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It’s a bold strategy, let’s see if it pays off for Farage – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,763
edited October 31 in General
It’s a bold strategy, let’s see if it pays off for Farage – politicalbetting.com

Given that 40% of current Reform MPs are former Tory MPs and by my count 100% of current Reform MPs have been Tories in the past and every week seem hear about former Tory MPs defecting to Reform then I am not sure this strategy will be effective.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764
    edited October 31
    Hello

    Regarding the header, "never trust a Tory" is possibly sound advice for Farage.
    And of course, vice versa.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894
    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764
    I see it's still Biden's economy, and probably administration, too.

    Rollins: That if you are in a position where you cannot feed your family, and you are relying on that $187 a month for an average family in the SNAP program, we have failed you.

    Speaker Johnson: To clarify, when she says we have failed you, she means we the Democrats.

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1984269184961020186

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,830
    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,844
    MattW said:

    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428

    ‘Not obsessed’
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,272
    edited October 31

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    Frankly, I won't shed tears if they drown during their Reform baptism.

    It won't stop them turning a Has Been into a Never Will Be - Again.
  • eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Wait, what !!!

    Andrew had '40 prostitutes brought to five-star Thailand hotel room' during four-day taxpayer funded trip, author claims

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/andrew-prostitutes-thailand-trip-5HjdGCQ_2/

    Odd that someone knew about this in 2001 and sat on it all those years.
    I suspect you would need a lot of evidence to back up the claim and that evidence wouldn't exist at a level to satisfy lawyers.

    After yesterday though all stories about Andrew are going to be open game....
    Surely it has been open season for stories about Andrew for a few years now?

    Since the Maitlis interview at the very least, it would take a lot to make any journalist break a sweat about publishing a story about him.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,324
    To brilliant posters! Get onto it somebody. A sligtly sharper headline and slightly better chosen shots.

    PS. If posters choose to flag other posters doesn't natural justice dictate that we get told the names of our accusers?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764
    .

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    Is that the BBC sane washing that we keep hearing about ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,447
    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,345
    edited October 31

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    More joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth ... is quite a common point of view.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,257
    Interesting data from our friends at Vote-2012 UK. There have been 148 local by-elections since May 1st. Lab have won 13, Con 16, LD 45, and Ref 51. It is striking that of the Con wins none have been in the South East region.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,830

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Wait, what !!!

    Andrew had '40 prostitutes brought to five-star Thailand hotel room' during four-day taxpayer funded trip, author claims

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/andrew-prostitutes-thailand-trip-5HjdGCQ_2/

    Odd that someone knew about this in 2001 and sat on it all those years.
    I suspect you would need a lot of evidence to back up the claim and that evidence wouldn't exist at a level to satisfy lawyers.

    After yesterday though all stories about Andrew are going to be open game....
    Surely it has been open season for stories about Andrew for a few years now?

    Since the Maitlis interview at the very least, it would take a lot to make any journalist break a sweat about publishing a story about him.
    This story was being reported in August this year. I guess the news business is made easier if you can simply recycle stories.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-bombshell-claims-sex-35678527
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    And the Invacars were rubbish and all.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428

    ‘Not obsessed’
    It's Friday ! I am not aware of any more who have self-defenestrated this week.

    Though Lee Anderson's proposal that disabled drivers be put back into Invacars which were entirely banned in 2003 as being too dangerous to be allowed out in public is a little bit ... Reform ... and would likely cost more money rather than save any is interesting.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15240421/blue-three-wheelers-motability-Reform-benefits.html

    I find it interesting that it is getting debunked by the commenters at both the Telegraph and the Mail, whi are his target audience.

    Someone needs to ask him whether he would impose one on his wife.
  • Roger said:

    To brilliant posters! Get onto it somebody. A sligtly sharper headline and slightly better chosen shots.

    PS. If posters choose to flag other posters doesn't natural justice dictate that we get told the names of our accusers?

    I have never flagged anyone nor would I

    I will say it to your face @Roger when I disagree which is quite often, or more likely ignore your post
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764
    edited October 31
    Another example of why our armed forces can never afford much kit.

    3 x 🇬🇧 RAF E7 #Wedgetail for £2.28 billion
    3 x 🇸🇪 SwAF S 106 #GlobalEye for £0.795 billion

    https://x.com/GripenNews/status/1984275982161973725

    There isn't an enormous practical difference in capability - and if we'd just bought the Saab, the RAF would already be flying it, unlike the E7s we chose to go with.
  • ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,696
    edited October 31

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,595
    It’s a bit ironic that Princes Group has IPO’d in London today. I’m sure there is a joke in the fact that their best known product is princes tuna…
  • As a conservative can I just say it is good to see them leave the party and I will not miss any of them
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,696

    Roger said:

    To brilliant posters! Get onto it somebody. A sligtly sharper headline and slightly better chosen shots.

