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NIC Reeves & The Blunder Stuff – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,815
edited 8:54AM in General
NIC Reeves & The Blunder Stuff – politicalbetting.com

Rachel Reeves said repeatedly during the run-up to the Budget that she would have to raise taxes because of a productivity downgrade by the OBRThe Office for Budget Responsibility has today suggested that was not the caseHere is what Reeves said publicly – and what the OBR…

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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    First? Like Arsenal until later in the season
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,458
    edited 9:00AM
    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,933
    Struggling to understand the problem with this one.
    Maybe I'm too partisan to see.

    Is the argument the opposition is making that the economy is actually doing quite well and we didn't need raise taxes to afford additional spending?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    I still can’t believe that Labour are playing these stupid political games that please no-one, in some cases are actively dangerous, and reinforce their perception as dishonest. Do they actually think people are impressed with this stuff? That they see them as latter day Machiavellis and 4D chess grandmasters?

    It’s completely incomprehensible to me.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Rory on TRiP channels David Gauke to say the budget was mainly Treasury orthodoxy like Rishi or Hunt (45 seconds)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fn6yEP3dvMQ
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,880
    The adults are in charge.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,829
    rkrkrk said:

    Struggling to understand the problem with this one.
    Maybe I'm too partisan to see.

    Is the argument the opposition is making that the economy is actually doing quite well and we didn't need raise taxes to afford additional spending?

    Partly, Reeves isn't good at politics.

    But there's also something profound on the right. Boris was brought down for being caught lying. Flat-out telling of untruths. So some would Absolutely Love It if they could do the same to this government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,147
    rkrkrk said:

    Struggling to understand the problem with this one.
    Maybe I'm too partisan to see.

    Is the argument the opposition is making that the economy is actually doing quite well and we didn't need raise taxes to afford additional spending?

    Presumably we can put off the IMF for a bit longer...
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,023

    I still can’t believe that Labour are playing these stupid political games that please no-one, in some cases are actively dangerous, and reinforce their perception as dishonest. Do they actually think people are impressed with this stuff? That they see them as latter day Machiavellis and 4D chess grandmasters?

    It’s completely incomprehensible to me.

    Looks like it was more to do with Party management. Can you imagine what a department spending round would be like if she said, we've got loads of dosh.

    Will be a problem next time round when there may be some pushback to spend more on Sandy's chavs and their children.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    edited 9:08AM
    rkrkrk said:

    Struggling to understand the problem with this one.
    Maybe I'm too partisan to see.

    Is the argument the opposition is making that the economy is actually doing quite well and we didn't need raise taxes to afford additional spending?

    I do think it’s a double-edged sword, certainly. I mean the fact she had some headroom left is a good thing (even if it was significantly reduced). But surely then the messaging should have been - because of the unstable world we live in I need to increase the headroom, because all the uncertainty around the figures in the budget is causing market stress. Absolutely bizarre to then spend the next few weeks telling everyone how awful everything was so that you thought that the budget would be received better (why would it be). I just don’t know what they were thinking.

    Edit: just saw Battlebus’s comment above re this all being about party management, which is plausible to me.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,881
    I can't understand talk of a £20 bn black hole when the government is borrowing £100 bn.

    That suggests a £100 bn hole, black or otherwise.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791
    Talking about right-wing froth campaigns in the media and how terrified SKS and Ms Reeves are of them, an interesting analysis of the motability affair in the Graun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/29/how-motability-cuts-went-from-a-rightwing-online-campaign-to-rachel-reevess-budget
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,883
    edited 9:15AM
    Putting my spin hat on for the minute, is this not just mental lag against a quickly changing picture. The budget runs to 100s of pages and each reaction to changes in circumstances need to be worked through, so if you are the plodding, follow through the consequences type you may still be looking at last month's draft of the budget and briefing in line with that until the actual adjustments to the budget from improving finances are worked through the system and in the draft.

    As TimS alludes, it's leaden, flat footed politics, but it need not be considered any more than that.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,647
    edited 9:15AM
    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,954
    edited 9:15AM

    I can't understand talk of a £20 bn black hole when the government is borrowing £100 bn.

    That suggests a £100 bn hole, black or otherwise.

    It is all a weird game. We set up arbitrary rules which we can change. We then make guesses on policies which we think are often unlikely to be ever implemented and can be hard to predict if they do happen. And then obsess over whether the number is +1% or -1% of the annual budget.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    I agree this is the big takeaway and cut-through of the budget right now, certainly, though Reeves was already being seen as dishonest based on the tax rises so having this pop up to reinforce that perception is far from ideal for them.

    I said yesterday that Labour cannot let that perception take hold in the long run. If they’re still going into the next GE as being perceived as having redistributed earnings to welfare they will be in serious trouble unless we’ve had much better growth and people are feeling generally better off.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Ryanair scraps VIP scheme after customers take too many cheap flights
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/11/29/ryanair-scraps-vip-scheme-customers-too-many-cheap-flights/ (£££)
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,962
    rkrkrk said:

    Struggling to understand the problem with this one.
    Maybe I'm too partisan to see.

    Is the argument the opposition is making that the economy is actually doing quite well and we didn't need raise taxes to afford additional spending?

    The argument is that we have a Labour government in power and everything it does is therefore bad, whilst good news must either be given a negative slant (OBR figures) or ignored completely (immigration figures). That is of course for those operating at Daily Mail level or lower. Fortunately on PB we can generally raise our sights a bit and discuss the economic and political implications in a less partisan manner. So, we might consider Reeves and Starmer to be not very good at politics but nevertheless consider it in the broader context of what really matters in politics today or even how they compare with previous holders of their offices.

