Just a quick question for PBers getting overexcited tonight.
Is the Alaa Abd El-Fattah story going to be bigger than the Chagos deal or the China spy trial story, I remember some where predicting the end of Starmer then.
Just so I can update my betting portfolio.
If it's correct to infer that there's more to it than meets the eye, it wasn't wise for the government to draw so much attention to it.
i think it's the right wing botosphere that's been getting it's knickers in a twist
Multiple tweets from cabinet ministers talking about how it was a top priority for them was asking for it.
Fancy people being upset over tweets like this. Beggars belief.
‘Y’all’. Jesus. We’re not in the US on the trailer park.
Have you eschewed the use of "mofo" for the New Year then ?
No, stopping drinking in the house and a regular run each morning is probably nearer the mark. Not that I drink too much these days. Mofo is A singularly U.K. based term, which I believe may have travelled, with its roots in our historic ‘roadman’ movement.
Did you buy a bungalow?
I am considering one as the years advance as I don’t like Stannah Stairlifts as they’re for oldies.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
Subjects are unrankable unless you decide how you are doing it. There is no obvious sense in which you can order stuff like: Marine engineering, Irish history, Victorian novels, Aristotle, Medicine, Accountancy, Environmental studies, Child care.
A complex world is made of many domains of knowledge and expertise. They are not co-commensurable.
IMO a problem with English Lit (which I did at university over 50 years ago) is that it became the field for unrigorous frauds with dim agendas and a love of hard words. But the best of its studies rank in depth and formidableness with the best. A recent example I enjoyed greatly was Marion Turner's 'Chaucer a European Life'. Notably it's a great piece of history writing as well as a literary study.
I think English lit should be seen also as a branch of historical study, a hard language study and a cultural civilizational study.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
I (Maths and Astrophysics) had a discussion with my then girlfriend (Music) about this and we came to the conclusion that Mathematics was a Language, and that Music transcended Language, and so, obviously, Music was the higher form of learning.
We have now been happily married for more than eleven years.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
I (Maths and Astrophysics) had a discussion with my then girlfriend (Music) about this and we came to the conclusion that Mathematics was a Language, and that Music transcended Language, and so, obviously, Music was the higher form of learning.
We have now been happily married for more than eleven years.
Does music play, still, an important part of your relationship ?
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I am a scientist, with a very science based education, but I would put that table the other way up.
The arts, liberal arts and subjects like sociology have much more scope for intellectual growth through life. They are why we live.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I take it law fell off the bottom of that list? Fair enough. Personally, I would have sociology, history and economics somewhat higher and art and music much lower but I am a Philistine. These subjects should give us an understanding of how our society works, why it doesn't and what we might do about it. This strikes me as useful. We should at least make different mistakes.
I once warned my newsagent (which shows how long ago this must have been) against pushing his daughter into A-level law which, certainly at the time, was looked on even by law degree admissions tutors as a Mickey Mouse subject.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
Hmm... I think Maths can drift into a kind of unapplied, somewhat pointless, intellectual showing off.
True for other subjects too, I'd argue economics and possibly physica turned down a rabbit hole of more quantitative = better which is a mistake.
Biology and chemistry are subjects that have given humanity many of their greatest achievements, and continue to do so.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
I (Maths and Astrophysics) had a discussion with my then girlfriend (Music) about this and we came to the conclusion that Mathematics was a Language, and that Music transcended Language, and so, obviously, Music was the higher form of learning.
We have now been happily married for more than eleven years.
Does music play, still, an important part of your relationship ?
It does, yes. We are fortunate to have a piano in our house which sees frequent use, and we await the delivery of a low whistle in the new year.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
I don't often agree with you, but that's spot on. Shakespeare tells us more about the human condition, power and politics than any non-fiction I can think of. The entire canon of English literature gives us a magnificent window into the changing world that's not available elsewhere, as is also the case with other countries' literature. I find it a bit depressing that people are so disparaging about our literary heritage.
Mind you, Orwell is often cited by many commentators on these pages as an authority on politics and power, so maybe all is not lost.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I am a scientist, with a very science based education, but I would put that table the other way up.
