politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson: Tom Watson should be odds-on for LAB deputy
Comments
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Internet Tories hate Watson, but the public doesn't know or care.0
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What about Starfleet officers, or 19th C British soldiers?TheScreamingEagles said:
This is my second favourite one.RobD said:
Titter..... (Pun intended). For you, TSE:TheScreamingEagles said:
This is the greatest Venn Diagram everSunil_Prasannan said:
How about this one?Plato said:I feel the need for a Venn diagram
rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg
http://bit.ly/1GeOgyv
http://www.ltparis.com/images/venn/venn-diagram.jpg
http://bit.ly/1B2ID7L0 -
I forgot to mention that Internet Tories hated Harman too but it didn't matter because not only did the public neither know or care about Harman but they don't know or care about the deputy leader of the Labour Party.EPG said:Internet Tories hate Watson, but the public doesn't know or care.
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You make yourself absurd making claims like this. The UK is part of the EU and part of the negotiations for the TTIP. The fact we aren't unilaterally negotiating with the US is true, but then who is currently?Richard_Tyndall said:
Well currently the UK has no power to negotiate any trade deal at all as we have ceded that power entirely to the EU. So whether the TTIP deal is good or bad for us (and I am not necessarily opposed to it) is immaterial as we are not able to do much about it either way.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, the idea that the UK can negotiate, by itself, a better deal is cretinous. In any case what better deal do you want? The objection to TTIP seems to be that it is what UKIP claim to want - a free trade deal. By definition that means we can more easily sell stuff to them and they can more easily sell stuff to us, without bureaucracy and without zealous over-regulation. That means accepting that their rules on, for example, product and food safety are adequate (and them accepting ours).Luckyguy1983 said:
The content Richard. You know, the actual words on the bit of paper that people sign? The clue's in the title. The idea that a party who support the ability to negotiate a deal with another country should support anything that says 'deal' on the top is so cretinous it renders me almost speechless.Richard_Nabavi said:
I certainly do. Please go ahead.Luckyguy1983 said:
Do you *really* require an explanation of the difference between being signed up to TTIP, and having the ability to negotiate our own trade deals?
It makes sense for the loony left to oppose TTIP - they don't claim to want easy trade relationships. It makes absolutely zero sense, not a smidgen of an iota of sense, for a party which argues it wants less protectionism and regulation to do so.
The US has two major international agreements being made. TTIP (US and EU) and the Trans Pacific Partnership. Neither of those is bilateral between single nations (and if it was it'd be a case of take or leave whatever the US offers).
You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.0 -
I'm sure the Sun or the Times won't care either.EPG said:Internet Tories hate Watson, but the public doesn't know or care.
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"Germany is prepared?".... So what about the rest of us?. Why is it as it appears it's always what bloody Germany and Merkel want ?MTimT said:
Reports today that Germany is prepared to give Greece staggered relief - in exchange for just one major reform, allow some of the relief to flow:rcs1000 said:
My understanding was that there had been broad agreement between the EU and Greece for the last three or four weeks, but the IMF was demanding VAT reform in return for its sign off.MTimT said:
Meanwhile it looks as though the EU has blinked re Greece. I can't believe that Tsipras et al's bad behaviour is going to be rewarded, although we are talking about the EU, so I don't know why I should be so amazed.MikeK said:UKIP on the ball:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/watch-ttip-vote-in-european-parliament-descends-into-chaos-after-ukip-meps-spark-protest-10310457.html
Ukip MEPs sparked a protest that sent the European Parliament into chaos today after a crucial vote and debate on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) was suspended.
Nigel Farage marched to the front of the room after MEPs narrowly voted in favour of a a last-minute delay in the latest debate on the free trade agreement with the United States. The Ukip leader claimed this was proof the EU was "running scared" of the strength of opposition to TTIP.
The only way the EU could "blink" on its own would be if it were to replace all the IMF loans themselves. I don't think that would be politically acceptable in Germany (or in other fiscally Conservative countries) - and don't forget any new deal for Greece has to pass the Bundestag.
So, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/10/greece-creditors-reforms-tsipras-merkel-hollande-live
I don't care if they do or don't do a deal I am just fed up that on this side of the equation the bloody Germans decide. Yes I know they put money in but so do we but if this doesn't matter then you might just as well hand it all over to the EU right now.
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Sunil's Commonwealth includes the Crown Dependencies, Overseas Territories and the EU, by virtue of the latter having English as an official languageRobD said:
Please can I see a version with the British territories included, Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies and their relations to the bodies of Europe, as well as the relationship between themselves. ThanksSunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, it doesn't seem to belong anywhere! I blame BoratRobD said:
The flag of Kazakhstan seems superfluous.Sunil_Prasannan said:
How about this one?Plato said:I feel the need for a Venn diagram
rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg
There's also this version which I think is more pleasing on the eye:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies_with_NATO_members-en.svg0 -
PMQ's was hilarious especially Hattie's last question.. Dave was loving it.0
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It is a combination of both. Both the democratic deficit and centralisation of power combined with the specific exercising of that power. It starts from a position of libertarianism but involves hundreds of major and minor examples of state or supra-state interference in people's lives.williamglenn said:
Is there any concrete case regarding the EU about which you have a strong opinion or is it just the principle you object to?Richard_Tyndall said:
Well currently the UK has no power to negotiate any trade deal at all as we have ceded that power entirely to the EU. So whether the TTIP deal is good or bad for us (and I am not necessarily opposed to it) is immaterial as we are not able to do much about it either way.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, the idea that the UK can negotiate, by itself, a better deal is cretinous. In any case what better deal do you want? The objection to TTIP seems to be that it is what UKIP claim to want - a free trade deal. By definition that means we can more easily sell stuff to them and they can more easily sell stuff to us, without bureaucracy and without zealous over-regulation. That means accepting that their rules on, for example, product and food safety are adequate (and them accepting ours).Luckyguy1983 said:
The content Richard. You know, the actual words on the bit of paper that people sign? The clue's in the title. The idea that a party who support the ability to negotiate a deal with another country should support anything that says 'deal' on the top is so cretinous it renders me almost speechless.Richard_Nabavi said:
I certainly do. Please go ahead.Luckyguy1983 said:
Do you *really* require an explanation of the difference between being signed up to TTIP, and having the ability to negotiate our own trade deals?
It makes sense for the loony left to oppose TTIP - they don't claim to want easy trade relationships. It makes absolutely zero sense, not a smidgen of an iota of sense, for a party which argues it wants less protectionism and regulation to do so.0 -
Germany has more money than the rest of us - indeed, probably than the rest of us put together. Therefore, throughout this crisis it has called the shots. Other nations fall into line in case they need to suckle the teat of the German taxpayer as well - and there are still some out there whose problems may prove even worse than those of Greece.Moses_ said:
"Germany is prepared?".... So what about the rest of us?. Why is it as it appears it's always what bloody Germany and Merkel want ?
