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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson says that the Battle of Skinner’s Seat is only the beginning
The House of Commons can be a pretty rowdy place at times but it does at least have rules and conventions to which its members are expected to adhere. At one time, it had far fewer rules and rather more conventions (as the Lords still does).
Comments
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Re Fifa, People are already rolling back on threatening to boycott anything, Blatter not winning enough in the first round is 'heartening' and enough for them to argue he has to take seriously the problems. Unless future arrests rock Fifa, nothing will happen, since as you point out unless a critical mass of associations boycott anything, it does no good.
Re SNP, yes, pretty standard tactics in terms of disrupting. My own view is most conventions are harmless so going against them just to be different is just part of game playing - and it's not only the SNP who play that game - rather than anything serious, and I think how Labour play things will be very interesting. I expect they'll test the waters with different approaches over the next few years to see how it plays around the country and Scotland in particular, seeing if trying to outdo or ignore the SNP tactics works any.0 -
Mm. that's a thought re Labour. Slight problem, they only have one MP who is the Shadow S of S for the SO ...kle4 said:Re Fifa, People are already rolling back on threatening to boycott anything, Blatter not winning enough in the first round is 'heartening' and enough for them to argue he has to take seriously the problems. Unless future arrests rock Fifa, nothing will happen, since as you point out unless a critical mass of associations boycott anything, it does no good.
Re SNP, yes, pretty standard tactics in terms of disrupting. My own view is most conventions are harmless so going against them just to be different is just part of game playing - and it's not only the SNP who play that game - rather than anything serious, and I think how Labour play things will be very interesting. I expect they'll test the waters with different approaches over the next few years to see how it plays around the country and Scotland in particular, seeing if trying to outdo or ignore the SNP tactics works any.
Edit: in Scotland of course, sorry! - but that is wehre the SNP are competing with Labour.0 -
TV was not televised in Parnell,s day..The SNP shenanigans will merely expose them to the ridicule that will be surely pointed their way0
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I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.0
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Early days yet. One shouldn't automatically believe what the SNP's enemies in the media and Westminster say. Open minds needed, and this could get very interesting. Consider, for instance, how positive Mr Speaker was about them the other day.AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
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An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements in groups of a mere 3,4 and 6 MPs in previous days at Westminster.
His protest against the poll tax which delayed the 1988 Budget generated huge publicity and was followed in Scotland by the SNP victory in the Govan by election. The tactics later were more sophisticated. Sillars moved a by election writ in 1989 to delay the Budget -totally within the rules and forcing Kinnock to co-operate with the Tories to save the Budget. Salmond exploited the lack of Committee chair powers to advertise the Tory majority of English MP on Scottish Comiittees - an early example of SVSL. Everything was well done and well advertised and catalpulted the SNP at four MPs to be the major opposition instead of Labour with 50!
Salmond called Labour the "feeble fifty". I think the SNP will prove to be the "fiesty 56"0 -
Well, I did believe what was reported in the newspapers about SNP (leaders, anyway) accepting the result that Scotland delivered in the referendum at least for the immediate future and doing their best along UK lines.Carnyx said:
Early days yet. One shouldn't automatically believe what the SNP's enemies in the media and Westminster say. Open minds needed, and this could get very interesting. Consider, for instance, how positive Mr Speaker was about them the other day.AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Maybe it is just new kids at school & idle hands and all that.
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Cook overtakes Gooch as England's highest Test run scorer.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/223646.html0 -
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
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Yes, who can forget that given the chance of a lifetime to hold the referendum he has dreamed about;scotslass said:An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements
- on a date of his choosing
- with his question of choice
- with his preferred electorate
he managed to completely blow it !
Much respect0 -
FPT - TheWhiteRabbit - yes you are correct, economic inactivity (which counts those unable or unwilling to look for work as well as those actively seeking it) is 22.1%, just a little above its all-time low of 21.7% in 1990. Below that and it would be the lowest since records began in 1971. It should be mentioned though that only 16-64-year-olds are counted, and so the rise in women's State Pension age has an impact.
edit: checking US stat, seems high.0 -
‘But here is where the politics gets cute.’
Parliamentary opposition is about to get a whole lot noisier, but I doubt effectiveness will be the beneficiary of it. – The media coverage so far, has portrayed such behaviour as petulant and childish, it will take quite a while to rewrite that narrative.0 -
If they are good enough for Mr Rees-Mogg MP, of all people, then perhaps the media narrative needs to be revised.AnneJGP said:
Well, I did believe what was reported in the newspapers about SNP (leaders, anyway) accepting the result that Scotland delivered in the referendum at least for the immediate future and doing their best along UK lines.Carnyx said:
Early days yet. One shouldn't automatically believe what the SNP's enemies in the media and Westminster say. Open minds needed, and this could get very interesting. Consider, for instance, how positive Mr Speaker was about them the other day.AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Maybe it is just new kids at school & idle hands and all that.
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Well as far as the impact of the state pension age, the rise of the women's age up to 65 has a more obvious impact that above that.NeilVW said:FPT - TheWhiteRabbit - yes you are correct, economic inactivity (which counts those unable or unwilling to look for work as well as those actively seeking it) is 22.1%, just a little above its all-time low of 21.7% in 1990. Below that and it would be the lowest since records began in 1971. It should be mentioned though that only 16-64-year-olds are counted, and so the rise in women's State Pension age has an impact (as will men's SP age when it rises from 65 along with women from 2018.)
The rate in the US is 38.7%.
Anyway as I indicated I think Labour were too complacent about the concept of full employment. I am confident the government can and should target 4% unemployment and 20% inactivity.
The US rate is really high, in response to your edit. Don't know the exact figure though.0 -
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.0 -
Media narratives need something to feed off even if they are very exaggerated, it will adjust in time if the narrative is patently ridiculous.Carnyx said:
If they are good enough for Mr Rees-Mogg MP, of all people, then perhaps the media narrative needs to be revised.AnneJGP said:
Well, I did believe what was reported in the newspapers about SNP (leaders, anyway) accepting the result that Scotland delivered in the referendum at least for the immediate future and doing their best along UK lines.Carnyx said:
Early days yet. One shouldn't automatically believe what the SNP's enemies in the media and Westminster say. Open minds needed, and this could get very interesting. Consider, for instance, how positive Mr Speaker was about them the other day.AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Maybe it is just new kids at school & idle hands and all that.