The arts, liberal arts and subjects like sociology have much more scope for intellectual growth through life. They are why we live.
The funny thing is that studying the liberal arts is seen as left-wing in America and right-wing here.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I am a scientist, with a very science based education, but I would put that table the other way up.
The arts, liberal arts and subjects like sociology have much more scope for intellectual growth through life. They are why we live.
History wasn't my degree but I did a few units (social, economic) and I find the skills I learnt there the ones I use the most in a work setting, particularly as I've become more senior. Trying to work out what is going on with limited sources of information and different motivations suits my role perfectly.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
No law, no medicine? Or are they to be found within the "vocational/technical/PE" disciplines. Computing? Business? Accounting?
Isn't physics at degree level essentially applied mathematics?
A bit of a half-hearted and pointless list if you don't mind me saying so.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
Subjects are unrankable unless you decide how you are doing it. There is no obvious sense in which you can order stuff like: Marine engineering, Irish history, Victorian novels, Aristotle, Medicine, Accountancy, Environmental studies, Child care.
A complex world is made of many domains of knowledge and expertise. They are not co-commensurable.
IMO a problem with English Lit (which I did at university over 50 years ago) is that it became the field for unrigorous frauds with dim agendas and a love of hard words. But the best of its studies rank in depth and formidableness with the best. A recent example I enjoyed greatly was Marion Turner's 'Chaucer a European Life'. Notably it's a great piece of history writing as well as a literary study.
I think English lit should be seen also as a branch of historical study, a hard language study and a cultural civilizational study.
This also gets into the thorny question of "what is education for anyway?". To the extent that "any degree is an indication that you can do something intellectually demanding in a more or less self-motivated way for several years", Eng Lit is no worse than anything else. And we ought to try to include a wide array of options at GCSE level so those who are really suited to that side of things have an opportunity to find that out, so I think it has a place at earlier levels of education too. Beyond that, are we trying to make the education system a sort of training system for employment, where the state subsidises fields it thinks undersupplied and lets unis charge full fee to basket weaving students, or do we think it valuable in itself for somebody to reach higher levels of education, or what?
Back in my day I think media studies had a bad rep because it was seen as an easy option, that you took if you couldn't handle a more serious subject.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
No law, no medicine? Or are they to be found within the "vocational/technical/PE" disciplines. Computing? Business? Accounting?
Isn't physics at degree level essentially applied mathematics?
A bit of a half-hearted and pointless list if you don't mind me saying so.
Well, you could say that applied Mathematics is essentially Physics. I ended up doing Fluid Dynamics three times at University: in Maths, Astrophysics and Atmospheric Dynamics.
It made a bit more sense the third time than the first, but still. Turbulence. Why?!?
I am not familiar with the British-Egyptian release but it seems Starmer, his cabinet, Cleverly and others campaigned for his release but the question now that needs an answer is were any of them aware of his tweets and views ?
I expect an enquiry will be launched and decisions made
Reading the thread it is amusing how non voting conservatives are speculating on the leadership of the party when there is no vacancy, no candidate worth installing, and unless it has been missed by common consent Badenoch has improved so much so she has the measure of Starmer at PMQs and ahead in approval ratings as well as reducing Farage and Reform's lead
It may be a hostage to fortune, and notwithstanding the May elections, but Badenoch may haul in Farage and Reform and have a good 2026
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I take it law fell off the bottom of that list? Fair enough. Personally, I would have sociology, history and economics somewhat higher and art and music much lower but I am a Philistine. These subjects should give us an understanding of how our society works, why it doesn't and what we might do about it. This strikes me as useful. We should at least make different mistakes.
No, law is under 'anything vocational'! The list is basically 'how impressed would I be if a friend's child chose x for A Levels or equivalent' (for that is the stage of life I am at). Purely a personal view. I don't disaparage any of the subjects on that list except sociology which I always unfairly characterose as an A Level in 'it's not fair'.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
I (Maths and Astrophysics) had a discussion with my then girlfriend (Music) about this and we came to the conclusion that Mathematics was a Language, and that Music transcended Language, and so, obviously, Music was the higher form of learning.
We have now been happily married for more than eleven years.
