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@Plato
'TBH, even discounting for Mr Palmer's inbuilt bias towards Labour - I too just read his posts here and think Meh, You'll Say Anything To Be On The Winning Side.'
Going from Blairite via EdM via Vote For Yvette to Corbyn just snapped my credulity.'
A great example of a Tony Benn weathercock, a principle and conviction free zone.
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Not guilty, JackW!JackW said:"Old Whig"
You are our follicular challenged Liberal OGH and I claim your vintage sandals for a charity auction in aid of the "John O" Spontaneous Railway Travel Scheme.
I am my own man, I assure you. Any resemblance to OGH in my postings is purely good fortune on my part.
I do live in Barnet, though, and as I am sure you know already, "Barnet" is rhyming slang for "Hair".
PS - Though a Whig, I am prepared to let bygones be bygones with Jacobites!
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Temple Blown Up
The Temple of Palmera in Broxtowe has been finally destroyed by Conservative insurgents. Palmera is known as the Nottinghamshire site of ancient ruins of left wingery in British politics.
Early excavations had shown some Communist artefacts but most of the remains were found to be from the Blairite Dynasty with later embellishments from the Brown period. Most recently it has been reported that there was some evidence that the short lived Corbynism Cult may also have held sway before the final fall of the Evil Empire.
It was thought earlier this year that there may have been a counter offensive that would have secured the Temple of Palmera for future generations but this hope was in vain as the forces of Conservativism strengthened their grip on the area.0 -
Everytime I think it can't get any more WTF - it does. Tory Jews is a corker though - The Great Satan made flesh.SimonStClare said:
Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985.Plato said:Can someone help me here - did Comrade Corbyn vote against the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985?
I'm unfamiliar with this subject as a whole.
Speaking in the House of Commons Jeremy Corbyn, MP for Islington North, spoke to oppose the treaty saying that it ran counter to the goal of a United Ireland:[28]
JC: “ Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of us oppose the agreement for reasons other than those that he has given? We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason.”
He then went on to express concerns that the agreement threatened Irish neutrality and risked forcing the Republic of Ireland to accept the British presence in Northern Ireland. The former cabinet minister Tony Benn and Ken Livingstone, then leader of the Greater London Council, also opposed the agreement because they believed Britain should withdraw from Northern Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Agreement0 -
To be biased against Corbyn all you need is to be grounded in reality.SandyRentool said:
Biased against Corbyn, you mean?JEO said:I didn't realise the Director of Television of the BBC was one James Purnell... no wonder they are so biased.
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ydoethur said:
He did: the voting list is at the bottom of this post:Plato said:Can someone help me here - did Comrade Corbyn vote against the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985?
I'm unfamiliar with this subject as a whole.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/27/anglo-irish-agreement
Must have been one of the few times he voted with Iain Paisley!0 -
Further investigation is clearly required ....Disraeli said:
Not guilty, JackW!JackW said:"Old Whig"
You are our follicular challenged Liberal OGH and I claim your vintage sandals for a charity auction in aid of the "John O" Spontaneous Railway Travel Scheme.
I am my own man, I assure you. Any resemblance to OGH in my postings is purely good fortune on my part.
I do live in Barnet, though, and as I am sure you know already, "Barnet" is rhyming slang for "Hair".
PS - Though a Whig, I am prepared to let bygones be bygones with Jacobites!
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*APPLAUSE*JackW said:
Temple Blown Up
The Temple of Palmera in Broxtowe has been finally destroyed by Conservative insurgents. Palmera is known as the Nottinghamshire site of ancient ruins of left wingery in British politics.
Early excavations had shown some Communist artefacts but most of the remains were found to be from the Blairite Dynasty with later embellishments from the Brown period. Most recently it has been reported that there was some evidence that the short lived Corbynism Cult may also have held sway before the final fall of the Evil Empire.
It was thought earlier this year that there may have been a counter offensive that would have secured the Temple of Palmera for future generations but this hope was in vain as the forces of Conservativism strengthened their grip on the area.0 -
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
Isn't Wareham in the current Richard Drax's constituency? Thumping majority as well, IIRC
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Isn't Wareham in the current Richard Drax's constituency? Thumping majority as well, IIRCCharles said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
Yes, and he still lives in the same house as his however-many-greats grandfather as well.0 -
To say anything to win, and yet be on the losing side twice says a lot.john_zims said:@Plato
'TBH, even discounting for Mr Palmer's inbuilt bias towards Labour - I too just read his posts here and think Meh, You'll Say Anything To Be On The Winning Side.'
Going from Blairite via EdM via Vote For Yvette to Corbyn just snapped my credulity.'
A great example of a Tony Benn weathercock, a principle and conviction free zone.0 -
Isn't that who has issued the debt rather than who holds it?Plato said:After all this debt chat and China...
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/6350626182652518400 -
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.
Edit: Ninja'd, bugger.0 -
Yes, and he still lives in the same house as his however-many-greats grandfather as well.ydoethur said:
Isn't Wareham in the current Richard Drax's constituency? Thumping majority as well, IIRCCharles said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
It's nice enough, but a little OTT for my taste, to be honest.0 -
JackW said:
Temple Blown Up
The Temple of Palmera in Broxtowe has been finally destroyed by Conservative insurgents. Palmera is known as the Nottinghamshire site of ancient ruins of left wingery in British politics.
Early excavations had shown some Communist artefacts but most of the remains were found to be from the Blairite Dynasty with later embellishments from the Brown period. Most recently it has been reported that there was some evidence that the short lived Corbynism Cult may also have held sway before the final fall of the Evil Empire.
It was thought earlier this year that there may have been a counter offensive that would have secured the Temple of Palmera for future generations but this hope was in vain as the forces of Conservativism strengthened their grip on the area.
Good post - very witty.
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Drax is not the MP for Wareham; Wareham is part of the Mid Dorset and North Poole constituency.0
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I wonder if Jezza would ever call those three marines on the train his friends?
That's the main issue with him. Dr P believes he will morph into a friendly uncle ... the Soviets tried that with Uncle Joe, and with as much success.
But fortunately Nick will be saved from his delusions by Jezza mania hitting the buffers. The Andrex puppy or the Mogadon pixie will win and Labour will breathe a huge sigh of relief.0 -
Are you saying the Tories are Isis JackW?JackW said:Temple Blown Up
The Temple of Palmera in Broxtowe has been finally destroyed by Conservative insurgents. Palmera is known as the Nottinghamshire site of ancient ruins of left wingery in British politics.
