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I've changed my mind on him.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
There was a time when he was being smeared as BNP-lite simply for reasonably advocating EU withdrawal, and I had sympathy with him. But he progressively became less and less careful with what he said, and how he said it. For reference, the Nigel I liked was the one in the C4 documentary where he took a journalist around the EU parliament and calmly exposed the lunacy of it.
I was uncomfortable with his 'shock and awful' performance in the leader debates, and he became increasingly sensitive and brittle to criticism - using anger rather than humour, and taking thinly veiled revenge on internal critics.
He finally lost my respect with his ludicrous resign/unresign behaviour after the election, combined with a witchhunt. His ego has taken over. He is now damaging the UKIP cause - no leader should ever think they are bigger than their cause.
Sadly, I can't vote for that.0 -
Mr. Isam, but sceptics don't need persuading to vote Out. It's like Corbyn being popular with socialists.0
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Trump is in it for the publicity. I have read he has copyrighted his name and sells it to organisations to use.
According to the Washington Post he is 'increasingly reliant' on selling his name.0 -
Sorry Sam but I am really not sure you are aware of what Eurosceptics in the 'real world' think of Farage. There are many very influential Eurosceptics who consider him an absolute liability. I do not know of a single other mainstream Eurosceptic organisation that is happy with having Farage leading the campaign. Certainly the Bruges Group are not. Nor the Better Off Out Campaign. Dr Richard North is probably one of the most informed and influential Eurosceptics out there and he would not be seen dead sharing a platform with Farage. I have helped run anti-EU campaigns for more than two decades and I can tell you that in the movement as a whole Farage is not seen as an asset except under very limited situations (such as berating EU leaders in the European Parliament). Generally he is considered to be a liability.isam said:
If you listen to the 24 hour partisan people on here, yes that sounds plausible. In the real world farage is quite popular, especially with eurosceptics... And many people that would not have cared about the EU were it not for him will vote to leave because of his work in the last decade.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Farage pisses some people off so much that doing what annoys him more may swing their vote in the referendum. Most of those will be for In anyway, but some won't, and if the vote's tight Farage could be a factor that helps lose it for Out.
But look, a simple statement that UKIP got one vote for every three Tory votes at the GE is argued over in here by anti Kippers, even though it is a fact. You have to bear things like that in mind when reading their posts0 -
Of course they are but it just means that people would desert said church in droves. If that were to happen in my C of E Church, there would be moves to undseat said bishop...Philip_Thompson said:
WTF? A bishop isn't allowed to make proposals about what she wants to do with her church? How is that horrifying?MikeK said:Horrifying to see Sweden destroy itself in the name of diversity:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/05/worlds-first-lesbian-bishop-calls-church-remove-crosses-install-muslim-prayer-space/
If a government bod was saying that the church must do this then that would be one thing, but churches are free to evolve and appeal as they please.0 -
The best recent example of democracy in action in a Western liberal democracy was the Scottish referendum.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.Mortimer said:
Yet it remains the prevailing and supported electoral model in one of the bastions of Western liberal democracy.surbiton said:
UKIP got 13% of the votes and won 1 seat. SNP won 5% of the votes and 56 MPs. LDs got 8% and 8 MPs.
FPTP is neither representative nor democratic !
Doesn't suit everybody, but it suits Britain just fine. And it offers:
- stability of government and constitution
- direct constituency link between individual and the legislature
- accountability (government and representatives)
All of which are most definitely something, and cherished by the majority of the people.
You are fooling only yourself by claiming anyone would look at the UK and think "hey, great example of democracy". It is almost certainly the worst example in all Western liberal democracies - so bad that it probably shouldn't be included in such a grouping.0 -
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
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Nice try at a v clever sign off but it doesn't really work... I didn't say I was unconcerned about Nigel Farage... The truth is that he would no longer be an MEP, still not be an MP, and may not even be leader of the smallest party in the house of Commins post Brexit. Given his obvious health problems I reckon he'd probably Jack it in.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
From everything you have ever said in here I don't see why you would vote to leave anyway... Surely the status quo suits?0 -
Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.0
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Would be nice if the SNP respected the outcome...MarqueeMark said:The best recent example of democracy in action in a Western liberal democracy was the Scottish referendum.
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I agree with that. The first time Farage quit, the party went backwards but now there are some credible candidates who could take it forward again e.g. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans or Steven Woolfe.If he had quit as promised after the elction he would have gone out on a high and left a strong legacy. The risk is the party now stagnates or goes backward.Casino_Royale said:
I've changed my mind on him.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
There was a time when he was being smeared as BNP-lite simply for reasonably advocating EU withdrawal, and I had sympathy with him. But he progressively became less and less careful with what he said, and how he said it. For reference, the Nigel I liked was the one in the C4 documentary where he took a journalist around the EU parliament and calmly exposed the lunacy of it.
I was uncomfortable with his 'shock and awful' performance in the leader debates, and he became increasingly sensitive and brittle to criticism - using anger rather than humour, and taking thinly veiled revenge on internal critics.
He finally lost my respect with his ludicrous resign/unresign behaviour after the election, combined with a witchhunt. His ego has taken over. He is now damaging the UKIP cause - no leader should ever think they are bigger than their cause.
