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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big LAB leadership news is the Sun report that Corbyn described the death of Osama Bin Laden as a “tragedy”
The Sun's exclusive on Corbyn describing death of Bin Laden "a tragedy"
http://t.co/4zBzNQC9Ii pic.twitter.com/Yqht41uvPO
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1st.
Bonus hairdo video. Torybear on Stuart Maclennan being expelled for Twitter abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njCTxpfctMo#t=890 -
It's a safe bet there's lots more where this came from.0
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PS For reference, this is the vid. Out of sync sound, and comedy intro, but worth a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmAsxF-nHVI
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test0
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Presented without comment:
http://twitter.com/timfarron/status/6381173684309893120 -
FPT @ Nick Palmer re visas. Your description of visas for the US holds for Europeans - for some non-Europeans it is much more along the lines described by Moses.
Generally speaking, in my experience obtaining visas for various sets of non-EU/non-North Americans to visit other non-EU/non-North American countries, visa arrangements between countries tend to be reciprocal - with it devolving to the stricter set of rules. In this regard, I think the EU/EEA is an anomaly globally.0 -
Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.0 -
I wonder if those Burnham MP supporters who lent their votes to Corbyn are feeling a crushing responsibility for destroying their party.TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.0 -
Indeed. Speaking as someone frequently involved in the process, getting a visa for the UK for a non-EU national involves exactly the process mentioned by Moses. Even for a visitor's visa, such as when Mrs Indigo's mother came to visit us in the UK. I was required to sponsor her application and underwrite any costs that might accrue to the state, and write a formal letter of invitation offering a place to stay etc.MTimT said:FPT @ Nick Palmer re visas. Your description of visas for the US holds for Europeans - for some non-Europeans it is much more along the lines described by Moses.
Generally speaking, in my experience obtaining visas for various sets of non-EU/non-North Americans to visit other non-EU/non-North American countries, visa arrangements between countries tend to be reciprocal - with it devolving to the stricter set of rules. In this regard, I think the EU/EEA is an anomaly globally.
If you are settling its even worse, your sponsor needs to prove financial capacity to sponsor you (ie earn over 18k a year after certain expenses are removed), you need to pay in advance 200 quid for each year of your visa (so usually either 600 or 1000) up front to cover any possible use of the NHS (on top of the almost 1000 quid a settle visa costs anyway), for which you are issued a biometric id card. If you are arriving for a job you need various other proofs. You need to demonstrate you have somewhere to stay without recourse to the state, and usually a letter of invitation from either your employer or the person with whom you will be staying.
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"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?0 -
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.
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In the grand scheme of things, Bin Ladens death was entirely justified..0
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Antifrank has it right. There will be an almost inexhaustible supply of these sort of unthinking, anti-western, specifically anti-American quotes over the last 30 years. Any group that opposes Western interests is oppressed and "friends" no matter how morally disgusting they are. Because, in his eyes, we are worse. Always.0
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News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.0 -
Sir, you must know that there is no place for subtlety here. Corbyn will trip on his own petards, is wholly inappropriate to lead Labour, and will be toast.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
https://sites.middlebury.edu/individualandthesociety/files/2010/09/jackson_lottery.pdf0 -
While one can understand the “why" of the American action it did leave a nasty taste. Dropping the body into the Arabian Sea, while again understandable, smacked of medieval practices.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
Two wrongs and a right come into this somewhere.0 -
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.0 -
OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..0
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The £3ers may not have realised as all this is just a bit of a lark for them, but long-time Labour members such as Nick Palmer knew full well that when they voted for Corbyn they were voting for an anti-western, anti-capitalist, class warrior who has spent decades sharing platforms with people who advocate and celebrate the killing of British, American and other western citizens to achieve their political goals. Given that, they should not be surprised at today's Sun headline and the many, many more that will follow in the weeks and months to come.
Mike is right - Corbyn and all those who serve under him will be spending most of their time talking about why it was a tragedy Bin Laden was killed, why ISIS isn''t all bad, why it was right to invite IRA leaders to the Commons a fortnight after they attempted to assassinate the Cabinet, and so on. They can argue about context and advocate engaging with your enemies and offer all the other specious excuses made for Corbyn's activities before this June, and maybe the odd person will buy it. But what they will not be talking about are the issues that actually affect voters. The Tories will be doing that. And the LibDems. And the SNP. And UKIP. Labour, though, will have excluded itself. And all for the sake of a summer jerk off when it thought that nobody was watching.
This process represents the most spectacular abdication of political responsibility seen for many a long year in the UK. I hope Nick and his mates are proud. And if that is personal, so be it. I am personally offended and angered by their unthinking selfishness and the consequences it will have, not for them - they'll be fine, of course - but for the vulnerable, left behind, exploited people they claim to care about.0 -
While true, it will have no resonance what so ever on 90% of doorsteps, most of the public will view it as good riddance and not before time, I can't see that hand-wringing, however justified, is going to shift a single vote, where are being sympathetic to terrorist leaders is going to lose voters, especially swing voters, in droves.OldKingCole said:
While one can understand the “why" of the American action it did leave a nasty taste. Dropping the body into the Arabian Sea, while again understandable, smacked of medieval practices.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
Two wrongs and a right come into this somewhere.0 -
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.0 -
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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Maybe, in an ideal world. But Corbyn's remarks are part of a canon which basically reads "West bad, West's enemies misunderstood and not to blame for anything". That's the context. If Corbyn had speeches and articles he could call on to demonstrate that he has consistently and vociferously condemned the activities of those he has hung out with for the last 40 years then this might not be such an issue. But he doesn't, does he? It turns out he was so opposed to the activities of the IRA, ISIS, Hezbollah et al that he never quite got round to condemning them unequivocally.OldKingCole said:
While one can understand the “why" of the American action it did leave a nasty taste. Dropping the body into the Arabian Sea, while again understandable, smacked of medieval practices.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
Two wrongs and a right come into this somewhere.
