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Smoking kills Reform’s chances? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,028
edited 4:17AM in General
Smoking kills Reform’s chances? – politicalbetting.com

?? 'The puritanical spirit of Oliver Cromwell again stalks the land' I Writes @Nigel_FarageRead Farage's full piece below ?https://t.co/E7ETFrZoY8 pic.twitter.com/JR5zMfDHEP

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,800
    Good morning all. First.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,687
    Hang on, the story is about the generational ban on smoking but the polling is about the ban on smoking in public places.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,146
    tlg86 said:

    Hang on, the story is about the generational ban on smoking but the polling is about the ban on smoking in public places.

    Oops, I forgot to add a poll from 2024, added now.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,168
    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,800
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    So you've been there. In the West Bank they were much more relaxed, if somewhat p*ssed off (and sometimes p*ssed on) by the general antagonism of their neighbours. Reminded me a lot of Northern Ireland.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,687
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hang on, the story is about the generational ban on smoking but the polling is about the ban on smoking in public places.

    Oops, I forgot to add a poll from 2024, added now.
    Thanks. It’s scary how many people want to ban in straight away.

    We should all be grateful to smokers for paying more tax and costing the state less in social care costs.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,146
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hang on, the story is about the generational ban on smoking but the polling is about the ban on smoking in public places.

    Oops, I forgot to add a poll from 2024, added now.
    Thanks. It’s scary how many people want to ban in straight away.

    We should all be grateful to smokers for paying more tax and costing the state less in social care costs.
    Smokers (or more specifically their smoke) aren't very popular.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,146
    Ollie Bearman not looking good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,947
    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,058
    Let's ban vaping whilst we're at it. That's caused me more damage in a few years than passive smoking did in many decades.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,947
    The smoke billowing from Farage is just one element of all that is noxious and toxic he issues forth.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    MarqueeMark said:

    The smoke billowing from Farage is just one element of all that is noxious and toxic he issues forth.

    So long as you don't blow smoke up his fundament!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,004
    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nonetheless, and this is a problem of thinking, developed by the radical left, one cannot, and one should not make an association between Netanyahu psychopathy and Jewish people innocently going about their business in Holders Green, New York or Tel Aviv. They are no more guilty on behalf of Smotrich and Ben Gvir than I am.

    I believe Donald Trump is doing enormous damage to the World order but I wouldn't think those Americans protesting at the No Kings rallies are deserving of retribution simply because they are American. And that is what you are advocating for Jewish people the World over.

    "Golders". I do wish autocorrect would just f*** off!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,947
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Ollie Bearman not looking good.

    No fractures.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,146
    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Ollie Bearman not looking good.

    No fractures.
    Huzzah.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,278
    edited 6:31AM
    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,146
    I love Kimi Antonelli.

    He acknowledges his luck with the safety car, I love that modesty.

    Utter bollocks we've got to wait five weeks for the next grand prix and that there's only one race in the next eight weeks.

    Thanks Bibi and Don.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,741
    Leclerc is I think the best driver in the world right now. He might have won in the McLaren and would be a long old way ahead in the Merc
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,278
    edited 6:50AM
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I love Kimi Antonelli.

    He acknowledges his luck with the safety car, I love that modesty.

    Utter bollocks we've got to wait five weeks for the next grand prix and that there's only one race in the next eight weeks.

    Thanks Bibi and Don.

    Assuming we haven't run out of fuel before May, of course.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,526
    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,800
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Blame the snail for this puritanical attitude that you just can't harm other people without sanction. We should be free to harm anyone we like or dislike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,526
    Battlebus said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Blame the snail for this puritanical attitude that you just can't harm other people without sanction. We should be free to harm anyone we like or dislike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
    They're not harming anyone except themselves, and this is precisely the sort of shameful bilge I'm talking about.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,029
    Part of Nigel's Good Old Days shtick.