They are closely linked. Hence your happy marriage 🙂
But no, maths wins. My proof? A great mathematician will often have a profound appreciation of music. The opposite is far less common. So Maths swallows music.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
No law, no medicine? Or are they to be found within the "vocational/technical/PE" disciplines. Computing? Business? Accounting?
Isn't physics at degree level essentially applied mathematics?
A bit of a half-hearted and pointless list if you don't mind me saying so.
Well, you could say that applied Mathematics is essentially Physics. I ended up doing Fluid Dynamics three times at University: in Maths, Astrophysics and Atmospheric Dynamics.
It made a bit more sense the third time than the first, but still. Turbulence. Why?!?
I never saw the point of English and English lit at school, particularly the latter. In my opinion the great writers just wrote stuff - they didn’t sit down and analyse why what they were writing was going to,work. However with a bit of hindsight it get it a bit better now. I understand now that it’s possible to analyse Macbeth to look at its structures to gain insight etc. I still find it amusing that the only ‘blemish’ on my academic career is to B grades at GCSE - English and English Lit. The English one is especially galling as I have excellent written English skills and am nearing 100 scientific publications. But hey, that’s probably not what was being assessed back then.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I am a scientist, with a very science based education, but I would put that table the other way up.
The arts, liberal arts and subjects like sociology have much more scope for intellectual growth through life. They are why we live.
As another physical science based person, the social sciences done well and with a proper eye on the scientific method have my huge respect.
Across Psychology, Sociology, Economics, Politics and the like, the lack of control they can ever have over their experimental conditions and the lengths they have to go to to compensate and create valid tests against what is often just passive observation of massively complex systems blows my mind.
Of course, it also gives great scope for these subjects to be done badly, and often times they are, but I appreciate how hard they are to do well and how good practitioners have to be to authentically advance knowledge in these fields.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
Hmm... I think Maths can drift into a kind of unapplied, somewhat pointless, intellectual showing off.
True for other subjects too, I'd argue economics and possibly physica turned down a rabbit hole of more quantitative = better which is a mistake.
Biology and chemistry are subjects that have given humanity many of their greatest achievements, and continue to do so.
But maths underlies everything. It's the language of the universe.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
No law, no medicine? Or are they to be found within the "vocational/technical/PE" disciplines. Computing? Business? Accounting?
Isn't physics at degree level essentially applied mathematics?
A bit of a half-hearted and pointless list if you don't mind me saying so.
Well, you could say that applied Mathematics is essentially Physics. I ended up doing Fluid Dynamics three times at University: in Maths, Astrophysics and Atmospheric Dynamics.
It made a bit more sense the third time than the first, but still. Turbulence. Why?!?
I never saw the point of English and English lit at school, particularly the latter. In my opinion the great writers just wrote stuff - they didn’t sit down and analyse why what they were writing was going to,work. However with a bit of hindsight it get it a bit better now. I understand now that it’s possible to analyse Macbeth to look at its structures to gain insight etc. I still find it amusing that the only ‘blemish’ on my academic career is to B grades at GCSE - English and English Lit. The English one is especially galling as I have excellent written English skills and am nearing 100 scientific publications. But hey, that’s probably not what was being assessed back then.
I have an F grade at GCSE but they still gave me a place at Cambridge.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
Hmm... I think Maths can drift into a kind of unapplied, somewhat pointless, intellectual showing off.
True for other subjects too, I'd argue economics and possibly physica turned down a rabbit hole of more quantitative = better which is a mistake.
Biology and chemistry are subjects that have given humanity many of their greatest achievements, and continue to do so.
But maths underlies everything. It's the language of the universe.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
That depends on whether you place any value at all on our national history. It's the study of the stories we've written about ourselves throughout our history.
And does media studies give you any appreciation of the internal worlds of others ?
Just a quick question for PBers getting overexcited tonight.
Is the Alaa Abd El-Fattah story going to be bigger than the Chagos deal or the China spy trial story, I remember some where predicting the end of Starmer then.
Just so I can update my betting portfolio.
