SouthamObserver said:

I would have no real problem with either of those two scenarios. I have much more of an issue with people saying charities are acting politically when what they actually mean is that charities are saying things I do not agree with. If the Charity Commission and the attorney general have chosen not to take any charities to court I suspect it is because they do not feel any charities have flouted the law.

Interesting. Why should one class of political campaigning be exempt from tax, when the vast majority is not? I would be opposed to a "charity" which campaigned for the UK to secede from the European Union, notwithstanding the fact that I agree with the policy, since there is nothing about my political views which entitles them to tax advantages.

The Attorney, although nominally responsible for enforcing the law of charities, does very little these days. As for the Charity Commission, there is widespread agreement that it either does not understand, or refuses to apply the law of charities (see, for example, Luxton & Evans, 'Cogent and cohesive? Two recent Charity Commission decisions on the advancement of religion', [2011] Conv. 144). It regularly loses when it is taken to court by serious litigants (see, for example, Regina (Independent Schools Council) v Charity Commission [2012] Ch. 214 (UT)). It is an utterly useless regulator.

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

EPG Not necessarily, the CSU in Bavaria is an ally of the CDU but runs on a separate platform, Scottish voters are more likely to be sympathetic to unionist parties that focus on Scottish concerns than run on a Westminster dictat

If SLAB are entering a pissing contest with the SNP to see who can be the most left-wing, that must open up ground for the Conservatives.

Not if they are doing it to show how much they hate the Conservatives!

Rule one of PB.com should be not to underestimate how much the vast majority of Scots hate the Conservatives. It sometimes seems to be forgotten around here, where some sincerely expect 7-9 Scottish Conservative seats at GE2020.

But, even if only 25% of Scots are receptive to right-wing views, that gives the Conservatives an opening.

Quite - there is a very solid core of Tory voting in Scotland which has changed little in recent years - the two currently in steep decline are Labour and the LDs. Of course the future for all 3 is very uncertain but talk of visceral hatred for the Tories is nonsensical. That is all in the minds of the guardianistas and was most recently demonstrated as nonsense last May. Some on here really need to grow up.

Yes a decline every election is doing well for them,

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Nice use of statistics to try to promote your fibs, can you show the % of the vote against those same numbers so we can see how relevant they are in reality.

You're the one who has been caught fibbing again - why does the turnout of Labour, Lib Dem or SNP voters affect the number of Tories who turn out?

malcolmg said:

Danny565 said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

EPG Not necessarily, the CSU in Bavaria is an ally of the CDU but runs on a separate platform, Scottish voters are more likely to be sympathetic to unionist parties that focus on Scottish concerns than run on a Westminster dictat

If SLAB are entering a pissing contest with the SNP to see who can be the most left-wing, that must open up ground for the Conservatives.

Not if they are doing it to show how much they hate the Conservatives!

Rule one of PB.com should be not to underestimate how much the vast majority of Scots hate the Conservatives. It sometimes seems to be forgotten around here, where some sincerely expect 7-9 Scottish Conservative seats at GE2020.

But, even if only 25% of Scots are receptive to right-wing views, that gives the Conservatives an opening.

Quite - there is a very solid core of Tory voting in Scotland which has changed little in recent years - the two currently in steep decline are Labour and the LDs. Of course the future for all 3 is very uncertain but talk of visceral hatred for the Tories is nonsensical. That is all in the minds of the guardianistas and was most recently demonstrated as nonsense last May. Some on here really need to grow up.

Yes a decline every election is doing well for them,

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Well, that is substantially less than their increase across the UK as a whole, no?

Be interesting to see if she has the bollox to post the % of vote which will prove she was being economical with the truth. Their support has dwindled, so we can expect to see lots of bluster followed by silence

You were the promulgator of an outright lie 'a decline in every election'.

Post your own percentages (hint - you may not like them...)