    Ignoring the details from the previous conversation about how the Old Days weren't particularly good for a lot of people.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,800
    edited 7:15AM
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Blame the snail for this puritanical attitude that you just can't harm other people without sanction. We should be free to harm anyone we like or dislike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
    They're not harming anyone except themselves, and this is precisely the sort of shameful bilge I'm talking about.
    While acknowledging your belief that only the individual comes to harm, the legal issues of secondary harm have been settled for over a century so the concepts referred to are not new. Blame governments of the last 100 years.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,252
    Mexicanpete said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    The smoke billowing from Farage is just one element of all that is noxious and toxic he issues forth.

    So long as you don't blow smoke up his fundament!
    A traditional reviver for the half drowned I think. Let’s hope the bullfrog’s polling sinks underwater so he requires it.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    ydoethur said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I love Kimi Antonelli.

    He acknowledges his luck with the safety car, I love that modesty.

    Utter bollocks we've got to wait five weeks for the next grand prix and that there's only one race in the next eight weeks.

    Thanks Bibi and Don.

    Assuming we haven't run out of fuel before May, of course.
    They'll love that, they can complete the ruination of F1 as a credible sport, it'll be FULL ON Formula 1 E
  • A_View_From_Cumbria5A_View_From_Cumbria5 Posts: 815
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    I have the same problem as yourself. I have never smoked, never desired to smoke, find the smell nauseating and yet feel, morally I ought to smoke simply because of the people who tell me I ought not to.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,723
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I love Kimi Antonelli.

    He acknowledges his luck with the safety car, I love that modesty.

    Utter bollocks we've got to wait five weeks for the next grand prix and that there's only one race in the next eight weeks.

    Thanks Bibi and Don.

    Good morning, everyone.

    McLaren and Ferrari will be hoping to close up. It'll also be interesting to see what impact the engine testing change has (I'm guessing minimal, as per the flexi-wing of last year).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,029
    Curious thing about that 2024 polling- if you take Leave voters as a proxy for Farage voters now, even they are mostly content with some sort of ban.

    Thinking back to relatives who smoked, most of them wished they had never taken the habit up. (Which, illogical as it otherwise is, is why a rolling ban by age is the right way to do this.)
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    On Topic

    Personally i find VAPING far more intrusive and offensive than smoking traditional cigarettes and apparently equally dangerous to health of the smoker and passively.

    Sitting behind a car full of vape smoke and kids at traffic lights particulary dangerous.

    From a political perspection of current trends continue along the Tory toxification to the Right of Reform, we'll no doubt see Kemi as "Fagash Lil" tweeting with a roll up, B+H and Tory Blueberry Blue Vape some time later today.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,278
    edited 7:26AM
    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families and for a certain amount of double counting (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,723
    Alpine and Red Bull are tied on points. Haas are still 4th.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,809
    Apologies if I am late to the party with this, but Sky has done some analysis of the fight for the right:

    "Reform is ahead in 316 seats across Britain, compared to just 93 constituencies where the Conservatives are the leading right-wing party.

    A further 223 seats are considered too close to call, meaning a divided right-wing vote currently looks likely."

    The full article is worth a read.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,809
    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
    As well as the direct casualties of the IDF in Gaza there has to be added the indirect casualties caused by the destruction of the health, water, sewage and energy systems there, which probably at least matches the direct casualties. It also continues to kill despite the "ceasefire" too.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,526
    Battlebus said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Blame the snail for this puritanical attitude that you just can't harm other people without sanction. We should be free to harm anyone we like or dislike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
    They're not harming anyone except themselves, and this is precisely the sort of shameful bilge I'm talking about.
    While acknowledging your belief that only the individual comes to harm, the legal issues of secondary harm have been settled for over a century so the concepts referred to are not new. Blame governments of the last 100 years.
    I do blame them. We have a great many deeply demoralised, confused, rather sad people, growing ever more dependent on and biddable toward the state. That's socialism - it's a feature not a bug.