Sadly, I can't vote for that.0 -
But as with the '4 million people voted UKIP' argument. If those numbers were repeated at the referendum then Leave would lose handsomely.Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
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Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible0 -
The PAC advert for Joe Biden is pretty damn good I have to say !0
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Mr. JEO, quite. If Gove led the Out campaign for the Conservatives, it'd harm that campaign for similar reasons.0
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He increasingly reminds me of Gordon Brown.Slackbladder said:
Farage has made the error of just going on too long. He should have stuck by his guns and resigned (and remained resigned) after May.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
UKIP is looking like a one man power-trip, and Farage unable to let go, or allow anyone else in.0 -
Your point is a good one. The problem with the referendum is that if we vote for Out then we are going to be involved in all manner of other disputes about where we go afterwards. We will have anti EEA and pro EEA and what we do and accept anyway on everything all the time. Disputes will not end. The EU and Eurozone is going to come closer and this massive block will exert an influence whether we like it or not. Simply being in the EEA may be best, it may be better to be out of the political side of it. But the EU will still be there and unless we can be sure that our exit could be controlled then subsequently negotiating a new deal from outside may not be easy as some people think.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.0 -
I won't be basing my vote on my like or dislike of Farage/Junker.
But others might.0 -
I never said he should be leading the campaign... I don't think he should ior willRichard_Tyndall said:
Sorry Sam but I am really not sure you are aware of what Eurosceptics in the 'real world' think of Farage. There are many very influential Eurosceptics who consider him an absolute liability. I do not know of a single other mainstream Eurosceptic organisation that is happy with having Farage leading the campaign. Certainly the Bruges Group are not. Nor the Better Off Out Campaign. Dr Richard North is probably one of the most informed and influential Eurosceptics out there and he would not be seen dead sharing a platform with Farage. I have helped run anti-EU campaigns for more than two decades and I can tell you that in the movement as a whole Farage is not seen as an asset except under very limited situations (such as berating EU leaders in the European Parliament). Generally he is considered to be a liability.isam said:
If you listen to the 24 hour partisan people on here, yes that sounds plausible. In the real world farage is quite popular, especially with eurosceptics... And many people that would not have cared about the EU were it not for him will vote to leave because of his work in the last decade.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Farage pisses some people off so much that doing what annoys him more may swing their vote in the referendum. Most of those will be for In anyway, but some won't, and if the vote's tight Farage could be a factor that helps lose it for Out.
But look, a simple statement that UKIP got one vote for every three Tory votes at the GE is argued over in here by anti Kippers, even though it is a fact. You have to bear things like that in mind when reading their posts
I just dispute that the public find him as repellent as the heavily politically motivated people on here who claim the public think like them and have shifted their opinion post GE which isn't backed up by anything0 -
Where I am coming from in some ways. Probably most succinctly summed up as "If we leave, we can be Iceland"Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
(I appreciate that it's not as simple or reductionist as that, but in essence - being modern, forward-looking, in EEA and EFTA to the degree that is most helpful for trade but being independent from the bureaucratic excesses of the 'European Project')0 -
To be fair, I don't think Farage really believes that.Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
The direction of travel of the public is becoming ever firmer on tightening up immigration control. However, they want someone to put the case reasonably and do it reasonably.
The risk for the Conservatives is that they liberalise massively on immigration (huge strategic mistake) - and the risk for UKIP is they make themselves too toxic to attract those same votes.0 -
I'm not sure the management of either the sovereign debt crisis or the migrant crisis can be described as even "moderately competent". In fact, it has been nothing short of disastrous.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I actually think UKIP would have less influence after an Out vote. The following election would probably lead to a fall in their vote share and a larger Conservative majority. If In wins, however, it could well lead to the Tory party splitting, as the eurosceptics get angry about it and desert the leadership. The situation that UKIP would be most marginalised would be if David Cameron recommends Leave.0 -
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%0 -
With the usual caveats about subsamples, the Ipsos Mori poll shows English voters evenly divided about him at 43: 43.JEO said:
The problem he has is that the people that dislike him, really dislike him. And that includes a lot of persuadable Out voters.Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
49% of Conservatives and 30% of Labour supporters approve of Farage's performance as UKIP leader. That's actually quite a high rating for a British political leader.0 -
Treason to my party, maybe, but strategically I want a strong credible UKIP to continue to threaten the Conservatives right flank.GarethoftheVale2 said:
I agree with that. The first time Farage quit, the party went backwards but now there are some credible candidates who could take it forward again e.g. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans or Steven Woolfe.If he had quit as promised after the elction he would have gone out on a high and left a strong legacy. The risk is the party now stagnates or goes backward.Casino_Royale said:
I've changed my mind on him.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
There was a time when he was being smeared as BNP-lite simply for reasonably advocating EU withdrawal, and I had sympathy with him. But he progressively became less and less careful with what he said, and how he said it. For reference, the Nigel I liked was the one in the C4 documentary where he took a journalist around the EU parliament and calmly exposed the lunacy of it.
I was uncomfortable with his 'shock and awful' performance in the leader debates, and he became increasingly sensitive and brittle to criticism - using anger rather than humour, and taking thinly veiled revenge on internal critics.
