politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Four LAB defences and one LD one in tonight’s local by-elec

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 6m6 minutes ago
The first post-Welfare Bill nominations meetings seem to be going fairly brutally for Burnham, and pretty well for Cooper and Corbyn.

CLP nominations
Corbyn - 82
Burnham - 75
Cooper - 71
Kendall - 12

Eric Joyce has his say on Labour's move left:

http://ericjoyce.co.uk/2015/07/the-inexorable-laboursnp-deal/

Danny565 said:

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 6m6 minutes ago
The first post-Welfare Bill nominations meetings seem to be going fairly brutally for Burnham, and pretty well for Cooper and Corbyn.

CLP nominations
Corbyn - 82
Burnham - 75
Cooper - 71
Kendall - 12

What affect if any do CLP nominations have on the outcome? Given its one member one vote?

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

He doesn't live with it.

Well said.

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

"England has no eternal friends, England has no perpetual enemies, England has only eternal and perpetual interests."
- Palmerston.

An eternal truth.

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

He doesn't live with it.

I'm pretty sure the American government has had to interact with the EU at least once.... IMO he can say what he wants on the matter. It's not as if we have to do what he tells us.

How much does he contribute to the EU? How much has he just contributed to the Greek bailout? After all like us the USA is not part of the deranged Eurozone, yet we had to contribute.

Nothing, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to him not being allowed to express opinions on the matter?

JEO said:

DaemonBarber said:

As the de facto leader of the free world, surely Obama can say what he likes?

Of course he can, but it ranks of hypocrisy. The USA is not even willing to compromise its sovereignty for the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. They would never allow the level of sovereignty infringement the EU has over us.

He is only interested in what is best for the USA. Everything he says should be viewed through that prism. No sure if that counts as hypocrisy.

PPP US 2016 General Election

Trump – 19% (-)
Walker – 17% (18)
Bush – 12% (11)
Carson – 10% (12)
Rubio – 10% (13)
Huckabee – 8% (12)
Cruz – 4% (10)
Fiorina – 4% (-)
Paul – 4% (9)
Christie – 3% (5)
Kasich
– 3% (-)
Jindal – 1% (-)
Perry – 1% (2)
Santorum – 1% (-)
Gilmore – 0% (-)
Graham – 0% (-)
Pataki – 0% (-)
Undecided – 2% (7)


General Election Matchups

Clinton – 46%
Bush – 41%

Clinton – 47%
Carson – 39%

Clinton – 48%
Cruz – 40%

Clinton – 47%
Fiorina – 37%

Clinton – 46%
Huckabee – 40%

Clinton – 45%
Paul – 42%

Clinton – 46%
Rubio – 41%

Clinton – 50%
Trump – 37%

Clinton – 46%
Walker – 41%

Sanders- 37%
Bush 44%

Sanders 36%
Rubio 41%

Sanders 39%
Walker 40%

Sanders 47%
Trump 37%
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/07/trump-still-leads-gop-field-but-descent-may-be-beginning.html#more

So Yvette has overtaken Andy in CLP nominations.

Not surprising, fewer than half his supporters think he's a PM.

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

He doesn't live with it.

I'm pretty sure the American government has had to interact with the EU at least once.... IMO he can say what he wants on the matter. It's not as if we have to do what he tells us.

How much does he contribute to the EU? How much has he just contributed to the Greek bailout? After all like us the USA is not part of the deranged Eurozone, yet we had to contribute.

Nothing, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to him not being allowed to express opinions on the matter?

Anyone can comment, doesn't matter if you are a beggar in Athens or the President of the USA, but much better to do it if you do not have a vested interest.

If you comment on something, most often than not you have a vested interest.

Danny565 said:

Moses_ said:

Danny565 said:

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 6m6 minutes ago
The first post-Welfare Bill nominations meetings seem to be going fairly brutally for Burnham, and pretty well for Cooper and Corbyn.

