If you are going to topple a prime minister, then it is usually for the best to perform the operation ruthlessly and at speed. [But] Labour’s convulsions about whether and how to navigate to a post-Starmer world will be extremely protracted and highly perilous.
One danger is that the conflict in the Middle East delivers an economic shock and a new anti-Labour legend is born that the party wrecked people’s standard of living because its members were too busy feuding with each other to govern.
One blunder was made by Sir Keir’s team when they sent him out to make a “fightback” speech that was devoid of any inspirational content. The next miscalculation was made by Mr Streeting who wrongly assumed that Sir Keir would fold under the weight of the demands to quit. And so all eyes now turn northwards to Andy Burnham, the messiah of Manchester. Fighting a byelection is a high-risk, high-reward gamble. If it comes off, his march on the leadership may start to look irresistible. “I think Andy is on his way,” says one cabinet member who has fought fiercely to keep Sir Keir at Number 10. Mr Burnham will be running on the unofficial slogan: Vote Labour. Get Starmer Out.
Listening to Labour people, I hear many of them say that Sir Keir is circling the plughole and the ideal outcome will be to have a new leader in place in time for the party conference in September. Maybe just another four months of toil and trouble to go then – all going to plan. If it be done, it will be done agonisingly slowly.
Personally I still think the logic, if he wins the by-election convincingly, points to a rapid coronation in the summer.
I agree. If he wins the by election, I will be very surprised if anyone else can get enough nominations to stand against him and I don't think Starmer, who doesn't need nominations, will because he would be humiliated. So, it all turns on the by election.
IMO if Reform win the by election they become favourites to run the next government. If they don't, Labour do.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
If you are going to topple a prime minister, then it is usually for the best to perform the operation ruthlessly and at speed. [But] Labour’s convulsions about whether and how to navigate to a post-Starmer world will be extremely protracted and highly perilous.
One danger is that the conflict in the Middle East delivers an economic shock and a new anti-Labour legend is born that the party wrecked people’s standard of living because its members were too busy feuding with each other to govern.
One blunder was made by Sir Keir’s team when they sent him out to make a “fightback” speech that was devoid of any inspirational content. The next miscalculation was made by Mr Streeting who wrongly assumed that Sir Keir would fold under the weight of the demands to quit. And so all eyes now turn northwards to Andy Burnham, the messiah of Manchester. Fighting a byelection is a high-risk, high-reward gamble. If it comes off, his march on the leadership may start to look irresistible. “I think Andy is on his way,” says one cabinet member who has fought fiercely to keep Sir Keir at Number 10. Mr Burnham will be running on the unofficial slogan: Vote Labour. Get Starmer Out.
Listening to Labour people, I hear many of them say that Sir Keir is circling the plughole and the ideal outcome will be to have a new leader in place in time for the party conference in September. Maybe just another four months of toil and trouble to go then – all going to plan. If it be done, it will be done agonisingly slowly.
Personally I still think the logic, if he wins the by-election convincingly, points to a rapid coronation in the summer.
I agree. If he wins the by election, I will be very surprised if anyone else can get enough nominations to stand against him and I don't think Starmer, who doesn't need nominations, will because he would be humiliated. So, it all turns on the by election.
IMO if Reform win the by election they become favourites to run the next government. If they don't, Labour do.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
And what is best for the Greens ?
If Burnham becomes Labour leader many of the Green switchers from Labour may well be tempted to come back.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
There's been a large Ukrainian attack on Moscow region. There's video of an oil pumping station on fire, but I'm not sure about the other claimed targets yet.
"Reported targets included the sanctioned Angstrem microelectronics plant, Elma technology park, a Transneft facility in Zelenograd, Solnechnogorskaya fuel station, Raduga missile plant in Dubna and Sheremetyevo Airport, where drone debris fell on a runway."
Last night there was also a major attack on a Russian position on the Kinburn spit and Belbek airbase in Crimea was also targeted. The scale of Ukraine's long-range attacks on Russia is increasing.
If you are going to topple a prime minister, then it is usually for the best to perform the operation ruthlessly and at speed. [But] Labour’s convulsions about whether and how to navigate to a post-Starmer world will be extremely protracted and highly perilous.
One danger is that the conflict in the Middle East delivers an economic shock and a new anti-Labour legend is born that the party wrecked people’s standard of living because its members were too busy feuding with each other to govern.