He finally lost my respect with his ludicrous resign/unresign behaviour after the election, combined with a witchhunt. His ego has taken over. He is now damaging the UKIP cause - no leader should ever think they are bigger than their cause.
Sadly, I can't vote for that.
Otherwise I think the Tories may increasingly tack in a metropolitan direction. And I don't know where that would leave me - probably nowhere and exasperated.0 -
He is weighed down by the size of the chip on his shoulder.Cyclefree said:
Top trolling. Congratulations.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.Mortimer said:
Yet it remains the prevailing and supported electoral model in one of the bastions of Western liberal democracy.surbiton said:
UKIP got 13% of the votes and won 1 seat. SNP won 5% of the votes and 56 MPs. LDs got 8% and 8 MPs.
FPTP is neither representative nor democratic !
Doesn't suit everybody, but it suits Britain just fine. And it offers:
- stability of government and constitution
- direct constituency link between individual and the legislature
- accountability (government and representatives)
All of which are most definitely something, and cherished by the majority of the people.
You are fooling only yourself by claiming anyone would look at the UK and think "hey, great example of democracy". It is almost certainly the worst example in all Western liberal democracies - so bad that it probably shouldn't be included in such a grouping.0 -
Where would he go?Morris_Dancer said:F1: for what it's worth, Alonso says he'll see out his McLaren contract:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/344757680 -
c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him0 -
Mr. Flightpath, he'd probably retire, if he left McLaren.
That was a serious possibility for both him and Button (though if Bottas had taken Raikkonen's place at Ferrari there was talk of Button going to Williams).0 -
I take the view that Matthew Elliot knows how to win national referendums and that should be the deciding factor. Unfortunately Farage is too arrogant to vest control in Matthew.antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
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I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.0 -
Cameron does a bit better.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
Look, the point is that you need 51% of people to win the referendum. It's pretty hard to win over 8% of the population that flat out dislikes you. I wouldn't recommend Corbyn or Farron leading one side in a referendum either. You need someone that is widely liked (or at least not very widely disliked) across the spectrum. Someone like Kate Hoey.0 -
Not a Hammersmith & City direction?Casino_Royale said:
Otherwise I think the Tories may increasingly tack in a Metropolitan direction..
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Only just seen this. Leave should be odds-on now!
Philip Cowley @philipjcowley 7h 7 hours ago
Congrats to @election_data, who has just been recruited by @LeaveEUOfficial.0 -
FIFA???flightpath01 said:
Where would he go?Morris_Dancer said:F1: for what it's worth, Alonso says he'll see out his McLaren contract:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/344757680 -
Lennon..I think I would prefer to be a version of Iceland than a version of Vichy France..0
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Such a shame that Farage had not simply celebrated the fact that UKIP had helped get a referendum on Europe. Tick that as job done and then do what Carswell is doing and work with the best folk at winning referendums. Aaron Banks is not that person. Another arrogant man with a few millions.Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
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He would obviously lose money if he retired but I suppose he may not need it. But frankly most people are in a position where they are making up numbers, the best thing would be if they all retired.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Flightpath, he'd probably retire, if he left McLaren.
That was a serious possibility for both him and Button (though if Bottas had taken Raikkonen's place at Ferrari there was talk of Button going to Williams).0 -
http://john-moloney.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/bbc-is-enemy.html
This also the organisation which will lead the referendum propaganda for IN.0 -
No. Because it is a circle people vote for parties they like the leaders of not just like the leader of the party they like. Many Labour folks dislike Corbyn.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
The winning side of the referendum needs to score at least approximately 25.4 million votes. But to get that many votes you need to appeal credibly to more as not everyone you appeal to will vote for you. The leave side thus needs to appeal to at least approximately 30 million voters in order to achieve 25 million.
Does Farage and his arguments appeal to at least 30 million voters. If you think yes then he can be in charge if not then you are doomed with him in charge.0 -
Iceland is actually in Schengen at the moment.Lennon said:
Where I am coming from in some ways. Probably most succinctly summed up as "If we leave, we can be Iceland"Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
(I appreciate that it's not as simple or reductionist as that, but in essence - being modern, forward-looking, in EEA and EFTA to the degree that is most helpful for trade but being independent from the bureaucratic excesses of the 'European Project')0 -
Ah, a market I suggested to shadsy in the bar in Manchester. Were William Hill listening in?!
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Interesting bet from @sharpeangle: who'll go first, Cameron or Corbyn? Corbyn the current favourite at 4/6, Cameron 11/10.0 -
Its quite a walk though.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Iceland is actually in Schengen at the moment.Lennon said:
Where I am coming from in some ways. Probably most succinctly summed up as "If we leave, we can be Iceland"Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
(I appreciate that it's not as simple or reductionist as that, but in essence - being modern, forward-looking, in EEA and EFTA to the degree that is most helpful for trade but being independent from the bureaucratic excesses of the 'European Project')0 -
I think you need to look at the mechanism of leaving. This is actually an issue for both sides.flightpath01 said:
Your point is a good one. The problem with the referendum is that if we vote for Out then we are going to be involved in all manner of other disputes about where we go afterwards. We will have anti EEA and pro EEA and what we do and accept anyway on everything all the time. Disputes will not end. The EU and Eurozone is going to come closer and this massive block will exert an influence whether we like it or not. Simply being in the EEA may be best, it may be better to be out of the political side of it. But the EU will still be there and unless we can be sure that our exit could be controlled then subsequently negotiating a new deal from outside may not be easy as some people think.