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Again you are clinging to straws which don't match reality.Scott_P said:
Yes, who can forget that given the chance of a lifetime to hold the referendum he has dreamed about;scotslass said:An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements
- on a date of his choosing
- with his question of choice
- with his preferred electorate
he managed to completely blow it !
Much respect
Until the last few years, Independence has NEVER been a possibility for Scotland. It has never commanded enough public support, being supported by at best 25% of the electorate on a consistent basis.
Thanks to Salmond that is now 45% at least, probably closer to 50% and for people like me who until recently never believed we could possibly see Independence now know it is not only possible but highly likely.
Salmond has worked miracles.0 -
Yes I was looking at Northern Ireland for some reason!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Well as far as the impact of the state pension age, the rise of the women's age up to 65 has a more obvious impact that above that.NeilVW said:FPT - TheWhiteRabbit - yes you are correct, economic inactivity (which counts those unable or unwilling to look for work as well as those actively seeking it) is 22.1%, just a little above its all-time low of 21.7% in 1990. Below that and it would be the lowest since records began in 1971. It should be mentioned though that only 16-64-year-olds are counted, and so the rise in women's State Pension age has an impact (as will men's SP age when it rises from 65 along with women from 2018.)
The rate in the US is 38.7%.
Anyway as I indicated I think Labour were too complacent about the concept of full employment. I am confident the government can and should target 4% unemployment and 20% inactivity.
The US rate is really high, in response to your edit. Don't know the exact figure though.
The latest OECD comparison puts the US inactivity rate about four points above ours.
I take your point about SP age, but I would suggest the higher above 64 it is, the lower the proportion of people who will stop work at 64 or earlier. :-)0 -
I doubt that! Whatever the Scottish people decided in their referendum won't impact greatly on the SNP agenda - why should it? That's just a question of how long they feel that decision should be ostensibly respected.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
I suspect that one thing here is that SNP have been sending their 1st division politicians to Holyrood ever since the Scottish devolved government was set up, whereas (without wishing to insult anyone) my impression is that UK parties have by & large been sending 1st division to Westminster.
So what we probably have in Westminster now is (mostly) SNP 2nd division, or a youth team. And they all arrived in a gang, rather than as ones & twos knowing few others.
(May I add how nice it is to have caught the start of a thread - I usually join after about 250 comments.)
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As you say Mr Herdson, Scottish MPs have little to do and little responsibility in Westminster. Other than to make themselves and sadly Scotland look stupid.0
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The great disappointment for the SNP was the tories' unexpected majority. They thought they were really going to be able to cause problems, but they'll be irrelevant when it comes to most votes. So, I think they'll be reduced to behaving like the disruptive teenager in the corner of the room whom everyone else ignores.0
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Don’t over egg it – he failed to win independence for Scotland despite a decade to prepare and a whole load of lies.Dair said:
Salmond has worked miracles.Scott_P said:
Yes, who can forget that given the chance of a lifetime to hold the referendum he has dreamed about;scotslass said:An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements
- on a date of his choosing
- with his question of choice
- with his preferred electorate
he managed to completely blow it !
Much respect0 -
Of course the "white rose of Scotland" brought to notice by the SNP this week (see the phto of Salmond above) relates to the poem by Hugh McDairmid, the famous Nazi sympathizer, who the SNP revere to this day. Give the enough rope and they will reveal themselves for what they are...nasty racist thugs0
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I seem to remember about a year ago that you were virtually pleasuring yourself at the prospect of the SNP being obliterated after they lost the referendum. How's that going for you?Scott_P said:
Yes, who can forget that given the chance of a lifetime to hold the referendum he has dreamed about;scotslass said:An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements
- on a date of his choosing
- with his question of choice
- with his preferred electorate
he managed to completely blow it !
Much respect0 -
I've witnessed many supposed 'End of Politics' scenarios in my time - Thatcher, Blair. (Even John Major was once briefly thought to have destroyed the Left.) This is as good as it gets for the SNP. The Scots, rightly, gave an arrogant yet jejune Scottish Labour the biggest of all kickings. But that cheap thrill is done, it's over. Soon the Scots will need someone else to blame. Preening and strutting nationalists will be the perfect specimen to cut down to size.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.0 -
We'll know how Labour intend to respond when they elect their next leader. If it's Kendall, they're going for responsibility and sober competence; Cooper, prissiness and hectoring; Creagh, anything up to and including violent emotional outbursts about nothing (looking at her record, which I did for a while this morning, there's a woman who could start a fight in an empty room).
On the whole, I think they would be wise to leave the rowdiness to the SNP. Part of the reason why they lost is that they were seen as weak and irresponsible. Lots of shouting, jeering and jostling on the six o'clock news isn't exactly going to dispel that impression.
(I left out Burnham because if they elect him they are clearly resolved merely to be irresolute.)0 -
Yes, I even see - in time - a way back for the LDs!Stark_Dawning said:
I've witnessed many supposed 'End of Politics' scenarios in my time - Thatcher, Blair. (Even John Major was once briefly thought to have destroyed the Left.) This is as good as it gets for the SNP. The Scots, rightly, gave an arrogant yet jejune Scottish Labour the biggest of all kickings. But that cheap thrill is done, it's over. Soon the Scots will need someone else to blame. Preening and strutting nationalists will be the perfect specimen to cut down to size.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.0 -
One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.0 -
What currency do Scotland propose to use?Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.
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It's already becoming clear that there are some SNP MPs that are more social democrat than nationalist and others that are nationalist to the core of their being. The challenge over the longer term will be to keep them together - especially as the Scottish parliament gains more power and the oil price remains at under $100 a barrel.