One blunder was made by Sir Keir’s team when they sent him out to make a “fightback” speech that was devoid of any inspirational content. The next miscalculation was made by Mr Streeting who wrongly assumed that Sir Keir would fold under the weight of the demands to quit. And so all eyes now turn northwards to Andy Burnham, the messiah of Manchester. Fighting a byelection is a high-risk, high-reward gamble. If it comes off, his march on the leadership may start to look irresistible. “I think Andy is on his way,” says one cabinet member who has fought fiercely to keep Sir Keir at Number 10. Mr Burnham will be running on the unofficial slogan: Vote Labour. Get Starmer Out.
Listening to Labour people, I hear many of them say that Sir Keir is circling the plughole and the ideal outcome will be to have a new leader in place in time for the party conference in September. Maybe just another four months of toil and trouble to go then – all going to plan. If it be done, it will be done agonisingly slowly.
Personally I still think the logic, if he wins the by-election convincingly, points to a rapid coronation in the summer.
I agree. If he wins the by election, I will be very surprised if anyone else can get enough nominations to stand against him and I don't think Starmer, who doesn't need nominations, will because he would be humiliated. So, it all turns on the by election.
IMO if Reform win the by election they become favourites to run the next government. If they don't, Labour do.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
Good morning
Watching in awe at the stupidity of all of this and frankly I do not accept the next government will be either reform or labour
We are in the new politics of 5 or even 7 political parties facing the most enormous break down in politics, coinciding with an economic tsunami whilst nobody is accepting the fact there is no money and we are entirely in the control of the bond markets
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's not logical, Lisa. You can think we should rejoin without thinking it's the only thing that matters or that it's a panacea.
Lisa Nandy is the big downside to Burnham. Burnham's still something of an unknown quantity but when you know that she and he are bosom buddies you have to worry that maybe he's being overrated
If you are going to topple a prime minister, then it is usually for the best to perform the operation ruthlessly and at speed. [But] Labour’s convulsions about whether and how to navigate to a post-Starmer world will be extremely protracted and highly perilous.
One danger is that the conflict in the Middle East delivers an economic shock and a new anti-Labour legend is born that the party wrecked people’s standard of living because its members were too busy feuding with each other to govern.
One blunder was made by Sir Keir’s team when they sent him out to make a “fightback” speech that was devoid of any inspirational content. The next miscalculation was made by Mr Streeting who wrongly assumed that Sir Keir would fold under the weight of the demands to quit. And so all eyes now turn northwards to Andy Burnham, the messiah of Manchester. Fighting a byelection is a high-risk, high-reward gamble. If it comes off, his march on the leadership may start to look irresistible. “I think Andy is on his way,” says one cabinet member who has fought fiercely to keep Sir Keir at Number 10. Mr Burnham will be running on the unofficial slogan: Vote Labour. Get Starmer Out.
Listening to Labour people, I hear many of them say that Sir Keir is circling the plughole and the ideal outcome will be to have a new leader in place in time for the party conference in September. Maybe just another four months of toil and trouble to go then – all going to plan. If it be done, it will be done agonisingly slowly.
Personally I still think the logic, if he wins the by-election convincingly, points to a rapid coronation in the summer.
I agree. If he wins the by election, I will be very surprised if anyone else can get enough nominations to stand against him and I don't think Starmer, who doesn't need nominations, will because he would be humiliated. So, it all turns on the by election.
IMO if Reform win the by election they become favourites to run the next government. If they don't, Labour do.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
Labour are the opposition, Reform are the enemy.
Not all Conservatives have recognised that. Some because they see Reform as what the Conservatives should get, others because they're fools.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's not logical, Lisa. You can think we should rejoin without thinking it's the only thing that matters or that it's a panacea.
Lisa Nandy is the big downside to Burnham. Burnham's still something of an unknown quantity but when you know that she and he are bosom buddies you have to worry that maybe he's being overrated
You do not understand the politics in this
Lisa Nandy lost 24 of the 25 seats in her constituency to reform last week and Streeting even suggesting re joining is toxic to Burnham and Nandy and other labour canvassers fighting to get Burnham elected
“No, I do have the numbers, but I’m not going to challenge now when I am the only runner, I am going to wait until my biggest rival is able to run, and then I will challenge”
If you are going to topple a prime minister, then it is usually for the best to perform the operation ruthlessly and at speed. [But] Labour’s convulsions about whether and how to navigate to a post-Starmer world will be extremely protracted and highly perilous.