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Burial at sea is a medieval practice?OldKingCole said:
While one can understand the “why" of the American action it did leave a nasty taste. Dropping the body into the Arabian Sea, while again understandable, smacked of medieval practices.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
Two wrongs and a right come into this somewhere.0 -
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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You clearly misunderstand the full nature of C*U*N*T Holidays.MarqueeMark said:
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.
The faithful on such days exchange amounts from their accounts for paper slips with sayings from the "Islington Red Book". One in a million slips will be signed by the Dear Leader and then exchanged for a Peoples Holiday in Broxtowe Public Conveniences.
Your failure to fully acquaint yourself with the true meaning has been noted in your Re-Education File.
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Not at all. I was writing on here that the Labour Party is an idea whose time has gone before he announced his candidacy.MarqueeMark said:
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.
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Good morning, everyone.
That's quite the quote.0 -
Morning!
Golly, this is all very entertaining - I'm not sure how many members the Let's Feel Sorry For Bin Laden Club has - not many amongst swing voters me thinks.
What I find most interesting is the level of whataboutery and semantics indulged in by Jezzbollah's supporters. Almost none of them are saying Urgh. Or Oh Fuck. It's all mealy-mouthed excuses and pretending its unfair/smear/evil Tories/RightWingMedia/out of context/he's just being inclusive-nice-helpful...
I know we all want to see our favourites in a positive light, but this is just getting ridiculous. Like boiling a frog - the collective comments of Comrade Corbyn don't seem to be having any effect. And then Labour will be dead.0 -
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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OGH "Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
Why do Corbyn's supporters on PB not see this? Alan Johnson has 10 days to save the Labour party. Thank goodness he will not act.0 -
OKC It would be good if you could be right in even one0
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I'm with @SouthamObserver on this, and I think, with respect, that one or two people who are questioning the premise of this thread are somewhat missing the point. It's the way Corbyn does things, as much as what he does, that's going to cause a problem, viz:
1) You can criticise the UDV/UFF and Loyalist organisations, and consider that in principle a united Ireland is the best solution for all people of that Ireland, and talk to people who agree with that aim, to try and achieve it. That's fine, even laudable. It can be done very easily without openly supporting a terrorist organisation openly responsible for the murder of numerous British subjects and trying to rationalise their crimes.
2) You can be a fierce critic of Israel's heavy-handed militarist policies, and believe that Palestinians both need and deserve a better deal than they're getting, without needing to call Hamas (a group which was for a long time bankrolled by the theocratic dictatorship of Iran) your 'friends' or openly share a platform with neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers (views which I would point out are not merely wrong and grossly offensive to Jews, but also to Austrians, Germans, Czechs, Poles and Russians).
3) You can think that America's tactics over Osama bin Laden - the illegal invasion of a theoretically allied country, destabilising it further, what appears to have been a 'shoot on sight' policy, a severe risk to non-combatants in the operation - were unedifying and even criminally irresponsible, without describing the death of one of the 21st century's worst mass murderers as 'a tragedy'.
There is a clear pattern emerging that Corbyn, a bit like Reagan, sees only good guys and bad guys. However, he has decided that the Americans and British are 'bad guys' and therefore anyone opposed to them, or their interests, must be good guys - despite the fact that even without being a starry-eyed fan of the Americans, it is easy to see why they are opposed to quite a number of homosexual-stoning, child-murdering, almost nihilist groups around the world. That leads him into doing absolutely unconscionable things like this. To put it crudely, he is now being revealed as an apologist for murderers. Even without his socio-economic agenda, which would perhaps have been cutting-edge in Khrushchev's Russia more than fifty years ago, every revelation like this will probably cost Labour one seat at the next election.
The really frightening thing is how many in the Labour party and its wider allied movement not merely cannot see this but actually think such views are both fine and praiseworthy.0 -
There's a lot of Tories would agree. The blank sheet of paper on their economic offering in the last manifesto was ample evidence of that.Innocent_Abroad said:
Not at all. I was writing on here that the Labour Party is an idea whose time has gone before he announced his candidacy.MarqueeMark said:
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.
But there are plenty of Tories who are bemused that there isn't a half-way decent alternative offered from the centre-left to keep the Government on its toes. Apart from the Bat-shit Crazy Leftist toss offered by Corbyn (how is that buyer's remorse coming along, hey guys?) none of the other three candidates has shown how they would run a country where there is no option to borrow to fund a public sector, and a very limited scope to tax without reducing existing tax revenues and ending up killing the NHS....
C'mon, centre-left - get your shit together....
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Comrade, my secret police are better than your secret police....JackW said:
You clearly misunderstand the full nature of C*U*N*T Holidays.MarqueeMark said:
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.
The faithful on such days exchange amounts from their accounts for paper slips with sayings from the "Islington Red Book". One in a million slips will be signed by the Dear Leader and then exchanged for a Peoples Holiday in Broxtowe Public Conveniences.
Your failure to fully acquaint yourself with the true meaning has been noted in your Re-Education File.0 -
ydoether.. Well said..bu I don't think Southern Ireland actually wants unification if my family over there are anything to go n[by..0
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The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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I have no secret police but the Dear Leader will be most interested to note that you do ....MarqueeMark said:
Comrade, my secret police are better than your secret police....JackW said:
You clearly misunderstand the full nature of C*U*N*T Holidays.MarqueeMark said:
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.