Fundamentalists want a border even if it means a poorer Scotland, genuine social democrats do not.0 -
No political party remains popular forever. That's just a law of nature. One day the SNP will be unpopular.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.
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Is that the case for Scottish media coverage? Genuine question.SimonStClare said:‘But here is where the politics gets cute.’
Parliamentary opposition is about to get a whole lot noisier, but I doubt effectiveness will be the beneficiary of it. – The media coverage so far, has portrayed such behaviour as petulant and childish, it will take quite a while to rewrite that narrative.0 -
Much less so, and as far as the SNP are concerned that's what counts.NickPalmer said:
Is that the case for Scottish media coverage? Genuine question.SimonStClare said:‘But here is where the politics gets cute.’
Parliamentary opposition is about to get a whole lot noisier, but I doubt effectiveness will be the beneficiary of it. – The media coverage so far, has portrayed such behaviour as petulant and childish, it will take quite a while to rewrite that narrative.0 -
You are really not getting it.Stark_Dawning said:
I've witnessed many supposed 'End of Politics' scenarios in my time - Thatcher, Blair. (Even John Major was once briefly thought to have destroyed the Left.) This is as good as it gets for the SNP. The Scots, rightly, gave an arrogant yet jejune Scottish Labour the biggest of all kickings. But that cheap thrill is done, it's over. Soon the Scots will need someone else to blame. Preening and strutting nationalists will be the perfect specimen to cut down to size.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.
As far as Holyrood goes, the SNP are a very popular and well respected government. Despite anything the Loyalists throw at them, they remain popular and respected and have incredibly high approval ratings, both as a government and individually.
SLAB meanwhile have no leader, no leadership, no prospect of leadership and another kicking due in less than 12 months time. They can get much worse, they are almost certain to get much worse and will see half their representation in Holyrood vanish in May 2016.
There aren't enough marginal seats on current numbers for tactical voting to have an impact. There isn't enough consideration of tactical voting for it have an impact. For the Loyalist parties things do not look at all good.0 -
Afternoon Mr Palmer – Based on the UK nationals, no idea how it was reported by their Scottish print editions or the local papers.NickPalmer said:
Is that the case for Scottish media coverage? Genuine question.SimonStClare said:
[edit] - cheers @Theuniondivvie0 -
I think that the antics of the SNP in the HoC will be looked upon favorably by alot of Scots.
The idea that some of their own are upsetting what is perceived as part of the posh upperclass English sect is something that most will enjoy.
People are right to point out the lesser workload that Scottish MPs have, it results in them having more time to spend in the chamber itself. This again creates a favourable impression with the voters back home when proceedings from the Commons are shown on the TV.
The thing that is likely to bring down the SNP it terms of popularity is some area of policy that splits the party. Remember there are all sorts of people in the same party who are joined together by the single goal of independence. The good news for the SNP is that since the overall goal appears to be very close that I suspect most in their party will go along with anything so long as the overall objective is achieved.
If however there is a delay in getting the 2nd referendum then the greater the chance that "an event" could create friction in the party. I would guess that in 15 years time there will be either an independent Scotland or a 2nd (probably more centre-right) independence party.0 -
About a month after independence, I'd have thought.Sean_F said:
No political party remains popular forever. That's just a law of nature. One day the SNP will be unpopular.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.
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A neat summary of the 59 Scottish MPs backgrounds, not quite the marauding bunch of benefit junkies you were probably expecting. Apologies I don't think any of them have been to Oxbridge:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
https://twitter.com/RobbieDinwoodie/status/600266504744148992/photo/1
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All true Dair. But that could have been said of Thatcher in April 1983 or Blair in 1999, or going back, Baldwin in 1927, Macmillan in 1960 and Wilson in 1967. Looking to Ireland, it could have been said as well of Eamonn de Valera in 1935. At that time, none of those could foresee the way/time in which they could be removed from office. Yet, sooner or later, all of them were sacked by the electorate or by their own parties who were afraid of the electorate.Dair said:
You are really not getting it.
As far as Holyrood goes, the SNP are a very popular and well respected government. Despite anything the Loyalists throw at them, they remain popular and respected and have incredibly high approval ratings, both as a government and individually.
SLAB meanwhile have no leader, no leadership, no prospect of leadership and another kicking due in less than 12 months time. They can get much worse, they are almost certain to get much worse and will see half their representation in Holyrood vanish in May 2016.
There aren't enough marginal seats on current numbers for tactical voting to have an impact. There isn't enough consideration of tactical voting for it have an impact. For the Loyalist parties things do not look at all good.
Eventually, parties become stale and tired. They start to become corrupt as the big money gravitates towards them. They start to attract less and less talent as patronage takes over from meritocracy. They become blamed for more and more as memories of their predecessors recede into the distance. At that point, in a democratic system, people rally around a different party and the incumbents are kicked out.
It may take a while in the case of the SNP, because they are so new, and so fresh, and so exciting. But it will happen, and another party - I don't know which one, could be any of about four - will emerge to take the mantle.
Indeed, if Scotland goes independent it may happen more quickly as the parties fracture and reform along new lines as the unionist/independence debate fades into irrelevance.0 -
Here is a snapshot of a few from the BBC:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-325797220 -
Mr Herdson... Salmond is not the SNP leader in Westminster is he? Has he promised to be a back seat driver?0
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That's really my point in the reply to Stark_Dawning and others of his ilk.ydoethur said:
All true Dair. But that could have been said of Thatcher in April 1983 or Blair in 1999, or going back, Baldwin in 1927, Macmillan in 1960 and Wilson in 1967. Looking to Ireland, it could have been said as well of Eamonn de Valera in 1935. At that time, none of those could foresee the way/time in which they could be removed from office. Yet, sooner or later, all of them were sacked by the electorate or by their own parties who were afraid of the electorate.
Eventually, parties become stale and tired. They start to become corrupt as the big money gravitates towards them. They start to attract less and less talent as patronage takes over from meritocracy. They become blamed for more and more as memories of their predecessors recede into the distance. At that point, in a democratic system, people rally around a different party and the incumbents are kicked out.