I should say that I am starting from the point that you should abide by the treaties you signed up to until you actually leave them.
In that case, a referendum result for Leave does not mean we will simply be out the next day or even the next month. In fact not even the next year.
The mechanism for leaving is governed by Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon. That allows for up to 2 years for negotiations on the post Brexit arrangements between the EU and the UK (and this can be extended with agreement of the departing state and a unanimous agreement of the other EU states).
We would actually be negotiating from inside the EU at the time as full members until such times as we leave. The negotiating position of the EU in such a situation would be decided by QMV.0 -
Sunil...not many refugee dinghy's washing up on its shoreline tho...it can be what the hell it likes0
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Mr. Flightpath, Alonso's loaded. Money isn't an issue.0
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I know. Ideally I would want to be in Schengen as well but I appreciate that mine is a minority view.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Iceland is actually in Schengen at the moment.Lennon said:
Where I am coming from in some ways. Probably most succinctly summed up as "If we leave, we can be Iceland"Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
(I appreciate that it's not as simple or reductionist as that, but in essence - being modern, forward-looking, in EEA and EFTA to the degree that is most helpful for trade but being independent from the bureaucratic excesses of the 'European Project')0 -
Was your canvassing suggesting you'd lose all those seats?isam said:
Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
It depends how big your ambitions are. 4m is very credible for a protest party. It is pathetic for a yes/no high turnout referendum. It is 30 million or bust you need to target.0 -
Switzerland is also in Schengen - I remember about a year ago, after visiting CERN on the edge of Geneva, I walked up the road to the French border, and "sneaking in" a short distance. Customs posts still in situ, but unmanned.0
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I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.0 -
As is Norway. As would Scotland if it left the UK and joined either the EEA or EU. It is a requirement for European countries who join with the EEA and EU. If we left the EU, would we be able to stay out?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Iceland is actually in Schengen at the moment.Lennon said:
Where I am coming from in some ways. Probably most succinctly summed up as "If we leave, we can be Iceland"Cyclefree said:
I agree. But I think that the small-minded buffoons are not the ones who will direct the UK should it vote Out. FWIW I think Ukip and Farage are a busted flush and the apparent direction of the Tories is away from rather than to Ukip. So I am a little more hopeful than you on this score.antifrank said:
Nigel Farage will need to be dragged off the public stage with a walking stick round the neck. He's the very definition of an attention whore.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either
.....
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
As I said earlier, a vote on the EU referendum is not just about the EU, it is about the direction the country takes after the vote. If that is in the direction of small-minded buffoons, I'll probably prefer to stick with arrogant but moderately competent Eurocrats.
People who are unconcerned about Nigel Farage telling me that they are unconcerned about Nigel Farage aren't really giving me (or any of the absolute majority of the population that don't like him) any very useful information.
I do not like the EU's direction of travel and don't think it is the right one for the UK. But if Leave want to convince me they need to present an attractive, open, forward-looking view of the UK, one at ease with the modern world not one which harks back to some imagined 1950's utopia when foreigners had to queue at the Aliens desk at passport control. Farage is absolutely the wrong man to do that.
(I appreciate that it's not as simple or reductionist as that, but in essence - being modern, forward-looking, in EEA and EFTA to the degree that is most helpful for trade but being independent from the bureaucratic excesses of the 'European Project')0 -
Exactly.Philip_Thompson said:
Was your canvassing suggesting you'd lose all those seats?isam said:
Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
It depends how big your ambitions are. 4m is very credible for a protest party. It is pathetic for a yes/no high turnout referendum. It is 30 million or bust you need to target.0 -
Phillip try and brush up before you post, for both our sakes. I enjoy a debate, but having to correct you so often is time consumingPhilip_Thompson said:
Was your canvassing suggesting you'd lose all those seats?isam said:
Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
It depends how big your ambitions are. 4m is very credible for a protest party. It is pathetic for a yes/no high turnout referendum. It is 30 million or bust you need to target.
Did UKIP lose Clacton?
Were any of the others theirs to lose?
Anyway, in the context of my post, that being Farage's popularity with UKIP voters, whether they won or lost the seat is totally irrelevant.
Other than that, good post
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I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...0
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I find it incredible that you can ignore the disliked column as though it somehow doesn't count in an either/or referendum.isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
People will be voting against things at least as much as they are voting for things. If Nigel Farage is front and centre in the referendum campaign. then a substantial number of those many people who dislike him will be voting against him. There are far more of those than of those that like him.
It's not petty pointing that out (pompous I'll grant you). You can't just look at the like column for a referendum.0 -
It was a "Reckless" defection in Rochester!isam said:
Phillip try and brush up before you post, for both our sakes. I enjoy a debate, but having to correct you so often is time consumingPhilip_Thompson said:
Was your canvassing suggesting you'd lose all those seats?isam said:
Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
It depends how big your ambitions are. 4m is very credible for a protest party. It is pathetic for a yes/no high turnout referendum. It is 30 million or bust you need to target.