Early excavations had shown some Communist artefacts but most of the remains were found to be from the Blairite Dynasty with later embellishments from the Brown period. Most recently it has been reported that there was some evidence that the short lived Corbynism Cult may also have held sway before the final fall of the Evil Empire.
It was thought earlier this year that there may have been a counter offensive that would have secured the Temple of Palmera for future generations but this hope was in vain as the forces of Conservativism strengthened their grip on the area.0 -
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.HurstLlama said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
They even survived the embarrassment of Sir Hugo Drax trying to explode an atomic weapon over London.0 -
I just don't know what Labour are thinking of, if they elect such a man as their leader. Are they thinking?Sean_F said:Plato said:Another Corker For Corbyn http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/11/labour-mp-calls-for-public-inquiry-into-jewish-influence-in-the-conservative-party/
Jews in the Tory Party!
In response to Raed Salah lawyer...“Could I just add to that, that I think the public inquiry under the Public Inquiries Act is the best course of action to take, because normally one would have said that the appropriate Select Committee in Parliament would undertake this inquiry, but I think the issues go far wider than parliamentary procedure, they go to the heart of what’s going on in the Home Office and the way the government makes decisions, so I strongly support that and I will be writing to the Home Secretary accordingly.”
No. It's an emotional spasm. It's the equivalent of the vicious resignation letter setting out all the bad things about your employer, you colleagues etc, which makes you feel a lot better once written but which should then be thrown away. Only in this case, Labour are pressing the Reply All button.0 -
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
The ballot might have been secret but Mr Erle-Drax was refreshingly transparent. I can visualise him and I'm not going to risk spoiling it by Googling him.0 -
Mr. W, good post. Humour's important for mocking extremism (which is why the increasing censorship around taking the piss of Islam is so serious. A priest being on trial for being mean about another religion is bloody daft, not to mention a cartoon exhibition being cancelled. We're at risk of letting humourless murderers dictate the terms of freedom of speech).0
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They even survived the embarrassment of Sir Hugo Drax trying to explode an atomic weapon over London.Sean_F said:
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.HurstLlama said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
There are conflicting reports on that incident. Other, eyebrow raising sources, claim Drax was actually planning global genocide and to personally repopulate the Earth with his progeny.0 -
Mike, I don't think you'd get a ballot pack, all you £3 sign ups get to vote online.0
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The postal ballot pack has other elections in it for members.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike, I don't think you'd get a ballot pack, all you £3 sign ups get to vote online.
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The ballot might have been secret but Mr Erle-Drax was refreshingly transparent. I can visualise him and I'm not going to risk spoiling it by Googling him.ReggieCide said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
Likewise. I imagine him as a Squire Haggard figure, if you remember Haggard; he had a column in Telegraph back in the 1980s when the Telegraph was a proper newspaper and not afraid to publish forthright opinions from robust gentlemen.0 -
Using the music of Rick Astley to mock extremists is much more fun.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, good post. Humour's important for mocking extremism (which is why the increasing censorship around taking the piss of Islam is so serious. A priest being on trial for being mean about another religion is bloody daft, not to mention a cartoon exhibition being cancelled. We're at risk of letting humourless murderers dictate the terms of freedom of speech).
Foo fighters ‘Rick Rolled’ Westboro Baptist Church and it was brilliant
http://bit.ly/1PM66wr0 -
Corbyn's about to win, so the answer to this has to be "yes".JosiasJessop said:
Strangely, they stand a good chance of electing one of the men most guilty for that disastrous infighting as deputy leader.ThreeQuidder said:
Absolutely agreed. The TB-GB war wiped out a whole generation of Labour talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What are the main reasons in your view for the terrible choice of candidates. My view is it stems from the malign influence of Brown on rivals from his generation.bigjohnowls said:
Are Labour deliberately trying to destroy themselves?
Might not be the worst thing for Labour, a pause to allow a new generation to gain experience grow into the roles. Wouldn't be good for the country though.0 -
Thanks, seems odd for Mike to get purged, but the cat wasn't Purr-gedJonathan said:
The postal ballot pack has other elections in it for members.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike, I don't think you'd get a ballot pack, all you £3 sign ups get to vote online.
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There are conflicting reports on that incident. Other, eyebrow raising sources, claim Drax was actually planning global genocide and to personally repopulate the Earth with his progeny.Jonathan said:
They even survived the embarrassment of Sir Hugo Drax trying to explode an atomic weapon over London.Sean_F said:
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.HurstLlama said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
From a radar invisible space station launched from Dorchester?0 -
Peak Guardian?
Are my hungry cat and I using more than our fair share of the ocean’s resources?
http://bit.ly/1PJF7BP0 -
Flightpath my dear fellow, you are talking complete bollocks again, and without a trace of embarrassment what is more, still just so long as you are toeing the party line eh ?flightpath01 said:
And you are a pot calling a kettle black.
We leave the EU ? There will be no difference to staying in. None that any normal person can see to their daily lives.
So go ahead leave - see if I care.
The only possibility is a downside - there are no upsides. Leaving and agreeing some deal which leaves us in the single market will make no practical difference at all. And were we to leave, any future EU 'free trade agreement' would mean joining the single market and free movement of EU labour.
The downsides are all to to with uncertainty, fake guarantees that it will be 'better', a pretence that overseas investors would carry on as normal if we did for some reason refuse all EU ties, that the whole exercise would not give them cold feet anyway.
We leave, we join the EEA, no change. So what?
The 'what' is all down to your thick stupid Corbyn-like bigotry.
No upsides ? Really ? No chance of being able to sign our own trade agreement with China, which Switzerland did earlier in the year but which the EU has just put back over the horizon as being to difficult to satisfy all the parties involved ? Or TTIP, which is about to get kicked into the long grass by the EU ?
No chance of being able to apply only the regulations our customers require to the products we sell them, as is the case of most of our competitors, rather than having to apply EU regulations to all non-EU and domestic exports even when the customer does not require them.
Not the slightest chance of trading with all the other (growing) trading blocks in the world on our own terms, rather than being shackled to the only trading block in the entire world with a contracting market ?
It would indeed mean the free movement of Labour (i.e. people with a job), but not critically the free movement of people, and no obligation to pay anyone any benefits.