One danger is that the conflict in the Middle East delivers an economic shock and a new anti-Labour legend is born that the party wrecked people’s standard of living because its members were too busy feuding with each other to govern.
One blunder was made by Sir Keir’s team when they sent him out to make a “fightback” speech that was devoid of any inspirational content. The next miscalculation was made by Mr Streeting who wrongly assumed that Sir Keir would fold under the weight of the demands to quit. And so all eyes now turn northwards to Andy Burnham, the messiah of Manchester. Fighting a byelection is a high-risk, high-reward gamble. If it comes off, his march on the leadership may start to look irresistible. “I think Andy is on his way,” says one cabinet member who has fought fiercely to keep Sir Keir at Number 10. Mr Burnham will be running on the unofficial slogan: Vote Labour. Get Starmer Out.
Listening to Labour people, I hear many of them say that Sir Keir is circling the plughole and the ideal outcome will be to have a new leader in place in time for the party conference in September. Maybe just another four months of toil and trouble to go then – all going to plan. If it be done, it will be done agonisingly slowly.
Personally I still think the logic, if he wins the by-election convincingly, points to a rapid coronation in the summer.
I agree. If he wins the by election, I will be very surprised if anyone else can get enough nominations to stand against him and I don't think Starmer, who doesn't need nominations, will because he would be humiliated. So, it all turns on the by election.
IMO if Reform win the by election they become favourites to run the next government. If they don't, Labour do.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
Good morning
Watching in awe at the stupidity of all of this and frankly I do not accept the next government will be either reform or labour
We are in the new politics of 5 or even 7 political parties facing the most enormous break down in politics, coinciding with an economic tsunami whilst nobody is accepting the fact there is no money and we are entirely in the control of the bond markets
Agree about stupidity, but someone is going to lead the next government, however rainbow the configuration. SFAICS only Lab, Ref and Tory are candidates for this unenviable position. Framing the contest as Lab v Reform, as this by election does, might marginalise the Tories.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
I think this is broadly correct - I guess we can enjoy the dark humour of the whole thing being inverted until we get a second referendum.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
He was extremely drunk. Probably too drunk to make up lies
However I’ve slightly misrepresented what he said, on reflection. He actually said “four grand LAST month” - implying that his income varies? And when he said MY company I wonder if he literally meant HIS company - ie he’s the boss
The Guardian has described Tommyfest as a “far right Glastonbury” this morning - and while most of the people there definitely weren’t far right as I understand it, the description is still pretty good. It capture the truly strange mix of people, ages, races, classes. From toothless crackheads to obviously rich City people to cheerful young families to evangelical blacks
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
Is it ? The only person openly claiming that is Nandy, in her strawman argument, which you're picking up and running with.
“No, I do have the numbers, but I’m not going to challenge now when I am the only runner, I am going to wait until my biggest rival is able to run, and then I will challenge”
It’s bollocks
Possibly, though there is a rationale in waiting for Burnham to either lose or damage himself in the by-election. He's Labour's Boris Johnson right now, and no one can comfortably be leader while he's agitating from the side-lines.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
For some the debate on the EU is like the Japanese soldier who kept fighting 29 years after the war, and simply long for something that is past
It is fair to want to open the debate but any decision to re-join requires a manifesto commitment and a majority government
The likely progress will be some associate membership as suggested by Macron and to include Canada
Certainly with reform leading the polls and a pivotal election in a reform area it is not the best time to introduce it into this election
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
I'm guessing we'd be including national insurance.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
Semi-professional
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
“No, I do have the numbers, but I’m not going to challenge now when I am the only runner, I am going to wait until my biggest rival is able to run, and then I will challenge”
“No, I do have the numbers, but I’m not going to challenge now when I am the only runner, I am going to wait until my biggest rival is able to run, and then I will challenge”
It’s bollocks
I am convinced he won’t make it on the ballot.
I would suggest if Burnham wins well the momentum will be with him and it is very likely it will be a coronation
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's not logical, Lisa. You can think we should rejoin without thinking it's the only thing that matters or that it's a panacea.