I don't care if they do or don't do a deal I am just fed up that on this side of the equation the bloody Germans decide. Yes I know they put money in but so do we but if this doesn't matter then you might just as well hand it all over to the EU right now.
Somewhat related, I well remember this phrase from one of Morgan Kelly's great polemics on the Irish eocnomic catastrophe:
"Since September, a permanent team of ECB “observers” has taken up residence in the Department of Finance. Although of many nationalities, they are known there, dismayingly but inevitably, as “The Germans”."
Available here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-you-thought-the-bank-bailout-was-bad-wait-until-the-mortgage-defaults-hit-home-1.674081
(In case anyone was interested, the team of observers was actually led by a Hungarian academic economist whose name escapes me.)0 -
Gibraltar is the only overseas territory that is part of the European Union (EU), although it is not part of the European Customs Union, the European Tax Policy, the European Statistics Zone or the Common Agriculture Policy. Gibraltar is not a member of the European Union in its own right. The Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus are not part of the European Union, but they are the only British overseas territory to use the Euro as official currency. None of the other Overseas Territories are members of the EU, the main body of EU law does not apply and, although certain slices of EU law are applied to those territories as part of the EU's Association of Overseas Countries and Territories (OCT Association), they are not commonly enforceable in local courts. The OCT Association also provides overseas territories with structural funding for regeneration projects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories#Foreign_affairs0 -
Is her English really that good?RobD said:
Admit it, you're Angela Merkel in disguise.rcs1000 said:
Hmmm... I'm quite close to the German negotiating team, and I've not heard anything yet. There was certainly talk of an interim deal, though. Perhaps this is it.MTimT said:
Reports today that Germany is prepared to give Greece staggered relief - in exchange for just one major reform, allow some of the relief to flow:rcs1000 said:
My understanding was that there had been broad agreement between the EU and Greece for the last three or four weeks, but the IMF was demanding VAT reform in return for its sign off.MTimT said:
Meanwhile it looks as though the EU has blinked re Greece. I can't believe that Tsipras et al's bad behaviour is going to be rewarded, although we are talking about the EU, so I don't know why I should be so amazed.MikeK said:UKIP on the ball:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/watch-ttip-vote-in-european-parliament-descends-into-chaos-after-ukip-meps-spark-protest-10310457.html
Ukip MEPs sparked a protest that sent the European Parliament into chaos today after a crucial vote and debate on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) was suspended.
Nigel Farage marched to the front of the room after MEPs narrowly voted in favour of a a last-minute delay in the latest debate on the free trade agreement with the United States. The Ukip leader claimed this was proof the EU was "running scared" of the strength of opposition to TTIP.
The only way the EU could "blink" on its own would be if it were to replace all the IMF loans themselves. I don't think that would be politically acceptable in Germany (or in other fiscally Conservative countries) - and don't forget any new deal for Greece has to pass the Bundestag.
So, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/10/greece-creditors-reforms-tsipras-merkel-hollande-live
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No we're not putting any money in (except via the IMF but the IMF negotiates for the IMF not nation-states).Moses_ said:
"Germany is prepared?".... So what about the rest of us?. Why is it as it appears it's always what bloody Germany and Merkel want ?MTimT said:
Reports today that Germany is prepared to give Greece staggered relief - in exchange for just one major reform, allow some of the relief to flow:rcs1000 said:
My understanding was that there had been broad agreement between the EU and Greece for the last three or four weeks, but the IMF was demanding VAT reform in return for its sign off.MTimT said:
Meanwhile it looks as though the EU has blinked re Greece. I can't believe that Tsipras et al's bad behaviour is going to be rewarded, although we are talking about the EU, so I don't know why I should be so amazed.MikeK said:UKIP on the ball:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/watch-ttip-vote-in-european-parliament-descends-into-chaos-after-ukip-meps-spark-protest-10310457.html
Ukip MEPs sparked a protest that sent the European Parliament into chaos today after a crucial vote and debate on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) was suspended.
Nigel Farage marched to the front of the room after MEPs narrowly voted in favour of a a last-minute delay in the latest debate on the free trade agreement with the United States. The Ukip leader claimed this was proof the EU was "running scared" of the strength of opposition to TTIP.
The only way the EU could "blink" on its own would be if it were to replace all the IMF loans themselves. I don't think that would be politically acceptable in Germany (or in other fiscally Conservative countries) - and don't forget any new deal for Greece has to pass the Bundestag.
So, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/10/greece-creditors-reforms-tsipras-merkel-hollande-live
I don't care if they do or don't do a deal I am just fed up that on this side of the equation the bloody Germans decide. Yes I know they put money in but so do we but if this doesn't matter then you might just as well hand it all over to the EU right now.0 -
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.0 -
Random anecdote: waiting in the opticians this lunchtime, where they had the now ubiquitous TV on the wall that no chain shop seems to be without these days, when PMQs comes on and Harperson is doing her best to lay in to Cameron. One of the customers starts shouting out - 'why isn't she their leader?', 'she's the best they've got', 'look at the rest of the candidates' etc etc.
Maybe he's got a point?0 -
I other words leaving the EU is not going to usher in a new golden age of trade, nor is leaving going to be destructive from a trade position. Especially if we remain in the EEA.rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
Staying in the EEA ought not to make much difference to our investment and trade position either, since we would be abiding by single market rules.0 -
But it would be destructive to our influence. Instead of employing negotiators, we would employ a photocopier.Flightpathl said:
I other words leaving the EU is not going to usher in a new golden age of trade, nor is leaving going to be destructive from a trade position. Especially if we remain in the EEA.rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
Staying in the EEA ought not to make much difference to our investment and trade position either, since we would be abiding by single market rules.0 -
An update on the Greek issue.
Greece is asking for a 9 month bailout extension and a debt swap between the ECB and the ESM in order to make the extension feasible (getting rid of the ECB bonds), in exchange Greece will continue to negotiate about primary surpluses.
Now we have to see if Germany is ok with it.0 -
He is a good investigator, you can imagine him playing in a 70's detective TV series.Omnium said:
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.
Like a chubby version of Harry Palmer.0 -
It is ironic to reflect that Greece is the country that invented money, and now appears set to run out of it. Or at least it would be, if it wasn't tempting fate...Speedy said:An update on the Greek issue.
Greece is asking for a 9 month bailout extension and a debt swap between the ECB and the ESM in order to make the extension feasible (getting rid of the ECB bonds), in exchange Greece will continue to negotiate about primary surpluses.