Did UKIP lose Clacton?
Were any of the others theirs to lose?
Anyway, in the context of my post, that being Farage's popularity with UKIP voters, whether they won or lost the seat is totally irrelevant.
Other than that, good post0 -
I used to think Leave had to provide me with details of a better alternative in order for me to consider switching sides, but not any more. Staying in seems likely to perpetuate the toxic and bitter situation we find ourselves in - better to plunge into the unknown and see what happens. If it's a mistake, well, we deal with it but at least the issue is settled. Stay in, and we'll still bitch and moan and the EU will bitch and moan back, it'll be unhappy, pulling in all sorts of directions, and unhelpful.0
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Yes that's appreciated. It's ambition. Desire to be competitive... in a competitive car with a competitive engine. They could all be that in karts. Someone should tell Bernie.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Flightpath, Alonso's loaded. Money isn't an issue.
0 -
When you're stuck for half an hour in Stansted at 11pm on a Sunday evening in the passport queue, Schengen seems very appealing indeed.richardDodd said:I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...
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UKIP should stop defending Farage, and despatch him pronto.antifrank said:
I find it incredible that you can ignore the disliked column as though it somehow doesn't count in an either/or referendum.isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
People will be voting against things at least as much as they are voting for things. If Nigel Farage is front and centre in the referendum campaign. then a substantial number of those many people who dislike him will be voting against him. There are far more of those than of those that like him.
It's not petty pointing that out (pompous I'll grant you). You can't just look at the like column for a referendum.
He is now a threat to achieving their overriding objective: Leave.0 -
I'm not sure why we should model ourselves after any European country economically. It is the East Asian tigers we should look to...0
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Well if I had ever suggested Farage should be front and centre of the LEAVE campaign you may have a point I guessantifrank said:
I find it incredible that you can ignore the disliked column as though it somehow doesn't count in an either/or referendum.isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
People will be voting against things at least as much as they are voting for things. If Nigel Farage is front and centre in the referendum campaign. then a substantial number of those many people who dislike him will be voting against him. There are far more of those than of those that like him.
It's not petty pointing that out (pompous I'll grant you). You can't just look at the like column for a referendum.0 -
And yet - our system works well. Not brilliantly and with room for improvement, but a lot better than some countries.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.
For example, Zimbabwe has an elected Head of State and elected upper and lower chambers, so presumably it is a model of democracy that we should be following?
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Factually all well and good Richard. and you may be right on every comma and full stop. But, if Britain voted to leave the EU there would be more than murderous noises against our government for extending any negotiations with Brussels, and would want to leave within weeks or 3 months at the most.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think you need to look at the mechanism of leaving. This is actually an issue for both sides.flightpath01 said:
Your point is a good one. The problem with the referendum is that if we vote for Out then we are going to be involved in all manner of other disputes about where we go afterwards. We will have anti EEA and pro EEA and what we do and accept anyway on everything all the time. Disputes will not end. The EU and Eurozone is going to come closer and this massive block will exert an influence whether we like it or not. Simply being in the EEA may be best, it may be better to be out of the political side of it. But the EU will still be there and unless we can be sure that our exit could be controlled then subsequently negotiating a new deal from outside may not be easy as some people think.
I should say that I am starting from the point that you should abide by the treaties you signed up to until you actually leave them.
In that case, a referendum result for Leave does not mean we will simply be out the next day or even the next month. In fact not even the next year.
The mechanism for leaving is governed by Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon. That allows for up to 2 years for negotiations on the post Brexit arrangements between the EU and the UK (and this can be extended with agreement of the departing state and a unanimous agreement of the other EU states).
We would actually be negotiating from inside the EU at the time as full members until such times as we leave. The negotiating position of the EU in such a situation would be decided by QMV.
Of course the usual trick from Merkel and Junker would be to ask Cameron to have another referendum when they don't like the result of the first. No doubt you would approve of that, being a person who, despite his scribblings, really doesn't want to leave the EU embrace.0 -
Is Putin aspiring to become leader of North Korea?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/europe/russia-vladimir-putin-ice-hockey-birthday/0 -
JEO said:
I'm not sure why we should model ourselves after any European country economically. It is the East Asian tigers we should look to...
With few exceptions, democracy has not brought good government to new developing countries...What Asians value may not necessarily be what Americans or Europeans value. Westerners value the freedoms and liberties of the individual. As an Asian of Chinese cultural backround, my values are for a government which is honest, effective and efficient.
- Lee Kuan Yew, 1992.0 -
Surely you're not quibbling about the difference between reality and theory are you?Beverley_C said:
And yet - our system works well. Not brilliantly and with room for improvement, but a lot better than some countries.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.
For example, Zimbabwe has an elected Head of State and elected upper and lower chambers, so presumably it is a model of democracy that we should be following?0 -
Antifrank..you being inconvenienced for a few minutes..and you probably had to wait for luggage anyway...is not a good enough reason to throw open our borders to anyone who boards a plane in Europe
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antifrank said:
When you're stuck for half an hour in Stansted at 11pm on a Sunday evening in the passport queue, Schengen seems very appealing indeed.richardDodd said:I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...
For those who travel regularly to their second homes in Europe maybe.