    But you can't expect everyone to be that smart.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    Nice description of the administrative uncertainties and complexities introduced into the system when the IT threshold falls so low that it kicks in below the level upon which it is realistic to support yourself and you have to make complications in order to keep the pensioner vote. Not mentioned but also real are the lovely complications, and associated fairness, of the relation of taxed income and untaxed benefits.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/nov/28/people-deriving-income-solely-from-state-pension-wont-be-taxed-says-chancellor
  • isamisam Posts: 43,141
    The top of The Independent’s front page makes it look like the question of why people are still being called ‘openly gay’ is a response to the news that France is intercepting empty dinghies in the channel
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606
    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,220
    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    The line is that she said the economy was in tough times, so taxes on working people would have to rise. But the economy isn't in as tough a time as indicated, yet taxes on working people have still risen. At the same time, benefits for those not working have gone up, making it look like a political decision to tax and spend, rather than an economic decision (to increase taxes) to try and balance the books.

    At least, that's my understanding.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Text scammers make tens of thousands a month – and spend it on designer shoes
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg4nzp6ezg7o

    Stay safe, everyone, and if you can't stay safe, stay tasteful.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,465
    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    There’s a bit of a challenge with categorisation I think. Not all social media is alike. Some platforms are infinitely more damaging than others, for various reasons.

    TikTok and to a lesser extent YouTube (my daughter’s goggling at it currently) eat the brain by auto playing hour after hour of mindless content. Worse than multi-channel TV? Maybe not, but mobiles mean screen time can expand to fill most of the day.

    X, Bluesky and other political platforms encourage division and hate. To my mind they’re the most damaging to society, but the damage is also being done to adults.

    Instagram turns children and adults into body-obsessed poseurs.

    By contrast, I don’t think messaging apps like WhatsApp or Snapchat should be lumped in the same category. They are a mode of social expression and probably increase rather than reduce interaction with friends. Yes there are risks of online bullying, but you can set up text chats too which are essentially the same thing.

    Then there’s LinkedIn which despite the nauseating corporate nonsense that often fills it up is a largely harmless space for teenagers.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    edited 9:25AM
    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    Let’s say you’ve fallen on hard times and you’ve asked your friend for some money to help. Only on the morning of going to see them you actually found that money down the back of the sofa. Your friend probably has the right to feel a bit miffed if you didn’t mention you found it.

    I don’t think this will do for her, and yes in some ways there’s a positive spin to it all, but it does give another angle to her not being entirely straight with people. Which given the general perception of clumsy dishonesty that hangs around Labour, isn’t great for them.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,458
    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    On topic, three of the four bookmakers betting on Rachel Reeves' exit date took their markets down overnight. Starsports has clipped 2025 into 4/1 against; 8/15 next year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,910
    edited 9:29AM

    I can't understand talk of a £20 bn black hole when the government is borrowing £100 bn.

    That suggests a £100 bn hole, black or otherwise.

    It is all a weird game. We set up arbitrary rules which we can change. We then make guesses on policies which we think are often unlikely to be ever implemented and can be hard to predict if they do happen. And then obsess over whether the number is +1% or -1% of the annual budget.
    It's a function of "no headroom".
    Successive chancellors have cut the contingency reserve to fund planned spending, which means they've nothing left in the kitty for surprises.

    It's all a bit of a shell game, considering our long term running of a deficit, but it piques the attention of the debt markets when the annual numbers don't add up.
    Planned borrowing in generally rather cheaper than unplanned borrowing.

    More headroom means the precise accuracy of the guesses (which aren't particularly accurate) doesn't matter as much.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    Let’s say you’ve fallen on hard times and you’ve asked your friend for some money to help. Only on the morning of going to see them you actually found that money down the back of the sofa. Your friend probably has the right to feel a bit miffed if you didn’t mention you found it.

    I don’t think this will do for her, and yes in some ways there’s a positive spin to it all, but it does give another angle to her not being entirely straight with people. Which given the general perception of clumsy dishonesty that hangs around Labour, isn’t great for them.
    The key question is whether the Chancellor or even the Prime Minister misled the Commons. That would be career-ending (ask Boris). I can't quite see it but have not read every statement or answer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,910
    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It's the deliberate pretence that she hadn't, in order to justify more tax rises, that is (understandably) annoying people,
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    edited 9:32AM

    TimS said:

    Only this Labour government (I think feckless is the word of the morning) could manage to make a bad news story out of the OBR producing a better fiscal forecast than expected. That takes a special talent.

    For all their lack of political skills, this also highlights they have no champions in the press. Three quarters of the press are actively hostile and the other quarter meh about them. That is a first in my lifetime, and would challenge even skilled political communicators, let alone numpty ones.
    The last government had few champions also. Among the media who are reasonably fair to this government: Mirror, Guardian, BBC, Channel 4, ITV, New Statesman, Economist, FT.

    I don't follow the Sun, Mail or DT closely at all but I don't remember them being effusive about the last government.

    How would anyone start 'championing' the present government? They can't even champion themselves.

    (Anecdote: I was brought up in a DTelegraph and Times household, 60 years ago. My DT reading father said to me of the DT as it was then: their straight news is extensive and reliable; their editorial comment is rubbish; if you want the truth, read the city pages.)

  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,647
    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    The article suggested you should be able to do it via facial identification.

    And in any case, if like me you've had your social media accounts open for longer than 16 years, I suspect they can work it out without asking for ID.