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

EPG Not necessarily, the CSU in Bavaria is an ally of the CDU but runs on a separate platform, Scottish voters are more likely to be sympathetic to unionist parties that focus on Scottish concerns than run on a Westminster dictat

If SLAB are entering a pissing contest with the SNP to see who can be the most left-wing, that must open up ground for the Conservatives.

Not if they are doing it to show how much they hate the Conservatives!

Rule one of PB.com should be not to underestimate how much the vast majority of Scots hate the Conservatives. It sometimes seems to be forgotten around here, where some sincerely expect 7-9 Scottish Conservative seats at GE2020.

But, even if only 25% of Scots are receptive to right-wing views, that gives the Conservatives an opening.

Quite - there is a very solid core of Tory voting in Scotland which has changed little in recent years - the two currently in steep decline are Labour and the LDs. Of course the future for all 3 is very uncertain but talk of visceral hatred for the Tories is nonsensical. That is all in the minds of the guardianistas and was most recently demonstrated as nonsense last May. Some on here really need to grow up.

Yes a decline every election is doing well for them,

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Nice use of statistics to try to promote your fibs, can you show the % of the vote against those same numbers so we can see how relevant they are in reality.

You're the one who has been caught fibbing again - why does the turnout of Labour, Lib Dem or SNP voters affect the number of Tories who turn out?

As predicted , their share of voters has continuously declined , bluster covered, we will get radio silence shortly.

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 15.6%
2005: 15.8%
2010: 16.7%
2015: 14.9%

Almost 2pt decrease in share of vote since 2010, or to put it another way, 'Scottish Tories: worst vote share in its history'.

Since that shows an increase in two of the elections - 'decline in every election' has been proven to be the horsefeathers it is.....

In any case, since the hypothesis is 'The Tories are declining in Scotland' how come the number of Tory voters is increasing?

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 15.6%
2005: 15.8%
2010: 16.7%
2015: 14.9%

Almost 2pt decrease in share of vote since 2010, or to put it another way, 'Scottish Tories: worst vote share in its history'.

Since that shows an increase in two of the elections - 'decline in every election' has been proven to be the horsefeathers it is.....

In any case, since the hypothesis is 'The Tories are declining in Scotland' how come the number of Tory voters is increasing?

LOL, you just cannot admit your porkies. Lowest % of the vote in their history. What does that say to you. Your pants must be ablaze.

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

GeoffM said:

Danny565 said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

EPG Not necessarily, the CSU in Bavaria is an ally of the CDU but runs on a separate platform, Scottish voters are more likely to be sympathetic to unionist parties that focus on Scottish concerns than run on a Westminster dictat

If SLAB are entering a pissing contest with the SNP to see who can be the most left-wing, that must open up ground for the Conservatives.

Not if they are doing it to show how much they hate the Conservatives!

Rule one of PB.com should be not to underestimate how much the vast majority of Scots hate the Conservatives. It sometimes seems to be forgotten around here, where some sincerely expect 7-9 Scottish Conservative seats at GE2020.

But, even if only 25% of Scots are receptive to right-wing views, that gives the Conservatives an opening.

Quite - there is a very solid core of Tory voting in Scotland which has changed little in recent years - the two currently in steep decline are Labour and the LDs. Of course the future for all 3 is very uncertain but talk of visceral hatred for the Tories is nonsensical. That is all in the minds of the guardianistas and was most recently demonstrated as nonsense last May. Some on here really need to grow up.

Yes a decline every election is doing well for them,

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Well, that is substantially less than their increase across the UK as a whole, no?

So we've gone from 'decrease' to 'increase' to 'increase not as big as other increase'

Geoff , their support as a % of the vote has declined,

No it hasn't.

In two out of the last 4 elections it increased.

Who wrote 'declined in every election'?

Who is lying?

Throw shovel out of the hole, save what little reputation you have left.

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

GeoffM said:

Danny565 said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

EPG Not necessarily, the CSU in Bavaria is an ally of the CDU but runs on a separate platform, Scottish voters are more likely to be sympathetic to unionist parties that focus on Scottish concerns than run on a Westminster dictat

If SLAB are entering a pissing contest with the SNP to see who can be the most left-wing, that must open up ground for the Conservatives.

