Gulf states, often disguised as meant for "humanitarian charity";
    * material support provided by foreign fighters;
    * fundraising through modern communication networks.[682]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    It will be lower in 2020
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Nick Cohen in the Observer:

    "After Paris, Europe may never feel as free again
    The horrific events in Paris sound the death knell for European liberalism"


    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/after-paris-attacks-europe-never-same-terrorism

    "it's always coming" is sadly true.
  • Options

    isam said:


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
    isam got banned for that???
    Really? He has been banned? Even TSE isn't that pathetic.
    Unless it was his post at 10:07.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,687
    In response to some comments several hundred posts ago about flying in the Shengen zone - when I flew from Billund to Amsterdam the other week I didn't have to show any ID, just a boarding pass.

    I suspect that will have changed.
  • Options

    isam said:


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
    isam got banned for that???
    Really? He has been banned? Even TSE isn't that pathetic.
    Unless it was his post at 10:07.
    Banned for posting a front page?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    isam said:


    TSE giving history lessons?

    LOL

    It also contains the worst pun in PB history.
    Is pun short for punctuation?
    isam got banned for that???
    Really? He has been banned? Even TSE isn't that pathetic.
    I would hope not.

    But it is true that isam has been a bit fixated on TSE for a while now.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,126
    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Mind you several members of the Tory Cabinet used to be members of the SDP, including Greg Clarke, Chris Grayling and Anna Soubry
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Dair said:

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
    The other key moment was 1683, Ottoman Siege of Vienna.
    King of Poland, John II Sobieski came to the rescue.
    Not forgetting the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 which broke the power of the Ottomans as a maritime force. It effectively ended Ottoman expansion across the Mediterranean.

    There was a programme on R4 about that on Thursday.
    In Our Time, a programme that justifies the BBC licence fee all on its own. Did you listen to last week's edition on prime numbers? Melvin Bragg does a great job at facilitating the discussion but he always struggles when it comes to mathematics.
  • Options
    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)
  • Options

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    Ask them how long it's been since France was nuked. Or invaded, indeed.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Mind you several members of the Tory Cabinet used to be members of the SDP, including Greg Clarke, Chris Grayling and Anna Soubry
    Plus Liz Truss who used to be a Lib Dem and, indeed, proposed a motion at an annual conference in the mid-90s calling for the monarchy to be abolished. She's got even more "form" on this than Mr. Corbyn.
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Rather meaningless, Andy, since a lot of previous Lib Dems (apparently) loaned their votes this time to the nice Mr Cameron, when faced with the alternative prospect of a Salmond-dominated Miliband government.

    Since the Labour Party is now a spent force (supposedly), this threat no longer prevails, and people can once again vote safely for the Lib Dems.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,199

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    They also have an aircraft carrier. Maybe they should give that up too.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,501
    Interesting piece. Nat Le Roux is clearly from that part of the left which regards all votes not for the Conservative Party as really belonging to the Labour Party. As 2015 showed, with, amongst other things, the way Lib Dem votes scattered to all rival parties, it's never that simple. That said, there is some precedent, isn't there? I vaguely recall that there were a handful of pairs of seats where Liberals and Conservatives would each stand aside in one to give the other a free run against Labour in the 50s. Bolton West and Bolton East was one example, I think, and there may be others.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,884
    edited November 2015


    I like TSE.

    Is he still a moderator?
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    Your friend is an idiot with a sh*t argument. Try that.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    For the umpteenth time, IS' largest source of funding is its own activities.

    The Saudis have very helpfully popped up and said they warned several European countries that an attack was imminent. If thats as specific as the warning got it was in chocolate teapot territory.

    I see the French police have lifted the father and brother of one of the attackers.

    According to a 2015 study by the Financial Action Task Force, ISIL's five primary sources of revenue are as followed (listed in order of significance):

    * proceeds from the occupation of territory (including control of banks, oil and gas reservoirs, taxation, extortion, and robbery of economic assets);
    * kidnapping for ransom;
    * donations from Saudi Arabia and Gulf states, often disguised as meant for "humanitarian charity";
    * material support provided by foreign fighters;
    * fundraising through modern communication networks.[682]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
    i.e most of it is self generated by its own organisation, not outsiude donors.
  • Options
    Messrs Yokel, Rabbit and 86, I shall use your points.
  • Options