The faithful on such days exchange amounts from their accounts for paper slips with sayings from the "Islington Red Book". One in a million slips will be signed by the Dear Leader and then exchanged for a Peoples Holiday in Broxtowe Public Conveniences.
Your failure to fully acquaint yourself with the true meaning has been noted in your Re-Education File.
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Interesting this has yet to make the BBC website. Top political story is Brown warning that the union is in mortal danger. [Wonder why that would be...].0
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Pecunia non oletTCPoliticalBetting said:OGH "Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
Why do Corbyn's supporters on PB not see this?0 -
Bid Laden might be an extreme example but it's time the so called civilized world decided whether it is acceptable for secret services to assasinate anyone they deem to be an enemy.
Israel under the protection of the US have been doing it for years. Now the Russians have adopted the practice and no one can cry foul......
There are many things about the behaviour of the powerful that need questioning. I look forward to a politician with the courage to do it
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Yes there are and they are repelled by Corbyn. The U.S. asked Afghanistan to give up Bin Laden after 9/11. They didn't. Nor did Pakistan. Hence the action they took. Second, the U.S. has put others involved with 9/11 on trial.dugarbandier said:"A Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
So, it's controversial to be against extra-judicial execution. Are there any liberals left?
And finally it is possible to say that one would prefer people to be put on trial rather than executed without describing the death as a "tragedy".
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Mr. Roger, you think Litvinenko and Bin Laden are directly comparable?0
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My secret police will be most interested to note that you have no secret police to prevent your incarceration in the Far East (the Gulag of Lowestoft...)JackW said:
I have no secret police but the Dear Leader will be most interested to note that you do ....MarqueeMark said:
Comrade, my secret police are better than your secret police....JackW said:
You clearly misunderstand the full nature of C*U*N*T Holidays.MarqueeMark said:
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.
The faithful on such days exchange amounts from their accounts for paper slips with sayings from the "Islington Red Book". One in a million slips will be signed by the Dear Leader and then exchanged for a Peoples Holiday in Broxtowe Public Conveniences.
Your failure to fully acquaint yourself with the true meaning has been noted in your Re-Education File.0 -
Well, you can hardly blame them! Northern Ireland is, and has been ever since the plantation period, the problem in finding an answer to the 'Irish Question'. But I don't think Corbyn would care about that. After all, he's proposed shared sovereignty for the Falklands despite the fact that clearly nobody wants that either.richardDodd said:ydoether.. Well said..bu I don't think Southern Ireland actually wants unification if my family over there are anything to go n[by..
I get the feeling that when he considers himself to be right, public opinion, or political practicalities, or even things like 'the facts' and 'common sense', are not to be allowed to stand in his way. Which would be fine for a priest - but not for a politician, and particularly not for one of cabinet rank or higher.0 -
So why don't they?MarqueeMark said:
There's a lot of Tories would agree. The blank sheet of paper on their economic offering in the last manifesto was ample evidence of that.Innocent_Abroad said:
Not at all. I was writing on here that the Labour Party is an idea whose time has gone before he announced his candidacy.MarqueeMark said:
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.
But there are plenty of Tories who are bemused that there isn't a half-way decent alternative offered from the centre-left to keep the Government on its toes. Apart from the Bat-shit Crazy Leftist toss offered by Corbyn (how is that buyer's remorse coming along, hey guys?) none of the other three candidates has shown how they would run a country where there is no option to borrow to fund a public sector, and a very limited scope to tax without reducing existing tax revenues and ending up killing the NHS....
C'mon, centre-left - get your shit together....
Several reasons. First, the collapse of solidarity, whether in terms of mass Trade Unionism or "owes more to Methodism than to Marxism" - an individualistic society such as we now live in simply doesn't need "centre left" politics in the way the 20th century did.
Second, even in their heyday those politics were never particularly effective. Remember, the only Labour leader ever to win a working majority more than once was - is - a closet Tory - remember his second preference vote in the first London Mayoral election. (Weren't the Tories saying "oh why oh why isn't he one of us" back in John Major's day?)
Third, politics are now more about identity than economics - the London Mayoralty again, next time shaping up to be a Jew versus a Muslim, or Bradford politics, or "white flight" from the cities - the list goes on and on.
Finally, the concentration of capital is creating individuals who can get elected on their personal wealth, without the need for a Party machine. Not yet in the UK, I grant you, but we often follow where the USA leads.
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LOL. Very true.MarqueeMark said:
The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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That is exactly the debate Labour appear to be having at the moment, Pure Socialist Thought or actually being electable, "debating club" or "political party"OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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TBH, I suspect having seen a lot of Jezza related tweets that some of his supporters are in a weird 1968 timewarp and wish they could attend sit-ins against Vietnam.
And then there's the ones who want to spend a lot of other people's money. I'm not sure how much they overlap. The former will excuse Jezza anything, the latter are looking at their shoes but want to spend money enough that they'll overlook his comments as inconvenient to their endgame.TCPoliticalBetting said:OGH "Corbyn’s victory means LAB will spend next 4½ years explaining the "context" of controversial past statements by its leader"
Why do Corbyn's supporters on PB not see this? Alan Johnson has 10 days to save the Labour party. Thank goodness he will not act.0 -
Either that, or pursue the George Bush approach to voters: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on..."OldKingCole said:
LOL. Very true.MarqueeMark said:
The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
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The Dear Leader didn't realize that you and your secret police existed until you didn't ... soon.MarqueeMark said:
My secret police will be most interested to note that you have no secret police to prevent your incarceration in the Far East (the Gulag of Lowestoft...)JackW said:
I have no secret police but the Dear Leader will be most interested to note that you do ....MarqueeMark said:
Comrade, my secret police are better than your secret police....JackW said:
You clearly misunderstand the full nature of C*U*N*T Holidays.MarqueeMark said:
A clearly risible scenario. Under the economic stewardship of the Dear Leader, cash will be superfluous. The Dear Leader will provide everything you need.JackW said:News From The Dear Leader (Elect)
Speakers at a Osama Bin Laden Memorial Event the soon to be acclaimed Dear Leader of the Labour Party has issued the following topical call to the faithful :
" .... and finally comrades I have decided that the evil banks whose actions precipitated the election of the unbelievers in 2010 should no longer have public holidays named generically after them. No more 'Bank Holidays'.
