politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Labour man in a Labour job. What’s not to like about Andr

Richard_Tyndall said:

Philip_Thompson said:

blackburn63 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Dispensations doesn't help those who want to keep the option open in the future. I may want to move to France or other nations in the future, I don't now but I can't rule it out. You can argue all you want that what you see is a flaw is one, but others see it as a benefit. That is why we created the freedom to move and some of us still value it. As did my classmates.

This wall that's being built around our coast - when does work commence?

If you have the skill set required by France, or any other nation, I'm sure they'd be happy to take you if a vacancy arises.

It takes potentially years for the bureaucrats to process the paperwork to issue a visa, while retirement is harder still.

Between my wife and I we have relatives in France, Spain, South Africa, Canada and Australia. If we wanted to we could turn up at Manchester Airport tomorrow and no questions asked board a plane to France and Spain, stay with our relatives, find a new job and start life over there.

We could apply for a visa to South Africa, Canada and Australia and potentially a couple of years later we could get a visa.

I would rather get a new reciprocal movement agreement with other nations similar to ours like Canada, Australia, NZ and USA rather than abolish it with Europe.

Unfortunately it was joining the EEC which helped bring an end to the sorts of agreements you are talking about with Non-EU countries.

I know. That's a good argument tragically rarely made for leave.

This is why arguments matter. Leave the EU to be open to the wider world - positive. Leave the EU to shut out the world - negative. To me, your mileage may vary.

NEW FRED

Casino_Royale said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

The Vote Leave website is very interesting. As one would expect from the people behind it, it's well done and the argument well-presented, although perhaps rather over-abstract?

Most interesting of all is that as far as I can see it makes no mention of immigration or freedom of movement. If there is any mention it's certainly not prominent. That's presumably because they are smart enough to realise that leaving the EU is very unlikely to change anything on that front.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/issues

I think it's because they want to strike a different tone from Farage - I think they are correct to do so.

I don't believe for a second that immigration would be unlikely to change if we left the EU - the exit negotiations for future arrangements would ensure that it did.

It's almost like there are some people that want to leave for one set of reasons and others that want to leave for another and there are different groups reaching out to those different groups of people

The other slightly odd thing about the Vote Leave description of the issues is that they choose to highlight this as one of their main points:

What institutions does Europe need?

We need a new European institutional architecture.

First, non-Eurozone countries should stop blocking the Eurozone from doing what they want to save the euro.
...

Well, if you're leaving the EU, then presumably you've just opted out of any say in any new European institutional architecture. They seem to be arguing for the kind of change within the EU which Cameron has been advocating.

That impression is reinforced by the sidebar:

The Eurozone has a permanent majority under Qualified Majority Voting (QMV)

That's an odd thing to highlight since it's very likely to be one of the points where Cameron will get a substantive gain in the negotiations.

Overall, this looks very much like the Douglas Carswell view of the issues. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's not a populist view. Too abstract.

Philip_Thompson said:

blackburn63 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If you move from Edinburgh to London you don't need a visa and that's a good thing. I don't see what changes because it is Paris instead.

I really can't believe you said that. Welcome to Philip's world of no borders.

No borders between certain nations yes. And its not a new world it is what we have built already.

EDIT: Though we still have border control through Schengen which makes sense as the right extends to French people in a reciprocal manner not anyone who has found their way into France.

Errr, you do know that the UK is not party to the Schengen agreement, don't you?

You also know that under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty the future relationship between the UK and the EU in the event of an out vote will solely be governed by the negotiations between HMG and the EU states, don't you? It matters not a jot what anyone says about EEA/EFTA or any other damn thing during the referendum campaign. The relationship will be decided after the vote.

I am sure you are aware of both those points but I just wanted to check as a couple of your posts have left me wondering.

HurstLlama said:

Philip_Thompson said:

blackburn63 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If you move from Edinburgh to London you don't need a visa and that's a good thing. I don't see what changes because it is Paris instead.

I really can't believe you said that. Welcome to Philip's world of no borders.

No borders between certain nations yes. And its not a new world it is what we have built already.

EDIT: Though we still have border control through Schengen which makes sense as the right extends to French people in a reciprocal manner not anyone who has found their way into France.

Errr, you do know that the UK is not party to the Schengen agreement, don't you?

You also know that under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty the future relationship between the UK and the EU in the event of an out vote will solely be governed by the negotiations between HMG and the EU states, don't you? It matters not a jot what anyone says about EEA/EFTA or any other damn thing during the referendum campaign. The relationship will be decided after the vote.

I am sure you are aware of both those points but I just wanted to check as a couple of your posts have left me wondering.

Yes it was a typo, I was trying to say we still have border control through not being in Schengen.

As for the negotiations that is why it matters what argument Leave makes. If the argument Leave makes which wins the day is leave to secure our border then the government would need to follow through on that (ruling out EEA). If the argument Leave makes is more nuanced then that means keeping movement (and thus the EEA) is still an option.

Philip_Thompson said:

isam said:

david_herdson said:

isam said:

C

Philip_Thompson said:

isam said:

Amazing how many people on here can't make their own minds up and have to rely on who fronts what campaign

It's not who fronts the campaig

To those who are sceptical ao we get from this and could we get a better deal" basis (like me) we could go for either leave or stay depending upon which is the better deal.

If a Farage-fronted leave wins we'll be a lesser and more xenophobic nation with the EEA ruled out as a middle ground. If a cross-party leave wins which keeps the EEA as an option (which means keeping free movement) then it can attract a different scale of voters.

It becoming hard to keep patience with you but I will try.

Farage is not fronting any leave campaign, I don't know why you keep pretending he is

UKIP is itself a Leave campaign, and Farage fronts it. Whatever arrangements are made for the two broad campaigns, Farage will be a very prominent voice in the debate and may well end up effectively fronting it depending on how loud he ends up being and how well the nominal Out leaders are doing.

Well in that case people like Phillip Thompson won't be able to vote to leave while Farage is UKIP leader... so be it.

I find it amazing that grown up people are honestly saying they want to vote leave for xyz reasons, but won't because the leader of the smallest party in the House of Commons wants to leave for different reasons

I don't like racism or the BNP, but after studying politics at uni I came to the conclusion that mass immigration is the major cause of our problems... I am confident enough in my own belief not to worry about them. I'm not going to stop supporting arsenal because if Piers Morgan either

I am sick of repeating myself and banging my head against a brick wall so lets try one last time using some logic and see if you comprehend.

IF the dominant argument to leave the EU is to end freedom of movement AND that argument wins the day THEN that logically entails the UK choosing to end freedom of movement and thus rules out the EEA.

IF the argument is broad-based with a variety of future options THEN we can determine our future with nothing ruled out.

The two scenarios are different.

Dear God it's not difficult to see why people are worried about people not being able to understand what the **** is going on.

They are going to have to slim down and simplify whatever message or results are achieved pretty dramatically for them to fit on the front page of The Sun (or The Guardian, for that matter).