    And if it ends up with fewer adults on social media who don't want to show ID, I'd consider that an ancillary benefit of the policy.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606
    I think someone at the OBR has got it in for her. First they release the budget early which has never happened before then this. What happened to my chum Robert Chote?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,829
    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    Given that big business algorithmic social media has similar brain-rotting effects on over 16s, reducing its use across the board might be good for us.

    Anyone know how the OSA is settling down?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791
    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    In the UK you have to say you are over 18 to buy alcohol online. Mind, the fact I have a credit card is probably a fairly good indicator ...

    Maybe the Aussies need something like the Drinkaware scheme for pubs (in Scotland only?) where the teen gets an ID card like a bus pass. I don't think the card is used for anything else.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    TimS said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    There’s a bit of a challenge with categorisation I think. Not all social media is alike. Some platforms are infinitely more damaging than others, for various reasons.

    TikTok and to a lesser extent YouTube (my daughter’s goggling at it currently) eat the brain by auto playing hour after hour of mindless content. Worse than multi-channel TV? Maybe not, but mobiles mean screen time can expand to fill most of the day.

    X, Bluesky and other political platforms encourage division and hate. To my mind they’re the most damaging to society, but the damage is also being done to adults.

    Instagram turns children and adults into body-obsessed poseurs.

    By contrast, I don’t think messaging apps like WhatsApp or Snapchat should be lumped in the same category. They are a mode of social expression and probably increase rather than reduce interaction with friends. Yes there are risks of online bullying, but you can set up text chats too which are essentially the same thing.

    Then there’s LinkedIn which despite the nauseating corporate nonsense that often fills it up is a largely harmless space for teenagers.

    But is it not the messaging apps where bullying (even to suicide) takes place, not to mention grooming by the paedos in Peter Kyle's warnings?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,910
    I think Rachel Reeves survives this but if there’s evidence that Pippa Crerar of The Guardian alludes to and some of this was to stop a leadership challenge against Starmer then the First and Second Lords of the Treasury are in a lot of trouble.

    Were the fibs all told outside Parliament, or did she tell some to the Commons too ?

    That would likely be terminal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791

    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    Given that big business algorithmic social media has similar brain-rotting effects on over 16s, reducing its use across the board might be good for us.

    Anyone know how the OSA is settling down?
    It did occur to me the other day that we've heard very little about it, compared to the speeches on here before it came. Would be interesting to have a balanced assessment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It would be very good if it were not balanced by quietly increasing prospective borrowing by £57 billion, including magical reductions in borrowing right at the end of the fiscal period, and just after the next election.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,659
    Well what do you know. One bunch of liars has been replaced by another.

    Continuity Bojo.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,659
    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It would be very good if it were not balanced by quietly increasing prospective borrowing by £57 billion, including magical reductions in borrowing right at the end of the fiscal period, and just after the next election.
    What was the whole point of that early morning press conference too ?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,822
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8e9d13x2z7o

    6000 A320s need immediate software or hardware upgrades.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,035
    Nigelb said:

    I think Rachel Reeves survives this but if there’s evidence that Pippa Crerar of The Guardian alludes to and some of this was to stop a leadership challenge against Starmer then the First and Second Lords of the Treasury are in a lot of trouble.

    Were the fibs all told outside Parliament, or did she tell some to the Commons too ?

    That would likely be terminal.

    Unsure, the CRD are poring over Hansard this weekend.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    edited 9:41AM
    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It would be very good if it were not balanced by quietly increasing prospective borrowing by £57 billion, including magical reductions in borrowing right at the end of the fiscal period, and just after the next election.
    What was the whole point of that early morning press conference too ?
    I think I see that as more cock up than calculation. I think at that point she genuinely was expecting to raise income tax (leaving aside the justification for it for a moment) but then in the next couple of days the focus groups, general reaction and (perhaps more importantly the backbench noise) came so loudly back at her that it would be considered unforgivable that she changed her mind.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,276
    “When you’re borrowing over £100 billion a year you can annoy the markets like this.”

    Perhaps a typo? Cannot?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Taz said:

    Well what do you know. One bunch of liars has been replaced by another.

    Continuity Bojo.

    Hence the rise of NOTA parties like Reform and the Greens and the one that dare not speak its name.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,659
    Nigelb said:

    I think Rachel Reeves survives this but if there’s evidence that Pippa Crerar of The Guardian alludes to and some of this was to stop a leadership challenge against Starmer then the First and Second Lords of the Treasury are in a lot of trouble.

    Were the fibs all told outside Parliament, or did she tell some to the Commons too ?

    That would likely be terminal.

    I suspect you are right but I think both she and SKS just limp on from here until being put out of their misery sometime after May, although Reform have clearly peaked it will still be shit for labour.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It's the deliberate pretence that she hadn't, in order to justify more tax rises, that is (understandably) annoying people,
    A potential killer in the budget is the allegation, hard to deny, that Reeves has index linked both pensions and benefits (and extended benefits to those with +2 children) but the price is that workers have not had their thresholds index linked, and the plan is that this continues for 10 years in all, to pay for the non workers (like me, a pensioner) to be indexed.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,035

    “When you’re borrowing over £100 billion a year you can annoy the markets like this.”

    Perhaps a typo? Cannot?

    Yes, well done for spotting my, ahem, deliberate typo.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,659

    Taz said:

    Well what do you know. One bunch of liars has been replaced by another.

    Continuity Bojo.