Now we have to see if Germany is ok with it.0 -
Certain aspects of membership of the European Union apply to the Crown dependencies, by association of the United Kingdom's membership, governed by [Article 299(6)(c) of the Treaty establishing the European Community replace this reference by Article 355 (5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU):
this Treaty shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man only to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements for those islands set out in the Treaty concerning the accession of new Member States to the European Economic Community and to the European Atomic Energy Community signed on 22 January 1972.;
and by Protocol 3 to the UK's Act of Accession to the Community:[39]
An Act to make provision in connection with the enlargement of the European Communities to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar. [17 October 1972]"
Of the Four Freedoms of the EU, the islands take part in that concerning the movement of goods, but not those concerning the movement of persons, services or capital. The Channel Islands are outside the VAT area (as they have no VAT), while the Isle of Man is inside it.[40] Both areas are inside the customs union.[41]
Channel Islanders and Manx people are British citizens and hence European citizens.[42] However, they are not entitled to take advantage of the freedom of movement of people or services unless they are directly connected (through birth, descent from a parent or grandparent, or five years' residence) with the United Kingdom.[43]
The common agricultural policy of the EU does not apply to the Crown dependencies. Their citizens do not take part in elections to the European Parliament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies0 -
Under the current rather convoluted EU rules we have approx. 1/8th of a vote and no veto in trade discussions. Norway - as an example - has a full vote on the WTO and a veto over EFTA trade deals.Philip_Thompson said:
You make yourself absurd making claims like this. The UK is part of the EU and part of the negotiations for the TTIP. The fact we aren't unilaterally negotiating with the US is true, but then who is currently?Richard_Tyndall said:
Well currently the UK has no power to negotiate any trade deal at all as we have ceded that power entirely to the EU. So whether the TTIP deal is good or bad for us (and I am not necessarily opposed to it) is immaterial as we are not able to do much about it either way.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, the idea that the UK can negotiate, by itself, a better deal is cretinous. In any case what better deal do you want? The objection to TTIP seems to be that it is what UKIP claim to want - a free trade deal. By definition that means we can more easily sell stuff to them and they can more easily sell stuff to us, without bureaucracy and without zealous over-regulation. That means accepting that their rules on, for example, product and food safety are adequate (and them accepting ours).Luckyguy1983 said:
The content Richard. You know, the actual words on the bit of paper that people sign? The clue's in the title. The idea that a party who support the ability to negotiate a deal with another country should support anything that says 'deal' on the top is so cretinous it renders me almost speechless.Richard_Nabavi said:
I certainly do. Please go ahead.Luckyguy1983 said:
Do you *really* require an explanation of the difference between being signed up to TTIP, and having the ability to negotiate our own trade deals?
It makes sense for the loony left to oppose TTIP - they don't claim to want easy trade relationships. It makes absolutely zero sense, not a smidgen of an iota of sense, for a party which argues it wants less protectionism and regulation to do so.
The US has two major international agreements being made. TTIP (US and EU) and the Trans Pacific Partnership. Neither of those is bilateral between single nations (and if it was it'd be a case of take or leave whatever the US offers).
You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.0 -
O/T
Britain’s polling industry should be brought under the control of a state-backed external regulator in the wake of their failure to predict the outcome of the 2015 general election
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/10/polling-industry-general-election-labour-?CMP=share_btn_tw0 -
Simply not true. We would have far more influence over our own trade than we currently have and ultimately we would gave a veto over any EEA agreements we thought were counter to.our interests.williamglenn said:
But it would be destructive to our influence. Instead of employing negotiators, we would employ a photocopier.Flightpathl said:
I other words leaving the EU is not going to usher in a new golden age of trade, nor is leaving going to be destructive from a trade position. Especially if we remain in the EEA.rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
Staying in the EEA ought not to make much difference to our investment and trade position either, since we would be abiding by single market rules.0 -
He absolutely fails the "would you buy a used car from that man" testSpeedy said:
He is a good investigator, you can imagine him playing in a 70's detective TV series.Omnium said:
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.
Like a chubby version of Harry Palmer.0 -
I'm intrigued. That suggests there is a politician you would buy a used car from.SquareRoot said:
He absolutely fails the "would you buy a used car from that man" testSpeedy said:
He is a good investigator, you can imagine him playing in a 70's detective TV series.Omnium said:
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.
Like a chubby version of Harry Palmer.
Who is it?0 -
If that isn't spent it can just be rolled over into next year though.Flightpathl said:
If the NHS were spending 1/120th of its annual budget each year on 1300 babies then it would indeed be a strange thing.Plato said:Whoah. Source Times.
The annual bill for NHS negligence in pregnancy has reached £1 billion after more than 1,300 babies were killed or maimed last year.
What the times says is ''The NHS paid or set aside just under £1 billion last year to settle 1,316 claims of negligence in maternity units, up from £488 million a decade ago,''.
This is not the same as 'spending' 1 billion each year.0 -
Andy Burnham. Although technically it wouldn't be used.ydoethur said:
I'm intrigued. That suggests there is a politician you would buy a used car from.SquareRoot said:
He absolutely fails the "would you buy a used car from that man" testSpeedy said:
He is a good investigator, you can imagine him playing in a 70's detective TV series.Omnium said:
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.
Like a chubby version of Harry Palmer.
Who is it?0 -
So if you accept it makes no difference to trade then we are left with the fact gst it repatriates huge swathes of power over foreign, farming, fishing, Justice, energy, environmental and social policy. Along with many other areas.Flightpathl said:
I other words leaving the EU is not going to usher in a new golden age of trade, nor is leaving going to be destructive from a trade position. Especially if we remain in the EEA.rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
Staying in the EEA ought not to make much difference to our investment and trade position either, since we would be abiding by single market rules.
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Quite like the Noncefinder general0
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While the pro-EU argument is that our voice in the EU is greater than Norway accepting by fax machine whatever the EU has decided. When did Norway last veto a trade deal that the EU wanted and stopped it applying to the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under the current rather convoluted EU rules we have approx. 1/8th of a vote and no veto in trade discussions. Norway - as an example - has a full vote on the WTO and a veto over EFTA trade deals.Philip_Thompson said:You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.
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The PMQ sketch on Guido is spot on0
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The costs of negligence settlements will be spread over many years in the case of supporting a disabled baby. So my point is the costs are not 1 billion annually. I am not BTW making any other comment about this situation, either the cost of modern negligence cases, are they valid or why they happen in the first place. This is indeed a big issue.Pulpstar said:
If that isn't spent it can just be rolled over into next year though.Flightpathl said:
If the NHS were spending 1/120th of its annual budget each year on 1300 babies then it would indeed be a strange thing.Plato said:Whoah. Source Times.
The annual bill for NHS negligence in pregnancy has reached £1 billion after more than 1,300 babies were killed or maimed last year.
What the times says is ''The NHS paid or set aside just under £1 billion last year to settle 1,316 claims of negligence in maternity units, up from £488 million a decade ago,''.