It may take a while in the case of the SNP, because they are so new, and so fresh, and so exciting. But it will happen, and another party - I don't know which one, could be any of about four - will emerge to take the mantle.
Indeed, if Scotland goes independent it may happen more quickly as the parties fracture and reform along new lines as the unionist/independence debate fades into irrelevance.
The idea that the SNP will fall at the first hurdle and be kicked out in favour of Labour any time soon is risible. For the first two exanmples above, it took Labour 14 years to oust the Tories after 1983, it took the Tories 18 years to regain power after Blair in 1997.
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
Calum - can we leave the gratuitous insults out? I was genuinely asking for information and was curious to know who they were or what they had done (thank you for the said information).calum said:
A neat summary of the 59 Scottish MPs backgrounds, not quite the marauding bunch of benefit junkies you were probably expecting. Apologies I don't think any of them have been to Oxbridge:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
https://twitter.com/RobbieDinwoodie/status/600266504744148992/photo/1
As for Oxbridge, my doctorate is from Aberystwyth, and having met several Oxbridge graduates I would back the quality of any other university in the UK ahead of those two. Far too many idiots who seem to have been given degrees on the nod because of their fathers' connections (Miliband, Balls, Hunt, Kaletsky, Waldegrave, Osborne...) while I had a gruelling two-hour viva where I was ruthlessly probed on every typing error.
Making such remarks just makes you look petty.
Finally, I would point out I am Welsh, and Welsh-speaking Welsh at that, not English. Is insulting those people you keep talking about wanting to make common cause with a really good idea? Just a thought.0 -
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
ydoethur said:
One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
Interesting to read about the backgrounds of the new SNP cohort from the other posters' replies. (NB. I certainly didn't intend to portray any of them as incompetent or stupid - why would they be? - simply making the point that Westminster is not the SNP's top priority. - edited to add, happy to be corrected on this.)
We might be able to use the 1997 New Labour cohort ('Blair babes' was it?) as some sort of guide as to how people respond to unexpected election.
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Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.0 -
If FFA is achieved as a fair and equitable arrangement for the English, Scotland would go bust.Dair said:
Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.
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There isn't a bit in Oxford public exam. papers where you tell the examiner who your dad was, and at proper universities you don't submit PhDs (or rather D Phils) with typing errors in them in the first place.ydoethur said:
Calum - can we leave the gratuitous insults out? I was genuinely asking for information and was curious to know who they were or what they had done (thank you for the said information).calum said:
A neat summary of the 59 Scottish MPs backgrounds, not quite the marauding bunch of benefit junkies you were probably expecting. Apologies I don't think any of them have been to Oxbridge:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
https://twitter.com/RobbieDinwoodie/status/600266504744148992/photo/1
As for Oxbridge, my doctorate is from Aberystwyth, and having met several Oxbridge graduates I would back the quality of any other university in the UK ahead of those two. Far too many idiots who seem to have been given degrees on the nod because of their fathers' connections (Miliband, Balls, Hunt, Kaletsky, Waldegrave, Osborne...) while I had a gruelling two-hour viva where I was ruthlessly probed on every typing error.
Making such remarks just makes you look petty.
Finally, I would point out I am Welsh, and Welsh-speaking Welsh at that, not English. Is insulting those people you keep talking about wanting to make common cause with a really good idea? Just a thought.
What was that about gratuitous insults?
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Good afternoon, everyone.
Whilst unfamiliar with that historical period, it seems a good comparison to me.0 -
I think Chris’s article, in summary its all the SNPs fault, highlights a few issues which I’d like to pick up on:
https://medium.com/@chrisdeerin/bayoneting-the-wounded-c7a0d4599424
In terms of SLAB, it was the undermining of Johan Lamont by London Labour, MSM and Jim Murphy which put SLAB firmly on the road to extinction. As leader Murphy has failed in all measurable areas. The pressure from within SLAB is what forced Jim to resign, not Cybernats. Indeed the SLAB SEC have now excluded Jim from the committees focused on the rebuilding SLAB, as they were concerned Jim would use this process to try and settle scores within SLAB.
Chris also highlights that Carmichael has been under pressure to resign for many weeks, it was only seven days ago when this became public knowledge on 23rd May, so if Carmichael has been under pressure to resign for many weeks I can only assume that it is internal LibDem pressure. I think Carmichael only has himself to blame as he had so many opportunities to come clean on his involvement in leaking the memo before 7th May. To make matters worse it now transpires that he told Tavish Scott, Shetlands MSP, about his actions on 10th May.
We have since had barmy interventions by Malcom Bruce, Michael White and Willie Rennie. The O&S electorate who are now stuck with a lame duck MP who the MSM should be worrying about not Carmichael. Bizarrely the Scottish LibDems recently put out the following:
http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/rennie_lib_dems_are_listening
Chris keeps banging on about Cybernats but fails to point out that there is a vibrant Cyberunionist community battling daily with the Cybernats on social media. Chris and his right wing MSM buddies are also Cyberunionists as they retweet each other’s articles all day long.
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Just come across this tweet on Wings' feed:
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/604655050552545280/photo/1
One does rather wonder about the implications for tactical voting, and whether those urging voting for Tories or LDs will be disciplined. And at the futility of going to the trouble of writing a legalistic letter accusing someone of supporting a non-existent organization.0 -
Apologies if I've offended you, I was recycling an old post to provide you with the information you were after. The original post was meant in a light hearted vain with the MSM getting a big carried away about the SNP MPs backgrounds.ydoethur said:
Calum - can we leave the gratuitous insults out? I was genuinely asking for information and was curious to know who they were or what they had done (thank you for the said information).calum said:
A neat summary of the 59 Scottish MPs backgrounds, not quite the marauding bunch of benefit junkies you were probably expecting. Apologies I don't think any of them have been to Oxbridge:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
https://twitter.com/RobbieDinwoodie/status/600266504744148992/photo/1
As for Oxbridge, my doctorate is from Aberystwyth, and having met several Oxbridge graduates I would back the quality of any other university in the UK ahead of those two. Far too many idiots who seem to have been given degrees on the nod because of their fathers' connections (Miliband, Balls, Hunt, Kaletsky, Waldegrave, Osborne...) while I had a gruelling two-hour viva where I was ruthlessly probed on every typing error.