    Hence the rise of NOTA parties like Reform and the Greens and the one that dare not speak its name.
    I’ve noticed that the attacks on Farage and Reform seem to have plateaued and now parties, certainly Labour, are turning their attention to the Greens. Even Ed Davey has attacked Polanski, rightly, for his Lib Dem flounce when not being selected for a seat.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,954

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It would be very good if it were not balanced by quietly increasing prospective borrowing by £57 billion, including magical reductions in borrowing right at the end of the fiscal period, and just after the next election.
    What was the whole point of that early morning press conference too ?
    I think I see that as more cock up than calculation. I think at that point she genuinely was expecting to raise income tax (leaving aside the justification for it for a moment) but then in the next couple of days the focus groups, general reaction and (perhaps more importantly the backbench noise) came so loudly back at her that it would be considered unforgivable that she changed her mind.
    It is an absurd misreading.

    People don't like paying more tax. Of course in focus groups they say don't put up income tax. But if you are going to put up 10 other taxes instead that is no more popular, and less effective.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606
    This Pippa Crerar story just reads like fluff. The Guardian are on a push to become relevant again. They've upped their game recently but this just reads like the nonsense you get in the Mail. If they want to get talked about un-sack Steve Bell

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/11/keir-starmer-allies-ousting-pm-would-be-reckless-fears-leadership-challenge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,276
    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    If you’re the sort of person who is concerned about entering identification documents, I’m surprised you would ever want to use social media given how much Facebook etc. gather up and sell data about us.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,484
    edited 9:47AM

    Taz said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    I don't see how the fact that she's found us an extra £28 billion down the back of the sofa makes her look bad?

    It would be very good if it were not balanced by quietly increasing prospective borrowing by £57 billion, including magical reductions in borrowing right at the end of the fiscal period, and just after the next election.
    What was the whole point of that early morning press conference too ?
    I think I see that as more cock up than calculation. I think at that point she genuinely was expecting to raise income tax (leaving aside the justification for it for a moment) but then in the next couple of days the focus groups, general reaction and (perhaps more importantly the backbench noise) came so loudly back at her that it would be considered unforgivable that she changed her mind.
    It is an absurd misreading.

    People don't like paying more tax. Of course in focus groups they say don't put up income tax. But if you are going to put up 10 other taxes instead that is no more popular, and less effective.
    I certainly don’t think she’s had any better reaction to the budget than if she’d have just gone ahead and done it. Indeed the corresponding cut to NI might even have given her a “helping out the workers” wheeze as well.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,659
    I rarely post about Trump but this, along with his banning of all third world migration, is just nuts.

    He seriously thinks 50 year mortgages are a good thing.

    Creating effectively renting for life but without the ease of moving tenancies that exist for renters like not having to sell the place or worry about the equity.

    Almost as daft as shared equity.

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1994515607749075195?s=61
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,035
    edited 9:47AM
    Ouch.

    Interview with Jeremy Corbyn as the Your Party conference starts in Liverpool…

    Are you friends with Zarah Sultana?

    We’re “colleagues in parliament”, he says.


    https://x.com/robpowellnews/status/1994699611794026766
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,954
    Taz said:

    I rarely post about Trump but this, along with his banning of all third world migration, is just nuts.

    He seriously thinks 50 year mortgages are a good thing.

    Creating effectively renting for life but without the ease of moving tenancies that exist for renters like not having to sell the place or worry about the equity.

    Almost as daft as shared equity.

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1994515607749075195?s=61

    It is good for real estate developers, bankers and bad for the Joe and Jane Average. Of course he is in favour.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,276
    I’m not seeing a killer Reeves quote that is clearly a lie. The claims against her rest on things she didn’t say or implications she purportedly made.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,465
    edited 9:56AM

    TimS said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    There’s a bit of a challenge with categorisation I think. Not all social media is alike. Some platforms are infinitely more damaging than others, for various reasons.

    TikTok and to a lesser extent YouTube (my daughter’s goggling at it currently) eat the brain by auto playing hour after hour of mindless content. Worse than multi-channel TV? Maybe not, but mobiles mean screen time can expand to fill most of the day.

    X, Bluesky and other political platforms encourage division and hate. To my mind they’re the most damaging to society, but the damage is also being done to adults.

    Instagram turns children and adults into body-obsessed poseurs.

    By contrast, I don’t think messaging apps like WhatsApp or Snapchat should be lumped in the same category. They are a mode of social expression and probably increase rather than reduce interaction with friends. Yes there are risks of online bullying, but you can set up text chats too which are essentially the same thing.

    Then there’s LinkedIn which despite the nauseating corporate nonsense that often fills it up is a largely harmless space for teenagers.

    But is it not the messaging apps where bullying (even to suicide) takes place, not to mention grooming by the paedos in Peter Kyle's warnings?
    Fair point. I think different types of platform need looking at in different ways. I worry much more about the TikTok brain rot for my children than messaging groups, but they’ve probably been lucky.

    Mind you I got roped into doing 5 TikTok videos talking about the budget in the last 3 weeks, so I suppose I’m part of the problem.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706
    edited 9:58AM

    “When you’re borrowing over £100 billion a year you can annoy the markets like this.”

    Perhaps a typo? Cannot?

    Yes, well done for spotting my, ahem, deliberate typo.
    To be fair, the markets do appear to be quite unfussed about all this. My rough understanding is that a big chunk of the tax rises is going towards more fiscal headroom/reducing the deficit to close to a surplus in 2029-30, which is quite admirable in the circumstances.

    Whether that actually comes to pass in the run up to an election is up for debate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,721
    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    I have huge concerns about the potential harm of social media on youngsters. However, I would rather this was addressd by controls implemented by the tech companies running it. This would require them to spend money in restricting the scope of what is said online.