It's simply rectifying a mistake. Who doesn't rectify a mistake if they are able to?
But it requires a referendum and we've seen how divisive and energy sapping that can be. It can only be done imo when it's clear Rejoin would win easily. Not 52/48 but 65/35. Enough to settle the matter.
It will take time to get there and this is a good thing because it creates distance from the 2016 vote and means that a significant proportion of the electorate will be making the decision fresh rather than being asked the same question again.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
This is a more coherent version of Leon's walkabout impressions.
Mingling in the crowd the Guardian spoke to those who simply said they were there out of curiosity, or out of a vague sense of community with others who felt “silenced”.
“I’ve just come along because something feels wrong in the country,” said a man who identified himself as a small business owner in south London.
Yet new tribes were also growing in number. Some carried flags or wore the emblem of Restore Britain – the party set up by former Reform MP Rupert Lowe. Robinson himself, having previously been linked to Advance UK party, encouraged his supporters to get involved in politics and smiled and said “I’m hearing Restore” as those close to the main stage chanted “Rupert, Rupert”.
But while the usual flags of St George and union jacks flew over the crowd, two others in particular seemed more prominent than ever.
They were the flag of Israel – hoisted by long-term Robinson supporters but also by groups with T-shirts saying things such as “Jews for Tommy” – and the flag of Persia, or pre-revolutionary Iran, with a golden lion and sun at its centre.
“For years I have been trying to warn the British people about the dangers of Islam,” said Kamran Soltani, pushing a bike with photographs of the last Shah of Iran and his exiled son, and who said his own father had been a general in the shah’s army and was executed after the Islamic revolution. Like some British Iranians – including those on what were said to have been eight coaches of Iranians who travelled from Manchester – he had found common cause with Robinson.
Others too were out and prouder than ever in a different way. Explicitly white nationalist groups such as White Vanguard were present with banners that appeared to meet with no opposition from stewards. “End Zionist Occupation of Britain, Stop White Replacement,” said one...
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
Semi-professional
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
Perhaps he should stop drinking? Getting falling over drunk on your own is definitely not a good sign.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
For some the debate on the EU is like the Japanese soldier who kept fighting 29 years after the war, and simply long for something that is past..
So you're saying that the majority of the electorate believing Brexit a mistake is in some way comparable to a WWII fascist fanatic who refused to believe the war was over ?
There's been a large Ukrainian attack on Moscow region. There's video of an oil pumping station on fire, but I'm not sure about the other claimed targets yet.
"Reported targets included the sanctioned Angstrem microelectronics plant, Elma technology park, a Transneft facility in Zelenograd, Solnechnogorskaya fuel station, Raduga missile plant in Dubna and Sheremetyevo Airport, where drone debris fell on a runway."
Last night there was also a major attack on a Russian position on the Kinburn spit and Belbek airbase in Crimea was also targeted. The scale of Ukraine's long-range attacks on Russia is increasing.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
Semi-professional
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
Perhaps he should stop drinking? Getting falling over drunk on your own is definitely not a good sign.
My suspicion is that he was drinking to silence the cognitive dissonance. He definitely didn’t come across as classic far right (actually pretty educated and eloquent behind the beer). I’m sure he wouldn’t typify himself as such. Yet he was attending a rally with definite far right elements and a rally that the government has been desperate to label as “far right”
Yet he still felt a need to come. To protest. To do *something*
Cue: cognitive dissonance. Cue: 16 pints to silence the discordant inner voices
One amusing byproduct of the Labour leadership candidates advocating the UK returning to Europe is that Farage will be forced back onto what is now, for obvious reasons, his least favourite subject: Brexit. Let’s see him forced to defend it in every interview.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
Semi-professional
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
I hope he got back ok. This decent despairing drunk man.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
This is a more coherent version of Leon's walkabout impressions.
Mingling in the crowd the Guardian spoke to those who simply said they were there out of curiosity, or out of a vague sense of community with others who felt “silenced”.
“I’ve just come along because something feels wrong in the country,” said a man who identified himself as a small business owner in south London.
Yet new tribes were also growing in number. Some carried flags or wore the emblem of Restore Britain – the party set up by former Reform MP Rupert Lowe. Robinson himself, having previously been linked to Advance UK party, encouraged his supporters to get involved in politics and smiled and said “I’m hearing Restore” as those close to the main stage chanted “Rupert, Rupert”.