For everyone else, it's less of an issue.0 -
No it shows toxicity. You need to achieve 51% not 12%isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
All you have demonstrated is that
1 - Only a third like him
2 - He could only convert one third of those likes into votes.
I am puzzled that you view his failure to convert like into vote as a strength not a weakness.0 -
watford30.. I travel in and out of the UK regularly..and I consider it to be a sensible barrier...and by the time I get through then my bags are just arriving..no problems..0
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Phillip, you wont even accept that UKIP got a third of the number of votes that the Tories got at the election., its not worth trying to work with you on thisPhilip_Thompson said:
No it shows toxicity. You need to achieve 51% not 12%isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
All you have demonstrated is that
1 - Only a third like him
2 - He could only convert one third of those likes into votes.
I am puzzled that you view his failure to convert like into vote as a strength not a weakness.
Leaders of the two main parties only appeal to their core vote, people who have voted for that party for years and often because of family tradition. Farage appeals to far more voters outside of his party than them, its just a fact.
Good to see that 90% of UKIP voters were happy with him too. Backs up a lot of what I have said on here0 -
You lost the contests yes. My point and everyone else's is that Farage's popularity with the electorate is what matters not his popularity with UKIP voters. 4 million is not even one in six of the 30 million you need to appeal to in order to win the vote.isam said:
Phillip try and brush up before you post, for both our sakes. I enjoy a debate, but having to correct you so often is time consumingPhilip_Thompson said:
Was your canvassing suggesting you'd lose all those seats?isam said:
Well not really my own feelings Richard, though again nice try at clever clever put down. I base it on what i heard from people canvassing in Clacton, Dagenham, Rainham, Thurrock, Upminster... Many people voting UKIP genuinely like Farage to the point of thinking he is UKIP, and he must take enormous, virtually all, credit for getting them 4m votes and a referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
I know lots of people who voted UKIP but don't like Farage. I know a fair few people inside UKIP who don't like Farage. I know plenty of people who voted Tory but don't particualrly like Cameron. You should not be blinded by your own feelings into assuming to know what the 4m UKIP voters thought of Farage.isam said:The people who didn't like Farage before the election are the same ones who don't like him now, saying the same thing. Quelle surprise
I don't say they have to like him, but they shouldn't be blinded by their own feelings into assuming that's what the 4m UKIP voters think too
I don't say he should lead any campaign, neither should any UKIP politician. But farage doesn't say that either,
Nor would farage be any more powerful were we to leave the EU. People saying they worry about voting to leave because of that baffle me... Why would it make any difference? I'd think thst world probably be a good time for Nigel to stand down. His life's work complete
We see today the reluctance of Tories on here to even admit the election result! The partisan nature in here really is incredible
It depends how big your ambitions are. 4m is very credible for a protest party. It is pathetic for a yes/no high turnout referendum. It is 30 million or bust you need to target.
Did UKIP lose Clacton?
Were any of the others theirs to lose?
Anyway, in the context of my post, that being Farage's popularity with UKIP voters, whether they won or lost the seat is totally irrelevant.
Other than that, good post0 -
There are something like 500,000 expats living in France and Spain alone - many are very worried at the prospect of Brexit affecting their rights in the adoptive countries. This constituency will inevitably vote to remain unless their concerns are addressed. If the result is close their votes could be decisive.watford30 said:antifrank said:
When you're stuck for half an hour in Stansted at 11pm on a Sunday evening in the passport queue, Schengen seems very appealing indeed.richardDodd said:I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...
For those who travel regularly to their second homes in Europe maybe.
For everyone else, it's less of an issue.0 -
We were asked for a reason why anyone would want to be in Schengen, so I gave one. It affects anyone who flies in the EU, not just those with second homes in the EU.watford30 said:antifrank said:
When you're stuck for half an hour in Stansted at 11pm on a Sunday evening in the passport queue, Schengen seems very appealing indeed.richardDodd said:I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...
For those who travel regularly to their second homes in Europe maybe.
For everyone else, it's less of an issue.
It's one of the very most popular EU policies on continental Europe.0 -
I did accept it. I said it was irrelevant if you reread what I wrote.isam said:
Phillip, you wont even accept that UKIP got a third of the number of votes that the Tories got at the election., its not worth trying to work with you on thisPhilip_Thompson said:
No it shows toxicity. You need to achieve 51% not 12%isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
All you have demonstrated is that
1 - Only a third like him
2 - He could only convert one third of those likes into votes.
I am puzzled that you view his failure to convert like into vote as a strength not a weakness.
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Leave off! Once is more than enoughPhilip_Thompson said:
I did accept it. I said it was irrelevant if you reread what I wrote.isam said:
Phillip, you wont even accept that UKIP got a third of the number of votes that the Tories got at the election., its not worth trying to work with you on thisPhilip_Thompson said:
No it shows toxicity. You need to achieve 51% not 12%isam said:
I don't want to get involved in catty put downs, I am interested in the numbers here. I quite like you its a shame when you get all pompous and pettyantifrank said:
I see you come straight from the SNP school of mathematics.isam said:c
Comparing with the other three leaders surely those are good figures?antifrank said:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3627/Nigel-Farage-improves-personal-ratings-but-UKIPs-image-remains-divisive.aspx#Sean_F said:Farage's approval ratings are actually not at all bad. 40/45 with Ipsos Mori, 36/39 with Yougov.