    The worry is that if you have young people with no access to the internet until they hit their 16th birthday, they then get hit with everything. Rather like giving them a Ferrari on their 16th birthday and saying "Have fun!"
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    True, and all good points. However, government and parliament have a unique job no-one else is allowed to do - to legislate, amend, regulate, issue SIs and quantify.

    How long do you give any government, new in office in 2024, before the basics of how such things are 'right now' is not the responsibility of the past, but of the present government and parliament?

    I suggest roughly this, assuming no black swans: Within two years it is reasonable to expect everything the state undertakes to be responsible for is run competently and well.

    Within 3-4 years the legislative framework under which it wants to work should be in place and running; with the public having a clear idea of the direction of travel for the future.

    (So the gangs should be smashed and the small boats stopped pretty soon).

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606

    Ouch.

    Interview with Jeremy Corbyn as the Your Party conference starts in Liverpool…

    Are you friends with Zarah Sultana?

    We’re “colleagues in parliament”, he says.


    https://x.com/robpowellnews/status/1994699611794026766

    He sounds uncharacteristically defensive. He clearly loathes her. I wonder whether she'll turn up?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,829
    edited 10:01AM
    Eabhal said:

    “When you’re borrowing over £100 billion a year you can annoy the markets like this.”

    Perhaps a typo? Cannot?

    Yes, well done for spotting my, ahem, deliberate typo.
    To be fair, the markets do appear to be quite unfussed about all this. My rough understanding is that a big chunk of the tax rises is going towards more fiscal headroom/reducing the deficit to close to a surplus in 2029-30, which is quite admirable in the circumstances.

    Whether that actually comes to pass in the run up to an election is up for debate.
    Given what happened around the Time of Rachel's Tears, that's significant. Those trying to prise Reeves out are unlikely to think her successor is an upgrade.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,341

    I’m not seeing a killer Reeves quote that is clearly a lie. The claims against her rest on things she didn’t say or implications she purportedly made.

    Me neither. I still don't really understand it all though.

    1. They wanted to do a massive tax rise, including income tax (possibly offset partially by a NI cut).
    2. They decided that the argument for this would have to be necessity, and the OBR had given them convenient cover to do so, with the productivity downgrade.
    3. They ignored the following inflation and wages upgrade as it did not fit the narrative.
    4. Plans changed when Starmer's leadership was threatened, and it was decided to take income tax off the table
    5. So really, there was no impact.

    It speaks of chaos and a completely shite Government and Treasury team, but it doesn't really speak of a swindling the public, because due to a fluke, that didn't end up happening.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 299
    edited 10:03AM
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    Only this Labour government (I think feckless is the word of the morning) could manage to make a bad news story out of the OBR producing a better fiscal forecast than expected. That takes a special talent.

    For all their lack of political skills, this also highlights they have no champions in the press. Three quarters of the press are actively hostile and the other quarter meh about them. That is a first in my lifetime, and would challenge even skilled political communicators, let alone numpty ones.
    The last government had few champions also. Among the media who are reasonably fair to this government: Mirror, Guardian, BBC, Channel 4, ITV, New Statesman, Economist, FT.

    I don't follow the Sun, Mail or DT closely at all but I don't remember them being effusive about the last government.

    How would anyone start 'championing' the present government? They can't even champion themselves.

    (Anecdote: I was brought up in a DTelegraph and Times household, 60 years ago. My DT reading father said to me of the DT as it was then: their straight news is extensive and reliable; their editorial comment is rubbish; if you want the truth, read the city pages.)

    I think once upon a time it was only the tabloids that editorialised the news, with the broadsheets leaving the opinion to the opinion pieces. Of course you have E H Carr's principle about the narrative is about the selection and arranging of the facts, in this case stories.

    I think that is long gone, and the change is less than twenty years old. Pretty much all news is now an editorialisation of events, broadsheet, tabloid, gb news or the BBC. People want the news that coincides with their own views and wanted presented in that way, and if the legacy media don't do it they go elsewhere.

    The BBC generally does a better job of it, but it has in house sacred cow perspectives that are protected at all costs. Some of those have been exposed recently, but even then, they make a better stab.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,721
    Nigelb said:

    I think Rachel Reeves survives this but if there’s evidence that Pippa Crerar of The Guardian alludes to and some of this was to stop a leadership challenge against Starmer then the First and Second Lords of the Treasury are in a lot of trouble.

    Were the fibs all told outside Parliament, or did she tell some to the Commons too ?

    That would likely be terminal.

    A rare event - an upcoming PMQs where we need to stock up on popcorn...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706
    edited 10:08AM
    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into UC. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Well what do you know. One bunch of liars has been replaced by another.

    Continuity Bojo.

    Hence the rise of NOTA parties like Reform and the Greens and the one that dare not speak its name.
    I’ve noticed that the attacks on Farage and Reform seem to have plateaued and now parties, certainly Labour, are turning their attention to the Greens. Even Ed Davey has attacked Polanski, rightly, for his Lib Dem flounce when not being selected for a seat.
    I could not see why Labour was attacking Reform when it was an existential threat to the Conservatives.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 299
    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,276
    Your Party drama #357

    They’ve expelled a bunch of SWP members. Sultana seems unhappy about this.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,962
    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    True, and all good points. However, government and parliament have a unique job no-one else is allowed to do - to legislate, amend, regulate, issue SIs and quantify.

    How long do you give any government, new in office in 2024, before the basics of how such things are 'right now' is not the responsibility of the past, but of the present government and parliament?