Making such remarks just makes you look petty.
Finally, I would point out I am Welsh, and Welsh-speaking Welsh at that, not English. Is insulting those people you keep talking about wanting to make common cause with a really good idea? Just a thought.0 -
"One day the SNP will be unpopular." Will that be before or after independence.
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I'm rethinking my support for Kendall. From the Free School endorsement (and there's hardly a huge amount of evidence they are the pancea to all the woes in the education system) to the need to support 'white' working classes (why not just support the working class in general). If I wanted to vote Conservative, I would have done so at the GE.
Labour really have 'meh' choices for Labour leader.0 -
Oh happy days.Dair said:
You are really not getting it.Stark_Dawning said:
I've witnessed many supposed 'End of Politics' scenarios in my time - Thatcher, Blair. (Even John Major was once briefly thought to have destroyed the Left.) This is as good as it gets for the SNP. The Scots, rightly, gave an arrogant yet jejune Scottish Labour the biggest of all kickings. But that cheap thrill is done, it's over. Soon the Scots will need someone else to blame. Preening and strutting nationalists will be the perfect specimen to cut down to size.Dair said:
Labour are finished in Scotland.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
Seriously, how can anyone think this idea that the SNP will somehow wither because their strong position - which they are playing extremely well so far - will backfire on them. it's ridiculous paternalistic nonsense, somehow SNP MPs are believed to be inferior and incompetent. We are seeing just the opposite.
The Second Referendum will be within 10 years, most likely during the next Holyrood term. The SNP know what happens if you wait too long because the Quebec example is staring them in the face. Scotland will back a Referendum in the next Holyrood Manifesto, the SNP have no desire to have power over the rest of the UK.
Reminds me of the four year run up to SindyRef....how none of us "got it".
Keep up the good work.0 -
Some interesting spreadsheets at the bottom of this web page comparing the results of the 2010 and 2015 general elections.
http://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/general-election-results-20150 -
So why not go for it?Dair said:
Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
Funny how independence could be achieved in 18 months, but FFA will take 'several years'.....0 -
Great interactive maps as well re the 2015 general election.
http://data.london.gov.uk/2015-general-election-maps/0 -
I stand by my comment in the leader: "Some may object that Salmond is not in fact the SNP’s Westminster leader. This is untrue: he is the leader in fact; he is simply not the leader in name".Flightpathl said:Mr Herdson... Salmond is not the SNP leader in Westminster is he? Has he promised to be a back seat driver?
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Based on this data, I asked myself: are constituency Labour Parties where there is a high Labour vote more or less likely to back Jowell/Khan/Lammy for the mayoralty? Given the selection will be happening among members.old_labour said:Great interactive maps as well re the 2015 general election.
http://data.london.gov.uk/2015-general-election-maps/
Boringly, however, the answer is not much change.0 -
OL - A good resource, many thanks! :-)old_labour said:Some interesting spreadsheets at the bottom of this web page comparing the results of the 2010 and 2015 general elections.
http://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/general-election-results-2015
The excellent PB Analyst "AndyJS "also posted a link to a spreadsheet that he had created based on every constituency. I gratefully took a copy and have been adding to it on my private files, to get majorities, 2nd parties, swings needed etc.
If I can create anything worthwhile then I will get advice on how I can share it.
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Do you think these supporters of the Union need any more rope to reveal them for what they are?franklyn said:Of course the "white rose of Scotland" brought to notice by the SNP this week (see the phto of Salmond above) relates to the poem by Hugh McDairmid, the famous Nazi sympathizer, who the SNP revere to this day. Give the enough rope and they will reveal themselves for what they are...nasty racist thugs
Scottish Defence League
English Defence League
British National Party
National Front
Britain First
Ulster Volunteer Force
Loyalist Volunteer Force
It's Hugh MacDiarmid btw. He wasn't a Nazi sympathiser, and his erstwhile admiration of Mussolini's Fascists was probably somewhat less fulsome than e.g. Churchill's.0 -
Ishmael I did my MSc at Aberystwyth, I would have you know it is not only the oldest university in Wales as a founder of the university of Wales but older than most universities in the UK as a whole, indeed I knew several Oxbridge undergrads doing postgrads there0
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On Topic...Thank You Mr Herdson for an interesting article. I love commentaries that add a historical perspective to current events.
I think that the alleged rowdiness of the SNP MPs has been greatly exaggerated. They are paragons of good behaviour compared to some of the events that routinely go on in the chamber when it turns into what sounds like a bear pit during a spirited PMQ.
Why is applauding considered unacceptable, for example, but loud baying and waving of order papers is apparently OK?
It's not for nothing that the most familiar image of the Speaker is of someone yelling "Order! Order!"
It's about time ALL MPs grew up a bit.0 -
Carnyx I believe the Tories have done the same with members backing UKIP. On tactical voting you could vote Tory or LD on the constituency seat and say Labour on the List if, for example, you live in the Borders and if you managed to keep the SNP out I expect Scottish Labour would turn a blind eye0
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Does PB have any London CLP members who have gone/are going to pick a mayoral nominee?0
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I don't doubt you, it was the chippy insults about Oxford I was objecting to.HYUFD said:Ishmael I did my MSc at Aberystwyth, I would have you know it is not only the oldest university in Wales as a founder of the university of Wales but older than most universities in the UK as a whole, indeed I knew several Oxbridge undergrads doing postgrads there
0 -
Tennis: impressively awful, 0/3 tips for today. Coric was never in it, the favourite Goffin choked like a first-time sword-swallower and Anderson [although it was relatively competitive] has just lost to Gasquet.