And you talk like there was no uncertainty with ever closer union, no chance of another Greece, no chance of being outvoted by all the euro-zone countries ? Not the slightest chance of getting overrun by immigrants from the third world because we can't control our own borders.
I suggest you calm down, and look at a few information sources other than your nice set of briefings from CCHQ, and take a wider perspective.0 -
Pat Smear looks no older now than he did 20 years agoTheScreamingEagles said:
Using the music of Rick Astley to mock extremists is much more fun.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, good post. Humour's important for mocking extremism (which is why the increasing censorship around taking the piss of Islam is so serious. A priest being on trial for being mean about another religion is bloody daft, not to mention a cartoon exhibition being cancelled. We're at risk of letting humourless murderers dictate the terms of freedom of speech).
Foo fighters ‘Rick Rolled’ Westboro Baptist Church and it was brilliant
http://bit.ly/1PM66wr0 -
It has to be doesn't it. Reading the headline I was hugely confused - where were the Gulf Arabs? In proper context there seem no surprises except it does show up how tiny Greece is, making me wonder how it was dressed up as so important for anyone other than a Greek.JEO said:
Isn't that who has issued the debt rather than who holds it?Plato said:After all this debt chat and China...
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/6350626182652518400 -
There are conflicting reports on that incident. Other, eyebrow raising sources, claim Drax was actually planning global genocide and to personally repopulate the Earth with his progeny.Jonathan said:
They even survived the embarrassment of Sir Hugo Drax trying to explode an atomic weapon over London.Sean_F said:
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.HurstLlama said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
Whatever the exact truth of the matter, he was clearly the black sheep of the family.0 -
Mr. Eagles, already seen that, as I imagine you've seen Julius Caesar's epic rap battle with Shaka Zulu.0
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Will they be there to grow into the roles? If you were an up and coming Blairite MP, having been elected in 2010 or 2015, and facing a Labour Party led by Corbyn, his hanger-ons and the unions, why would you want to remain?ThreeQuidder said:
Corbyn's about to win, so the answer to this has to be "yes".JosiasJessop said:
Strangely, they stand a good chance of electing one of the men most guilty for that disastrous infighting as deputy leader.ThreeQuidder said:
Absolutely agreed. The TB-GB war wiped out a whole generation of Labour talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What are the main reasons in your view for the terrible choice of candidates. My view is it stems from the malign influence of Brown on rivals from his generation.bigjohnowls said:
Are Labour deliberately trying to destroy themselves?
Might not be the worst thing for Labour, a pause to allow a new generation to gain experience grow into the roles. Wouldn't be good for the country though.
The despicable rhetoric thrown against Kendall - who has been a loyal Labour MP - by people supporting a massively disloyal MP is an indication of what will happen after Corbyn wins. Why would they want to remain given this rhetoric, especially when it is likely that Corbyn and the unions will just select more hard-left candidates.
Of all the options in my list below, a split in the Labour party is looking the most likely. Corbyn wasn't loyal to the party, but he will demand loyalty from it.0 -
The Liberals went from c.260 MPs in 1914 to 40 in 1924. Parties can collapse, and once you go beyond a certain point, FPTP exaggerates that collapse, and makes it almost impossible to recover.SeanT said:
Yes. It is quite easy to see a trajectory which takes Labour from electing Corbyn to the total disappearance of the party as a serious electoral force: because Corbyn will carefully preserve the system that installed him, the leftist activists will then SWARM into the party, sensible Labourites will finally leave in despair, the next leader of Labour after Corbyn will be Owen Jones's leftier nephew, and in the famous election of 2025 Labour will be reduced to 30 MPs.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
All this is very possible of the Jezbollah win the day. Alternatively, Labour might be entering a period of "good chaos" if we are to believe Doctor Palmer.
Canada affords a good example of once-powerful parties (eg Union Nationale, Social Credit, Progressive Conservatives, Parti Quebecois) being swept away for good.
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Was thinking the other day that Blair's relationship with Labour resembles Lloyds-George's or possibly Asquith's relationship with Liberals. 1997=1906?Sean_F said:
The Liberals went from c.260 MPs in 1914 to 40 in 1924. Parties can collapse, and once you go beyond a certain point, FPTP exaggerates that collapse, and makes it almost impossible to recover.SeanT said:
Yes. It is quite easy to see a trajectory which takes Labour from electing Corbyn to the total disappearance of the party as a serious electoral force: because Corbyn will carefully preserve the system that installed him, the leftist activists will then SWARM into the party, sensible Labourites will finally leave in despair, the next leader of Labour after Corbyn will be Owen Jones's leftier nephew, and in the famous election of 2025 Labour will be reduced to 30 MPs.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
All this is very possible of the Jezbollah win the day. Alternatively, Labour might be entering a period of "good chaos" if we are to believe Doctor Palmer.0 -
Of course he would. After all, he isn't implying ideological sympathy with these terms - it's just diplomatic language to help bring about conciliation in disputes. This is demonstrated by all the times he referred to "my friend Bibi Netanyahu" or when he called the Reverend Ian Paisley, "an honoured citizen".CD13 said:I wonder if Jezza would ever call those three marines on the train his friends?
0 -
From a radar invisible space station launched from Dorchester?watford30 said:
There are conflicting reports on that incident. Other, eyebrow raising sources, claim Drax was actually planning global genocide and to personally repopulate the Earth with his progeny.Jonathan said:
They even survived the embarrassment of Sir Hugo Drax trying to explode an atomic weapon over London.Sean_F said:
The family still own the same modest house and Richard Erle-Drax, a direct descendant of John, is currently the MP for South Dorset. These old families know how to survive and prosper.HurstLlama said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat. (EDIT - although I now see it wasn't until 1880 that he actually lost the seat. Ruins the punchline. Still a classic though.)ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
Finally, the rationale behind Poundbury becomes clear. There's really a rocket hiding beneath the Whistling Witch ...0 -
Two weeks to save the Labour party. But they look doomed.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
0 -
I take the default position that mockery, satire and humour are important in restraining the excessive power of states, governments, organizations and individuals.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, good post. Humour's important for mocking extremism (which is why the increasing censorship around taking the piss of Islam is so serious. A priest being on trial for being mean about another religion is bloody daft, not to mention a cartoon exhibition being cancelled. We're at risk of letting humourless murderers dictate the terms of freedom of speech).