This is not the same as 'spending' 1 billion each year.0 -
It would make a difference to trade as the UK is one the key liberal economics voices within the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
So if you accept it makes no difference to trade then we are left with the fact gst it repatriates huge swathes of power over foreign, farming, fishing, Justice, energy, environmental and social policy. Along with many other areas.Flightpathl said:
I other words leaving the EU is not going to usher in a new golden age of trade, nor is leaving going to be destructive from a trade position. Especially if we remain in the EEA.rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
Staying in the EEA ought not to make much difference to our investment and trade position either, since we would be abiding by single market rules.
The balance of power for a UK-less EU would be shifted towards the French. That is one reason why Merkel is willing to reach a deal to keep us in.0 -
Actually there are quite a fewydoethur said:
I'm intrigued. That suggests there is a politician you would buy a used car from.SquareRoot said:
He absolutely fails the "would you buy a used car from that man" testSpeedy said:
He is a good investigator, you can imagine him playing in a 70's detective TV series.Omnium said:
Wow, bag the screen-rights. It is ridiculous that a nation such as Greece has to come round with the begging bowl. Mostly that's their fault, but if there is one nation on Earth that we owe a good turn to it's the bubbles.TheScreamingEagles said:Can we have a Greek Financial crisis next week please.
I really want to do an "Acropolis Now" headline.
Tom Watson - I vaguely approve of him because he can join dots.
Like a chubby version of Harry Palmer.
Who is it?
Alan Johnson
That very sexy lady who won Morley and Outwood
My MP
Dennis Skinner... (one owner hardly used)
there just to name a few...
If Prezza was still an MP, his car would be worth buying, a forced sale sitting idle for 12 months
Prezza losing his licence has been so enjoyable Aaaaahh wonderful.0 -
They don't need to. The joy of the EEA agreement as far as EFTA is concerned is that they are directly involved in every stage of the initiation and drafting of regulation up to the final vote and the EU knows that if any EFTA member disagrees fundamentally with the final directive or regulation then it will be vetoed. That means they go out of their way to accommodate them. Unfortunately the same doesn't apply to EU members so if we object to particular aspects of a directive then generally we just have to lump it.Philip_Thompson said:
While the pro-EU argument is that our voice in the EU is greater than Norway accepting by fax machine whatever the EU has decided. When did Norway last veto a trade deal that the EU wanted and stopped it applying to the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under the current rather convoluted EU rules we have approx. 1/8th of a vote and no veto in trade discussions. Norway - as an example - has a full vote on the WTO and a veto over EFTA trade deals.Philip_Thompson said:You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.0 -
Final candidates for select committee chairs
Nominations received
Backbench Business Committee
Sarah Champion
Ian Mearns
Barry Sheerman
Business, Innovation and Skills Committee
Adrian Bailey
Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods
Iain Wright
Communities and Local Government Committee
Clive Betts
Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Damian Collins
Damian Green
Jason McCartney
Jesse Norman
Graham Stuart
Defence Committee
Richard Benyon
Dr Julian Lewis
Bob Stewart
Education Committee
Neil Carmichael
Tim Loughton
Caroline Nokes
Energy and Climate Change Committee
Angus Brendan MacNeil
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Neil Parish
Environmental Audit Committee
Huw Irranca-Davies
Barry Gardiner
Dr Alan Whitehead
Foreign Affairs Committee
John Baron
Crispin Blunt
Richard Graham
Daniel Kawczynski
Nadhim Zahawi
Health Committee
David Tredinnick
Dr Sarah Wollaston
Home Affairs Committee
Fiona Mactaggart
Keith Vaz
International Development Committee
Fabian Hamilton
Albert Owen
Yasmin Quereshi
Stephen Twigg
Justice Committee
David Burrowes
Jonathan Djanogly
John Howell
Sir Edward Leigh
Robert Neil
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Laurence Robertson
Petitions Committee
Helen Jones
Nick Smith
Procedure Committee
Charles Walker
Public Accounts Committee
Helen Goodman
David Hanson
Meg Hillier
Gisela Stuart
Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee
Bernard Jenkin
Science and Technology Committee
Nicola Blackwood
Dr Philip Lee
Stephen McPartland
Stephen Metcalfe
Dr Daniel Poulter
Scottish Affairs Committee
Pete Wishart
Standards Committee
Kevin Barron
Transport Committee
Louise Ellman
Treasury Committee
Andrew Tyrie
Welsh Affairs Committee
David T.C Davies
Women and Equalities Committee
Maria Miller
Work and Pensions Committee
Frank Field
Kate Green
Teresa Pearce0 -
No you are kidding yourself if you think Norway are an equal partner. We are involved in every step of the way with the EU negotiations, we are the equivalent of New York. Norway are the equivalent of Puerto Rico.Richard_Tyndall said:
They don't need to. The joy of the EEA agreement as far as EFTA is concerned is that they are directly involved in every stage of the initiation and drafting of regulation up to the final vote and the EU knows that if any EFTA member disagrees fundamentally with the final directive or regulation then it will be vetoed. That means they go out of their way to accommodate them. Unfortunately the same doesn't apply to EU members so if we object to particular aspects of a directive then generally we just have to lump it.Philip_Thompson said:
While the pro-EU argument is that our voice in the EU is greater than Norway accepting by fax machine whatever the EU has decided. When did Norway last veto a trade deal that the EU wanted and stopped it applying to the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under the current rather convoluted EU rules we have approx. 1/8th of a vote and no veto in trade discussions. Norway - as an example - has a full vote on the WTO and a veto over EFTA trade deals.Philip_Thompson said:You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.0 -
It would be a complete travesty if Tredinnick gets the Chair of the Health Committee.AndreaParma_82 said:Final candidates for select committee chairs
Nominations received
Backbench Business Committee
Sarah Champion
Ian Mearns
Barry Sheerman
Business, Innovation and Skills Committee
Adrian Bailey
Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods
Iain Wright
Communities and Local Government Committee
Clive Betts
Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Damian Collins
Damian Green
Jason McCartney
Jesse Norman
Graham Stuart
Defence Committee
Richard Benyon
Dr Julian Lewis
Bob Stewart
Education Committee
Neil Carmichael
Tim Loughton
Caroline Nokes
Energy and Climate Change Committee
Angus Brendan MacNeil
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Neil Parish
Environmental Audit Committee
Huw Irranca-Davies
Barry Gardiner
Dr Alan Whitehead
Foreign Affairs Committee
John Baron
Crispin Blunt
Richard Graham
Daniel Kawczynski
Nadhim Zahawi
Health Committee
David Tredinnick
Dr Sarah Wollaston
Home Affairs Committee
Fiona Mactaggart
Keith Vaz
International Development Committee
Fabian Hamilton
Albert Owen
Yasmin Quereshi
Stephen Twigg
Justice Committee
David Burrowes
Jonathan Djanogly
John Howell
Sir Edward Leigh
Robert Neil
Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Laurence Robertson
Petitions Committee
Helen Jones
Nick Smith
Procedure Committee
Charles Walker
Public Accounts Committee
Helen Goodman
David Hanson
Meg Hillier
Gisela Stuart
Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee
Bernard Jenkin
Science and Technology Committee
Nicola Blackwood
Dr Philip Lee
Stephen McPartland
Stephen Metcalfe
Dr Daniel Poulter
Scottish Affairs Committee
Pete Wishart
Standards Committee
Kevin Barron
Transport Committee
Louise Ellman
Treasury Committee
Andrew Tyrie
Welsh Affairs Committee
David T.C Davies
Women and Equalities Committee
Maria Miller
Work and Pensions Committee
Frank Field
Kate Green
Teresa Pearce0 -
Completely agreed. It surely has to be Dr Wollaston?Richard_Tyndall said:It would be a complete travesty if Tredinnick gets the Chair of the Health Committee.