Instead such days of prayer for the soul of the Left and their leaders shall be changed. We shall keep a historical link to the former name whilst bringing the meaning closer to the people and their daily lives. These days will be renamed -'Cash Utilization National Terminal" Days - C*U*N*T Holidays."
Huge cheers were heard from the masses in Broxtowe Town Hall led by the former head of the re-educated 'Tories For Palmer' group and assisted by the recently appointed Jezzbollah Commissar for Nottinghamshire - Nicholas 'The Cat' Palmer - apparently so named because he expects to undergo nine political lives in the Labour Party.
Your card has been marked for expressing such doubts about the Dear Leader.
The faithful on such days exchange amounts from their accounts for paper slips with sayings from the "Islington Red Book". One in a million slips will be signed by the Dear Leader and then exchanged for a Peoples Holiday in Broxtowe Public Conveniences.
Your failure to fully acquaint yourself with the true meaning has been noted in your Re-Education File.
0 -
ydoethur said:
3) You can think that America's tactics over Osama bin Laden - the illegal invasion of a theoretically allied country, destabilising it further, what appears to have been a 'shoot on sight' policy, a severe risk to non-combatants in the operation - were unedifying and even criminally irresponsible, without describing the death of one of the 21st century's worst mass murderers as 'a tragedy'.
I think there is reason to doubt if this killing is extra-judicial within the normal meaning of that word, it certainly appears to be authorised at the highest levels of government, apparently by a panel on the National Security Council. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/us-cia-killlist-idUSTRE79475C20111005Roger said:Bid Laden might be an extreme example but it's time the so called civilized world decided whether it is acceptable for secret services to assasinate anyone they deem to be an enemy.
Israel under the protection of the US have been doing it for years. Now the Russians have adopted the practice and no one can cry foul......
0 -
Roger.. I think Mr Beria perfected the science..0
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Jezza seems to be aiming at neither!MarqueeMark said:
The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
0 -
Excellent post. Very much seconded.ydoethur said:I'm with @SouthamObserver on this, and I think, with respect, that one or two people who are questioning the premise of this thread are somewhat missing the point. It's the way Corbyn does things, as much as what he does, that's going to cause a problem, viz:
1) You can criticise the UDV/UFF and Loyalist organisations, and consider that in principle a united Ireland is the best solution for all people of that Ireland, and talk to people who agree with that aim, to try and achieve it. That's fine, even laudable. It can be done very easily without openly supporting a terrorist organisation openly responsible for the murder of numerous British subjects and trying to rationalise their crimes.
2) You can be a fierce critic of Israel's heavy-handed militarist policies, and believe that Palestinians both need and deserve a better deal than they're getting, without needing to call Hamas (a group which was for a long time bankrolled by the theocratic dictatorship of Iran) your 'friends' or openly share a platform with neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers (views which I would point out are not merely wrong and grossly offensive to Jews, but also to Austrians, Germans, Czechs, Poles and Russians).
3) You can think that America's tactics over Osama bin Laden - the illegal invasion of a theoretically allied country, destabilising it further, what appears to have been a 'shoot on sight' policy, a severe risk to non-combatants in the operation - were unedifying and even criminally irresponsible, without describing the death of one of the 21st century's worst mass murderers as 'a tragedy'.
There is a clear pattern emerging that Corbyn, a bit like Reagan, sees only good guys and bad guys. However, he has decided that the Americans and British are 'bad guys' and therefore anyone opposed to them, or their interests, must be good guys - despite the fact that even without being a starry-eyed fan of the Americans, it is easy to see why they are opposed to quite a number of homosexual-stoning, child-murdering, almost nihilist groups around the world. That leads him into doing absolutely unconscionable things like this. To put it crudely, he is now being revealed as an apologist for murderers. Even without his socio-economic agenda, which would perhaps have been cutting-edge in Khrushchev's Russia more than fifty years ago, every revelation like this will probably cost Labour one seat at the next election.
The really frightening thing is how many in the Labour party and its wider allied movement not merely cannot see this but actually think such views are both fine and praiseworthy.
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I didn't think it needed spelling out! (Markov was of course 1970s, but the principle was established by then.)CarlottaVance said:
Trotsky assassinated: 1940ydoethur said:
The Russians adopted it after the Israelis? You have heard of Trotsky and Markov (to name only the most famous)?Roger said:
Israel under the protection of the US have been doing it for years. Now the Russians have adopted the practice and no one can cry foul......
Israel founded: 1948
Of course - random pointless fact of the day searching for a tenuous connection - Trotsky was himself Jewish (real name Lev Bronstein). It's thought to be one possible reason why Stalin was preferred for the leadership after Lenin's death. I'm not totally convinced - after all, Kamenev and Zinoviev were Jewish as well - but there was certainly plenty of not-so-latent antisemitism on the Revolutionary Left in Russia.0 -
LOL! He's very good at it too.....foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza seems to be aiming at neither!MarqueeMark said:
The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
0 -
I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?0 -
There's no pleasing some people:
Osborne's £500m For Faslane Is Wrong, Says SNP
http://news.sky.com/story/1544199/osbornes-500m-for-faslane-is-wrong-says-snp0 -
Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting we clone John Major?0
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With Roger?ydoethur said:
I didn't think it needed spelling out!CarlottaVance said:
Trotsky assassinated: 1940ydoethur said:
The Russians adopted it after the Israelis? You have heard of Trotsky and Markov (to name only the most famous)?Roger said:
Israel under the protection of the US have been doing it for years. Now the Russians have adopted the practice and no one can cry foul......