Not if they are doing it to show how much they hate the Conservatives!

Rule one of PB.com should be not to underestimate how much the vast majority of Scots hate the Conservatives. It sometimes seems to be forgotten around here, where some sincerely expect 7-9 Scottish Conservative seats at GE2020.

But, even if only 25% of Scots are receptive to right-wing views, that gives the Conservatives an opening.

Quite - there is a very solid core of Tory voting in Scotland which has changed little in recent years - the two currently in steep decline are Labour and the LDs. Of course the future for all 3 is very uncertain but talk of visceral hatred for the Tories is nonsensical. That is all in the minds of the guardianistas and was most recently demonstrated as nonsense last May. Some on here really need to grow up.

Yes a decline every election is doing well for them,

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Well, that is substantially less than their increase across the UK as a whole, no?

So we've gone from 'decrease' to 'increase' to 'increase not as big as other increase'

Geoff , their support as a % of the vote has declined,

No it hasn't.

In two out of the last 4 elections it increased.

Who wrote 'declined in every election'?

Who is lying?

Throw shovel out of the hole, save what little reputation you have left.

If I want repetitional advice I won't be coming to you......

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 15.6%
2005: 15.8%
2010: 16.7%
2015: 14.9%

Almost 2pt decrease in share of vote since 2010, or to put it another way, 'Scottish Tories: worst vote share in its history'.

Since that shows an increase in two of the elections - 'decline in every election' has been proven to be the horsefeathers it is.....

In any case, since the hypothesis is 'The Tories are declining in Scotland' how come the number of Tory voters is increasing?

LOL, you just cannot admit your porkies. Lowest % of the vote in their history. What does that say to you. Your pants must be ablaze.

It says it was an exceptional result for the SNP - and orders of magnitude the lowest hit of the major parties (Labour -17.7%, Lib Dem -11.3%). Against those, -1.8% is rounding.....

You just cannot admit you are wrong. Unfortunately I have no more time for laughter as I have to cut the grass. Will look in later to see how you explain this mythical increase that is in fact a decrease. Law of physics obviously do not apply to Tories, less is indeed more.

Life_ina_market_town said:

SouthamObserver said:

I would have no real problem with either of those two scenarios. I have much more of an issue with people saying charities are acting politically when what they actually mean is that charities are saying things I do not agree with. If the Charity Commission and the attorney general have chosen not to take any charities to court I suspect it is because they do not feel any charities have flouted the law.

Interesting. Why should one class of political campaigning be exempt from tax, when the vast majority is not? I would be opposed to a "charity" which campaigned for the UK to secede from the European Union, notwithstanding the fact that I agree with the policy, since there is nothing about my political views which entitles them to tax advantages.

The Attorney, although nominally responsible for enforcing the law of charities, does very little these days. As for the Charity Commission, there is widespread agreement that it either does not understand, or refuses to apply the law of charities (see, for example, Luxton & Evans, 'Cogent and cohesive? Two recent Charity Commission decisions on the advancement of religion', [2011] Conv. 144). It regularly loses when it is taken to court by serious litigants (see, for example, Regina (Independent Schools Council) v Charity Commission [2012] Ch. 214 (UT)). It is an utterly useless regulator.

Losing a court case does not necessarily imply lack of legal knowledge. As you say, there are serious litigants out there prepared to challenge the Charity Commission's interpretations of the law. If the Commission continually loses cases - as opposed to losing some of the time, which might be expected - then it is certainly incumbent on the government to take action. As yet, I don't think that has happened, has it?

On your first point. I would not have a huge problem with political parties and organisations having charitable status. The major issue for me is transparency.

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 360,658
2005: 369,388
2010: 412,855
2015: 434,097

Now I know 'numbers' is not a Nat strong suit, but can't you tell the difference between 'decline' and 'increase'?

You'll be telling us Scotland props up England next.....