0 -
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
0 -
Tom Watson is one of the old Brownite's.' A THUG IN A SUIT. If he becomes Andy Burnham's wing-man, then the tories should worry.0
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What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.0 -
Ummm
Man breaks his penis after falling off of Chinese taxi motorbike while watching pornography on his phone as he sat behind the driver… and another passenger
Yu put an adult film on his phone to pass the time on a Shanghai taxi
He came off over a speed bump and damaged the tissue on his penis
The man is now trying to sue the driver for $65,000 after the injury
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3118857/Man-breaks-penis-falling-Chinese-taxi-motorbike-watching-pornography-phone-sat-driver-passenger.html#ixzz3cgpFn800
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook0 -
Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.Philip_Thompson said:
No you are kidding yourself if you think Norway are an equal partner. We are involved in every step of the way with the EU negotiations, we are the equivalent of New York. Norway are the equivalent of Puerto Rico.Richard_Tyndall said:
They don't need to. The joy of the EEA agreement as far as EFTA is concerned is that they are directly involved in every stage of the initiation and drafting of regulation up to the final vote and the EU knows that if any EFTA member disagrees fundamentally with the final directive or regulation then it will be vetoed. That means they go out of their way to accommodate them. Unfortunately the same doesn't apply to EU members so if we object to particular aspects of a directive then generally we just have to lump it.Philip_Thompson said:
While the pro-EU argument is that our voice in the EU is greater than Norway accepting by fax machine whatever the EU has decided. When did Norway last veto a trade deal that the EU wanted and stopped it applying to the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under the current rather convoluted EU rules we have approx. 1/8th of a vote and no veto in trade discussions. Norway - as an example - has a full vote on the WTO and a veto over EFTA trade deals.Philip_Thompson said:You may think the UK could negotiate a better deal that TTIP, though that doesn't seem to be the desire of the loons who're opposing it. But that does not mean we're immaterial to it from within the EU.
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.0 -
Under current circumstances I don't think it makes any difference. The climate is such that no party would realistically suggest us joining it. But obviously as long as we remain in the EU there is the possibility of a future pro EU government either Labour or Tory (though I accept the latter is less likely) taking us in.Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
So for me the absolute security against joining the Euro comes from being outside the EU. But we have to.ve reasonable and accept it is currently unlikely even if we remain in the EU.
.0 -
We're in or out. One must finish up as being the better outcome.Philip_Thompson said:
What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.0 -
Hmm. I think where the bodies are buried is now known.LadyBucket said:Tom Watson is one of the old Brownite's.' A THUG IN A SUIT. If he becomes Andy Burnham's wing-man, then the tories should worry.
0 -
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
0 -
That's as you say an extremely unlikely scenario. Under an equally extremely unlikely scenario if we were to leave the EU/EFTA etc altogether and struggle outside Europe and a future government were to want to take us back in to the EU, then we would no longer have our opt-out and like all new post-Sweden member states we would be legally obliged to ultimately join the Euro as a condition of (re-)joining the EU. So for absolute security we should stay in as we keep the opt out we have as a legacy member with an opt-out.Richard_Tyndall said:
Under current circumstances I don't think it makes any difference. The climate is such that no party would realistically suggest us joining it. But obviously as long as we remain in the EU there is the possibility of a future pro EU government either Labour or Tory (though I accept the latter is less likely) taking us in.Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
So for me the absolute security against joining the Euro comes from being outside the EU. But we have to.ve reasonable and accept it is currently unlikely even if we remain in the EU.
.
Not saying its likely, out is out. But a future government seeking re-entry to the Single Market seems as plausible from here as a future government wanting to take us into the Euro.0 -
So should Andy Burnham.LadyBucket said:Tom Watson is one of the old Brownite's.' A THUG IN A SUIT. If he becomes Andy Burnham's wing-man, then the tories should worry.
0 -
One must finish up for being a better option for multiple reasons yes, but the specific question you raised is moot. We're not in the Euro either way. There are many other reasons to want In or Out - personally I want in because of the right to holiday or even move to any other European nation on a British passport without a visa (and vice-versa). Many anti-immigration people want Out because they view what I see as a good thing as a bad thing. That is one example of a real choice (unless Out=EFTA in which its the same thing).Omnium said:
We're in or out. One must finish up as being the better outcome.Philip_Thompson said:
What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.0 -
The EU bigwigs are playing silly buggers with Greece again. Who will get fed up first?
UKIP Isle of Wight @Iainmckie_UKIP 1m1 minute ago
Hollande, Merkel and Juncker told Greece it must reach a deal with its creditors and stop seeking softer terms http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/06/10/uk-eurozone-greece-talks-idUKKBN0OQ0SL20150610 …0 -
Absolute security against joining the Euro is essentially equivalent to absolute security against getting embroiled in European federalism isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under current circumstances I don't think it makes any difference. The climate is such that no party would realistically suggest us joining it. But obviously as long as we remain in the EU there is the possibility of a future pro EU government either Labour or Tory (though I accept the latter is less likely) taking us in.Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
So for me the absolute security against joining the Euro comes from being outside the EU. But we have to.ve reasonable and accept it is currently unlikely even if we remain in the EU.
.
My fear about the Euro has always been that joining it meant a complete transfer of sovereignty to Europe. I don't mind the end result at all, but I really object to it being by the back door. Greece is now a part of Germany, Germany is a part of Greece. The Greeks get that, but the German people are having to catch up.
0 -
I've just been reading Tom Watson's resignation letter to Ed (just two years ago) after the Falkirk mess. It has some absolute gems with hindsight:
"Having resigned a couple of times before"
"You have it in you to be an outstanding Labour Prime Minister."