If it's correct to infer that there's more to it than meets the eye, it wasn't wise for the government to draw so much attention to it.
i think it's the right wing botosphere that's been getting it's knickers in a twist
Multiple tweets from cabinet ministers talking about how it was a top priority for them was asking for it.
Fancy people being upset over tweets like this. Beggars belief.
‘Y’all’. Jesus. We’re not in the US on the trailer park.
Have you eschewed the use of "mofo" for the New Year then ?
No, stopping drinking in the house and a regular run each morning is probably nearer the mark. Not that I drink too much these days. Mofo is A singularly U.K. based term, which I believe may have travelled, with its roots in our historic ‘roadman’ movement.
Doubtful. The OED’s first citation of the word motherfucker comes from the Texas Court of Appeals’ account of the 1889 trial of Levy v. State.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
Subjects are unrankable unless you decide how you are doing it. There is no obvious sense in which you can order stuff like: Marine engineering, Irish history, Victorian novels, Aristotle, Medicine, Accountancy, Environmental studies, Child care.
A complex world is made of many domains of knowledge and expertise. They are not co-commensurable.
IMO a problem with English Lit (which I did at university over 50 years ago) is that it became the field for unrigorous frauds with dim agendas and a love of hard words. But the best of its studies rank in depth and formidableness with the best. A recent example I enjoyed greatly was Marion Turner's 'Chaucer a European Life'. Notably it's a great piece of history writing as well as a literary study.
I think English lit should be seen also as a branch of historical study, a hard language study and a cultural civilizational study.
Just a quick question for PBers getting overexcited tonight.
Is the Alaa Abd El-Fattah story going to be bigger than the Chagos deal or the China spy trial story, I remember some where predicting the end of Starmer then.
Just so I can update my betting portfolio.
If it's correct to infer that there's more to it than meets the eye, it wasn't wise for the government to draw so much attention to it.
i think it's the right wing botosphere that's been getting it's knickers in a twist
Multiple tweets from cabinet ministers talking about how it was a top priority for them was asking for it.
Fancy people being upset over tweets like this. Beggars belief.
‘Y’all’. Jesus. We’re not in the US on the trailer park.
Have you eschewed the use of "mofo" for the New Year then ?
No, stopping drinking in the house and a regular run each morning is probably nearer the mark. Not that I drink too much these days. Mofo is A singularly U.K. based term, which I believe may have travelled, with its roots in our historic ‘roadman’ movement.
Doubtful. The OED’s first citation of the word motherfucker comes from the Texas Court of Appeals’ account of the 1889 trial of Levy v. State.
Those who sneer at media studies should remember that English, when first introduced to universities, was seen as the media studies of its day. Novels were read for pleasure, or for women to discuss in their knitting circles, not the stuff of serious academic enquiry.
I find English Literature a more ridiculous subject than media studies. I was lucky enough that my school did not require it at GCSE and I sympathise with my daughters whise schools compel them to take it.
May I ask why?
It's not even facts. It's just stories people have written. It's a very weird niche of all the information available to us. It's not wrong that it should be studied, but weird that it gets the prominence it does. Media studies at least looks at HOW things are communicated.
Good literature is invaluable in teaching us about the human condition, how we might live our lives and organise society. Telling each other stories has been utterly central to the social development of our species for thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.
OTTOMH, I would rank the subjects thus in order of my respect for them: Maths Physics Biology/Chemistry Languages* Art/Music Anything vocational/technical/PE Geography/Economics/Psychology English Language History/Politics/RE English Literature Sociology
I should add that I did a degree in geography and politics so this isn't some scientist looking down on everyone else.
*sadly almost useless nowadays with AI, but impressively hard
I agree with your number 1. Mathematics is the highest calling for the human intellect.
Hmm... I think Maths can drift into a kind of unapplied, somewhat pointless, intellectual showing off.
True for other subjects too, I'd argue economics and possibly physica turned down a rabbit hole of more quantitative = better which is a mistake.
Biology and chemistry are subjects that have given humanity many of their greatest achievements, and continue to do so.
But maths underlies everything. It's the language of the universe.
Agree, which has nothing to do with the fact that I have a maths degree. Just a shame I got to the limit of my ability. I loved logic which I took as a speciality in my 2nd and 3rd year. Fascinating but too difficult. My son has left me miles behind. I have forgotten much of it now.