    I think the petty authoritarianism that has taken root is one of the things that annoys me most though. The belief that we can and should shiver through winter and shut down our economy to 'save the world' is extraordinarily stupid, but at its heart there is a sort of misguided nobility with faint echoes of the Victorian evangelical movement. Wanting to ban the simple pleasures of others is a concept with no redeeming qualities whatever.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families and for a certain amount of double counting (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
    Surely once a particular Rubicon is crossed they all go to Hell anyway. Stalin, Hitler, PolPot, Putin, Netanyahu, Trump and Tony Blair.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,784
    Morning all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,278
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
    As well as the direct casualties of the IDF in Gaza there has to be added the indirect casualties caused by the destruction of the health, water, sewage and energy systems there, which probably at least matches the direct casualties. It also continues to kill despite the "ceasefire" too.
    Quite possibly, but that isn't what was being claimed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    Brixian59 said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

    A Kenny Burns challenge?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,809
    The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there. It is hard now to conceive how we tolerated smoking in the past, even in hospital staff break rooms when I qualified.

    I expect that the smoking ban did damage pubs when it came in, but that doesn't mean that those customers will come back if it is rescinded.

  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

    A Kenny Burns challenge?
    Well !

    https://x.com/1968tv/status/2036702247338274924?s=61
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
    As well as the direct casualties of the IDF in Gaza there has to be added the indirect casualties caused by the destruction of the health, water, sewage and energy systems there, which probably at least matches the direct casualties. It also continues to kill despite the "ceasefire" too.
    Quite possibly, but that isn't what was being claimed.
    It is exactly what I am claiming. You might be correct to dispute my ( made up) numbers but in the grand scheme of the last 30 years Bibi's casualty list is horrendous. Bear in mind also that he has had his murderous intentions curtailed by threats of withheld cash and munitions from American Presidents up until the Mango Mussolini.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,394
    Taz said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

    A Kenny Burns challenge?
    Well !

    https://x.com/1968tv/status/2036702247338274924?s=61
    That was the best evah blues strip!
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,753
    Brixian59 said:

    On Topic

    Personally i find VAPING far more intrusive and offensive than smoking traditional cigarettes and apparently equally dangerous to health of the smoker and passively.

    Sitting behind a car full of vape smoke and kids at traffic lights particulary dangerous.

    From a political perspection of current trends continue along the Tory toxification to the Right of Reform, we'll no doubt see Kemi as "Fagash Lil" tweeting with a roll up, B+H and Tory Blueberry Blue Vape some time later today.

    Your Kemi fantasies are rather niche
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    Mexicanpete said:

    Taz said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

    A Kenny Burns challenge?
    Well !

    https://x.com/1968tv/status/2036702247338274924?s=61
    That was the best evah blues strip!
    Oh most definitely.

    I’ll always love the Belgian flag version too.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,442
    Yes I’m stupid I still have the odd cigarette outside and do vape !

    I wish I had never touched a cigarette and all attempts to completely stop have failed miserably ! So in terms of the generational ban I support that and not sure why Farage picked this fight .

    I certainly wouldn’t support though a ban on smoking outside in pubs, restaurants and cafes which Labour had suggested before the hospitality industry pressure to drop that .



  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,261
    Almost for the the first time ever I agree Farage about the generational smoking ban. Not because it's Cromwellian but because it's a nonsense. You either ban tobacco for all age groups - vaping is your safer alternative for a nicotine addiction - or you allow people of all ages to carry on killing themselves.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,707
    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    The point you miss is that Netanyahu wants to ferment anti semitism around the diaspora because it encourages Jews to move to Israel which turns his greater Israel project into a reality. They were offering large discounts to Jews who would move into the illegally occupied territories with guarantees if the land was ever taken back and given to the rightful owners they would be fully compensated.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Do you support the Greens’ drug legalisation policy?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Battlebus said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Blame the snail for this puritanical attitude that you just can't harm other people without sanction. We should be free to harm anyone we like or dislike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
    They're not harming anyone except themselves, and this is precisely the sort of shameful bilge I'm talking about.
    The company making the cigarettes is harming others, however.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,502
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the l leftl same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I agree that Bibi over the last 30 years has a body count heading into the lower numbers of Hitler territory.