"I'm proud of your Buddha-like qualities of patience, deep thought, compassion and resolve."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-letter-ed-miliband-full-text
But most of all, who has heard of Drenge since?0 -
We're not joining it either way, that is 100% secure and not in question. It would take something incredible for the British public to want to join in a referendum and its accepted we can only join after a Yes in a referendum. Our right to stay out of the Euro if we want to is totally agreed and understood no matter what.Omnium said:
Absolute security against joining the Euro is essentially equivalent to absolute security against getting embroiled in European federalism isn't it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Under current circumstances I don't think it makes any difference. The climate is such that no party would realistically suggest us joining it. But obviously as long as we remain in the EU there is the possibility of a future pro EU government either Labour or Tory (though I accept the latter is less likely) taking us in.Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
So for me the absolute security against joining the Euro comes from being outside the EU. But we have to.ve reasonable and accept it is currently unlikely even if we remain in the EU.
.
My fear about the Euro has always been that joining it meant a complete transfer of sovereignty to Europe. I don't mind the end result at all, but I really object to it being by the back door. Greece is now a part of Germany, Germany is a part of Greece. The Greeks get that, but the German people are having to catch up.0 -
If you agree with the analogy then you are one of a tiny number of people who do and clearly you don't understand the relationship. As I say most Norwegians would consider that a joke.Philip_Thompson said:
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
EFTA have FTAs with 35 countries excluding the EEA agreement which is currently more than the EU have in place. This includes countries like Canada with whom the EU had being trying to secure a deal for the last 8 years.0 -
Roger Helmers view on TTIP closely resembles rcs1000. Fancy that!
http://www.ukipdaily.com/ttip-a-nuanced-view/0 -
Woolaston vs Tredinnick for the health chair - obvious choice is obvious !0
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Nonsense - just because you don't want to answer a question doesn't make it moot. I'd defend every man's right to sit on the fence, but sitting on the fence it is. 'I don't know' is the right answer to almost all questions, and we should use it far more. However a question of judgement is a different thing - it's 'if you had to choose'.Philip_Thompson said:
One must finish up for being a better option for multiple reasons yes, but the specific question you raised is moot. We're not in the Euro either way. There are many other reasons to want In or Out - personally I want in because of the right to holiday or even move to any other European nation on a British passport without a visa (and vice-versa). Many anti-immigration people want Out because they view what I see as a good thing as a bad thing. That is one example of a real choice (unless Out=EFTA in which its the same thing).Omnium said:
We're in or out. One must finish up as being the better outcome.Philip_Thompson said:
What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.
0 -
It's not surprising to see this. Greece is fiscally positive and I would expect that Varoufakis is stashing away whatever foreign currency he can get his hands on. The longer they can kick it down the road, the better and stronger the Greek position will be.Speedy said:Agence France-Presse @AFP 9m9 minutes ago
#BREAKING Greece considering bailout extension to March 2016: Greek source
As I said they are seeking to prolong the negotiations for as long as possible.
But to do that the bonds held by the ECB will have to be dealt with somehow, in order to kick the greek problem into the long grass for a few months.0 -
We will never know which is the best outcome, because we can never know what the outcome of the alternative was.Omnium said:
We're in or out. One must finish up as being the better outcome.Philip_Thompson said:
What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.0 -
Well I wasn't expecting that.TheScreamingEagles said:
This is my second favourite one.RobD said:
Titter..... (Pun intended). For you, TSE:TheScreamingEagles said:
This is the greatest Venn Diagram everSunil_Prasannan said:
How about this one?Plato said:I feel the need for a Venn diagram
rcs1000 said:
The answer is that, were we not a member of the EU, we would almost certainly piggyback the TTIP and join it anyway. With the exception of the mega-deals (like TTIP), most trade agreements are negotiated under WTO auspices. The result of this is that it is highly unlikely our external trade situation would change meaningfully were we to leave the EU.TheWhiteRabbit said:
How does TTIP differ from a US-UK trade deal signed by a UK not a member of the EU?
(As an aside, the level of tariffs imposed on goods coming into the UK is among the lowest in the world. See: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg
http://bit.ly/1GeOgyv
http://www.ltparis.com/images/venn/venn-diagram.jpg
http://bit.ly/1B2ID7L0 -
British exporters praying for Greece to be turfed out everywhere !0
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Correction. A Fat SLUG in a suit. The Blairites would not lift a finger to work with him. The wars within Labour will be renewed. Just at a time when the Conservatives have their own troubles.LadyBucket said:Tom Watson is one of the old Brownite's.' A THUG IN A SUIT. If he becomes Andy Burnham's wing-man, then the tories should worry.
0 -
It's astonishing how so many countries are able to prosper, without being part of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you agree with the analogy then you are one of a tiny number of people who do and clearly you don't understand the relationship. As I say most Norwegians would consider that a joke.Philip_Thompson said:
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
EFTA have FTAs with 35 countries excluding the EEA agreement which is currently more than the EU have in place. This includes countries like Canada with whom the EU had being trying to secure a deal for the last 8 years.
Europhiles tell us that this is just not possible.0 -
Yeah... but.. if you decide to go on a mass killing spree then "hey we'll never know if it was for the best" is weak.foxinsoxuk said:
We will never know which is the best outcome, because we can never know what the outcome of the alternative was.Omnium said:
We're in or out. One must finish up as being the better outcome.Philip_Thompson said:
What about either?Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
We have no obligation to join the Euro from either in or out. That's like saying what should I eat to be vegetarian - an apple or an orange.
We, as individuals, can have a view. The happiness I have with myself, and 'my view' is probably correlated to how accurate a prediction of the future it all turns out to be. Somehow in the mix there's a smugness mitigation factor going on too.0 -
Thanks, Sunil!0
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The argument about being forced to join the Euro if we were daft enough to want to rejoin the EU simply doesn't hold water. Both the Czech Republic and Poland are obliged to join and both have made it clear they have no intention of doing so in the foreseeable future. Indeed in both countries there is massive opposition to doing so.Philip_Thompson said:
That's as you say an extremely unlikely scenario. Under an equally extremely unlikely scenario if we were to leave the EU/EFTA etc altogether and struggle outside Europe and a future government were to want to take us back in to the EU, then we would no longer have our opt-out and like all new post-Sweden member states we would be legally obliged to ultimately join the Euro as a condition of (re-)joining the EU. So for absolute security we should stay in as we keep the opt out we have as a legacy member with an opt-out.Richard_Tyndall said:
Under current circumstances I don't think it makes any difference. The climate is such that no party would realistically suggest us joining it. But obviously as long as we remain in the EU there is the possibility of a future pro EU government either Labour or Tory (though I accept the latter is less likely) taking us in.Omnium said:
Richard, what would you suggest as the ideal place for the UK to finish if we want to remain at arms length to the Euro? In or out of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The EFTA veto is a nuclear weapon and just like the Cold War both sides do their dander to make sure it isn't needed. Unfortunately in this particular balance of power we are the equivalent of Bulgaria.