Just a quick question for PBers getting overexcited tonight.
Is the Alaa Abd El-Fattah story going to be bigger than the Chagos deal or the China spy trial story, I remember some where predicting the end of Starmer then.
Just so I can update my betting portfolio.
If it's correct to infer that there's more to it than meets the eye, it wasn't wise for the government to draw so much attention to it.
i think it's the right wing botosphere that's been getting it's knickers in a twist
Multiple tweets from cabinet ministers talking about how it was a top priority for them was asking for it.
Fancy people being upset over tweets like this. Beggars belief.
‘Y’all’. Jesus. We’re not in the US on the trailer park.
Have you eschewed the use of "mofo" for the New Year then ?
No, stopping drinking in the house and a regular run each morning is probably nearer the mark. Not that I drink too much these days. Mofo is A singularly U.K. based term, which I believe may have travelled, with its roots in our historic ‘roadman’ movement.
Doubtful. The OED’s first citation of the word motherfucker comes from the Texas Court of Appeals’ account of the 1889 trial of Levy v. State.
Comments
A complex world is made of many domains of knowledge and expertise. They are not co-commensurable.
IMO a problem with English Lit (which I did at university over 50 years ago) is that it became the field for unrigorous frauds with dim agendas and a love of hard words. But the best of its studies rank in depth and formidableness with the best. A recent example I enjoyed greatly was Marion Turner's 'Chaucer a European Life'. Notably it's a great piece of history writing as well as a literary study.
I think English lit should be seen also as a branch of historical study, a hard language study and a cultural civilizational study.
We have now been happily married for more than eleven years.
The arts, liberal arts and subjects like sociology have much more scope for intellectual growth through life. They are why we live.
True for other subjects too, I'd argue economics and possibly physica turned down a rabbit hole of more quantitative = better which is a mistake.
Biology and chemistry are subjects that have given humanity many of their greatest achievements, and continue to do so.
Bridgette Bardot dies at 91
Mind you, Orwell is often cited by many commentators on these pages as an authority on politics and power, so maybe all is not lost.
Isn't physics at degree level essentially applied mathematics?
A bit of a half-hearted and pointless list if you don't mind me saying so.
NEW THREAD
https://x.com/thetvgrump/status/2004926532649976155?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
Back in my day I think media studies had a bad rep because it was seen as an easy option, that you took if you couldn't handle a more serious subject.
It made a bit more sense the third time than the first, but still. Turbulence. Why?!?
I expect an enquiry will be launched and decisions made
Reading the thread it is amusing how non voting conservatives are speculating on the leadership of the party when there is no vacancy, no candidate worth installing, and unless it has been missed by common consent Badenoch has improved so much so she has the measure of Starmer at PMQs and ahead in approval ratings as well as reducing Farage and Reform's lead
It may be a hostage to fortune, and notwithstanding the May elections, but Badenoch may haul in Farage and Reform and have a good 2026
The list is basically 'how impressed would I be if a friend's child chose x for A Levels or equivalent' (for that is the stage of life I am at). Purely a personal view. I don't disaparage any of the subjects on that list except sociology which I always unfairly characterose as an A Level in 'it's not fair'.
But no, maths wins. My proof? A great mathematician will often have a profound appreciation of music. The opposite is far less common. So Maths swallows music.
QED.
Across Psychology, Sociology, Economics, Politics and the like, the lack of control they can ever have over their experimental conditions and the lengths they have to go to to compensate and create valid tests against what is often just passive observation of massively complex systems blows my mind.
Of course, it also gives great scope for these subjects to be done badly, and often times they are, but I appreciate how hard they are to do well and how good practitioners have to be to authentically advance knowledge in these fields.
And does media studies give you any appreciation of the internal worlds of others ?
The OED’s first citation of the word motherfucker comes from the Texas Court of Appeals’ account of the 1889 trial of Levy v. State.
Practice what you preach.
Or preach a bit less.
Though I regret choosing it as a degree.
We all preach here. It’s how we roll.
There should be a gap between both sentences.