Like: 36%
Dislike: 58%
Basically you could safely assume that the people that vote for the parties LIKE the leaders, therefore Farage is by far the best liked by people that dont vote for him
58 is a much bigger number than 36. And this is in a relatively good month for Nigel Farage.
Just as important is the number of don't knows: 6%. The public have made up their mind about Nigel Farage and they mostly don't like him. In an either/or choice, he's going to drive more people away from his camp than to it.
Tory GE Vote 37
Cameron Liked 44 (factor of 1.19)
Labour GE Vote 31
Corbyn Liked 37 (1.19)
Lib Dem GE Vote 8
Farron Liked 24 (3.00)
UKIP GE Vote 12
Farage Liked 36 (3.00)
Seeing as Farron replaced a very unpopular leader after the GE I think he is entitled to a honeymoon. As for Farage, I find it incredible that people can cite these numbers, showing three times as many people like him as voted for his party, as proof of unpopularity, toxicity or lack of appeal outside his party. It actually shows the opposite.
All you have demonstrated is that
1 - Only a third like him
2 - He could only convert one third of those likes into votes.
I am puzzled that you view his failure to convert like into vote as a strength not a weakness.
In any case, at the risk of repeating myself, I do not think that Farage should lead any campaign. I reckon Michael Portillo is the best person to do so, and would love him to get involved.
Farage would be well employed campaigning in UKIP friendly seats to fire up the troops.. as I say, and as the poll @Antifrank referenced shows, he is very popular with them0 -
I would agree with that. We are not the USA we are a collection of disparate countries. It's a legitimate argument to say we should be like or more like the USA, and alternatively to argue the opposite. But we are countries we do elect governments and we hold those governments responsible. It is one thing to think it might be a good idea for EU citizens to be allowed to move, but it is a big step to allow non EU passengers free passage.richardDodd said:Antifrank..you being inconvenienced for a few minutes..and you probably had to wait for luggage anyway...is not a good enough reason to throw open our borders to anyone who boards a plane in Europe
I do not think we should be in Schengen certainly as it is at the moment. In 100 years, who knows.0 -
Mr. Antifrank, the migrants certainly like it.0
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Revisions to UK GDP put the UK ahead of Germany as best performing major EU economy for growth since 2007 http://t.co/Q9FMxrSerW0
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=FELIX..We have discussed this before..Brits living abroad will not be affected... they just have to register with he local authorities..and if there was some sort of hiccup in that matter then all the French and Spanish living in the UK would have to leave...not gonna happen..0
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Has this story caused any worries in the public or is it under the radar for most?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34472739
It seems things to me that this is potentially the single most dangerous flash point in the world, where a mistake could rapidly escalate into a disaster.0 -
Mr. Dodd, the fear in that area will be ramped up massively by the In side, one would expect, and will sway the vast majority of expatriates.0
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Only just seen this - squares with his speech yesterday. It looks like Cameron is getting ready to sell us out to the EU:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/04/david-cameron-no-doubt-that-britain-gains-from-being-in-eu
I'd like to say I'm surprised, but i'm not. I am very disappointed.0 -
Golly - there are worse ones?? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11919214/Police-officers-called-black-people-monkeys-and-spades.html
Cooper, 41, wrote a message to another constable in November 2011 which read: “These little black c**** are really f****** me off, if they want to act like monkeys why don’t they f*** off to the jungle?”
Other messages exchanged with a third officer featured racist language including “spades”, according to the disciplinary evidence.
However, Maxine de Brunner, a Scotland Yard deputy assistant commissioner who chaired the disciplinary hearing, ruled the content of many of the messages should remain secret to protect officers’ safety.0 -
Antifrank... It may have escaped your notice but the UK is not part of Continental Europe...it is a few Islands in the North Sea..0
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Mr. Royale, indeed. But then, I was always of the view it would be astonishing if Cameron went for Out.0
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MikeK said:
Factually all well and good Richard. and you may be right on every comma and full stop. But, if Britain voted to leave the EU there would be more than murderous noises against our government for extending any negotiations with Brussels, and would want to leave within weeks or 3 months at the most.
Of course the usual trick from Merkel and Junker would be to ask Cameron to have another referendum when they don't like the result of the first. No doubt you would approve of that, being a person who, despite his scribblings, really doesn't want to leave the EU embrace.
What a load of rubbish. I have spent the best part of my whole adult life fighting to leave the EU. I just think that if you are going to do so it needs to be done legally and properly to ensure we get the best possible deal afterwards. It is also the only way to ensure that we do win a referendum since any doubts about how we would deal with the EU post Brexit play into the hands of the Europhiles.
And no, I do not want a second referendum to validate the first. If we vote to leave then that is that. It would make me immensely happy as I could dump the 20 years or more worth of research and data I have collected in support of leaving. If I never had to look at another treaty article again I would be a very happy man.0 -
"We need a say over the rules. That is what we get sitting round that table.”Casino_Royale said:Only just seen this - squares with his speech yesterday. It looks like Cameron is getting ready to sell us out to the EU:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/04/david-cameron-no-doubt-that-britain-gains-from-being-in-eu
I'd like to say I'm surprised, but i'm not. I am very disappointed.