    Nobody despises Netanyahu more than I do, but more than 7 million people, including around 1.8 million non-Jewish people, died in the Holocaust, not counting other acts of genocide against Poles, Russians and the dead of the occupied countries of Western Europe.

    Netanyahu is a Tristram, but he is not that much of a Tristram. Comparing him to Hitler just gives Netanyahu an undeserved moral high ground.

    Horthy or Mussolini would be a better parallel, especially Horthy.
    I don't believe one should consider gradations of unmitigated evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bibi and Trump fit the frame, and Trump's body count is barely out of the traps.

    Hitler was quite open about who he killed and his regime was rather good at recording the details. Bibi, not so much.

    Many of Bibi's casualties are buried under rubble never to be found in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere, and others have been removed by covert activity across the World. I would be surprised if Bibi's body count doesn't reach 7 figures. I would suggest the 80,000 Gazan casualties is an enormous under estimation. And who would believe Hamas metrics?
    You may suggest that but it is extremely unlikely you are correct. 80,000 dead is almost certainly the upper limit if only because Hamas would count every 'possible' in their figure to make Israel look worse. Even if we reduce it by a third, as people who may have been displaced and not reunited with their families (again, likely an upper limit for that number) the figures are bad enough, but it's comparable to the number who died in the Blitz and far lower than the numbers who died in Dresden, Cologne, Pforzheim and Hamburg.

    Just to make some other obvious points Netanyahu has not stolen the possessions of dead Palestinians and sold them to line his own pocket, he hasn't cut their hair off to make blankets, and he hasn't had the fat used from cremating them used to make soap (the soap issued to Poles had 42% human fat content). These were all things done on the orders of Hitler.

    Netanyahu is bad but not that bad (heck, even Putin isn't that bad although I wouldn't go bail for Xi). Don't give him alibis.
    As well as the direct casualties of the IDF in Gaza there has to be added the indirect casualties caused by the destruction of the health, water, sewage and energy systems there, which probably at least matches the direct casualties. It also continues to kill despite the "ceasefire" too.
    Quite possibly, but that isn't what was being claimed.
    Israel has accepted the number of Gazans reported as killed (70,000) was broadly correct. Nonetheless, direct comparison with the Holocaust is obtuse as well as offensive.

    IDF believes 70,000 Gazans killed in war, as claimed by Hamas; civilian-combatant ratio unclear
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-by-hamas/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    I have the same problem as yourself. I have never smoked, never desired to smoke, find the smell nauseating and yet feel, morally I ought to smoke simply because of the people who tell me I ought not to.
    Is the problem being too contrarian for your own good?
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    Roger said:



    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    The point you miss is that Netanyahu wants to ferment anti semitism around the diaspora because it encourages Jews to move to Israel which turns his greater Israel project into a reality. They were offering large discounts to Jews who would move into the illegally occupied territories with guarantees if the land was ever taken back and given to the rightful owners they would be fully compensated.
    Well there’s the talk of leasing the Greek islands close to Turkey and occupying land in Lebanon south of the Litani river.

    Greater Israel and war without end is on.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    Brixian59 said:

    On Topic

    Personally i find VAPING far more intrusive and offensive than smoking traditional cigarettes and apparently equally dangerous to health of the smoker and passively.

    Sitting behind a car full of vape smoke and kids at traffic lights particulary dangerous.

    From a political perspection of current trends continue along the Tory toxification to the Right of Reform, we'll no doubt see Kemi as "Fagash Lil" tweeting with a roll up, B+H and Tory Blueberry Blue Vape some time later today.

    Vaping is not as dangerous as smoking.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,723
    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    Thanks for sharing, 'twas an interesting read.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    edited 8:09AM
    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The contrast between the idiot Trump and the approach of Bibi is stark.

    Trump is high on his own supply. He’s failed and will forever be defined by this disaster.

    It’s an interesting article.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 2,099
    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    Risky for Farage given even most Reform voters back the ban on this polling.

    Even if it is most LDs who are most in favour of the rather unliberal smoking ban
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,331
    bondegezou said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't smoke, and I could probably count the cigarettes and cigars I've smoked using my digits.