But while the usual flags of St George and union jacks flew over the crowd, two others in particular seemed more prominent than ever.
They were the flag of Israel – hoisted by long-term Robinson supporters but also by groups with T-shirts saying things such as “Jews for Tommy” – and the flag of Persia, or pre-revolutionary Iran, with a golden lion and sun at its centre.
“For years I have been trying to warn the British people about the dangers of Islam,” said Kamran Soltani, pushing a bike with photographs of the last Shah of Iran and his exiled son, and who said his own father had been a general in the shah’s army and was executed after the Islamic revolution. Like some British Iranians – including those on what were said to have been eight coaches of Iranians who travelled from Manchester – he had found common cause with Robinson.
Others too were out and prouder than ever in a different way. Explicitly white nationalist groups such as White Vanguard were present with banners that appeared to meet with no opposition from stewards. “End Zionist Occupation of Britain, Stop White Replacement,” said one...
Is the Tommeh-Eretz Israel non-agression pact the ethno-nationalist version of the horsehoe theory?
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
For some the debate on the EU is like the Japanese soldier who kept fighting 29 years after the war, and simply long for something that is past..
So you're saying that the majority of the electorate believing Brexit a mistake is in some way comparable to a WWII fascist fanatic who refused to believe the war was over ?
A somewhat offensive simile, Big_G.
You know very well that is not what I am saying
We have left the EU and whether or not it was a mistake time moves on, as has the EU, and the only way to rejoin is a winning manifesto commitment
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
It should have been the Tories' position after the narrow referendum result. "Norway for now" would have been both sensible and justifiable, leaving those wanting greater separation to work out what they wanted to do and to advocate and implement any further changes with consensus and in a measured way. The "no deal" hysteria that appeared to take over the Tory party after they were taking down Mrs May was at odds with the arguments they had advanced and commitments many of them had made during the campaign itself, and Johnson's idiotic Brexit has done immense damage to both business and politics.
Conversation I had at Tommy's Rally. After I took a photo, slightly too obviously, of a fairly well-dressed 50-ish guy - clearly drunk - lurching about, as a French girl denounced rapists onstage
Him: "Are you a journalist then?"
Me: "Yes. How did you guess?"
Him: "Coz you're takin photos of me. I'm very drunk."
Me: "I won't use them, I promise."
Him: "S'OK. Dya know why I am here? Coz my best friend is Asian and and and my other friend is black and and and I came down from Manchester alone but but but, eh, I must look degenerate I know that"
Me: "I promise I won't use photos."
Him: "OK alright I - I - I - if my daughter found out i wuz here she wouldn't ever talk to me again but, but, but I can't just sit back and let it happen, they're taking the piss, all these people, on boats, d'you know how much tax I pay?"
Me: "No."
Him: "Four grand a month I've - I have - I earn a lot and - and - and - and if my company ever found out I was here that would be the end of me but you can't just do nothing can you? I've never been to anything like this in my life. Never. But, but, but look around there's no hate here, is there? No hate, we just- just - have to get a grip. They're taking the piss. We don't have any choice."
We shook hands and separated. That rally was largely a cri de coeur from people like him. They are NOT racist, they are NOT filled with hate. They have had enough. Politicians that dismiss this as "mere racism" are insane
lol
What a mug paying all that tax. Assuming true.
£48,000 income tax would put him in the top 0.5% of all income tax payers in Manchester - on about £150k. Wonder what he does, and if he really does have only two friends.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Was Leon speaking to him in a professional capacity ? It just seems like a conversation struck up.
Semi-professional
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
Perhaps he should stop drinking? Getting falling over drunk on your own is definitely not a good sign.
We should just be happy that Sean found a kindred spirit, even if to do so he had to attend a protest march by drunken extremists with too much money and too little sense.
I think Starmer had the right balance currently in terms of his EU reset . It gives something to those pro EU without becoming too divisive for those that voted to Leave .
When you look at polling on whether to rejoin it’s not the headline figure that’s important.
So the figure for rejoin according to YouGov is 55% but that drops to 36% when you caveat that with losing the UKs previous opt outs in terms of Schengen , the Euro and the rebate.
And in terms of government priorities 44% think it’s the wrong priority v 37% who think it should be .