0 -
Re the Legion d'Honneur ceremony, kudos to the French and above all to all those who tackled the gunman. There are 2 others who also tackled him, beyond the 4 we know about. Incredibly brave, all of them.
I rather like the fact that they're dressed as tourists: it highlights the fact that ordinary people fought back.
I hope the British Ambassador to France made an appearance. One of the men was British after all.0 -
30 seems a bit optimistic on your scenario. OJ would be a killer never mind his leftier nephew!SeanT said:
Yes. It is quite easy to see a trajectory which takes Labour from electing Corbyn to the total disappearance of the party as a serious electoral force: because Corbyn will carefully preserve the system that installed him, the leftist activists will then SWARM into the party, sensible Labourites will finally leave in despair, the next leader of Labour after Corbyn will be Owen Jones's leftier nephew, and in the famous election of 2025 Labour will be reduced to 30 MPs.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
All this is very possible of the Jezbollah win the day. Alternatively, Labour might be entering a period of "good chaos" if we are to believe Doctor Palmer.0 -
Why would they want to remain? Well, how about nearly £70k a year plus expenses, no compulsory hours of work, no performance criteria, a warm room, cheap booze and a taxpayer funded pad in London? Why would anyone want to leave?JosiasJessop said:
Will they be there to grow into the roles? If you were an up and coming Blairite MP, having been elected in 2010 or 2015, and facing a Labour Party led by Corbyn, his hanger-ons and the unions, why would you want to remain?ThreeQuidder said:
Corbyn's about to win, so the answer to this has to be "yes".JosiasJessop said:
Strangely, they stand a good chance of electing one of the men most guilty for that disastrous infighting as deputy leader.ThreeQuidder said:
Absolutely agreed. The TB-GB war wiped out a whole generation of Labour talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What are the main reasons in your view for the terrible choice of candidates. My view is it stems from the malign influence of Brown on rivals from his generation.bigjohnowls said:
Are Labour deliberately trying to destroy themselves?
Might not be the worst thing for Labour, a pause to allow a new generation to gain experience grow into the roles. Wouldn't be good for the country though.
The despicable rhetoric thrown against Kendall - who has been a loyal Labour MP - by people supporting a massively disloyal MP is an indication of what will happen after Corbyn wins. Why would they want to remain given this rhetoric, especially when it is likely that Corbyn and the unions will just select more hard-left candidates.
Of all the options in my list below, a split in the Labour party is looking the most likely. Corbyn wasn't loyal to the party, but he will demand loyalty from it.0 -
*Sucks air in through teeth* Not PC! It's "green" sheep now, as in "Baa Baa Green Sheep".Sean_F said:Whatever the exact truth of the matter, he was clearly the black sheep of the family.
Even nursery rhymes must move with the times.
Old McDonald had a farm,
E-I-E-I-O,
Corbyn nationalized the farm,
E-I-E-I-O . . . .0 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11820156/Jeremy-Corbyn-will-sack-Bank-of-England-governor-if-they-refuse-to-print-free-money.html
Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
Classy.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.0 -
Indeed. Very lazy big state thinking from Labourites who dismiss the possibility...Sean_F said:
The Liberals went from c.260 MPs in 1914 to 40 in 1924. Parties can collapse, and once you go beyond a certain point, FPTP exaggerates that collapse, and makes it almost impossible to recover.SeanT said:
Yes. It is quite easy to see a trajectory which takes Labour from electing Corbyn to the total disappearance of the party as a serious electoral force: because Corbyn will carefully preserve the system that installed him, the leftist activists will then SWARM into the party, sensible Labourites will finally leave in despair, the next leader of Labour after Corbyn will be Owen Jones's leftier nephew, and in the famous election of 2025 Labour will be reduced to 30 MPs.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
All this is very possible of the Jezbollah win the day. Alternatively, Labour might be entering a period of "good chaos" if we are to believe Doctor Palmer.
Canada affords a good example of once-powerful parties (eg Union Nationale, Social Credit, Progressive Conservatives, Parti Quebecois) being swept away for good.0 -
IDS had at least served on the front bench. Corbyn is a far more eccentric choice for party leader.SeanT said:
Yes. The potential election of Corbyn is the nearest that Labour or the Tory party have come to lethal self harm in my lifetime. Its much much worse than Tories electing IDS. At least IDS was ideologically in tune with his MPs, even if he was clearly unelectable in the UK as a whole.Sean_F said:
The Liberals went from c.260 MPs in 1914 to 40 in 1924. Parties can collapse, and once you go beyond a certain point, FPTP exaggerates that collapse, and makes it almost impossible to recover.SeanT said:
s.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.
All this is very possible of the Jezbollah win the day. Alternatively, Labour might be entering a period of "good chaos" if we are to believe Doctor Palmer.
Canada affords a good example of once-powerful parties (eg Union Nationale, Social Credit, Progressive Conservatives, Parti Quebecois) being swept away for good.
Corbyn is loathed, reviled and derided by many of his fellow MPs. Most of them reject his policies outright.
What's going to happen when the Shadow Cabinet meets and Corbyn says Labour will quit NATO, abolish Trident?
I cannot see anything but hideous splits, visible and invisible. And thus the party might disintegrate.0 -
If they are ambitious - and many MPs are not content to stay on the back benches - then there will be no progress for them under a Corbyn party. At least, unless they do a Palmeresque damescene conversion, which holds its own dangers.HurstLlama said:
Why would they want to remain? Well, how about nearly £70k a year plus expenses, no compulsory hours of work, no performance criteria, a warm room, cheap booze and a taxpayer funded pad in London? Why would anyone want to leave?JosiasJessop said:
Will they be there to grow into the roles? If you were an up and coming Blairite MP, having been elected in 2010 or 2015, and facing a Labour Party led by Corbyn, his hanger-ons and the unions, why would you want to remain?ThreeQuidder said:
Corbyn's about to win, so the answer to this has to be "yes".JosiasJessop said:
Strangely, they stand a good chance of electing one of the men most guilty for that disastrous infighting as deputy leader.ThreeQuidder said:
Absolutely agreed. The TB-GB war wiped out a whole generation of Labour talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What are the main reasons in your view for the terrible choice of candidates. My view is it stems from the malign influence of Brown on rivals from his generation.bigjohnowls said:
Are Labour deliberately trying to destroy themselves?