    However, I cannot stand the authoritarian, puritanical attitude about this within our population. It's the same as the people wanting eternal lockdown. It makes me thoroughly ashamed to be British.

    Do you support the Greens’ drug legalisation policy?
    Yes. It is sane liberalism.

    It is the rest of their agenda that it batshit crazy.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    The article is not complimentary about Trump and points out his failure to plan
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    SandyRentool said:

    Apologies if I am late to the party with this, but Sky has done some analysis of the fight for the right:

    "Reform is ahead in 316 seats across Britain, compared to just 93 constituencies where the Conservatives are the leading right-wing party.

    A further 223 seats are considered too close to call, meaning a divided right-wing vote currently looks likely."

    The full article is worth a read.

    So if the Conservatives were able to come ahead of Reform in those 223 seats plus the 93 they are already ahead in they could match the 316 seats Reform lead in and offer the best chance of at least matching them on seats too
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    edited 8:14AM
    Taz said:

    Roger said:



    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    The point you miss is that Netanyahu wants to ferment anti semitism around the diaspora because it encourages Jews to move to Israel which turns his greater Israel project into a reality. They were offering large discounts to Jews who would move into the illegally occupied territories with guarantees if the land was ever taken back and given to the rightful owners they would be fully compensated.
    Well there’s the talk of leasing the Greek islands close to Turkey and occupying land in Lebanon south of the Litani river.

    Greater Israel and war without end is on.
    I had not previously heard of the plan to lease Greek islands. Wow.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,670
    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    The whole point of the article is Trump’s lack of planning, so I don’t see how it’s sanewashing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    Well without a ground invasion it is unlikely to be able to remove the Iranian regime
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,707
    Quite an apocalyptic vsion from the excellent Jeremy Bowen this morning on radio 4. Well worth listening to. He's already mentioning Suez. This is not a done deal. Quite chilling.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Given the surge of the far right in Europe, who could easily turn on Jews again as much as they have Muslims if the mood took them, a somewhat strange post.

    Israel has also successfully defended itself militarily against its neighbours in numerous wars even without direct US support and almost certainly has nukes
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    BlancheLivermore said:

    Brixian59 said:

    On Topic

    Personally i find VAPING far more intrusive and offensive than smoking traditional cigarettes and apparently equally dangerous to health of the smoker and passively.

    Sitting behind a car full of vape smoke and kids at traffic lights particulary dangerous.

    From a political perspection of current trends continue along the Tory toxification to the Right of Reform, we'll no doubt see Kemi as "Fagash Lil" tweeting with a roll up, B+H and Tory Blueberry Blue Vape some time later today.

    Your Kemi fantasies are rather niche
    She's a standing joke

    Easy target
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,883
    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler .

    Are you sure about that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    Roger said:

    Quite an apocalyptic vsion from the excellent Jeremy Bowen this morning on radio 4. Well worth listening to. He's already mentioning Suez. This is not a done deal. Quite chilling.

    His comparison with China does not hold though as China has no real interest in the Middle East as the US did in overtaking the UK and French influence there
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,809
    HYUFD said:

    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    Well without a ground invasion it is unlikely to be able to remove the Iranian regime
    How do you envisage a ground invasion removing the Iranian regime?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Mexicanpete said:

    Taz said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    Good morning

    @brendan16 keeps repeating the same demand to assassinate Netanyahu and bomb Tel Aviv completely ignoring that is what the US and Israel have done in Iran, and actually removed their leader and othes but today the regime is as strong as ever

    Indeed there is no certainty that even with elections Israel would not continue it's current trajectory
    I don't like the sound of this @brendan16 chap from your post!
    I think the old git has played the wrong man completely on this occasion let alone the ball.

    Apologies Brendan whereever you are.

    A Kenny Burns challenge?
    Well !

    https://x.com/1968tv/status/2036702247338274924?s=61
    That was the best evah blues strip!
    Best by far...