I don’t think there’s an issue with putting it in a future Labour manifesto with the explicit understanding that the terms of re-joining are clearly laid out and agreed beforehand with the EU , something the Leave side failed to do with Brexit.
You can’t find many people more pro EU than me but I think this conversation is for down the road and not now.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
For some the debate on the EU is like the Japanese soldier who kept fighting 29 years after the war, and simply long for something that is past..
So you're saying that the majority of the electorate believing Brexit a mistake is in some way comparable to a WWII fascist fanatic who refused to believe the war was over ?
A somewhat offensive simile, Big_G.
The majority of the electorate believing that British life got a bit shitter after 2016 and being encouraged to draw an inference are not comparable to the Japanese soldier. Desperate remoaner types determined to drag the country back in to their promise land regardless of the costs (or in some particularly troubled peoples' cases, enjoying the costs) can absolutely be compared to him.
New: Lisa Nandy criticises Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting for saying the UK should rejoin the EU
Nandy says Labour should resist “reopening the Brexit wars” and that she finds Streeting’s call to rejoin yesterday “a bit odd”
She tells Sky: “If rejoining the EU is the answer, then essentially what we're saying to people is life was fine in 2015”
That's what resonates with the Labour members, and progressives more broadly.
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
The problem is that it’s a chimera. Whether we are talking about close alignment or even joining the EU, taking such a step might have a long term positive growth impacts (at the cost of other things) but nothing positive will happen quickly. It’s not a transformative policy and they are playing fire if they represent it as one and have no other ideas.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
In the UK there is no settled majority for either fully in or fully out. The sanest step for Labour is to accept we are out but make it clear that we are open to Norway/Swiss options, which gives most of what most EU supporters want and is consistent with the 2016 vote. This should have been Labour's position from 2016 onwards.
For some the debate on the EU is like the Japanese soldier who kept fighting 29 years after the war, and simply long for something that is past..
So you're saying that the majority of the electorate believing Brexit a mistake is in some way comparable to a WWII fascist fanatic who refused to believe the war was over ?
A somewhat offensive simile, Big_G.
You know very well that is not what I am saying
We have left the EU and whether or not it was a mistake time moves on, as has the EU, and the only way to rejoin is a winning manifesto commitment
And the similarity with defeated fascist Japan is ?
Comments
Bathing themselves in blue and gold is the best way of winning their votes.
What is the best result for the Tories? Is it is a zugzwang?
If Burnham becomes Labour leader many of the Green switchers from Labour may well be tempted to come back.
I also find it mildly amusing that some of the young folk most in favour of the EU obviously haven’t seen its latest policies on some of the technology they love; and haven’t thought through whether its rules allow for some of their other policy preferences. I am thinking about state aid and the stability and growth pact (especially as a country on a route to joining the euro).
It’s the same thing as Farage pretending that leaving the EU would fix everything ten years ago.
"Reported targets included the sanctioned Angstrem microelectronics plant, Elma technology park, a Transneft facility in Zelenograd, Solnechnogorskaya fuel station, Raduga missile plant in Dubna and Sheremetyevo Airport, where drone debris fell on a runway."
https://t.me/noel_reports/46444?single
Last night there was also a major attack on a Russian position on the Kinburn spit and Belbek airbase in Crimea was also targeted. The scale of Ukraine's long-range attacks on Russia is increasing.
Watching in awe at the stupidity of all of this and frankly I do not accept the next government will be either reform or labour
We are in the new politics of 5 or even 7 political parties facing the most enormous break down in politics, coinciding with an economic tsunami whilst nobody is accepting the fact there is no money and we are entirely in the control of the bond markets
Not all Conservatives have recognised that. Some because they see Reform as what the Conservatives should get, others because they're fools.
I'm sure Leon, a professional, will have interrogated this.
Lisa Nandy lost 24 of the 25 seats in her constituency to reform last week and Streeting even suggesting re joining is toxic to Burnham and Nandy and other labour canvassers fighting to get Burnham elected
“No, I do have the numbers, but I’m not going to challenge now when I am the only runner, I am going to wait until my biggest rival is able to run, and then I will challenge”
It’s bollocks
However I’ve slightly misrepresented what he said, on reflection. He actually said “four grand LAST month” - implying that his income varies? And when he said MY company I wonder if he literally meant HIS company - ie he’s the boss
The Guardian has described Tommyfest as a “far right Glastonbury” this morning - and while most of the people there definitely weren’t far right as I understand it, the description is still pretty good. It capture the truly strange mix of people, ages, races, classes. From toothless crackheads to obviously rich City people to cheerful young families to evangelical blacks
The only person openly claiming that is Nandy, in her strawman argument, which you're picking up and running with.