Anyone would think I punched a witch in the face on New Year's Day...0 -
If I may say so I think you are being a tiny bit po faced about things like PMQs. A minister or mp needs to command the house and part of that is earning respect as well as being able to survive pointed heckling. I do not think cameron handled Ed Balls (did I just say that) very well, but had the last laugh. This business about trying to bags the odious Skinners seat is plain childish and pathetic. The SNPs tactics are a double edged sword. Personally I am very sanguine about their actions.Disraeli said:On Topic...Thank You Mr Herdson for an interesting article. I love commentaries that add a historical perspective to current events.
I think that the alleged rowdiness of the SNP MPs has been greatly exaggerated. They are paragons of good behaviour compared to some of the events that routinely go on in the chamber when it turns into what sounds like a bear pit during a spirited PMQ.
Why is applauding considered unacceptable, for example, but loud baying and waving of order papers is apparently OK?
It's not for nothing that the most familiar image of the Speaker is of someone yelling "Order! Order!"
It's about time ALL MPs grew up a bit.0 -
Yes, they actually turn up for work and don not spend their time supping subsidised hooch in the bars. Time some of the lazy troughers caught on and realised they are supposed to be in the chamber more than 30 minutes a week, lazy no good toerags.Carnyx said:
Early days yet. One shouldn't automatically believe what the SNP's enemies in the media and Westminster say. Open minds needed, and this could get very interesting. Consider, for instance, how positive Mr Speaker was about them the other day.AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
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Ishmael Yes well will leave it there0
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puerile rubbish from you as ever , are you really as barking as your posts.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
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Silly position for the SNP to be in. 3 leaders in fact.david_herdson said:
I stand by my comment in the leader: "Some may object that Salmond is not in fact the SNP’s Westminster leader. This is untrue: he is the leader in fact; he is simply not the leader in name".Flightpathl said:Mr Herdson... Salmond is not the SNP leader in Westminster is he? Has he promised to be a back seat driver?
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Scott is not very bright , he can post someone else's tweets but thinking is not his forte.Dair said:
Again you are clinging to straws which don't match reality.Scott_P said:
Yes, who can forget that given the chance of a lifetime to hold the referendum he has dreamed about;scotslass said:An interesting post but perhaps underrates Salmond's extraordinary achievements
- on a date of his choosing
- with his question of choice
- with his preferred electorate
he managed to completely blow it !
Much respect
Until the last few years, Independence has NEVER been a possibility for Scotland. It has never commanded enough public support, being supported by at best 25% of the electorate on a consistent basis.
Thanks to Salmond that is now 45% at least, probably closer to 50% and for people like me who until recently never believed we could possibly see Independence now know it is not only possible but highly likely.
Salmond has worked miracles.0 -
Hard to believe, someone more barking than Dawn, 1st Division , I almost wet my pants, obviously a fake poster to give us a few laughs.AnneJGP said:
I doubt that! Whatever the Scottish people decided in their referendum won't impact greatly on the SNP agenda - why should it? That's just a question of how long they feel that decision should be ostensibly respected.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
I suspect that one thing here is that SNP have been sending their 1st division politicians to Holyrood ever since the Scottish devolved government was set up, whereas (without wishing to insult anyone) my impression is that UK parties have by & large been sending 1st division to Westminster.
So what we probably have in Westminster now is (mostly) SNP 2nd division, or a youth team. And they all arrived in a gang, rather than as ones & twos knowing few others.
(May I add how nice it is to have caught the start of a thread - I usually join after about 250 comments.)0 -
Completely agree.Disraeli said:On Topic...Thank You Mr Herdson for an interesting article. I love commentaries that add a historical perspective to current events.
I think that the alleged rowdiness of the SNP MPs has been greatly exaggerated. They are paragons of good behaviour compared to some of the events that routinely go on in the chamber when it turns into what sounds like a bear pit during a spirited PMQ.
Why is applauding considered unacceptable, for example, but loud baying and waving of order papers is apparently OK?
It's not for nothing that the most familiar image of the Speaker is of someone yelling "Order! Order!"
It's about time ALL MPs grew up a bit.
0 -
Me for one, in the massive Islington North CLP (one of the largest in Britain - several members in every significant street). I posted about my branch discussion the other day; the actual nomination is on Sunday, after speeches from Jeremy Corbyn and me (as "interesting non-London loser").TheWhiteRabbit said:Does PB have any London CLP members who have gone/are going to pick a mayoral nominee?
There is some support for Wolmar as he's a local member and interesting on transport, and some for Abbott as the one who writes most about issues in her 250 words (we agreed we didn't much care about all the personal background stuff). But we were pretty clear that it would come down to Khan or Jowell in the actual vote. I think Khan will probably get it. Haven't decided yet myself.
I'm doing an interview on Sky tomorrow at 1130, incidentally, with Bob Blizzard, on "Why did we lose and what does Labour need to change?"
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I think you are being a little harsh on Liz. What she said in connection with Free Schools (or the NHS) is that she supports what works and has no intention of closing good schools. It is a nuanced and very political reply. It means that she has no ideological opposition to them, but rather a pragmatic one. If they can produce evidence that they are functiong well with good results then that is fine. It also implies the converse, that if they are not functioning well then there is no ideological insistence on keeping them open.The_Apocalypse said:I'm rethinking my support for Kendall. From the Free School endorsement (and there's hardly a huge amount of evidence they are the pancea to all the woes in the education system) to the need to support 'white' working classes (why not just support the working class in general). If I wanted to vote Conservative, I would have done so at the GE.
Labour really have 'meh' choices for Labour leader.
On the White Working Class, I think that she has been over interpreted. It is a common usage on here for example and does not mean the writer is racist. There is a need to help this rather alienated part of society enjoy the same fruits as the rest of society. Supporting this group does not mean penalising another. This is not a zero sum game. Helping alienated Muslims join the mainstream in Britain is an equally worthwhile aim.