Israel founded: 1948
Always worth dotting 'i's and crossing 't's! ;-)0 -
Totally agree Jonathan. But how do we achieve it? I wouldn't be willing to enter politics at this time - it's a terrible job. Had I been born forty years earlier, perhaps I might have done (although as I have no money or connections, it would have been a hard slog up from local council level - the right way, in other words)! Take a look at yourself. Would you be willing to? If not, why not?Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?
What can we do to make ordinary people, like the two of us, think that politics is something that not only should be done but can be done?
EDIT - Mr Dancer, surely a man of John Major's - ahem - energy in certain fields does not require cloning?0 -
Are you suggesting that the few beautiful, tender moments he shared with Edwina Currie is enough to qualify as a life?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting we clone John Major?
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Excellent response.Innocent_Abroad said:
So why don't they?MarqueeMark said:
There's a lot of Tories would agree. The blank sheet of paper on their economic offering in the last manifesto was ample evidence of that.Innocent_Abroad said:
Not at all. I was writing on here that the Labour Party is an idea whose time has gone before he announced his candidacy.MarqueeMark said:
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what a nasty little bigot he is.
JC and I have viscerally disliked each other since the 1970s, but it's not true that my enemy's enemy is my friend. That's just a Jeffersonian excuse.
C'mon, centre-left - get your shit together....
Several reasons. First, the collapse of solidarity, whether in terms of mass Trade Unionism or "owes more to Methodism than to Marxism" - an individualistic society such as we now live in simply doesn't need "centre left" politics in the way the 20th century did.
Second, even in their heyday those politics were never particularly effective. Remember, the only Labour leader ever to win a working majority more than once was - is - a closet Tory - remember his second preference vote in the first London Mayoral election. (Weren't the Tories saying "oh why oh why isn't he one of us" back in John Major's day?)
Third, politics are now more about identity than economics - the London Mayoralty again, next time shaping up to be a Jew versus a Muslim, or Bradford politics, or "white flight" from the cities - the list goes on and on.
Finally, the concentration of capital is creating individuals who can get elected on their personal wealth, without the need for a Party machine. Not yet in the UK, I grant you, but we often follow where the USA leads.
I'm not sure I take the point about us being a more individualistic society, at a time when the internet and social media can draw groups together like never before. Would Corbyn be winning the Labour leadership without the power of the net to collect the like-minded together and become such a unified force? It is certainly a great tool to brow-beat the uncertain individual...0 -
I thought that was Cameron (and Osborne)!MarqueeMark said:
Either that, or pursue the George Bush approach to voters: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on..."OldKingCole said:
LOL. Very true.MarqueeMark said:
The trick is to be both....OldKingCole said:
Is it better to be right or popular?Indigo said:
I think you are demonstrating one of the many reason why the LDs got the vote they did. The public's appetite for sanctimony, especially when talking about terrorists is pretty limited.OldKingCole said:
Like Galtieri you mean. Reagan’s friend.richardDodd said:OKC The Yanks could have saved a bullet and just done the drop..
0 -
Ugh. Jonathan, why did you put that image in my head just after breakfast on a wet, miserable last day of the summer holidays? Could you please pass the mind bleach?Jonathan said:
Are you suggesting that the few beautiful, tender moments he shared with Edwina Currie is enough to qualify as a life?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting we clone John Major?
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Mr. Jonathan/Mr. Doethur, I was thinking of his fondness for cricket, rather than his taste for curry.
Honestly.0 -
Cyclefree
"Yes there are and they are repelled by Corbyn. The U.S. asked Afghanistan to give up Bin Laden after 9/11. They didn't. Nor did Pakistan. Hence the action they took. Second, the U.S. has put others involved with 9/11 on trial"
This doesn't sound like a rule most liberals would find very liberal. Would you extend the same extradition rules to Hamas who want to put Netanyahu amongst others on trial for war crimes? Rules for the most powerful that don't apply to anyone else isn't very liberal.
As an aside those who spent decades in Guantanamo Bay wouldn't have your unquestioning faith in US justice0 -
Thank you Mr Dancer, the mindbleach has worked. I am now reflecting on how badly England will be hammered in the forthcoming one-day series.
May I nominate that last subclause for pun of the day?0 -
I suspect this correspondence means that you and I will both be sharing our brief twilight years in the snowy wastelands of the Lowestoft Gulag.JackW said:
The Dear Leader didn't realize that you and your secret police existed until you didn't ... soon.
I have to go. There is a knock at the door....0 -
I can understand why lefties dislike Major: he was just one of the many Conservatives that have been PM since a Labour leader last won a general election in 1976.Jonathan said:
Are you suggesting that the few beautiful, tender moments he shared with Edwina Currie is enough to qualify as a life?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting we clone John Major?
Because Blair is now, apparently, a Conservative ...
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With the recent revelations of JC I would think that was flirting with slandering Farage. Granted he is a bit fruitcakey for a lot of peoples tastes, and has some views which would appear at home in the 1950s, but I can't recall him every suggesting giving aid and succour to the enemies of the state, or inviting terrorists to visit the country, or described people counselling the killing of British soldiers as friends. I think we have to be careful to differential those politicians that add to the gaiety of the nation, from those which are know to be sympathetic with causes which put our country at risk.Jonathan said:It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
0 -
Farron went to Newcastle Uni. Although he did read Politics.ydoethur said:
Totally agree Jonathan. But how do we achieve it? I wouldn't be willing to enter politics at this time - it's a terrible job. Had I been born forty years earlier, perhaps I might have done (although as I have no money or connections, it would have been a hard slog up from local council level - the right way, in other words)! Take a look at yourself. Would you be willing to? If not, why not?Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?