    I wonder what Brian Moore would have said about Steve Ncmahon career ending tackle on Kevan Broadhurst when Broady was actually off the pitch.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    bondegezou said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:



    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    The point you miss is that Netanyahu wants to ferment anti semitism around the diaspora because it encourages Jews to move to Israel which turns his greater Israel project into a reality. They were offering large discounts to Jews who would move into the illegally occupied territories with guarantees if the land was ever taken back and given to the rightful owners they would be fully compensated.
    Well there’s the talk of leasing the Greek islands close to Turkey and occupying land in Lebanon south of the Litani river.

    Greater Israel and war without end is on.
    I had not previously heard of the plan to lease Greek islands. Wow.
    Currently a suggestion

    https://x.com/europa/status/2036569682430374069?s=61
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,883
    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    HYUFD said:

    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    Well without a ground invasion it is unlikely to be able to remove the Iranian regime
    If the reports from the WSJ are correct this won’t happen and it will be a short Incursion.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 387
    I entirely agree about the harms of smoking and I do not smoke myself. However, from a political viewpoint this kind of policy could still be very effective for Farage and could put him into No.10 at the next general election.

    Policies like a generational smoking ban, even if they have a substantial majority support, will always be opposed by a significant minority who disagree with this kind of restriction of liberty and discrimination on the grounds of age. Here Farage is opposing age discrimination, and the government is officially introducing it in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill.

    It should be remembered that a party can win a majority on a small percentage of the vote if the votes are divided nearly equally amongst a large number of parties. There are now at least five major parties in GB (six in Scotland and Wales). If Farage can win 25% of the vote he could become PM and repeal the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. After all, the Conservatives and some of the other parties could support him in Parliament.

    Yes, smoking regularly can be very bad for your health and for other peoples health. However, age discrimination is also wrong and restricting smoking with measures that are age discriminatory is the wrong way to go about it.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    HMS Tyne just arrived in Torbay from Faslane

    Been shadowing and boarding dodgy Russian ghost Tankers.

    Contrary to right wing media denials.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 135,085
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    Well without a ground invasion it is unlikely to be able to remove the Iranian regime
    How do you envisage a ground invasion removing the Iranian regime?
    Well US and Israeli troops enter Tehran and literally remove the regime and Revolutionary Guard
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,071
    FF43 said:

    Almost for the the first time ever I agree Farage about the generational smoking ban. Not because it's Cromwellian but because it's a nonsense. You either ban tobacco for all age groups - vaping is your safer alternative for a nicotine addiction - or you allow people of all ages to carry on killing themselves.

    "Grandfather rights" is a fairly common concept. Surely it recognises that smoking is addictive, and those who started when it was legal may not be in a position to stop immediately. They are offered help to stop and others are not allowed to start.

    Why anyone ever thought that inhaling smoke was ever likely to be healthy is beyond me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,883
    What's weird about polls like this is that if you ask about being lax on cannabis (also smoking) you can get answers precisely the other way.

    The sickly sweet smell of cannabis seems to penetrate a wider radius (tens of metres, if not larger - and it's more insidious as it can dominate parks) whereas smoking even though it's more disgusting and invasive you need to be within a few metres.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,004
    Roger said:

    Quite an apocalyptic vsion from the excellent Jeremy Bowen this morning on radio 4. Well worth listening to. He's already mentioning Suez. This is not a done deal. Quite chilling.

    The Houthis fire on Israel thereby extending the conflict, including the Houthis abilty to close the Red Sea and the Suez Canel

    US and Israel, Iranian regime, Hamas, Hezobollah, the Houthis and others all have innocent blood on their hands, and ordinary people are paying the price for this hatred and nobody gets a pass - they are all guilty

  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
    So it's OK for Netanyahu to eradicate any Iranian representatives that US talk to ang gloat about it.

    It's fine to take out Osama Bin Laden and gloat about it.

    Thats fine they are dispensible.

    People in glass houses.

    An eye for an eye and all that.

    The world would be inherently safer without Bibi.



  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,004
    Brixian59 said:

    HMS Tyne just arrived in Torbay from Faslane

    Been shadowing and boarding dodgy Russian ghost Tankers.