    I suggest roughly this, assuming no black swans: Within two years it is reasonable to expect everything the state undertakes to be responsible for is run competently and well.

    Within 3-4 years the legislative framework under which it wants to work should be in place and running; with the public having a clear idea of the direction of travel for the future.

    (So the gangs should be smashed and the small boats stopped pretty soon).

    It depends on your benchmarks, Kirk.

    Boris's government was corrupt, so you would expect removing it should fix that matter immediately. Truss's was batshit crazy and incompetent, so again dismissal puts that right straight away. The problems we face with the economy and state of public services are however more long term and are the cumulative result of protracted neglect. The last Chancellor to hand over an economy in decent repair was Ken Clarke and scant reward he got for it. Maybe if voters rewarded success more we'd get better government?

    Anyway I think it would be unreasonable to expect a new Government to fix the long term problems in a couple of years. Give me a call in three more and I'll let you know how I thought they got on.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606

    Your Party drama #357

    They’ve expelled a bunch of SWP members. Sultana seems unhappy about this.

    It is doomed to failure. I know someone who worked closely with Corbyn and I still laugh at some of his stories of ineptitude and chaos
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706
    edited 10:14AM

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.

    I'm personally quite upset that nothing similar to this is happening under this government - it's nothing idealogical, I just want governments to do general housekeeping and sensible reforms as a bare minimum.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 299
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.

    I'm personally quite upset that nothing similar to this is happening under this government - it's nothing idealogical, I just want governments to do general housekeeping and sensible reforms as a bare minimum.
    Is it not the case that it works a bit like that already? UC is a live system that interacts with salaries declared to HMRC and moves up and down accordingly to claimants.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791
    edited 10:16AM
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.

    I'm personally quite upset that nothing similar to this is happening under this government - it's nothing idealogical, I just want governments to do general housekeeping and sensible reforms as a bare minimum.
    Is it not the case that it works a bit like that already? UC is a live system that interacts with salaries declared to HMRC and moves up and down accordingly to claimants.
    That's true. That's why I like UC system - we should expand it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    Only this Labour government (I think feckless is the word of the morning) could manage to make a bad news story out of the OBR producing a better fiscal forecast than expected. That takes a special talent.

    For all their lack of political skills, this also highlights they have no champions in the press. Three quarters of the press are actively hostile and the other quarter meh about them. That is a first in my lifetime, and would challenge even skilled political communicators, let alone numpty ones.
    The last government had few champions also. Among the media who are reasonably fair to this government: Mirror, Guardian, BBC, Channel 4, ITV, New Statesman, Economist, FT.

    I don't follow the Sun, Mail or DT closely at all but I don't remember them being effusive about the last government.

    How would anyone start 'championing' the present government? They can't even champion themselves.

    (Anecdote: I was brought up in a DTelegraph and Times household, 60 years ago. My DT reading father said to me of the DT as it was then: their straight news is extensive and reliable; their editorial comment is rubbish; if you want the truth, read the city pages.)

    I think once upon a time it was only the tabloids that editorialised the news, with the broadsheets leaving the opinion to the opinion pieces. Of course you have E H Carr's principle about the narrative is about the selection and arranging of the facts, in this case stories.

    I think that is long gone, and the change is less than twenty years old. Pretty much all news is now an editorialisation of events, broadsheet, tabloid, gb news or the BBC. People want the news that coincides with their own views and wanted presented in that way, and if the legacy media don't do it they go elsewhere.

    The BBC generally does a better job of it, but it has in house sacred cow perspectives that are protected at all costs. Some of those have been exposed recently, but even then, they make a better stab.
    Exactly right. Is there a gap in the market for traditional news presentation (trad media, print or online?) with selection values which give an appearance of objectivity.

    The obvious places to try this would the Guardian or Times. Neither come close SFAICS. The BBC now falls between two stools; it doesn't do old style 'John Tusa' solemn objectivity but neither is it allowed to do sharp edged stuff like LBC (Simon Marks!) or Andrew Neil on Times radio.

    The other question is Why? I suspect the main reason is that opinions are free and facts are expensive.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791
    edited 10:20AM
    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2025/11/safe-savings-limit-rise-fscs/

    Am I the only personj to miss the rise in the FSCS limit to 120K? Edit: cash accounts only.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,897
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    Yes but the point is that a consequence of the ban is that over 16s will have to enter identification documents to social media companies. No way I'd do that.
    Given that big business algorithmic social media has similar brain-rotting effects on over 16s, reducing its use across the board might be good for us.

    Anyone know how the OSA is settling down?
    It did occur to me the other day that we've heard very little about it, compared to the speeches on here before it came. Would be interesting to have a balanced assessment.
    It’s the boiling frog stuff. Steadily being rolled out.

    For example, the governing body of a certain sport published a list of people who were banned from coaching and participating in events in any way. Gross misconduct, criminal behaviour etc.

    Several of them got their lawyers on it. Who made a case that under the OSA…

    That’s with the courts now.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,606
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    There’s a bit of a challenge with categorisation I think. Not all social media is alike. Some platforms are infinitely more damaging than others, for various reasons.

    TikTok and to a lesser extent YouTube (my daughter’s goggling at it currently) eat the brain by auto playing hour after hour of mindless content. Worse than multi-channel TV? Maybe not, but mobiles mean screen time can expand to fill most of the day.

    X, Bluesky and other political platforms encourage division and hate. To my mind they’re the most damaging to society, but the damage is also being done to adults.

    Instagram turns children and adults into body-obsessed poseurs.