What can we do to make ordinary people, like the two of us, think that politics is something that not only should be done but can be done?
EDIT - Mr Dancer, surely a man of John Major's - ahem - energy in certain fields does not require cloning?0 -
I think the following quote is relevant to this thread:-
"Mistaken ideas always end in bloodshed but in every case it is someone else's blood. That is why some of our thinkers feel free to say just about anything." (Albert Camus)
Totalitarianism of the Left, much like an earlier totalitarianism of the Right, is about violence and power and control and it appeals because of these features not in spite of them.
Corbyn and his backers are not just deluded old fools. They are malign old fools.0 -
But since this isn't Handwringing.com, the question has to remain, how many potential voters, and especially swing voters, will actually care what happened to OBL and how so long as he is gone.Roger said:Cyclefree
"Yes there are and they are repelled by Corbyn. The U.S. asked Afghanistan to give up Bin Laden after 9/11. They didn't. Nor did Pakistan. Hence the action they took. Second, the U.S. has put others involved with 9/11 on trial"
This doesn't sound like a rule most liberals would find very liberal. Would you extend the same extradition rules to Hamas who want to put Netanyahu amongst others on trial for war crimes? Rules for the most powerful that don't apply to anyone else isn't very liberal.
As an aside those who spent decades in Guantanamo Bay wouldn't have your unquestioning faith in US justice
It's all very well to sit in a comfortable armchair and pontificate, but if you are the executive and you have strong intelligence that a given individual has caused and is continuing to cause the death of American people, and yet he is in a sympathetic area that is protecting him, what do you do, wring your hands and tell the people whose sons and daughter die as a result that you are sorry but your principles were so precious to you that you kept a terrorist leader alive and let their children die. Doesn't sound like a winner at the ballot box to me.0 -
Mr. Indigo, are you suggesting Corbyn-led Labour might detoxify UKIP?
0 -
The politics of Newcastle United would keep you busy for three years. And post-grad...OldKingCole said:
Farron went to Newcastle Uni. Although he did read Politics.ydoethur said:
Totally agree Jonathan. But how do we achieve it? I wouldn't be willing to enter politics at this time - it's a terrible job. Had I been born forty years earlier, perhaps I might have done (although as I have no money or connections, it would have been a hard slog up from local council level - the right way, in other words)! Take a look at yourself. Would you be willing to? If not, why not?Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?
What can we do to make ordinary people, like the two of us, think that politics is something that not only should be done but can be done?
EDIT - Mr Dancer, surely a man of John Major's - ahem - energy in certain fields does not require cloning?0 -
Roger .. Decades..in Guantanamo..really..not too hot on the maths are you..0
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Its a possibility, lots of the attacks on UKIP the Labourites would prefer to use could no longer be attempted with a straight face, everyone would point at their leader and laugh.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, are you suggesting Corbyn-led Labour might detoxify UKIP?
0 -
One thing did occur to me about that story though: does anyone notice how Osborne says "my investment" rather than "our/the government's investment?"CarlottaVance said:There's no pleasing some people:
Osborne's £500m For Faslane Is Wrong, Says SNP
http://news.sky.com/story/1544199/osbornes-500m-for-faslane-is-wrong-says-snp
It seemed an odd way of putting it. Almost as if he's getting carried away and now thinks he is the government. First sign of hubris due to Labour's infighting and everyone swooning over him for the majority they thought would never come?
And if so, what are the bets on his first massive mistake?0 -
You always try and put words in my mouth. I don't have an unquestioning faith in US justice but the point about Guantanamo is that it is outside the U.S. Justice system. You also left out the third point I made which is that, even if you think someone should in an ideal world be put on trial there is no need to describe the death of a revolting mass murderer as a tragedy.Roger said:Cyclefree
"Yes there are and they are repelled by Corbyn. The U.S. asked Afghanistan to give up Bin Laden after 9/11. They didn't. Nor did Pakistan. Hence the action they took. Second, the U.S. has put others involved with 9/11 on trial"
This doesn't sound like a rule most liberals would find very liberal. Would you extend the same extradition rules to Hamas who want to put Netanyahu amongst others on trial for war crimes? Rules for the most powerful that don't apply to anyone else isn't very liberal.
As an aside those who spent decades in Guantanamo Bay wouldn't have your unquestioning faith in US justice
And as for Hamas, they are not liberals, they do not believe in a judicial system, they carry out assassinations all the time and are an example to no-one. They seek to use the rule of law very selectively and only when it suits them. Much like Corbyn, who is only in favour of speaking to people and hearing what they have to say very selectively - listening to anti -Semites is fine but allowing the Israeli Foreign Minister into the country is not.
Corbyn does not even abide by the principles he claims to have.
0 -
Mr. Doethur, surely you're not questioning the will of Caesar Osborne?
Sounds like a fair comment.0 -
Someone needs to do a piece on how UKIP managed to screw up 2014-5. They were always going to fall back after the highs of the Euros. But to come out of the GE with more votes, but one MP and zero momentum was quite an achievement.
Feels like they have another roll of the dice in the 2017 referendum and 2019 Euro elections and therefore need to work out what went so wrong.0 -
Corbyn has had no life other than politics. He is an example of exactly the problem you are describing not an antidote to it.Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?