So for me the absolute security against joining the Euro comes from being outside the EU. But we have to.ve reasonable and accept it is currently unlikely even if we remain in the EU.
.
Not saying its likely, out is out. But a future government seeking re-entry to the Single Market seems as plausible from here as a future government wanting to take us into the Euro.0 -
Fortunately this isn't going to happen but if it was a possibility the outcome would not be better polls but fewer polls.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:O/T
Britain’s polling industry should be brought under the control of a state-backed external regulator in the wake of their failure to predict the outcome of the 2015 general election
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/10/polling-industry-general-election-labour-?CMP=share_btn_tw
There is no money in political polling.I went to a talk by Ben Page of Ipsos who said they made a loss on their political polls. The main reason for doing it is for the PR value. I expect if a new QUANGO starts putting onerous restrictions on political polling then a lot of the companies would just pack in.0 -
Watson is the sort of thug who will continue what Brown did.. Wonderful.. Labour will be fecked for decades.. Its hard to believe that whomever they pick.. trouble is around the corner. You only need to hear the howls for Corbyn yesterday...0
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Europhobes tell us that it is impossible to prosper in the EU, but if you look at the graphs of GDP per person in the EU countries there was a sharp uptick in GDP per person from 2001 (shortly after the Euro started). Greece more than doubled its GDP per person over the period, for example.Sean_F said:
It's astonishing how so many countries are able to prosper, without being part of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you agree with the analogy then you are one of a tiny number of people who do and clearly you don't understand the relationship. As I say most Norwegians would consider that a joke.Philip_Thompson said:
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
EFTA have FTAs with 35 countries excluding the EEA agreement which is currently more than the EU have in place. This includes countries like Canada with whom the EU had being trying to secure a deal for the last 8 years.
Europhiles tell us that this is just not possible.
For all its economic problems at present Greece is a lot wealthier than when it joined the EU.
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gnp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:AUT:BEL:ITA:BGR:CZE:DNK:EST:FIN:FRA:DEU:HUN:IRL:LVA:LTU:MLT:NLD:POL:SVN:SVK:ESP:PRT:ROM:SWE:GBR:GRC&ifdim=country&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false0 -
Tell that to the people.foxinsoxuk said:
Europhobes tell us that it is impossible to prosper in the EU, but if you look at the graphs of GDP per person in the EU countries there was a sharp uptick in GDP per person from 2001 (shortly after the Euro started). Greece more than doubled its GDP per person over the period, for example.Sean_F said:
It's astonishing how so many countries are able to prosper, without being part of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you agree with the analogy then you are one of a tiny number of people who do and clearly you don't understand the relationship. As I say most Norwegians would consider that a joke.Philip_Thompson said:
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
EFTA have FTAs with 35 countries excluding the EEA agreement which is currently more than the EU have in place. This includes countries like Canada with whom the EU had being trying to secure a deal for the last 8 years.
Europhiles tell us that this is just not possible.
For all its economic problems at present Greece is a lot wealthier than when it joined the EU.
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gnp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:AUT:BEL:ITA:BGR:CZE:DNK:EST:FIN:FRA:DEU:HUN:IRL:LVA:LTU:MLT:NLD:POL:SVN:SVK:ESP:PRT:ROM:SWE:GBR:GRC&ifdim=country&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false
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Watson would be a disaster if the Deputy Leader post mattered (and I am not sure it does!). Just the sort of Brownite machine politician that got the Labour party into its current mess.SquareRoot said:Watson is the sort of thug who will continue what Brown did.. Wonderful.. Labour will be fecked for decades.. Its hard to believe that whomever they pick.. trouble is around the corner. You only need to hear the howls for Corbyn yesterday...
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He came to a foodbank near me. Considering socialists are keen on the whole concept that people are only poor because others are rich, he seemed to lacked self awareness while talking about the hungry...TCPoliticalBetting said:
Correction. A Fat SLUG in a suit. The Blairites would not lift a finger to work with him. The wars within Labour will be renewed. Just at a time when the Conservatives have their own troubles.LadyBucket said:Tom Watson is one of the old Brownite's.' A THUG IN A SUIT. If he becomes Andy Burnham's wing-man, then the tories should worry.
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Shall we file this under "No Shit Sherlock"
Raheem Kassam: Ukip full of 'rag-tag, unprofessional, embarrassing people'
http://bit.ly/1IvQnyB0 -
JosiasJessop said:
I've just been reading Tom Watson's resignation letter to Ed (just two years ago) after the Falkirk mess. It has some absolute gems with hindsight:
"Having resigned a couple of times before"
"You have it in you to be an outstanding Labour Prime Minister."
"I'm proud of your Buddha-like qualities of patience, deep thought, compassion and resolve."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-letter-ed-miliband-full-text
But most of all, who has heard of Drenge since?
Funny how Falkirk was always presented as a safe labour seat, you get selected there, you are set for life. It now has an SNP 19,000 majority. Its hard not to laugh.0 -
- Predicted Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, would only last another six months in Ukip, as he is not accepting any public funds and is therefore no longer useful.
- Described Ukip’s headquarters as “like a fucking playground”, where he and another aide would show journalists around and “have to lock certain doors because the people behind those doors were too embarrassing to be seen”.0 -
Madness seems to be contagious amongst Kippers - you seem to have caught a nasty dose, having previously been completely sane.Sean_F said:It's astonishing how so many countries are able to prosper, without being part of the EU.
Europhiles tell us that this is just not possible.
'Europhiles' (whoever they are - certainly there are none posting here, and almost none in the Conservative Party, and not many in the Labour Party) say absolutely nothing of the sort. You know this perfectly well.
If by 'Europhiles' you mean sensible people who take a balanced view of the pros and cons of EU membership, what they say is that, yes, of course we could prosper perfectly well outside the EU, provided we bought straight back into a lot of the Single Market rules by means of a trade treaty, which of course we would. Therefore the question is one of degree, convenience, and influence.
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They know already. It is why the Greek people want to stay in the EU and Euro.nigel4england said:
Tell that to the people.foxinsoxuk said:
Europhobes tell us that it is impossible to prosper in the EU, but if you look at the graphs of GDP per person in the EU countries there was a sharp uptick in GDP per person from 2001 (shortly after the Euro started). Greece more than doubled its GDP per person over the period, for example.Sean_F said:
It's astonishing how so many countries are able to prosper, without being part of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you agree with the analogy then you are one of a tiny number of people who do and clearly you don't understand the relationship. As I say most Norwegians would consider that a joke.Philip_Thompson said:
I have read about it and I agree with the analogy which is why I use it. Since you think Norway has it so great, I'd appreciate if wish to name a single achievement Norway has been able to negotiate in a major deal like TTIP that they couldn't from inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:Simply not true. As far as their own trade is concerned Norway has far more influence and control than we do over ours. Just go and read about the EEA agreement. You clearly don't understand it as you still use the idiotic fax machine argument that was developed by the virulently pro EU Norwegian government in the 1990s when they were trying to persuade their voters to join the EU. It has now been so comprehensively debunked in Norway that it is considered a running joke that anyone who uses it obviously knows nothing about the subject.