Might not be the worst thing for Labour, a pause to allow a new generation to gain experience grow into the roles. Wouldn't be good for the country though.
The despicable rhetoric thrown against Kendall - who has been a loyal Labour MP - by people supporting a massively disloyal MP is an indication of what will happen after Corbyn wins. Why would they want to remain given this rhetoric, especially when it is likely that Corbyn and the unions will just select more hard-left candidates.
Of all the options in my list below, a split in the Labour party is looking the most likely. Corbyn wasn't loyal to the party, but he will demand loyalty from it.
The possibility of the Labour party splitting once more is increasing. They'd remain as MPs, but in a separate party. It'll be the SDP all over again. Or join the Lib Dems.0 -
They are about to commit the most catastrophic and damaging unforced political error in British Politics since Charles I stormed the House of Commons to pursue his ornithological specimens in 1642. It will likely have the same result, although I hope that any resulting civil war can be confined to the Labour Party.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Two weeks to save the Labour party. But they look doomed.david_herdson said:
And against which, if Corbyn wins, that system is almost certain to be retained both for the philosophical reasons it was introduced and because of the hard politics that it'll be more likely to keep Corbyn in place, give his activist supporters more power and deliver a successor out of the same mould.Philip_Thompson said:
The potential silver lining in this for Labour is if somehow either Burnham or Cooper manage to win against the odds and then learning the lessons of this time reform the voting system to a plain and simple "one member one vote" system.Richard_Nabavi said:Mike is of course right: whatever the outcome, the damage to Labour of this farce is going to be an immense. Whilst I sympathise with Jonathan finding solace in a comparison with the LibDems, and to a lesser extent with Nick P trying to convince himself that the undoubted national interest in this comedy show is somehow a good sign for Labour, the truth is that they have made themselves a laughing-stock. They are even managing to make the Ed Miliband years look like a golden age.
Nor will it end when the result is announced. There is no good way out of this mess for Labour for at least a period of years. The idea of Jeremy Corbyn, of all people, becoming Labour's candidate for the office of Prime Minister is the stuff of political satire, not reality. Or at least it should be.
Whether he is selected or not, the party will be in chaos for years.0 -
Whilst Labour disintegrating is a credible, albeit outside, possibility, it's worth noting much the same was said about the Conservatives in 2007 when Labour had a 10 point lead, a snap election was on the cards and a fourth Labour term seemed eminently possible.0
-
Markets looking a bit dicey this morning. As one tweet I just read put it
One Direction splitting up is shocking news but I still think the Shanghai Composite is over reacting to it.
44bn quid wiped off in the last two hours, did they suddenly notice Corbyn might be leader of her majesty's opposition ?
0 -
Labour are jolly lucky that the LibDems got there first in the race to implode. The main thing which mitigates against a Labour collapse is the lack of an obvious alternative on the centre-left.
UKIP, whilst it will benefit from Labour travails, doesn't seem a good enough fit to be a replacement - it's not going to attract disgruntled Blairites and left-of-centre social liberals such as Southam of this parish.0 -
To be fair the Conservatives were not about to elect Bill Cash's less sensible half brother as their leader.Morris_Dancer said:Whilst Labour disintegrating is a credible, albeit outside, possibility, it's worth noting much the same was said about the Conservatives in 2007 when Labour had a 10 point lead, a snap election was on the cards and a fourth Labour term seemed eminently possible.
0 -
Leaving aside what I think is an excessively optimistic assessment of how a Corbyn-led party would turn out, can I follow up on your comment that "if they ['things' - ?] seem to go badly then a challenge will inevitably follow next year"?NickPalmer said:It's chaotic in both good and bad senses - compare the thread header with Jonathan's comment. I've never known a leadership election to attract such interest - people debate it at my poker game (and believe me, it's hard to get them off the subject of Arsenal and Formula 1), at bus stops, in my apolitical office. Actual membership (not just the £3ers) is up by about 40%, and the new people mostly appear to be enthusiasts rather than fanatics. I do agree it's going on too long - opening the ballot papers about now would be sensible, not in 3 weeks. And the MPs nattering about an early challenge will find themselves on their own - people have had enough of it for now.
Some of the other comments are projected wish-fulfilment. A mass purge of members either way isn't going to happen. If Corbyn loses by a tiny margin there will be a lot of grumbling about the vetting, but otherwise members will shrug it off. If Corbyn wins, he'll surprise the wider public by mildness and inclusiveness in his early decisions. Apart from a few hotheads the PLP will largely simply wait and see - if things seem to go well for the party, mostly they'll say fine, this is better than we thought; if they seem to go badly then a challenge will inevitably follow next year. The tricky thing will be if they go sort of OK - e.g. we win London and make a bit of progress in Scotland but don't do well in the locals.
How and who? A formal challenge to a sitting leader requires (IIUIC), a third of MPs to openly nominate a stated candidate. That's a barrier that's so high as to be unreachable except perhaps to a clearly failed leader post-election, which Corbyn isn't. In any case, even if the nominations could be found, what's to stop Corbyn winning again?
Alternatively, there's informal 'pressure': resignations, refusal to serve, off-the-record briefings and so on. But would such pressure be enough to someone who has never played by the rules of front-bench politics? Would the critics not be seen as being more at blame than the leadership?
And then there's the 'who'? You'd need a replacement good enough to make the disruption worth it. Even if there's not a direct challenge, the PLP would still need to have a decent idea as to who they'd have afterwards. This generation (Burnham, Cooper etc), next one (Jarvis etc) or last one (Johnson, Harman)? And the risk of getting the wrong result is a significant inhibitor; it's why John Major survived through until 1997.
That's not to say it couldn't be done or that Corbyn wouldn't jump; just that I think it's assuming too much to state that there'd be a challenge, never mind a change, if Labour has a bad May 2016.0 -
This is very different though, isn't it?Morris_Dancer said:Whilst Labour disintegrating is a credible, albeit outside, possibility, it's worth noting much the same was said about the Conservatives in 2007 when Labour had a 10 point lead, a snap election was on the cards and a fourth Labour term seemed eminently possible.
The Conservatives have a long and illustrious history of being a very broad tent with a large range of views, loosely held together. This was true even in Thatcher's day with the wets.