CLP nominations
Corbyn - 82
Burnham - 75
Cooper - 71
Kendall - 12

What affect if any do CLP nominations have on the outcome? Given its one member one vote?

They don't have any direct effect, but they are arguably an indicator of how the votes will go.

Thanks

Donald Trump says the chances that he will launch a third-party White House run will “absolutely” increase if the Republican National Committee is unfair to him during the 2016 primary season.

“The RNC has not been supportive. They were always supportive when I was a contributor. I was their fair-haired boy,” the Business mogul told The Hill in a 40-minute interview from his Manhattan office at Trump Tower on Wednesday. “The RNC has been, I think, very foolish.”

Pressed on whether he would run as a third-party candidate if he fails to clinch the GOP nomination, Trump said that “so many people want me to, if I don’t WIN.”
“I’ll have to see how I’m being treated by the Republicans,” Trump said. “Absolutely, if they’re not fair, that would be a factor.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/248910-exclusive-trump-threatens-third-party-run

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

He's not friendly when it suits him, ask British Petroleum

Perhaps we should listen to that nice Mr Putin, who is very anti EU; having our interests at heart, I am sure.

By your logic...
Mr Putin is against the EU, therefore we must be pro-EU.
but also...
Mr Putin is against ISIS, therefore we must be pro-ISIS.

Interesting programme on BBC1 now on Russia, including David Cameron as one of the bad guys in a Putin card game

The Americans are our friends and pat us on the head as long we as do what they want, and unfortunately we have pandered to that and encouraged their bullying streak.

TheScreamingEagles said:

So Yvette has overtaken Andy in CLP nominations.

Not surprising, fewer than half his supporters think he's a PM.

Yet Burnham was the only Labour leadership contendor in today's Mori poll who did not have a negative rating on the question of whether they could be a future PM. CLP nominations are anyway not the determinant, the determinant is members, supporters and affiliates and with them yougov has showed it is Burnham, not Cooper, who ends up in the final round with Corbyn. In any case, even on tonight's figures Burnham is still ahead of Cooper on CLP nominations

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

So Yvette has overtaken Andy in CLP nominations.

Not surprising, fewer than half his supporters think he's a PM.

Yet Burnham was the only Labour leadership contendor in today's Mori poll who did not have a negative rating on the question of whether they could be a future PM. CLP nominations are anyway not the determinant, the determinant is members, supporters and affiliates and with them yougov has showed it is Burnham, not Cooper, who ends up in the final round with Burnham

I get the feeling Andy Burnham could do a dump in your living room, and you'd be telling us it was a work of art by a genius

David Owen on Newsnight talking about the possibility of an SDP-style split.

FPT

dr_spyn said:

Flightpathl said:

Danny565 said:

Freggles said:

Pulpstar said:

Freggles said:

The Greens on 8%? For crying out loud

Corbyn will sort that out.

I am thinking of voting
Kendall
Cooper
Corbyn
Burnham

On the basis that Burnham would not be enough of a disaster to trigger a coup, similarly to how Ed had YouGov leads that helped him hang in there but ultimately hurt the party

But, according to the public polls cited in the header by OGH, Kendall would be even more unelectable than Corbyn.

All the new entrants spending £3 in the hope of destabilizing Labour should vote for Kendall and then as on bonfire night - retire immediately

Noticed some Greens asking if they could join Labour to vote for Corbyn.


Sad to report there is a #greens4corbyn tag and some of the hard left greens are in it.

Yep, just persuaded a Green member (long-standing one, since the 80s) to send her text off. She's just done it. Interestingly she says she'll stay with the Labour party if Corbyn actually wins: it wouldn't surprise me if he could pick off a chunk of the Green activist base, not just their voters. I know a couple of Greens who are making at least a temporary defection for the purpose of the leadership vote.

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

He's not friendly when it suits him, ask British Petroleum

Perhaps we should listen to that nice Mr Putin, who is very anti EU; having our interests at heart, I am sure.