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    "India had nukes at the time of Mumbai in 2008
    Blighty had nukes at the time of 7/7
    Russia had nukes at the time of Beslan
    The US had nukes at the time of 9/11"

    Something like that?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,126

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Mind you several members of the Tory Cabinet used to be members of the SDP, including Greg Clarke, Chris Grayling and Anna Soubry
    Plus Liz Truss who used to be a Lib Dem and, indeed, proposed a motion at an annual conference in the mid-90s calling for the monarchy to be abolished. She's got even more "form" on this than Mr. Corbyn.
    Indeed, David Mundell too. In 2009 there were as many ex SDP members of the Tory Shadow Cabinet as the LD Shadow Cabinet http://www.libdemvoice.org/are-there-more-exsdp-members-on-the-tory-frontbench-than-the-lib-dem-frontbench-10833.html.

    Did not know Truss was a Republican, but there have always been a few in the Tories, normally ardent free marketeers and libertarians
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,687

    Dair said:

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    Once a thread turns to heavy metal even electoral reform seems preferable...
    Just putting the finishing touches on the morning thread.

    Is about giving some PBers and Dave a history lesson.
    About the battle of Tours?
    Charles Martel, the Frenchman who saved Europe?
    The other key moment was 1683, Ottoman Siege of Vienna.
    King of Poland, John II Sobieski came to the rescue.
    Not forgetting the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 which broke the power of the Ottomans as a maritime force. It effectively ended Ottoman expansion across the Mediterranean.

    There was a programme on R4 about that on Thursday.
    In Our Time, a programme that justifies the BBC licence fee all on its own. Did you listen to last week's edition on prime numbers? Melvin Bragg does a great job at facilitating the discussion but he always struggles when it comes to mathematics.
    I'm not a regular listener - I happened to be driving on Thursday morning rather than being at work. However, I think I'll be subjected to next week's offering on Jane Austen at my other half's insistence.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904
    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Not hugely interesting. Just a LD collapse.
    Tory vote also dropped 7% in the same period. Minor parties UKIP and SNP did well. Labour up a bit.
  • Options
    It is a banning offence to attack those who help me run PB. I'm thoroughly sick of it and will take action to cut it out.

  • Options

    Ooh a thread on electoral reform.

    Thank you David

    You're welcome. It was going to be the morning piece until overtaken by events. A two-party system would , of course, do away with the need for AV.
    It would, it would also change the dynamics in Scotland.

    As it stands FPTP is indefensible, all those Greens, Kippers and Lib Dems with so few MPs
    AV would barely give any of those three any more

    A better solution to my mind is PR for the Lords. That gives the two Houses different mandates - one geographic, one popular vote - which should act as a check on each other. Obviously, the power of the Lords / Senate would yave to be increased a bit too.
  • Options
    A lot of sympathy from people in London for the events in Paris. We should remember that large numbers of French people live and work in London. Some 350,000. France's 6th biggest city?

    The response to these attack should be to keep up the current squeeze on ISIS in its 'Caliphate'. It has the structure of a country and when it declares war it should be attacked as a country. We can do that with air power, economic power and political will power. Cameron should not bother with parliamentary votes, we should revert to a government getting on with the extension its necessary power and lever all the wittering to numpties like David Davis and Corbyn.
    I would have thought with a proper 'mobilisation' it ought to be possible to surround the ISIS extension in places like Libya. However just like with Al Qaeda, any old terrorist (or more accurately perhaps, paramafia) group will ally itself to the flavour of the month.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    This is the thing that doesn't help. No choice given one way just imposed. A change of supplier only but it's the complete disregard for the parents views.

    Leanne Poxon, 28, a warehouse worker, from Bilborough, sends her four children to the school.
    She added: 'I think it's disgusting that my children haven't been given the option.

    'Muslim children would never be forced to eat non-Halal meat, so why are my children being forced to eat halal meat?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318511/Parents-disgust-children-s-primary-school-started-feeding-youngsters-halal-meat.html#ixzz3rVbLLBwc
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited November 2015
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Mind you several members of the Tory Cabinet used to be members of the SDP, including Greg Clarke, Chris Grayling and Anna Soubry
    Plus Liz Truss who used to be a Lib Dem and, indeed, proposed a motion at an annual conference in the mid-90s calling for the monarchy to be abolished. She's got even more "form" on this than Mr. Corbyn.
    Indeed, David Mundell too. In 2009 there were as many ex SDP members of the Tory Shadow Cabinet as the LD Shadow Cabinet http://www.libdemvoice.org/are-there-more-exsdp-members-on-the-tory-frontbench-than-the-lib-dem-frontbench-10833.html.