In comparison Labour has had a much stronger internal ideology that generally holds together - witness the way that Brown or Miliband were not usurped, or the way Nick Palmer has dramatically changed his views. Until that is, something snaps and the SDP is formed.
We're heading towards that territory now. It's not a done deal, but the more Blairites in the party are insulted and sidelined by the Corbynites, the more likely it will be.0 -
When we inevitably have another terrorist attack that kills a whole load of Britons I wonder if Labour leader Corbyn will get asked "what are the good bits of ISIS"?SeanT said:What's going to happen when the Shadow Cabinet meets and Corbyn says Labour will quit NATO, abolish Trident?
0 -
That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.Richard_Nabavi said:Labour are jolly lucky that the LibDems got there first in the race to implode. The main thing which mitigates against a Labour collapse is the lack of an obvious alternative on the centre-left.
UKIP, whilst it will benefit from Labour travails, doesn't seem a good enough fit to be a replacement - it's not going to attract disgruntled Blairites and left-of-centre social liberals such as Southam of this parish.
The Tories can win a majority when UKIP poll 13%, whodathunkit0 -
Don't you know? It'll be the Conservative's fault, along with the US. Thatcher will probably get an honourable mention as well.glw said:
When we inevitably have another terrorist attack that kills a whole load of Britons I wonder if Labour leader Corbyn will get asked "what are the good bits of ISIS"?SeanT said:What's going to happen when the Shadow Cabinet meets and Corbyn says Labour will quit NATO, abolish Trident?
0 -
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
0 -
0
-
''The Tories can win a majority when UKIP poll 13%, whodathunkit''
You'd have thought seats in Yorkshire and the North East might be vulnerable to UKIP if Jezza wins, but when push comes to shove people there still vote for the reds.0 -
Jog on loser , we are bored to tears.Scott_P said:
Calm down dear.malcolmg said:Only one fixated cretinous halfwitted dullard
The Zoomer line on here yesterday was that nobody in Scotland was talking about the price of oil.
Today the front page of the Daily Zoomer, sorry, the Nat onal, is dedicated to the price of oil.
Don't blame me when Zoomer central makes you and your pals look like chumps.0 -
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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Lib Dems have more faces than a town clockTCPoliticalBetting said:Party that effectively deselected a female MSP ahead of 2016 elections, gets stuck into builders.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/when-sal-brinton-pioneered-considerate-behaviour-contracts-for-builders-47235.html0 -
It seems obvious to me that if Labour vacates the centre ground then the Tories (if they are smart) will likely tack left a bit and pinch some of the sensible centre-left ideas. If they can find a leader with wider appeal as well then they will have a strong hand for 2020.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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This really couldn't be any worse. Or more grimly amusing.
Is there any stereotype that the Comrade Corbyn Campaign hasn't fulfilled as yet?
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
0 -
If they are ambitious then their ambitions for office may be delayed in their realisation. However, there is plenty of space in the PLP for those that disagree with the leadership, look at Corbyn, and the wheel might turn again. But if they leave then the experience of the SDP suggests that their career in politics will be short. Better, surely, to keep taking the cash and the freebies, it is not as if they actually have to work for them.JosiasJessop said:
If they are ambitious - and many MPs are not content to stay on the back benches - then there will be no progress for them under a Corbyn party. At least, unless they do a Palmeresque damescene conversion, which holds its own dangers.
The possibility of the Labour party splitting once more is increasing. They'd remain as MPs, but in a separate party. It'll be the SDP all over again. Or join the Lib Dems.0 -
It was said rather more under IDS's leadership, when the party really was at risk. Fortunately for the Blues, the Lib Dems were at that point diving to the left of Labour and leaving a the Tories unmolested at a strategic level, whatever local targets there might have been. A combination of a Cleggite Lib Dem party and the kind of UKIP surge seen over the last three years would have been very hard to deal with.Morris_Dancer said:Whilst Labour disintegrating is a credible, albeit outside, possibility, it's worth noting much the same was said about the Conservatives in 2007 when Labour had a 10 point lead, a snap election was on the cards and a fourth Labour term seemed eminently possible.
By contrast, the summer of 2007 was just a silly honeymoon period that would always have come to an end even if Brown had won an election.
Labour is now somewhat fortunate, as RichardN has noted, to be facing such a weak Lib Dem party. However, four or five years can be a long time and Labour's right flank is weak, as is its socially conservative one.
Fact is that all the major parties are two disasters from annihilation. The Lib Dems have already had one and Labour might be about to inflict another on itself.0 -
Yorkshire isn't homogeneous. North Yorkshire is staunchly Tory, West and East Yorkshire has quite a few marginals that the Tories won, South Yorkshire could be fascinating.taffys said:''The Tories can win a majority when UKIP poll 13%, whodathunkit''
You'd have thought seats in Yorkshire and the North East might be vulnerable to UKIP if Jezza wins, but when push comes to shove people there still vote for the reds.
The Kipper rampers thought they'd have a chance winning a few in 2015, but missed spectacularly in supposedly avourable circumstances.
Corbyn as leader, and no Nick Clegg and the Tories could take Sheffield Hallam.
Oh to live in a Tory seat again.0 -
I don't buy it most of those sort of people, and quite a lot of the LDs around here are running around saying how right-wing Cameron is, complete balls of course, but if that is their perception, we wont get their vote. Labour is more likely to split with the Blairites drifting toward the LDs, the Old Labour types joining the kippers, and the rest sitting on their hands. In the same way in 1997 the metropolitan liberal Tories voted for Blair and quite a lot of the rest sat on their hands.Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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They can remain and wait for their deselection to happen ahead of 2020. They can jump into the unknown but remember what happened to the SDP. Or they can pray for something to stop Corbyn taking over in 2.5 weeks.HurstLlama said:
Why would they want to remain? Well, how about nearly £70k a year plus expenses, no compulsory hours of work, no performance criteria, a warm room, cheap booze and a taxpayer funded pad in London? Why would anyone want to leave?JosiasJessop said:
Will they be there to grow into the roles? If you were an up and coming Blairite MP, having been elected in 2010 or 2015, and facing a Labour Party led by Corbyn, his hanger-ons and the unions, why would you want to remain?ThreeQuidder said:
Corbyn's about to win, so the answer to this has to be "yes".JosiasJessop said:
Strangely, they stand a good chance of electing one of the men most guilty for that disastrous infighting as deputy leader.ThreeQuidder said:
Absolutely agreed. The TB-GB war wiped out a whole generation of Labour talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What are the main reasons in your view for the terrible choice of candidates. My view is it stems from the malign influence of Brown on rivals from his generation.bigjohnowls said:
Are Labour deliberately trying to destroy themselves?