0 -
Brown did it as well, and probably most Chancellors before himydoethur said:
One thing did occur to me about that story though: does anyone notice how Osborne says "my investment" rather than "our/the government's investment?"CarlottaVance said:There's no pleasing some people:
Osborne's £500m For Faslane Is Wrong, Says SNP
http://news.sky.com/story/1544199/osbornes-500m-for-faslane-is-wrong-says-snp
It seemed an odd way of putting it. Almost as if he's getting carried away and now thinks he is the government. First sign of hubris due to Labour's infighting and everyone swooning over him for the majority they thought would never come?
And if so, what are the bets on his first massive mistake?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/mar/16/economy.ukBut it is right also to put this primary school programme on a long term footing. So the secretary for education and I now plan to invest even more - a total of £2bn in 2008-9 and £2.3bn in 2009-10, a total investment over the next five years in primary schools alone of £9.4bn.
0 -
We had an election in '76 ?JosiasJessop said:
I can understand why lefties dislike Major: he was just one of the many Conservatives that have been PM since a Labour leader last won a general election in 1976.Jonathan said:
Are you suggesting that the few beautiful, tender moments he shared with Edwina Currie is enough to qualify as a life?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, are you suggesting we clone John Major?
Because Blair is now, apparently, a Conservative ...0 -
Indeed. His first wife said they'd divorced as he spent all his time photocopying pamphlets and living politics in preference to anything else.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn has had no life other than politics. He is an example of exactly the problem you are describing not an antidote to it.Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?0 -
I'd very much like to know exactly why Nick Palmer an ex MP who knows the way of politics has voted for Corbyn. It does not make any sense to me , and as sure as eggs are eggs he would not have done had he still been an MP.. Is it being out of politics and not caring any more?>0
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Roger, Mr Cole,
This moral equivalence lark is a bit tricky, isn't it?
Not the nine o'clock news considered this ,,,,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWa3LyvFOdc
You can understand Jezza's views - one of his "friends" has been murdered. I used to disagree with the CIA's reported efforts to assassinate another of Jezza's friends, Fidel Castro.
That was until I discovered he'd written to Kruschev during the Cuban missile crisis demanding that he start World War Three. Send another batch of exploding cigars, says I.0 -
I know, that was my point.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn has had no life other than politics. He is an example of exactly the problem you are describing not an antidote to it.Jonathan said:I am no Corbyn fan and agree that he has crossed the line in many of his statements. Beyond that, there is something worrying about the issue in this thread.
It seems these days people complain constantly that empty suit politicians come off the PPE production line with no past (like Milliband, Cameron and Farron) and then react and embrace 'colourful' extreme politicians (like Corbyn and Farage).
Wouldn't it be rather nice if we could ditch both? Wouldn't it be great if we had politicians with a normal past, who could enter politics without fear of expose, nor need to play up to the mob. People with a dare I say it, a life?0 -
Mr. Jonathan, not sure that's needed. UKIP did what they've done for the last half dozen elections. They campaign stupidly, spreading support wide and shallow. It's as if they either don't care or don't understand how FPTP works.
If they'd focused on 6-12 seats, they'd have multiple MPs. Instead, they've got 1.
That said, if Labour collapses [still think Labour will not disintegrate entirely], they'd placed to sweep the north, with many second places.0 -
All excellent points.Innocent_Abroad said:
So why don't they?MarqueeMark said:
There's a lot of Tories would agree. The blank sheet of paper on their economic offering in the last manifesto was ample evidence of that.Innocent_Abroad said:
Not at all. I was writing on here that the Labour Party is an idea whose time has gone before he announced his candidacy.MarqueeMark said:
What a weird post. Just how rattled are you by the prospect of the election of Jeremy Corbyn?Innocent_Abroad said:
It takes one to know one. I suppose you prefer the exercise of power to behaving ethically - Thomas Jefferson was right to own slaves and Harriet Beecher Stowe was wrong to write Uncle Tom's Cabin, eh?TGOHF said:Corbyn supporters do not care about winning elections - being pure is enough.
Lolza for everyone else though - what bigot he is.
But there are plenty of Tories who are bemused that there isn't a half-way decent alternative offered from the centre-left to keep the Government on its toes. Apart from the Bat-shit Crazy Leftist toss offered by Corbyn (how is that buyer's remorse coming along, hey guys?) none of the other three candidates has shown how they would run a country where there is no option to borrow to fund a public sector, and a very limited scope to tax without reducing existing tax revenues and ending up killing the NHS....
C'mon, centre-left - get your shit together....
Several reasons. First, the collapse of solidarity, whether in terms of mass Trade Unionism or "owes more to Methodism than to Marxism" - an individualistic society such as we now live in simply doesn't need "centre left" politics in the way the 20th century did.
Second, even in their heyday those politics were never particularly effective. Remember, the only Labour leader ever to win a working majority more than once was - is - a closet Tory - remember his second preference vote in the first London Mayoral election. (Weren't the Tories saying "oh why oh why isn't he one of us" back in John Major's day?)
Third, politics are now more about identity than economics - the London Mayoralty again, next time shaping up to be a Jew versus a Muslim, or Bradford politics, or "white flight" from the cities - the list goes on and on.
Finally, the concentration of capital is creating individuals who can get elected on their personal wealth, without the need for a Party machine. Not yet in the UK, I grant you, but we often follow where the USA leads.
Whereas the Conservative Party has survived the the decline of the Church of England, the Labour Party has been hit hard by the decline of Nonconformism. The growth of Islam is only a partial replacement.