    Contrary to right wing media denials.

    What right wing denials ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,361
    Roger said:

    Quite an apocalyptic vsion from the excellent Jeremy Bowen this morning on radio 4. Well worth listening to. He's already mentioning Suez. This is not a done deal. Quite chilling.

    Also worth reading the article @bondegezou linked from him
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HMS Tyne just arrived in Torbay from Faslane

    Been shadowing and boarding dodgy Russian ghost Tankers.

    Contrary to right wing media denials.

    What right wing denials ?
    GB News claiming we are just watching them sail past.

    We are not
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,004
    Brixian59 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HMS Tyne just arrived in Torbay from Faslane

    Been shadowing and boarding dodgy Russian ghost Tankers.

    Contrary to right wing media denials.

    What right wing denials ?
    GB News claiming we are just watching them sail past.

    We are not
    I never watch it
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,252
    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Given the surge of the far right in Europe, who could easily turn on Jews again as much as they have Muslims if the mood took them, a somewhat strange post.

    Israel has also successfully defended itself militarily against its neighbours in numerous wars even without direct US support and almost certainly has nukes
    Almost certainly.
    Just one of the many double standards that seems to apply in the ME, to wit Israel and its big daddy USA demanding full transparency from Iran at the end of bomb sight while Israeli spokesmen smirk and fudge over their nukes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,004
    Brixian59 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
    So it's OK for Netanyahu to eradicate any Iranian representatives that US talk to ang gloat about it.

    It's fine to take out Osama Bin Laden and gloat about it.

    Thats fine they are dispensible.

    People in glass houses.

    An eye for an eye and all that.

    The world would be inherently safer without Bibi.



    You have no means of knowing that Israel wihout Netanyahu would be any different

    Is Iran any different without the Ayatollah ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,809
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheValiant said:

    bondegezou said:

    A good BBC write up on the Iran war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y969pnxgvo

    “Trump is waging war based on instinct and it isn't working”

    The first few paragraphs talk about plans, planning etc.

    The BBC are sanewashing again. Trump didn't have a plan. It was just 'bomb because we can' and assume the Iranians would surrender and install Trump as the new Supreme leader. It really didn't go further than that.

    The US continue NOT to have a plan. Are they going to launch a ground invasion? If so, where? What's the aim, what's the objective?
    Well without a ground invasion it is unlikely to be able to remove the Iranian regime
    How do you envisage a ground invasion removing the Iranian regime?
    Well US and Israeli troops enter Tehran and literally remove the regime and Revolutionary Guard
    What level of forces are required for that, and how many are in theatre?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,954
    Brixian59 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
    So it's OK for Netanyahu to eradicate any Iranian representatives that US talk to ang gloat about it.

    It's fine to take out Osama Bin Laden and gloat about it.

    Thats fine they are dispensible.

    People in glass houses.

    An eye for an eye and all that.

    The world would be inherently safer without Bibi.



    So your solution to Trumpist regime change is… Trumpist regime change.

    Every advocate of “no, bomb these people” has a plan why this time it will be different

    Reminds me of a poster who thought the only way to save democracy from Reform was to cancel the next election and have a government rule by self perpetuation.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,883
    Brixian59 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
    So it's OK for Netanyahu to eradicate any Iranian representatives that US talk to ang gloat about it.

    It's fine to take out Osama Bin Laden and gloat about it.

    Thats fine they are dispensible.

    People in glass houses.

    An eye for an eye and all that.

    The world would be inherently safer without Bibi.



    You've advocated for someone to assassinate an elected leader (and possibly his cabinet "cabal" too) on a public forum.

    I hold no candle for the guy, and don't want him in power either, but that's incitement to violence.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,752
    Casino_Royale said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    OldKingCole said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    SandyRentool said:

    I see that the far-left takeover of the (no longer) Green Party means that they are now infested with antisemites.

    Since the pitiful 'Greens are anti NATO' tactic has proved entirely fruitless, obviously the media is now going full on Maoist bicycle on the road to Auschwitz. Possibly won't work as well as it did with Jezza because as far as I know the Greens don't have an active section of the party plotting to bring down Zack.
    The sense of entitlement from Labour is extreme.