It is fair to want to open the debate but any decision to re-join requires a manifesto commitment and a majority government
The likely progress will be some associate membership as suggested by Macron and to include Canada
Certainly with reform leading the polls and a pivotal election in a reform area it is not the best time to introduce it into this election
He started the chat, as I say, by asking if I was a journalist (because I was very obviously taking photos and writing notes). Telling him I mainly knap stone sex toys and journalism is my second job would have confused him. So I said Yes
The conversation was actually a lot longer than that. I’ve condensed it. It was too long - he was in that stage of drunkenness when the drunk throws his arm around you and declares you are best mates forever
Tbh I mainly got a feeling of sadness. He didn’t really want to be there. He was on his own. But his despair at what he perceives is happening to Britain was real
But it requires a referendum and we've seen how divisive and energy sapping that can be. It can only be done imo when it's clear Rejoin would win easily. Not 52/48 but 65/35. Enough to settle the matter.
It will take time to get there and this is a good thing because it creates distance from the 2016 vote and means that a significant proportion of the electorate will be making the decision fresh rather than being asked the same question again.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/16/tommy-robinsons-far-right-glastonbury-a-distinctly-lower-energy-affair
..also present – and as much as some may wish this was not the case – were the politically unaffiliated as well as many families with groups of children.
Mingling in the crowd the Guardian spoke to those who simply said they were there out of curiosity, or out of a vague sense of community with others who felt “silenced”.
“I’ve just come along because something feels wrong in the country,” said a man who identified himself as a small business owner in south London.
Yet new tribes were also growing in number. Some carried flags or wore the emblem of Restore Britain – the party set up by former Reform MP Rupert Lowe. Robinson himself, having previously been linked to Advance UK party, encouraged his supporters to get involved in politics and smiled and said “I’m hearing Restore” as those close to the main stage chanted “Rupert, Rupert”.
But while the usual flags of St George and union jacks flew over the crowd, two others in particular seemed more prominent than ever.
They were the flag of Israel – hoisted by long-term Robinson supporters but also by groups with T-shirts saying things such as “Jews for Tommy” – and the flag of Persia, or pre-revolutionary Iran, with a golden lion and sun at its centre.
“For years I have been trying to warn the British people about the dangers of Islam,” said Kamran Soltani, pushing a bike with photographs of the last Shah of Iran and his exiled son, and who said his own father had been a general in the shah’s army and was executed after the Islamic revolution. Like some British Iranians – including those on what were said to have been eight coaches of Iranians who travelled from Manchester – he had found common cause with Robinson.
Others too were out and prouder than ever in a different way. Explicitly white nationalist groups such as White Vanguard were present with banners that appeared to meet with no opposition from stewards. “End Zionist Occupation of Britain, Stop White Replacement,” said one...
Getting falling over drunk on your own is definitely not a good sign.
A somewhat offensive simile, Big_G.
Yet he still felt a need to come. To protest. To do *something*
Cue: cognitive dissonance. Cue: 16 pints to silence the discordant inner voices
One amusing byproduct of the Labour leadership candidates advocating the UK returning to Europe is that Farage will be forced back onto what is now, for obvious reasons, his least favourite subject: Brexit. Let’s see him forced to defend it in every interview.
We have left the EU and whether or not it was a mistake time moves on, as has the EU, and the only way to rejoin is a winning manifesto commitment
NEW THREAD
When you look at polling on whether to rejoin it’s not the headline figure that’s important.
So the figure for rejoin according to YouGov is 55% but that drops to 36% when you caveat that with losing the UKs previous opt outs in terms of Schengen , the Euro and the rebate.
And in terms of government priorities 44% think it’s the wrong priority v 37% who think it should be .
I don’t think there’s an issue with putting it in a future Labour manifesto with the explicit understanding that the terms of re-joining are clearly laid out and agreed beforehand with the EU , something the Leave side failed to do with Brexit.
You can’t find many people more pro EU than me but I think this conversation is for down the road and not now.