Ridiculous comment, to be expected from a manic Europhile.

Why should we take notice of any of them?

Because unless we want splendid Corbyite isolation we may need friends and trading partners in the world.

As a matter of interest, which foreign politicians apart from Putin want the break up of the EU?

So the Americans or indeed the rest of Europe would not trade with us if we left the EU?

I expect they would. Why do you think the Americans favour us staying in the EU rather than revive the British Empire?

Is that we would do then?

"Commonwealth Plus"

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

So Yvette has overtaken Andy in CLP nominations.

Not surprising, fewer than half his supporters think he's a PM.

Yet Burnham was the only Labour leadership contendor in today's Mori poll who did not have a negative rating on the question of whether they could be a future PM. CLP nominations are anyway not the determinant, the determinant is members, supporters and affiliates and with them yougov has showed it is Burnham, not Cooper, who ends up in the final round with Burnham

I get the feeling Andy Burnham could do a dump in your living room, and you'd be telling us it was a work of art by a genius

Mind bleach!!!

Scott_P said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

So Yvette has overtaken Andy in CLP nominations.

Not surprising, fewer than half his supporters think he's a PM.

@stephenkb: That didn't last long: @Andy4Leader is back in front. He has 78 to @YvetteForLabour's 76. http://t.co/xs8BomR4qK

I've heard third-hand that something odd happened with the Gedling CLP and Ealing North CLP nominations - that they met, but in fact they didn't nominate a candidate at all.

Apparently (again, I hear this second or third hand) several CLPs have had the leadership nomination meeting (mis)scheduled as General Committee rather than All Member and ended up not nominating anyone as a result. I think - super-tentatively - Brentford and Isleworth is an example of that.

Anyone have any idea what is going on with this one? There's not long left now before the CLPs reach the deadline.

(I asked this last night but wonder if anybody has found the answer out since... sounds like Andrea's kind of thing.)

TheScreamingEagles said:

I get the feeling Andy Burnham could [SNIP}

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quite-Ugly-Morning-Jack-Parlabane-ebook/dp/B0051H50M0/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

DaemonBarber said:

JEO said:

DaemonBarber said:

As the de facto leader of the free world, surely Obama can say what he likes?

Of course he can, but it ranks of hypocrisy. The USA is not even willing to compromise its sovereignty for the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. They would never allow the level of sovereignty infringement the EU has over us.

He is only interested in what is best for the USA. Everything he says should be viewed through that prism. No sure if that counts as hypocrisy.

Not sure that's true - about 2/3 of Americans think the country is going in the wrong direction under his leadership.

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

JEO said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

He's not friendly when it suits him, ask British Petroleum

Perhaps we should listen to that nice Mr Putin, who is very anti EU; having our interests at heart, I am sure.

Ridiculous comment, to be expected from a manic Europhile.

Why should we take notice of any of them?

Because unless we want splendid Corbyite isolation we may need friends and trading partners in the world.

As a matter of interest, which foreign politicians apart from Putin want the break up of the EU?

Does Australia not have friends and trading powers, despite belonging to no intranational union?

The EU need not break up. It can carry on as it wishes without us as a member. Or it can stay with us as a member providing it is willing to make sensible reforms. Either way, the decision should be made for British interest, not the interest of other countries.

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

When was that?

1974. It was right then and still right now.

The_Apocalypse said:

Either way, it's rather remarkable how far Burnham has fallen. Initially in the lead, then overtaken by Corbyn, with Yvette closing in. Burnham and Cooper are so close, if we take CLP nominations as indicative, it's too close to call who is in a position to be the 'stop Corbyn candidate'.

It was actually Chuka who was in the lead initially until he dropped out and Cooper as Shadow Home Secretary is more senior to Burnham at Shadow Health so arguably she should have the better shot. Yet the polls of both members and the public all show Burnham is ahead of Cooper, even if the CLP gap has tightened Burnham remains ahead there too

Guardian story says wealthy donors may desert Party if Corbyn wins.