    Did not know Truss was a Republican, but there have always been a few in the Tories, normally ardent free marketeers and libertarians
    There was also, of course, Andrew Cooper who for a time was Cameron's strategy director at Number 10.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited November 2015
    "His plan had been to detonate it on the terraces, triggering a stampede of fans – straight into the path of another bomber outside."

    The security guard at the stadium (who it doesn't seem to be reported anywhere if he is still alive or not) has saved potentially 100's or even 1000's of lives.
  • Options

    It is a banning offence to attack those who help me run PB. I'm thoroughly sick of it and will take action to cut it out.

    So iSam has been permanently banned or been given a time-out?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,884
    Double Smiting night by the looks of it.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    Tell your friend (if he exists, which I doubt; I think you are just trolling) that weapons systems exist for different purposes. France also has an air force and a navy as well as a largeish army equipped with tanks and artillery none of which are of much use in deterring an act by a bunch of criminals with guns. However that doesn't mean that France should scrap its armed forces.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,126

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    One of the most startling statistics from the general election is that the combined Lab/LD vote was just 39%. In 1983 it was 53%.

    Mind you several members of the Tory Cabinet used to be members of the SDP, including Greg Clarke, Chris Grayling and Anna Soubry
    Plus Liz Truss who used to be a Lib Dem and, indeed, proposed a motion at an annual conference in the mid-90s calling for the monarchy to be abolished. She's got even more "form" on this than Mr. Corbyn.
    Indeed, David Mundell too. In 2009 there were as many ex SDP members of the Tory Shadow Cabinet as the LD Shadow Cabinet http://www.libdemvoice.org/are-there-more-exsdp-members-on-the-tory-frontbench-than-the-lib-dem-frontbench-10833.html.

    Did not know Truss was a Republican, but there have always been a few in the Tories, normally ardent free marketeers and libertarians
    There was also, of course, Andrew Cooper who for a time was Cameron's strategy director at Number 10.

    Yes and it all helped smooth the way to the Coalition
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,973
    A typically well presented piece. I'm not a fan of the anti-Tory majority argument, not least because although I've never voted for them, I do not share the instinctive antipathy for them some do, and that even recognising they have had a bigger brand problem than others, that is not the same as a reliable anti-Tory progressive force.
  • Options
    Seems to be getting a bit testy on here this evening.
  • Options

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    Tell your friend (if he exists, which I doubt; I think you are just trolling) that weapons systems exist for different purposes. France also has an air force and a navy as well as a largeish army equipped with tanks and artillery none of which are of much use in deterring an act by a bunch of criminals with guns. However that doesn't mean that France should scrap its armed forces.
    I'm not trolling, he's annoying me no end and I want to rebut his argument and wanted to use the collective wisdom of PB in that endeavour.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,557
    Moses_ said:

    This is the thing that doesn't help. No choice given one way just imposed. A change of supplier only but it's the complete disregard for the parents views.

    Leanne Poxon, 28, a warehouse worker, from Bilborough, sends her four children to the school.
    She added: 'I think it's disgusting that my children haven't been given the option.

    'Muslim children would never be forced to eat non-Halal meat, so why are my children being forced to eat halal meat?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318511/Parents-disgust-children-s-primary-school-started-feeding-youngsters-halal-meat.html#ixzz3rVbLLBwc

    It might be of interest to consider that both Hindus and Sikhs can regard being made to eat halal food as imposing a religion on them.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904
    Labour and the Lib Dems both need to remember big votes are there without pacts.

    They just need to get their head out of this own backsides and start thinking about the electorate.
  • Options

    I need some advice.

    I have a very lefty friend, who is pointing out that France has a nuclear deterrent but that hasn't stopped them been attacked twice this year.

    How do I rebut his argument? (Is there a rebuttal?)

    It deters states, not private armies or malcontents.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm not trolling, he's annoying me no end and I want to rebut his argument and wanted to use the collective wisdom of PB in that endeavour.

    If he really thinks nuclear weapons should deter lunatics with Kalashnikovs, ask him why mousetraps don't deter moths
This discussion has been closed.