Might not be the worst thing for Labour, a pause to allow a new generation to gain experience grow into the roles. Wouldn't be good for the country though.
The despicable rhetoric thrown against Kendall - who has been a loyal Labour MP - by people supporting a massively disloyal MP is an indication of what will happen after Corbyn wins. Why would they want to remain given this rhetoric, especially when it is likely that Corbyn and the unions will just select more hard-left candidates.
Of all the options in my list below, a split in the Labour party is looking the most likely. Corbyn wasn't loyal to the party, but he will demand loyalty from it.
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Inappropriate analogy as it may be it's a bit like saying oppressed minorities will somehow rise up against brutal dictators (hold on, perhaps not too inappropriate). Usually we more hope that it will happen than provide any material help for it to happen.david_herdson said:
Leaving aside what I think is an excessively optimistic assessment of how a Corbyn-led party would turn out, can I follow up on your comment that "if they ['things' - ?] seem to go badly then a challenge will inevitably follow next year"?NickPalmer said:It's chaotic in both good and bad senses - compare the thread header with Jonathan's comment. I've never known a leadership election to attract such interest - people debate it at my poker game (and believe me, itland but don't do well in the locals.
How and who? A formal challenge to a sitting leader requires (IIUIC), a third of MPs to openly nominate a stated candidate. That's a barrier that's so high as to be unreachable except perhaps to a clearly failed leader post-election, which Corbyn isn't. In any case, even if the nominations could be found, what's to stop Corbyn winning again?
Alternatively, there's informal 'pressure': resignations, refusal to serve, off-the-record briefings and so on. But would such pressure be enough to someone who has never played by the rules of front-bench politics? Would the critics not be seen as being more at blame than the leadership?
And then there's the 'who'? You'd need a replacement good enough to make the disruption worth it. Even if there's not a direct challenge, the PLP would still need to have a decent idea as to who they'd have afterwards. This generation (Burnham, Cooper etc), next one (Jarvis etc) or last one (Johnson, Harman)? And the risk of getting the wrong result is a significant inhibitor; it's why John Major survived through until 1997.
That's not to say it couldn't be done or that Corbyn wouldn't jump; just that I think it's assuming too much to state that there'd be a challenge, never mind a change, if Labour has a bad May 2016.
It's wishful thinking in Lab's case. There is a leadership election right now. Everyone can foresee the implications of anyone winning or not winning and therefore should act on that belief.
To say that people will behave differently at some point in the future when they haven't even acted or rather, have free will to act today is wishful thinking.0 -
@TheScreamingEagles
The 1/20 shot you tipped yesterday for a quick 5% ROI.. @AntiFrank likes the other side at 8s, why don't you offer him 12s so you're both happy?
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Lord David Owen, Baron Jenkins of Hillhead, Baron Rodgers of Hillbank and Baroness Williams of Crosby have all done quite well for themselves.HurstLlama said:
If they are ambitious then their ambitions for office may be delayed in their realisation. However, there is plenty of space in the PLP for those that disagree with the leadership, look at Corbyn, and the wheel might turn again. But if they leave then the experience of the SDP suggests that their career in politics will be short. Better, surely, to keep taking the cash and the freebies, it is not as if they actually have to work for them.JosiasJessop said:
If they are ambitious - and many MPs are not content to stay on the back benches - then there will be no progress for them under a Corbyn party. At least, unless they do a Palmeresque damescene conversion, which holds its own dangers.
The possibility of the Labour party splitting once more is increasing. They'd remain as MPs, but in a separate party. It'll be the SDP all over again. Or join the Lib Dems.
And there must be significant doubt a Corbynite PLP will have plenty of space for those that disagree with his leadership. Just look at what's already happening.0 -
As someone who did some canvassing it was the Lib Dems that won the election for the Tories.Indigo said:
I don't buy it most of those sort of people, and quite a lot of the LDs around here are running around saying how right-wing Cameron is, complete balls of course, but if that is their perception, we wont get their vote. Labour is more likely to split with the Blairites drifting toward the LDs, the Old Labour types joining the kippers, and the rest sitting on their hands. In the same way in 1997 the metropolitan liberal Tories voted for Blair and quite a lot of the rest sat on their hands.Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
Going into coalition with the Lib Dems was the final stage of the detoxification strategy for Dave and the Tories.
If Labour keep on putting up duffers as leaders, and the Tories occupy the centre-right ground, then all things being equal, the Tories should do well.
The two (or technically four) key stats from the election that are truly astonishing.
UKIP up 9.5% and the Tories up 0.8%
Lib Dems down 15.2% and Labour only up by 1.5%
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Plato said:
This really couldn't be any worse. Or more grimly amusing.
Is there any stereotype that the Comrade Corbyn Campaign hasn't fulfilled as yet?
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
Actually, I agree with him on the main point. Irrespective of how nutty a government's policy is, if it has been through a proper democratic process then officials should - after due warnings - implement it.0 -
Room for those who disagree with Corbyn? You need to re-read the 1970s and early 1980s and the activities within the CLPs to deselect sitting MPs.HurstLlama said:
If they are ambitious then their ambitions for office may be delayed in their realisation. However, there is plenty of space in the PLP for those that disagree with the leadership, look at Corbyn, and the wheel might turn again. But if they leave then the experience of the SDP suggests that their career in politics will be short. Better, surely, to keep taking the cash and the freebies, it is not as if they actually have to work for them.JosiasJessop said:
If they are ambitious - and many MPs are not content to stay on the back benches - then there will be no progress for them under a Corbyn party. At least, unless they do a Palmeresque damescene conversion, which holds its own dangers.
The possibility of the Labour party splitting once more is increasing. They'd remain as MPs, but in a separate party. It'll be the SDP all over again. Or join the Lib Dems.