No surprise I guess but is a Corbyn win going to lead to other practical organisational issues - eg would someone like Axelrod work for Corbyn? OK, he wasn't a success in GE 2015 but the Party is going to need both money and quality people - would it be able to get them under a Corbyn leadership?

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

And now most of those Iron Curtain countries are now happily part of the European family. Each distinct and different, but with much (as Mrs T pointed out) in common.

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

And now most of those Iron Curtain countries are now happily part of the European family. Each distinct and different, but with much (as Mrs T pointed out) in common.

"it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the [European] Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction."

I notice the words "moderated" don't seem to appear on PB these days. Is that because they're not being moderated anymore or because posters are more sensible than they used to be?

AndyJS said:

I notice the words "moderated" don't seem to appear on PB these days. Is that because they're not being moderated anymore or because posters are more sensible than they used to be?

It's because the first rule of PB moderation is don't talk about PB moderation!

JEO said:

foxinsoxuk said:

JEO said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

He's not friendly when it suits him, ask British Petroleum

Perhaps we should listen to that nice Mr Putin, who is very anti EU; having our interests at heart, I am sure.

Ridiculous comment, to be expected from a manic Europhile.

Why should we take notice of any of them?

Because unless we want splendid Corbyite isolation we may need friends and trading partners in the world.

As a matter of interest, which foreign politicians apart from Putin want the break up of the EU?

Does Australia not have friends and trading powers, despite belonging to no intranational union?

The EU need not break up. It can carry on as it wishes without us as a member. Or it can stay with us as a member providing it is willing to make sensible reforms. Either way, the decision should be made for British interest, not the interest of other countries.

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

So shall I, providing we have something similar to what Mrs Thatcher had on offer. A flexible economic community is a fine idea, that I would be glad to be a part of. But a political union where we are merely a satellite of the Eurozone, who act as a bloc to force through new laws without our input? No, thank you.

Do we know how Sweden and Denmark are taking things, particularly the moves towards fiscal union (and hence deeper political integration) of the Eurozone? We used to have a couple of posters from Sweden and Nick Palmer keeps in touch with things in Denmark to some extent, but I'd be interested to know how the Eurozone crisis and its consequences is going down in those countries. Do they fear for their place as a "non-core" EU member?

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

And now most of those Iron Curtain countries are now happily part of the European family. Each distinct and different, but with much (as Mrs T pointed out) in common.

As someone who has longed for a referendum, but in the reality that Out will surely lose, I have to say that the inane comments from intelligent people such as you make me believe it is not such a forlorn hope.

Your arguments are both childish and deluded, if this is all you have then for the first time ever I genuinely believe that Out may win.

I agree that Maggie was wrong on many things, but she was right to campaign to be in the Common market, right to campaign for the single European market.

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

And now most of those Iron Curtain countries are now happily part of the European family. Each distinct and different, but with much (as Mrs T pointed out) in common.

As someone who has longed for a referendum, but in the reality that Out will surely lose, I have to say that the inane comments from intelligent people such as you make me believe it is not such a forlorn hope.

Your arguments are both childish and deluded, if this is all you have then for the first time ever I genuinely believe that Out may win.

I agree that Maggie was wrong on many things, but she was right to campaign to be in the Common market, right to campaign for the single European market.

A market doesn't need a parliament, a flag, or an anthem.

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I shall be voting for the British interest. Like Mrs Thatcher I shall campaign for In.

.The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)

And now most of those Iron Curtain countries are now happily part of the European family. Each distinct and different, but with much (as Mrs T pointed out) in common.

As someone who has longed for a referendum, but in the reality that Out will surely lose, I have to say that the inane comments from intelligent people such as you make me believe it is not such a forlorn hope.

Your arguments are both childish and deluded, if this is all you have then for the first time ever I genuinely believe that Out may win.