0 -
Well - maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Brown seems to be saying what he planned to do with the available money, and Osborne appears to be saying it is his money. Which it isn't. I'm thinking there are early signs that a move for Osborne might be a good thing.Indigo said:
Brown did it as well, and probably most Chancellors before himydoethur said:
One thing did occur to me about that story though: does anyone notice how Osborne says "my investment" rather than "our/the government's investment?"CarlottaVance said:There's no pleasing some people:
Osborne's £500m For Faslane Is Wrong, Says SNP
http://news.sky.com/story/1544199/osbornes-500m-for-faslane-is-wrong-says-snp
It seemed an odd way of putting it. Almost as if he's getting carried away and now thinks he is the government. First sign of hubris due to Labour's infighting and everyone swooning over him for the majority they thought would never come?
And if so, what are the bets on his first massive mistake?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/mar/16/economy.ukBut it is right also to put this primary school programme on a long term footing. So the secretary for education and I now plan to invest even more - a total of £2bn in 2008-9 and £2.3bn in 2009-10, a total investment over the next five years in primary schools alone of £9.4bn.
In any case, Brown may not be a great example
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I wonder if Corbyn has any publicly expressed musings on 9/11 conspiracy theories...?0
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More likely that Osborne is happy to take the flak and keep it off Daveydoethur said:
One thing did occur to me about that story though: does anyone notice how Osborne says "my investment" rather than "our/the government's investment?"CarlottaVance said:There's no pleasing some people:
Osborne's £500m For Faslane Is Wrong, Says SNP
http://news.sky.com/story/1544199/osbornes-500m-for-faslane-is-wrong-says-snp
It seemed an odd way of putting it. Almost as if he's getting carried away and now thinks he is the government. First sign of hubris due to Labour's infighting and everyone swooning over him for the majority they thought would never come?
And if so, what are the bets on his first massive mistake?0 -
To go from winning the Euros to just one seat at the GE is a big turnaround. No doubt misplaying FPTP is part of it, but it seemed to be more than that. The Tory campaign was important, UKIP really had nothing to say in comparison.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, not sure that's needed. UKIP did what they've done for the last half dozen elections. They campaign stupidly, spreading support wide and shallow. It's as if they either don't care or don't understand how FPTP works.
If they'd focused on 6-12 seats, they'd have multiple MPs. Instead, they've got 1.
That said, if Labour collapses [still think Labour will not disintegrate entirely], they'd placed to sweep the north, with many second places.0 -
It's also worth pointing out (and I agree Innocent Abroad's post was excellent) that Nonconformism has declined to a much greater extent than Anglicanism despite in practice starting from probably a very slightly higher base, and is particularly antithetic to the individualistic society.Sean_F said:
All excellent points.Innocent_Abroad said:
So why don't they?
Several reasons. First, the collapse of solidarity, whether in terms of mass Trade Unionism or "owes more to Methodism than to Marxism" - an individualistic society such as we now live in simply doesn't need "centre left" politics in the way the 20th century did.
Second, even in their heyday those politics were never particularly effective. Remember, the only Labour leader ever to win a working majority more than once was - is - a closet Tory - remember his second preference vote in the first London Mayoral election. (Weren't the Tories saying "oh why oh why isn't he one of us" back in John Major's day?)
Third, politics are now more about identity than economics - the London Mayoralty again, next time shaping up to be a Jew versus a Muslim, or Bradford politics, or "white flight" from the cities - the list goes on and on.
Finally, the concentration of capital is creating individuals who can get elected on their personal wealth, without the need for a Party machine. Not yet in the UK, I grant you, but we often follow where the USA leads.
Whereas the Conservative Party has survived the the decline of the Church of England, the Labour Party has been hit hard by the decline of Nonconformism. The growth of Islam is only a partial replacement.
Moreover, of course, the other base of the Labour left - a large, unionised industrial workforce, mostly under the control of the state - has largely gone, in a way that small and medium-sized private enterprises (the lifeblood of the Tories' electoral appeal) have not.0 -
Morning all
My initial thought on the death of OBL is the only "tragic" aspect was he wasn't dragged before the International Criminal Court in chains, made to face the families of those he had murdered and then faced the long drop.
Of course, a cynic might also argue the execution prevented the release, in open court, of evidence which might not have been very comfortable for Washington regarding some of its earlier contacts with OBL. Killing him meant his voice would never be heard.
As someone opined last evening and it was my impression on seeing the Marr interview, Corbyn is or pretends to be academic. In his world, there's very little black and white and plenty of shades of grey. On Ulster, in Corbyn's world, ALL killings are to be condemned equally but that puts the IRA and the British Army on the same level and that, for the vast majority of people, is wholly unacceptable.
In the Middle East, the West is guilty of perpetuating mass murder through its interventions so we finish up on the same level as Hamas, Hezbollah and OBL. Again, wholly unacceptable in the court of public opinion but as an argument, in the back streets of cable television or at an obscure philosophical grouping, one that can be made.
Out of power, with little or no influence, the unacceptable can be entertained and dialogue had with those who cannot converse with the Government openly in the academic pursuit of hearing a broad spectrum of opinion.
I don't object to that - plurality of politics means a plurality of opinions but it's not good enough to receive the discordant view and not challenge it. I would love to be able to hear those with radical and extreme views properly and strongly debated, not treated with kid gloves and praise. In a free and open society, we cannot be afraid of those with opinions markedly at odds with the conventional wisdom - challenge that wisdom by all means but also challenge those who believe in the opposite with the same rigour and vigour.
Corbyn's weakness is not the company he keeps but how he keeps it - it's not that he doesn't condemn murder - he does - but he fails to distinguish between those who are representatives of a democratically elected Government and those who do so purely and simply to impose their own view on the population.
I think our politics would be poorer if the likes of Corbyn didn't exist but that doesn't mean I would want them anywhere near power or pretend they are in any way representative of the general view.
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