    The exodus to the Greens is not being driven by anti-semitism, it is being driven by the Reform-adjacent policies of the Labour Party.
    As a committed pro-semite (I'm technically Jewish and I was brought up on accounts of the horrors of 30s Germany and the necessity of Israel), I've really had enough of Netanyahu and current Israeli policy, and that doesn't make me an anti-semite. Obviously burning Jewish ambulances is both wrong and stupid, but I don't think that being critical of Israeli policy qualifies at all.
    Netanyahu has done more for anti-semitism than anyone could have expected.
    "the necessity of Israel" - maybe it's because I'm not Jewish, but I've never understood how a genocide on one continent, however appalling, legitimises subsequent ethnic cleansing of a group of people completely innocent of that crime in another. Nor how moving to a country surrounded by enemies who are committed to destroying you makes you much safer.

    It reminds me a little of the logic of a white South African family friend who told me in Cape Town a few years ago that he had fled from Britain in 1970 (then 1% black) to South Africa (80% black) to avoid the Rivers of Blood and the black man's whip hand that Enoch Powell had forecast. He could clearly only find the safety he craved with systematic oppression of the indigenous majority, and, anyway, it probably wouldn't work in the long run.
    Israel is majority Jewish though and the only Jewish majority nation on earth, so a homeland Jews will always defend as their only sure sanctuary.

    South Africa has never been majority white but there are plenty of majority white nations on earth still and in most of Eastern Europe it is still almost 100% white
    But Israel is clearly not a sure sanctuary, is it? It is surrounded by countries that hate it, and have nearly wiped it off the map three times in its short life. The only reason it survived was American goodwill, which it is now losing.

    And, day to day, rockets are fired into the country from its neighbours and paranoid security is a part of everyday life, that makes the whole country feel like a mixture of an armed camp, with three years' military service for men and two for women, and an airport since 9/11. Terrorists pointlessly murdered 1,200 just a couple of years ago. So in fact Jews are actually far safer in the European democracies they left after the Second World War.

    So even on its own terms, providing sanctuary for Jews, Israel has been a complete failure.

    And a morally appalling one given the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs and the terrorism against the legitimate authorities which were its founding achievements.
    Natanyahu is out-performing Adolf Hitler in branding and putting a target on the back of every Jewish person on the Planet.

    He is turning Israel, and by it's definition Jewish people in to targets.

    Had anyone said this a few years ago they would have been certified, now the majority see it, feel it , sense it.

    When anyone (quite rightly) attacks ANTI SEMITISM - they need to attack the source. The source is NETANYAHU and his cabal in Tel Aviv.

    Eradicate him and his cabal, bring decency and honesty back in to Israeli politics DE-ESCALATE and sure as night follows day, anti semitism aroumd the Globe will reduce and de-escalate too!

    It needs a moderate Jew to take Netanyahu out, we can only hope someone steps up to the plate, in the same way a moderate Russian would with Putin.

    I find your talk of "eradication" particularly troubling.

    Netanyahu needs removing by the voters of Israel. It is they who put him there.They should vote to take him down. The incoming regime must decide how he should be punished. The asassins bullet will merely embed his approach for those who follow - and certainly rob justice of issuing its verdict.
    The post is actually incitement and therefore probably illegal.
    So it's OK for Netanyahu to eradicate any Iranian representatives that US talk to ang gloat about it.

    It's fine to take out Osama Bin Laden and gloat about it.

    Thats fine they are dispensible.

    People in glass houses.

    An eye for an eye and all that.

    The world would be inherently safer without Bibi.



    You've advocated for someone to assassinate an elected leader (and possibly his cabinet "cabal" too) on a public forum.

    I hold no candle for the guy, and don't want him in power either, but that's incitement to violence.
    In the same way others have in cited to smash

    Hamas
    Hezbollah
    Mullahs

    They are no worse.

    If its incitement I'm sure it will be taken down.
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