I agree that Maggie was wrong on many things, but she was right to campaign to be in the Common market, right to campaign for the single European market.

Except it's no longer just a "common market" - it's now a political project.

Maggie in her own words:

[it] is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the [European] Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.

TheScreamingEagles said:

I expect Andy Burnham will have a very bad day tomorrow.

In The Times, his campaign manager has said Women ‘are not tough enough to lead Labour’

Women are uniquely placed to know all about the pain of labour.

If you're a mother, LIz.

MyBurningEars said:

Do we know how Sweden and Denmark are taking things, particularly the moves towards fiscal union (and hence deeper political integration) of the Eurozone? We used to have a couple of posters from Sweden and Nick Palmer keeps in touch with things in Denmark to some extent, but I'd be interested to know how the Eurozone crisis and its consequences is going down in those countries. Do they fear for their place as a "non-core" EU member?

The Swedes are still largely anti-Euro (solid, sensible people that they are).

There is an interesting report published by the European Commission in May this year:
"Introduction of the euro in the Member States that have not yet adopted the common currency"
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_418_sum_en.pdf

Swedes think that the Euro would have negative consequences for them by a 51/35 margin.
Czechs and Poles are roughly similar. They all think that prices would go up to some degree.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Except it's no longer just a "common market" - it's now a political project.

Maggie in her own words:

[it] is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the [European] Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.

I have to say....you've made some cracking posts tonight, Sunil!

JEO said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

nigel4england said:

foxinsoxuk said:

RobD said:

nigel4england said:

Danny565 said:

Obama sticking his oar in about the EU on the BBC right now

What the fuck has it got to do with him?

Not sure why he isn't allowed to have views on it?

Maybe, just maybe, we should listen to the advice of our friends.

He's not friendly when it suits him, ask British Petroleum

Perhaps we should listen to that nice Mr Putin, who is very anti EU; having our interests at heart, I am sure.

Ridiculous comment, to be expected from a manic Europhile.

Why should we take notice of any of them?

Because unless we want splendid Corbyite isolation we may need friends and trading partners in the world.

As a matter of interest, which foreign politicians apart from Putin want the break up of the EU?

Does Australia not have friends and trading powers, despite belonging to no intranational union?

The EU need not break up. It can carry on as it wishes without us as a member. Or it can stay with us as a member providing it is willing to make sensible reforms. Either way, the decision should be made for British interest, not the interest of other countries.

Australia's top 5 exports are iron ore, coal, gas, gold, oil. Gold... Australia is the top exporter of Coal Briquettes, Iron Ore, Aluminium Oxide, Zinc Ore, Barley, Fuel Wood, Raw Lead, Wool, Manganese Ore, and Salt. Wool... there is not a country on the planet that exports more wool. Then there is the manganese...
It is essentially a continental wide open cast mine. In terms of 'economic complexity' it is ranked way below the UK. In comparison the UK's top export is cars.

The operative word really being 'continental'. It is a vast continental wide (federal) country.
Lets not pretend we can compare the UK and Australia in respect of their trade or economies.

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I expect Andy Burnham will have a very bad day tomorrow.

In The Times, his campaign manager has said Women ‘are not tough enough to lead Labour’

That was his 2010 campaign manager in a not particularly friendly article from him to Burnham, saying he was moving too far to the left from his centrist position in 2010 to win the membership

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andy-burnham-is-a-fake-according-to-his-former-campaign-chief-who-tells-labour-leadership-favourite-to-get-real-in-facebook-rant-10312342.html

No, I'm talking about Lord Falconer and his interview/article in the Times tomorrow.

Well as Lord Falconer was Blair's flatmate, is a top barrister and as Blairite as they come he is hardly the image of some sexist working men's club unionist is he! As Danny565 states (and I will check the comments in the Times tomorrow) it was his assessment of Kendall and Cooper's weaknesses, not Burnham's view and not those of women in general either

It is further evidence of why Burnham repels women