From her speech yesterday in Leicester it is clear that she wants opportunity and aspiration for everybody:
"So many of the opportunities I’ve enjoyed and the chances I’ve been able to take, I owe to our party and to the brilliant and visionary people who have gone before me. They understood that fulfilling your potential should never be dependent on where you’re born, what your parents did, your gender, sexuality or the colour of skin. We must end the scourge of illiteracy and innumeracy, broaden the horizons of our young people and give everyone a better chance in life. Under my leadership, Labour will do just that."
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Mr. Palmer, does Khan's proposal for ethnic quotas in the workplace not concern you?0
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Fact that you are one of the few sensible people does not detract at all from Calum being correct. The right wing nutters on here constantly deride SNP and Scotland from sheer nastiness and ignorance. So at times it is hard to tell if you are dealing with someone who is actually interested.ydoethur said:
Calum - can we leave the gratuitous insults out? I was genuinely asking for information and was curious to know who they were or what they had done (thank you for the said information).calum said:
A neat summary of the 59 Scottish MPs backgrounds, not quite the marauding bunch of benefit junkies you were probably expecting. Apologies I don't think any of them have been to Oxbridge:ydoethur said:One thought that does occur to me about the SNP MPs, building on @AnneJGP's point - how many, apart from Salmond, have experience of frontline politics before? Have any of the new cohort (so not Robertson etc.) served at Holyrood or Westminster, or are they all new and inexperienced? Many of them must have been selected before this surge came about, possibly fighting what they thought were hopeless seats nobody else wanted to. How might that impact on both the way they see Westminster and how they respond to it?
If anyone has any information I'd be interested to hear it.
https://twitter.com/RobbieDinwoodie/status/600266504744148992/photo/1
As for Oxbridge, my doctorate is from Aberystwyth, and having met several Oxbridge graduates I would back the quality of any other university in the UK ahead of those two. Far too many idiots who seem to have been given degrees on the nod because of their fathers' connections (Miliband, Balls, Hunt, Kaletsky, Waldegrave, Osborne...) while I had a gruelling two-hour viva where I was ruthlessly probed on every typing error.
Making such remarks just makes you look petty.
Finally, I would point out I am Welsh, and Welsh-speaking Welsh at that, not English. Is insulting those people you keep talking about wanting to make common cause with a really good idea? Just a thought.0 -
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
What the bloody hell?Carnyx said:Just come across this tweet on Wings' feed:
twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/604655050552545280/photo/1
One does rather wonder about the implications for tactical voting, and whether those urging voting for Tories or LDs will be disciplined. And at the futility of going to the trouble of writing a legalistic letter accusing someone of supporting a non-existent organization.0 -
Are all the loonies on here tonightperdix said:
If FFA is achieved as a fair and equitable arrangement for the English, Scotland would go bust.Dair said:
Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.0 -
Mr. G, I haven't seen Mr. Loony on so far today.0
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Thanks for the reply.foxinsoxuk said:I think you are being a little harsh on Liz. What she said in connection with Free Schools (or the NHS) is that she supports what works and has no intention of closing good schools. It is a nuanced and very political reply. It means that she has no ideological opposition to them, but rather a pragmatic one. If they can produce evidence that they are functiong well with good results then that is fine. It also implies the converse, that if they are not functioning well then there is no ideological insistence on keeping them open.
On the White Working Class, I think that she has been over interpreted. It is a common usage on here for example and does not mean the writer is racist. There is a need to help this rather alienated part of society enjoy the same fruits as the rest of society. Supporting this group does not mean penalising another. This is not a zero sum game. Helping alienated Muslims join the mainstream in Britain is an equally worthwhile aim.
From her speech yesterday in Leicester it is clear that she wants opportunity and aspiration for everybody:
"So many of the opportunities I’ve enjoyed and the chances I’ve been able to take, I owe to our party and to the brilliant and visionary people who have gone before me. They understood that fulfilling your potential should never be dependent on where you’re born, what your parents did, your gender, sexuality or the colour of skin. We must end the scourge of illiteracy and innumeracy, broaden the horizons of our young people and give everyone a better chance in life. Under my leadership, Labour will do just that."
On Free Schools, I didn't know that was what she specifically said. From what I'd heard her support for Free Schools was Govesque - as in an ideological commitment to them, and belief they are the 'saviour', of the education system. If she'll keep open the good ones (if they arise), and close down the poor ones, then I think that's reasonable.
I'm also happy to see what she said in the extract you posted - it was her saying things like that, that was the main reason why I supported her. Can I ask, why specifically White working class people are 'alienated'? I've always seen it, that many of the working classes in general feel quite alienated from society.0 -
Careful everyone, malcolm has become self-aware.malcolmg said:
Are all the loonies on here tonightperdix said:
If FFA is achieved as a fair and equitable arrangement for the English, Scotland would go bust.Dair said:
Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.
0 -
With what again as your currency?malcolmg said:
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Palmer, does Khan's proposal for ethnic quotas in the workplace not concern you?
It's a lie down dead approach. He was on PB when it was incorrectly announced that Broxtowe was to be an all women shortlist. His response was pathetic. It was of the kind "its a shame, im disappointed but good luck to whoever they choose".Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Palmer, does Khan's proposal for ethnic quotas in the workplace not concern you?
This happened to be an error as we now know, Broxtowe was not to be an AWS. But what is shocking was how quickly he accepted that he was being actively discriminated . Him, NP, was being told that because of his sexual characteristics, that he would not be allowed to stand in a seat he lost by the slimmest of margins only a few years before, and the seat that the good people of his constituency had repeatedly voted to represent them in Parliament.
If a man is so spineless that he refuses to stand up for himself when he is being so clearly wronged, how can we have confidence to stand up for others who are being discriminated against?0 -
The millstone.Flightpathl said:
With what again as your currency?malcolmg said:
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
Are all the loonies on here tonightperdix said:
If FFA is achieved as a fair and equitable arrangement for the English, Scotland would go bust.Dair said:
Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.
MD , he is rather sensibleMorris_Dancer said:Mr. G, I haven't seen Mr. Loony on so far today.
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With whatever currency we chooseFlightpathl said:
With what again as your currency?malcolmg said:
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0 -
George Eaton in the New Statesman thinks there's a terrible conspiracy at work to cheat Labour of the next election by basing the new constituencies on electorates rather than population.