The problem is right now we don't really get a say. France and Germany agree, and push through a bloc vote. Hopefully Cameron is saying this because he is negotiating a double QMV or red card system or something similar.0 -
Sarkozy threatened to leave a few years ago. All sorts of isues like smuggling and none common implementation of regulations. Different standards of border guards etc. It was a quid pro pro for Germany giving up the deuchmark.antifrank said:
We were asked for a reason why anyone would want to be in Schengen, so I gave one. It affects anyone who flies in the EU, not just those with second homes in the EU.watford30 said:antifrank said:
When you're stuck for half an hour in Stansted at 11pm on a Sunday evening in the passport queue, Schengen seems very appealing indeed.richardDodd said:I cannot understand why anyone who lives in the UK would want to be in Schengen.. why...
For those who travel regularly to their second homes in Europe maybe.
For everyone else, it's less of an issue.
It's one of the very most popular EU policies on continental Europe.
The rules look like being rewritten, the current migrant crisis is a factor.
My opinion is its quite wrong to say everyone is happy with it.0 -
And as I said before - people simply do not believe this and fear they might suffer all sorts of discrimination - this is especially the case with pensioners who, as we all know, vote!richardDodd said:=FELIX..We have discussed this before..Brits living abroad will not be affected... they just have to register with he local authorities..and if there was some sort of hiccup in that matter then all the French and Spanish living in the UK would have to leave...not gonna happen..
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So I guess no-one would be traversing continents in an effort to reach our bastion of Western liberal freedom, then.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.Mortimer said:
Yet it remains the prevailing and supported electoral model in one of the bastions of Western liberal democracy.surbiton said:
UKIP got 13% of the votes and won 1 seat. SNP won 5% of the votes and 56 MPs. LDs got 8% and 8 MPs.
FPTP is neither representative nor democratic !
Doesn't suit everybody, but it suits Britain just fine. And it offers:
- stability of government and constitution
- direct constituency link between individual and the legislature
- accountability (government and representatives)
All of which are most definitely something, and cherished by the majority of the people.
You are fooling only yourself by claiming anyone would look at the UK and think "hey, great example of democracy". It is almost certainly the worst example in all Western liberal democracies - so bad that it probably shouldn't be included in such a grouping.
Oh, wait....
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Mr. JEO, quite.
A veto or suchlike would be a step in the right direction, but insufficient to sway me. The EU is heading inexorably towards more integration (before it collapses, with civil strife and potential war). The sooner we leave, the better for both us and the other nations involved.0 -
I would have thought Russians or NATO "accidentally, brutally" shooting down each other's planes over Syria would be more serious?MTimT said:Has this story caused any worries in the public or is it under the radar for most?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34472739
It seems things to me that this is potentially the single most dangerous flash point in the world, where a mistake could rapidly escalate into a disaster.0 -
I voted UKIP at the Euro Election last year.
Just sayin'... 0 -
There is a mass exodus of Syrian property developers to Scotland.Mortimer said:
So I guess no-one would be traversing continents in an effort to reach our bastion of Western liberal freedom, then.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.Mortimer said:
Yet it remains the prevailing and supported electoral model in one of the bastions of Western liberal democracy.surbiton said:
UKIP got 13% of the votes and won 1 seat. SNP won 5% of the votes and 56 MPs. LDs got 8% and 8 MPs.
FPTP is neither representative nor democratic !
Doesn't suit everybody, but it suits Britain just fine. And it offers:
- stability of government and constitution
- direct constituency link between individual and the legislature
- accountability (government and representatives)
All of which are most definitely something, and cherished by the majority of the people.
You are fooling only yourself by claiming anyone would look at the UK and think "hey, great example of democracy". It is almost certainly the worst example in all Western liberal democracies - so bad that it probably shouldn't be included in such a grouping.
Oh, wait....0 -
Me? Never!MTimT said:
Surely you're not quibbling about the difference between reality and theory are you?Beverley_C said:
And yet - our system works well. Not brilliantly and with room for improvement, but a lot better than some countries.Dair said:
The UK is neither a bastion nor a good example of a democracy. It has only one of its two chambers subject to the popular vote and the head of state is unelected and appointed on a hereditary basis.
For example, Zimbabwe has an elected Head of State and elected upper and lower chambers, so presumably it is a model of democracy that we should be following?0 -
That depends on whether the Russians play silly beggars and ignore sovereign borders.MTimT said:Has this story caused any worries in the public or is it under the radar for most?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34472739
It seems things to me that this is potentially the single most dangerous flash point in the world, where a mistake could rapidly escalate into a disaster.
What's the other option - sit idly by, and let them get on with it?
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On that we are agreed. The problem is Farage doesn't agree with that (though he used to).isam said:Leave off! Once is more than enough
In any case, at the risk of repeating myself, I do not think that Farage should lead any campaign. I reckon Michael Portillo is the best person to do so, and would love him to get involved.
Farage would be well employed campaigning in UKIP friendly seats to fire up the troops.. as I say, and as the poll @Antifrank referenced shows, he is very popular with them0