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A politician who said what he meant, no mealy mouthed political correctness for him.logical_song said:
For some reason, this impassioned appeal was not successful and the Liberal challenger took the seat.ydoethur said:
John Erle-Drax, Conservative MP for the 'pocket borough' of Wareham in the 1860s. Hearken unto his famous election address, not in any way cheapened by a sense of humour or irony, in 1874 after voting had been made secret for the first time:ReggieCide said:One issue that really hasn't had the attention that I think it deserves is, what part of anyone's perception of a democratic process is being able to buy a vote (just a vote). Obviously Ed's but who else?
"I understand that some evil-disposed person has been circulating a report that I wish my tenants, and other persons dependent upon me, to vote according to their conscience. This is a dastardly lie, calculated to injure me. I have no wish of the sort. I wish, and intend, that these people should vote for me."
I wonder what happened to his tenants and workers.
South Dorset still has a Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax aka Richard Drax as a sitting MP. It appears that feudalism hasn't quite ended.
Re thread, looks as if enough of the electorate had doubts about Labour's competence in May, only to see them confirmed in August. Blair, Mandleson & Campbell must wonder what the hell has happened to the party in the course of 7 years. Labour were once a party of political titans in 1945 - Attlee, Bevin et al, now they are just a bunch of tits.0 -
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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Labour MPs are.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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The final decision is made by the membership.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
After a fraught and divisive EU referendum, anything is possible.
Plus we elected IDS0 -
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
Murphy is a Grade A moron. Such a move - people's QE - is unlawful. As well as being the quickest way to trash a currency.
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They put IDS in the final 2 in 2001matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
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Agreed. But MPs narrow the names. For all the complaints about £3 entryists, it's halfwitted MPs who were the problem.TheScreamingEagles said:
The final decision is made by the membership.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
After a fraught and divisive EU referendum, anything is possible.
Plus we elected IDS0 -
Agreed. But MPs narrow the names. For all the complaints about £3 entryists, it's halfwitted MPs who were the problem.TheScreamingEagles said:
The final decision is made by the membership.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
After a fraught and divisive EU referendum, anything is possible.
Plus we elected IDS0 -
What a knob.
An MP has said she didn't know whether to "laugh or cry" at a sexist letter that told her off for, basically, appearing on television while having breasts.
Labour's Alison McGovern, Shadow City Minister, received the letter castigating her for "so obviously" showing her cleavage when she appeared on Channel 4 News in June, opposite Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, to discuss George Osborne's proposed bill obliging governments to run a surplus on their budgets while the economy was booming.
http://huff.to/1LsvAgQ0 -
We should copy the Labour system and allow anyone who pays their £3k to have a vote.TheScreamingEagles said:
The final decision is made by the membership.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
After a fraught and divisive EU referendum, anything is possible.
Plus we elected IDS0 -
Was there supposed to be a Yougov in the Sunday Times regarding the Lab leadership or some such ?0
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Plato said:
This really couldn't be any worse. Or more grimly amusing.
Is there any stereotype that the Comrade Corbyn Campaign hasn't fulfilled as yet?
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
The Guardian in May 2020 following the election of Jeremy Corbyn as PM.
"CORRECTION: In yesterdays newspaper we incorrectly reported that the new PM had asked the Governor of the Bank of England for more liquidity.
This should have read: 'The new PM had asked for the Governor of the Bank of England to be liquidated'."0 -
I was expecting one, yet again I was left disappointed on a Saturday night.Pulpstar said:Was there supposed to be a Yougov in the Sunday Times regarding the Lab leadership or some such ?
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"What a knob"TheScreamingEagles said:What a knob.
An MP has said she didn't know whether to "laugh or cry" at a sexist letter that told her off for, basically, appearing on television while having breasts.
Labour's Alison McGovern, Shadow City Minister, received the letter castigating her for "so obviously" showing her cleavage when she appeared on Channel 4 News in June, opposite Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, to discuss George Osborne's proposed bill obliging governments to run a surplus on their budgets while the economy was booming.
http://huff.to/1LsvAgQ
Missed that, I was looking at the tits0 -
Murphy is a Grade A moron. Such a move - people's QE - is unlawful. As well as being the quickest way to trash a currency.Cyclefree said:
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
If Corbyn really were to implement such a policy, it wouldn't just be the Bank Governor who would be on the next plane out of Britain.
There would be queues at Heathrow...
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Clearly no knob was visible ....TheScreamingEagles said:What a knob.
An MP has said she didn't know whether to "laugh or cry" at a sexist letter that told her off for, basically, appearing on television while having breasts.
Labour's Alison McGovern, Shadow City Minister, received the letter castigating her for "so obviously" showing her cleavage when she appeared on Channel 4 News in June, opposite Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, to discuss George Osborne's proposed bill obliging governments to run a surplus on their budgets while the economy was booming.
http://huff.to/1LsvAgQ
OTOH ....
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I'd be in charge of vetting all members.Tissue_Price said:
We should copy the Labour system and allow anyone who pays their £3k to have a vote.TheScreamingEagles said:
The final decision is made by the membership.matt said:
I don't think Conservative MPs are that dim.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm having nightmares that we'll elect Philip Holloborne or Liam FoxRichard_Nabavi said:
Precisely.TheScreamingEagles said:That's why Dave's successor has to be a One Nation Tory, to appeal to all those disgruntled Blairites and left of centre social liberals.
After a fraught and divisive EU referendum, anything is possible.
Plus we elected IDS
Only those who are One Nation, socially liberal Tories would be eligible to vote.0 -
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
I heard him on R4 this morning.
He is a buffoon of the first order - and any challenge is met with bluster - it says a lot about Corbyn that Corbyn listens to him.....0 -
Murphy is a Grade A moron. Such a move - people's QE - is unlawful. As well as being the quickest way to trash a currency.Cyclefree said:
Classy.Indigo said:Richard Murphy, who is seen as the architect of Mr Corbyn's economic agenda, the so-called 'Corbynomics', warned that there was "no such thing" as an independent Bank of England.
He said that if Mr Corbyn's government wanted to use the cheap money from the Bank any governor who refused to carry out the plan for "people's quantitative easing" should be "on the next plane" out of Britain.
If Corbyn was in a position to introduce 'people's QE' then he would be in a position to make it lawful. It would, of course, be economically insane but that's never stopped governments the world over.0 -
Bugger, bugger, bugger, looks like we're not getting another Indyref until after 2020
A second independence referendum should not be held before 2020, warn senior SNP sources, because there is still too much uncertainty that the public would support Scotland leaving the United Kingdom
http://bit.ly/1NP2RmI0