Unfortunately for George, he doesn't seem to know that the Boundary Commission has always based its reviews on electorates rather than population.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/how-tories-are-trying-make-it-impossible-labour-win-again0 -
Too far Rob, you will have me crying soonRobD said:
Careful everyone, malcolm has become self-aware.malcolmg said:
Are all the loonies on here tonightperdix said:
If FFA is achieved as a fair and equitable arrangement for the English, Scotland would go bust.Dair said:
Have no mistake, short of Independence, the SNP want FFA under a fair and equitable Fiscal Framework.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
However they won't push it and won't demand it because if it is delivered they will have no option but to delay the Second Referendum. Of course the positive is that after 10 years of FFA and a much higher GDP per capita by then, the Second Referendum will be a stooshie.0 -
Always glad to spread joy & happiness. I feel almost as honoured as if I'd been insulted by SeanT.malcolmg said:
Hard to believe, someone more barking than Dawn, 1st Division , I almost wet my pants, obviously a fake poster to give us a few laughs.AnneJGP said:
I doubt that! Whatever the Scottish people decided in their referendum won't impact greatly on the SNP agenda - why should it? That's just a question of how long they feel that decision should be ostensibly respected.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
I suspect that one thing here is that SNP have been sending their 1st division politicians to Holyrood ever since the Scottish devolved government was set up, whereas (without wishing to insult anyone) my impression is that UK parties have by & large been sending 1st division to Westminster.
So what we probably have in Westminster now is (mostly) SNP 2nd division, or a youth team. And they all arrived in a gang, rather than as ones & twos knowing few others.
(May I add how nice it is to have caught the start of a thread - I usually join after about 250 comments.)
(Who's Dawn?)
0 -
Flightpathl said:
I entirely agree with you that a minister needs to hold her (or his) own against "pointed heckling", but I think that mindless baying from members who have perhaps taken rather too much advantage of the subsidised HofC bars before entering the chamber is a complete turn off to the general public when they see it on TV. It just reinforces their already dismal view of politicians.Disraeli said:snipped quote
If I may say so I think you are being a tiny bit po faced about things like PMQs. A minister or mp needs to command the house and part of that is earning respect as well as being able to survive pointed heckling..0 -
Since you said whatever and not whoever's then I am afraid your answer such as it is, is meaningless. It's not even clevermalcolmg said:
With whatever currency we chooseFlightpathl said:
With what again as your currency?malcolmg said:
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.
0 -
Scotland will likely get FFA eventually for now income tax powers and control over most domestic policy will suffice0
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AWS are a bad idea, and unpopular with voters.notme said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Palmer, does Khan's proposal for ethnic quotas in the workplace not concern you?
It's a lie down dead approach. He was on PB when it was incorrectly announced that Broxtowe was to be an all women shortlist. His response was pathetic. It was of the kind "its a shame, im disappointed but good luck to whoever they choose".Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Palmer, does Khan's proposal for ethnic quotas in the workplace not concern you?
This happened to be an error as we now know, Broxtowe was not to be an AWS. But what is shocking was how quickly he accepted that he was being actively discriminated . Him, NP, was being told that because of his sexual characteristics, that he would not be allowed to stand in a seat he lost by the slimmest of margins only a few years before, and the seat that the good people of his constituency had repeatedly voted to represent them in Parliament.
If a man is so spineless that he refuses to stand up for himself when he is being so clearly wronged, how can we have confidence to stand up for others who are being discriminated against?
But, never interrupt your opponents when they're making a mistake.0 -
Stark Dawning , or as I call him tete navetAnneJGP said:
Always glad to spread joy & happiness. I feel almost as honoured as if I'd been insulted by SeanT.malcolmg said:
Hard to believe, someone more barking than Dawn, 1st Division , I almost wet my pants, obviously a fake poster to give us a few laughs.AnneJGP said:
I doubt that! Whatever the Scottish people decided in their referendum won't impact greatly on the SNP agenda - why should it? That's just a question of how long they feel that decision should be ostensibly respected.Stark_Dawning said:
Very true. This childish showing off by the SNP can only benefit Labour. The Scots will look on, see that a Labour pact with these clowns is unworkable, and conclude that only by restoring Labour in Scotland can they ever be rid of the Tories. (The independence lark is off the table for at least half a century. Dave's charm offensive on Sturgeon will make sure of that.)AnneJGP said:I guess it's just as well that SNP didn't manage to put Labour into government. Now that the aim of maximum disruption is becoming clear, their 'support' would have been of the 'who needs enemies' kind. Mr Miliband dodged a bullet, I feel.
I suspect that one thing here is that SNP have been sending their 1st division politicians to Holyrood ever since the Scottish devolved government was set up, whereas (without wishing to insult anyone) my impression is that UK parties have by & large been sending 1st division to Westminster.
So what we probably have in Westminster now is (mostly) SNP 2nd division, or a youth team. And they all arrived in a gang, rather than as ones & twos knowing few others.
(May I add how nice it is to have caught the start of a thread - I usually join after about 250 comments.)
(Who's Dawn?)0 -
just honest , which I know you boys find hard to understand.Flightpathl said:
Since you said whatever and not whoever's then I am afraid your answer such as it is, is meaningless. It's not even clevermalcolmg said:
With whatever currency we chooseFlightpathl said:
With what again as your currency?malcolmg said:
Doh, partial power on roadsigns will be seen as the slap in the face it is, Cameron is playing a blinder with the toerags he is putting in charge of Scottish affairs. SNP just need to wipe the floor next year and get ready for next referendum, popular in both Holyrood and Westminster.williamglenn said:
The SNP aren't asking for and don't want FFA before 2017. I fail to see how the Tories are playing into their hands at this point.Dair said:
In the meantime the SNP only have to remain popular long enough to get the Second Referendum through in 2017 and hope the Tories refuse to deliver FFA until then. Currently they are right on schedule for that and the Tories are playing right into their hands.0