EFTA have FTAs with 35 countries excluding the EEA agreement which is currently more than the EU have in place. This includes countries like Canada with whom the EU had being trying to secure a deal for the last 8 years.
Europhiles tell us that this is just not possible.
For all its economic problems at present Greece is a lot wealthier than when it joined the EU.
http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gnp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:AUT:BEL:ITA:BGR:CZE:DNK:EST:FIN:FRA:DEU:HUN:IRL:LVA:LTU:MLT:NLD:POL:SVN:SVK:ESP:PRT:ROM:SWE:GBR:GRC&ifdim=country&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false0 -
You missed the funniest bit:TheScreamingEagles said:- Predicted Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, would only last another six months in Ukip, as he is not accepting any public funds and is therefore no longer useful.
- Described Ukip’s headquarters as “like a fucking playground”, where he and another aide would show journalists around and “have to lock certain doors because the people behind those doors were too embarrassing to be seen”.
Raheem Kassam said the flat he shared with Nigel Farage during the election campagin ‘looked like a Damien Hirst exhibition’ because it was so unkempt0 -
To be fair, it was hardly the only one.notme said:JosiasJessop said:I've just been reading Tom Watson's resignation letter to Ed (just two years ago) after the Falkirk mess. It has some absolute gems with hindsight:
"Having resigned a couple of times before"
"You have it in you to be an outstanding Labour Prime Minister."
"I'm proud of your Buddha-like qualities of patience, deep thought, compassion and resolve."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-letter-ed-miliband-full-text
But most of all, who has heard of Drenge since?
Funny how Falkirk was always presented as a safe labour seat, you get selected there, you are set for life. It now has an SNP 19,000 majority. Its hard not to laugh.0 -
Did he mean Tracey Emin, I wondered?Richard_Nabavi said:
You missed the funniest bit:TheScreamingEagles said:- Predicted Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, would only last another six months in Ukip, as he is not accepting any public funds and is therefore no longer useful.
- Described Ukip’s headquarters as “like a fucking playground”, where he and another aide would show journalists around and “have to lock certain doors because the people behind those doors were too embarrassing to be seen”.
Raheem Kassam said the flat he shared with Nigel Farage during the election campagin ‘looked like a Damien Hirst exhibition’ because it was so unkempt
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I like the concept of a PFL. If only the kippers had put it in the manifesto.Richard_Nabavi said:
You missed the funniest bit:TheScreamingEagles said:- Predicted Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, would only last another six months in Ukip, as he is not accepting any public funds and is therefore no longer useful.
- Described Ukip’s headquarters as “like a fucking playground”, where he and another aide would show journalists around and “have to lock certain doors because the people behind those doors were too embarrassing to be seen”.
Raheem Kassam said the flat he shared with Nigel Farage during the election campagin ‘looked like a Damien Hirst exhibition’ because it was so unkempt
BTW I did not think Hirst was particularly unkempt. Perhaps he means like Tracey Emins bed?0 -
Yes, presumably, he can't even get his talentless publicity-seekers straight.Carnyx said:Did he mean Tracey Emin, I wondered?
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I think it was in the 2010 manifesto, sadly now disowned...foxinsoxuk said:I like the concept of a PFL. If only the kippers had put it in the manifesto.
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Emin does come from Margate, and seems to be doing her best to regenerate the place:Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, presumably, he can't even get his talentless publicity-seekers straight.Carnyx said:Did he mean Tracey Emin, I wondered?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-18194768
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Al Campbell in the Times
I'll oust new leader if we flop0 -
Is a concerted attack by the Blairites, including, Big Chief Tone
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHKzdr6U0AAUWeK.jpg:large0 -
Raises the interesting question of how many of SLAB's 2015 candidates are going to hang around for five more years just to turn a 17k SNP majoriity into a 12k SNP majority.....notme said:JosiasJessop said:I've just been reading Tom Watson's resignation letter to Ed (just two years ago) after the Falkirk mess. It has some absolute gems with hindsight:
"Having resigned a couple of times before"
"You have it in you to be an outstanding Labour Prime Minister."
"I'm proud of your Buddha-like qualities of patience, deep thought, compassion and resolve."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-letter-ed-miliband-full-text
But most of all, who has heard of Drenge since?
Funny how Falkirk was always presented as a safe labour seat, you get selected there, you are set for life. It now has an SNP 19,000 majority. Its hard not to laugh.0 -
Jenni Russell in The times (the one who outed Ed's second kitchen) has a piece attacking David MilibandTheScreamingEagles said:Is a concerted attack by the Blairites, including, Big Chief Tone
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHKzdr6U0AAUWeK.jpg:large
the fun continues...0 -
Maybe he'll just co-opt the currently under-employed Tony Blair into the role...?TheScreamingEagles said:Al Campbell in the Times
I'll oust new leader if we flop
What an arrogant tw@.....0 -
Reading between the lines, I think Tony and Al think Labour are going to elect Ed Miliband with a Scouse accentMarqueeMark said:
Maybe he'll just co-opt the currently under-employed Tony Blair into the role...?TheScreamingEagles said:Al Campbell in the Times
I'll oust new leader if we flop
What an arrogant tw@.....0 -
Not sure that we will see much of either after Chilcott is published.TheScreamingEagles said:Is a concerted attack by the Blairites, including, Big Chief Tone
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHKzdr6U0AAUWeK.jpg:large0 -
@GdnPolitics: Labour's Liz Kendall: I have no problem aiming for budget surplus http://t.co/YQyWUDayCw0
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Chilcott is going to be a damp squib.foxinsoxuk said:
Not sure that we will see much of either after Chilcott is published.TheScreamingEagles said:Is a concerted attack by the Blairites, including, Big Chief Tone
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHKzdr6U0AAUWeK.jpg:large0 -
Yes, and the Labour Party will spend three years agonising about how useless he is, before concluding (or in fact half-concluding) that it's too late to get rid of him, and anyway there really isn't any mechanism to do so.TheScreamingEagles said:Reading between the lines, I think Tony and Al think Labour are going to elect Ed Miliband with a Scouse accent
It's all shaping up very nicely.0 -
I think Liz needs to do something to appeal to Labour party members. Even David Miliband would have publicly disagreed with the Tories on something. Hey, even Tony Blair would have done so.Scott_P said:@GdnPolitics: Labour's Liz Kendall: I have no problem aiming for budget surplus http://t.co/YQyWUDayCw
0