Conservative voters in Scotland:

2001: 15.6%
2005: 15.8%
2010: 16.7%
2015: 14.9%

Almost 2pt decrease in share of vote since 2010, or to put it another way, 'Scottish Tories: worst vote share in its history'.

Since that shows an increase in two of the elections - 'decline in every election' has been proven to be the horsefeathers it is.....

In any case, since the hypothesis is 'The Tories are declining in Scotland' how come the number of Tory voters is increasing?

LOL, you just cannot admit your porkies. Lowest % of the vote in their history. What does that say to you. Your pants must be ablaze.

It says it was an exceptional result for the SNP - and orders of magnitude the lowest hit of the major parties (Labour -17.7%, Lib Dem -11.3%). Against those, -1.8% is rounding.....

You just cannot admit you are wrong

Not when I'm not - I don't have to!

Go on show me either the number of voters or percentage of votes for the Tories declining in every election as you claimed.

In your own time.....

Theuniondivvie said:

Because the number of voters is increasing

The Scottish electorate has been pretty flat - until 2015 which saw a substantial increase - so the Tory vote has increased by more than the electorate - until 2015 - which most would argue was an exceptional election.....

Scottish Electorate:
2001: 3,978,871 (+0.7%)
2005: 3,851,298 (-3.2%)
2010: 3,864,768 (+0.3%)
2015: 4,093,481 (+5.9%)

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. M, cheers

Not sure it'd count as a spoiler, but after one of the Tims (apologies for forgetting if it's Mr. B or Mr. T) complained of spoilers some time ago I try and keep stuff on pb.com as vague as possible.

B, not T.

Mr. T, sorry

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Because the number of voters is increasing

The Scottish electorate has been pretty flat - until 2015 which saw a substantial increase - so the Tory vote has increased by more than the electorate - until 2015 - which most would argue was an exceptional election.....

Scottish Electorate:
2001: 3,978,871 (+0.7%)
2005: 3,851,298 (-3.2%)
2010: 3,864,768 (+0.3%)
2015: 4,093,481 (+5.9%)

The electorate is not the same as number of voters i.e. those who actually vote. Has the Tory vote percentage increased at the same rate as turnout?

A Corbyn led Labour party would bring in annual elections for leader which could well end up with him going next year.Had they have been in place Blair,Brown and Miliband could have been dealt with much earlier and saved the Labour party a few years going nowhere.Annual elections for leader may attract the same people who will vote Jeremy out the following year after voting for him in for leader,but it would be a legacy to be proud of.

SouthamObserver said:

Losing a court case does not necessarily imply lack of legal knowledge. As you say, there are serious litigants out there prepared to challenge the Charity Commission's interpretations of the law. If the Commission continually loses cases - as opposed to losing some of the time, which might be expected - then it is certainly incumbent on the government to take action. As yet, I don't think that has happened, has it?

On your first point. I would not have a huge problem with political parties and organisations having charitable status. The major issue for me is transparency.

Private litigants challenge the Charity Commission when it applies an interpretation of the law that is far too restrictive, as in the ISC case. No one has any interest in challenging the Commission when it adopts an interpretation that is too relaxed, as it does on the political activity of charities.

Still, you have at least adopted a consistent position! Interestingly, some of our sister common law jurisdictions take a more relaxed approach to political charities (see the Supreme Court of New Zealand in Re Greenpeace of New Zealand Inc [2014] NZSC 105; and the High Court of Australia in Commissioner of Taxation v Aid/Watch Inc [2009] FCAFC 128). Perhaps that is the way to go. I am not convinced.

volcanopete said:

A Corbyn led Labour party would bring in annual elections for leader which could well end up with him going next year.Had they have been in place Blair,Brown and Miliband could have been dealt with much earlier and saved the Labour party a few years going nowhere.Annual elections for leader may attract the same people who will vote Jeremy out the following year after voting for him in for leader,but it would be a legacy to be proud of.

So a vote for Corbyn in 2015 is the best way to get Dan Jarvis in 2020?

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