    By contrast, I don’t think messaging apps like WhatsApp or Snapchat should be lumped in the same category. They are a mode of social expression and probably increase rather than reduce interaction with friends. Yes there are risks of online bullying, but you can set up text chats too which are essentially the same thing.

    Then there’s LinkedIn which despite the nauseating corporate nonsense that often fills it up is a largely harmless space for teenagers.

    But is it not the messaging apps where bullying (even to suicide) takes place, not to mention grooming by the paedos in Peter Kyle's warnings?
    Fair point. I think different types of platform need looking at in different ways. I worry much more about the TikTok brain rot for my children than messaging groups, but they’ve probably been lucky.

    Mind you I got roped into doing 5 TikTok videos talking about the budget in the last 3 weeks, so I suppose I’m part of the problem.
    Can't you share them with your chums on PB? Always a supportive audience
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,995
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    A major government IT project, you say? In 18 months, you say?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,955
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    Try politics. To do this throws up an infinity of stories (true in this case) of nice widows living on the state pension or little more who are paying IT while their total income is a tiny fraction of benefits families, untaxed, in the same street.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    They've made some slightly odd statements on state pension interaction with income tax since the budget. It does appear we will end up with a quadruple lock, but they give the impression they've only just realised it could be a problem to solve. There are plenty of untaxed benefits so shouldn't be a major issue for DWP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,221

    Ouch.

    Interview with Jeremy Corbyn as the Your Party conference starts in Liverpool…

    Are you friends with Zarah Sultana?

    We’re “colleagues in parliament”, he says.


    https://x.com/robpowellnews/status/1994699611794026766

    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,706
    edited 10:25AM

    algarkirk said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    True, and all good points. However, government and parliament have a unique job no-one else is allowed to do - to legislate, amend, regulate, issue SIs and quantify.

    How long do you give any government, new in office in 2024, before the basics of how such things are 'right now' is not the responsibility of the past, but of the present government and parliament?

    I suggest roughly this, assuming no black swans: Within two years it is reasonable to expect everything the state undertakes to be responsible for is run competently and well.

    Within 3-4 years the legislative framework under which it wants to work should be in place and running; with the public having a clear idea of the direction of travel for the future.

    (So the gangs should be smashed and the small boats stopped pretty soon).

    It depends on your benchmarks, Kirk.

    Boris's government was corrupt, so you would expect removing it should fix that matter immediately. Truss's was batshit crazy and incompetent, so again dismissal puts that right straight away. The problems we face with the economy and state of public services are however more long term and are the cumulative result of protracted neglect. The last Chancellor to hand over an economy in decent repair was Ken Clarke and scant reward he got for it. Maybe if voters rewarded success more we'd get better government?

    Anyway I think it would be unreasonable to expect a new Government to fix the long term problems in a couple of years. Give me a call in three more and I'll let you know how I thought they got on.
    But we all love (or at least respect) Ken Clarke now. I don't understand why subsequent Chancellors aren't interested in legacy. You'll be lucky to get 5 years; use that time to generate 20 years of being a legend, book sales, speeches, QT appearances, generally being smug. If you're tolerable enough you could even get a gig doing travel shows for the BBC.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    A major government IT project, you say? In 18 months, you say?
    Like ordinary widget manufacturers have to implement within weeks of setting up shop?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,465
    Roger said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Ratters said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT:

    @AndyJS

    I share your concerns about social media but there are dangers what the Australians are doing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/27/teens-high-court-injunction-australia-under-16s-social-media-ban

    From the link:

    “This issue should concern every Australian,” Ruddick said in a statement. “This ban is disproportionate and will trespass either directly or indirectly upon the rights of every Australian.

    “This ban is a direct assault on young people’s right to freedom of political communication. But it’s worse than that. Come December 10 all kids will be banned, and all the rest of us will have to prove our age and potentially provide ID just to access social media.”

    Under the ban, platforms can accept ID as one form of age check, but it must not be the sole method of identification.

    Both Meta and Snap Inc have said they will use ID checks as a fallback option in the event that facial age estimation incorrectly estimates an account to be held by someone under 16. Both companies have said they have methods of determining which accounts are likely to be held by children under 16."

    I'm not sure I see the problem. Social media is toxic for young people, especially in their formative teenage years. There is a huge amount of evidence of the developmental harm being near-constantly online does, which social media encourages through its algorithms combined with the normal social pressures of teenagehood.

    We ban the purchase of alcohol and smoking to a similar age for a similar reason.
    There’s a bit of a challenge with categorisation I think. Not all social media is alike. Some platforms are infinitely more damaging than others, for various reasons.

    TikTok and to a lesser extent YouTube (my daughter’s goggling at it currently) eat the brain by auto playing hour after hour of mindless content. Worse than multi-channel TV? Maybe not, but mobiles mean screen time can expand to fill most of the day.

    X, Bluesky and other political platforms encourage division and hate. To my mind they’re the most damaging to society, but the damage is also being done to adults.

    Instagram turns children and adults into body-obsessed poseurs.

    By contrast, I don’t think messaging apps like WhatsApp or Snapchat should be lumped in the same category. They are a mode of social expression and probably increase rather than reduce interaction with friends. Yes there are risks of online bullying, but you can set up text chats too which are essentially the same thing.

    Then there’s LinkedIn which despite the nauseating corporate nonsense that often fills it up is a largely harmless space for teenagers.

    But is it not the messaging apps where bullying (even to suicide) takes place, not to mention grooming by the paedos in Peter Kyle's warnings?
    Fair point. I think different types of platform need looking at in different ways. I worry much more about the TikTok brain rot for my children than messaging groups, but they’ve probably been lucky.

    Mind you I got roped into doing 5 TikTok videos talking about the budget in the last 3 weeks, so I suppose I’m part of the problem.
    Can't you share them with your chums on PB? Always a supportive audience
    My son told me “you’ve already got hate comments” but when I checked I realised his interpretation of hate comment sets a rather lower bar than on here.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,464
    Roger said:

    Ouch.

    Interview with Jeremy Corbyn as the Your Party conference starts in Liverpool…

    Are you friends with Zarah Sultana?

    We’re “colleagues in parliament”, he says.


    https://x.com/robpowellnews/status/1994699611794026766

    He sounds uncharacteristically defensive. He clearly loathes her. I wonder whether she'll turn up?
    While it's very difficult to read tone into a three-word quote, this reminds me very much of the biscuit question. He's not one to bubble over with warmth if he doesn't want to.

    Mind you, I'm not sure what I'd say if asked whether I was 'friends' with someone I worked with, not least someone less than half my age. This is nothing to do with my colleagues, who are affable and pleasant, and everything to do with the middle-aged Englishman's inability to categorise anyone as a 'friend' who hasn't been in that category for at least ten years and ideally since your teens.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,221

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    A major government IT project, you say? In 18 months, you say?
    That's likely to go wrong due to the short event Horizon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,791
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    Try politics. To do this throws up an infinity of stories (true in this case) of nice widows living on the state pension or little more who are paying IT while their total income is a tiny fraction of benefits families, untaxed, in the same street.
    Sure, but if one doesn't then one gets sob stories of *other* widows on the same income, only not so much SP but occupational/interest, who pay more tax than the aforesaid nice widows. As per discussion yesterday.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,897
    edited 10:29AM
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Battlebus said:

    algarkirk said:

    I suspect the trouble Reeves and Labour could be in over the budget will be not much related to the 'misleading'. Being misleading, when bits of a long narrative are examined, feels like par for the course to a cynical public.

    The story which will run and run is of a government whose emphasis looks as if its big priority, at the expense of workers, is those on benefits, with a sub text of a priority of raising taxes to fund higher pay in the public sector, and a sub sub text of cushioning pensioners.

    Thresholds + salary sacrifice + IHT on small businesses and farms + employers NI.

    The DM and Goodwin can run benefits abuse stories every day. They exist. IMHO they are right to scrap the 2 child cap; but the issue of whether too much money is going in benefits in the wrong direction remains.

    The dead hand of benefits (legislation) is the problem. Each benefit is legally paid according to the schedules set down in the various acts of Parliament. There will be bending of the rules in *some* cases which is currently measured at between 3%-4%. Also the benefits are paid after a lot of checking / cross checking / visits to a Tribunal so it's not that easy to get the largesse that the media suggests. The basic issue as has been laid out before is the need for a long term review of the legislation, its effects, and how does the nation provide a safety net for those that need help.

    There are also a number of cliff edges within benefits legislation such as with Pension Credit and all the extras that come with it. Triple lock, WFA, and Motability all create these edges which allow people to create wedge issues in the media and politics.

    But bear in mind, that the current welfare structure was designed over 20 years ago by someone called Ian Duncan Smith. He made a decent fist of it in that it has characteristics of an insurance scheme, but perhaps he needs to be called back to revisit his efforts and improve it.
    There's a bigger risk in the other direction - DWP reckon approx £25 billion a year in unclaimed benefits. So there is an ulterior motive in UK Government keeping as damned complicated as possible.

    I agree that IDS probably has a good legacy on the mechancis of welfare. A reforming government (which we do not have to any extent at all) would roll many more benefits and payments into it. The dream would be a Universal Income Tax to pair with Universal Credit, all on one system, that ensures there are no cliff-edges and everyone gets their correct payment/tax automatically.
    It is almost a quasi universal income, or could be made to work as such, but would need to abolition of tax free allowance to fund it.
    It would facilitate that in the future but all I'm suggesting is a system where HMRC, DWP speak to each other about household circumstances and it's all calculated together, alongside a much simpler income tax system (rolling CGT, NICs, IT, IHT etc into one tax) and finishing the job on UC - there are still too many payments that sit outside it.
    Indeed.

    I can't understand why Ms Reeves is even talking about removing IT from the basic state pension when all she needs tgo do is to ask SKS to order DWP to extract digit and implement PAYE on the state pensions (including SSP if not already done - I'm not sure about this), providing annual P60s, and calculating annual income like other human beings do.

    They've made some slightly odd statements on state pension interaction with income tax since the budget. It does appear we will end up with a quadruple lock, but they give the impression they've only just realised it could be a problem to solve. There are plenty of untaxed benefits so shouldn't be a major issue for DWP.
    Yes

    I caught a bit of program my wife was watching, yesterday. A journalist with a seated audience explaining through the budget, rather well.

    He’d interviewed Reeves, and was explaining the detail of what she’d said (using clips from the interview), popular misconceptions etc. Actually educative. Anyone know what the show was? Only heard some fragments - was in another room.

    Anyway, he showed that the statement about the basic pension not being taxed was really full of caveats about when/where/how.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,221
    Starmer won't fire her. Not unless she is shown to have done something completely crazy. He wouldn't survive it himself.

    However, she is now out of the running for the Labour leadership and likely to be replaced when he retires.

    Assuming, of course, she doesn't suddenly jack it all in out of frustration. But she doesn't seem to me to be a person who will willingly admit failure or inadequacy.
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