    PS. If posters choose to flag other posters doesn't natural justice dictate that we get told the names of our accusers?

    I have never flagged anyone nor would I

    I will say it to your face @Roger when I disagree which is quite often, or more likely ignore your post
    I have flagged a few posts over the years which I consider potentially libellous, racist, or similarly offensive against one of the other 8 legally protected characteristics. If only to flag them to the site owners who may be legally liable - accepting that my judgement may be wrong but better safe than sorry.

    But I agree with Roger, the flagger should be visible.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,830

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    More joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth ... is quite a common point of view.
    Yes. I think that's a factor.

    Perhaps in this case defection is a repudiation of what they did before they saw the light and began following St. Farage.

    Other parties should definitely use this as an attack line, but I wouldn't be relying on it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    edited October 31

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    I've done it in relevant places, but not here. I may email Agent Anderson this weekend and ask him for his costings. But data is not relevant, as it's about emotional dog whistles and demonising THEM.

    OTOH there's something to be said for allowing Reform UK to continue to demolish their own support base undisturbed, as a political tactic. He needs to do some surveys of his elderly wwc supporters, and find out how many use the scheme, or have relatives that do, and do so topped up with their earnings.

    If he wants fewer disabled people to use motor vehicles to get to work, perhaps he should campaign for a better selection of less expensive mobility aids to be available through the same channels, and for better facilities to be available for them to be practically useable in the safer society he says he wants to build.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    Oh bloody hell, now that really does make me think he and Reform hate the disabled.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,929

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    "But probably better than any of the alternatives?"
  • ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428

    ‘Not obsessed’
    It's Friday ! I am not aware of any more who have self-defenestrated this week.

    Though Lee Anderson's proposal that disabled drivers be put back into Invacars which were entirely banned in 2003 as being too dangerous to be allowed out in public is a little bit ... Reform ... and would likely cost more money rather than save any is interesting.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15240421/blue-three-wheelers-motability-Reform-benefits.html

    I find it interesting that it is getting debunked by the commenters at both the Telegraph and the Mail, whi are his target audience.

    Someone needs to ask him whether he would impose one on his wife.
    For those not of a certain age:

    https://petrolblog.com/articles/whatever-happened-ac-invacar

    "Production actually ceased in 1977, but they remained in use until 31 March 2003. The UK government deemed the Invacar to be unsafe and ordered a total destruction of all remaining examples. Some 50 cars a week were being crushed as it became illegal to drive an Invacar on any public road.

    A handful of Invacars slipped through the net, some of which are said to have V5 documents. I managed to track down a ‘barn find’ in Scotland which was available to buy should you wish to attempt that claimed 82mph top speed. Offers over £500 would have secured a piece of three-wheel history."

    "Most of these seemed to be permanently sat on the touchline of football grounds up and down the country. Indeed, a lasting memory of watching football in the 1980s is seeing these just behind the corner flag at each ground. I was always slightly impressed when the rain was pouring down and the owner of the car would be eating a football pie while the single wiper cleared the screen.

    A forerunner to the modern corporate box perhaps? Without the prawn sandwiches."

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,731
    Which PB usernames are these

    https://x.com/thetimes/status/1984301012035744167

    And they both Leon...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,696

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,272
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    And the Invacars were rubbish and all.
    An ad with "Reform: Back to the Future" showing an Invacar trying to get to 8.8 mph....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,696
    What is really neat about the Invacar is the way it identified and stigmatised disabled people so clearly.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,345
    edited October 31

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    If a pensioner wants to spend their pension on a car, they can, just as if a working person wants to spend their income on one they can.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225

    What is really neat about the Invacar is the way it identified and stigmatised disabled people so clearly.

    Exactly so. How many physically disabled are there in your town? Count the Invacars. All exactly the same kind of shitty pale blue colour like melamine crockery from an old-fashioned institutional home.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,402
    edited October 31

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I'd never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
    I did find myself wondering if he'd get upset if I said I'd spent some of my OAP on a train ticket.
  • .
    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
    I have no qualms with people spending their cash they worked for on motoring.

    I don't think cash that other people have worked for should be redirected to third parties to go on motoring.

    Get a job and pay for your own motor.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    edited October 31
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428

    ‘Not obsessed’
    It's Friday ! I am not aware of any more who have self-defenestrated this week.

    Though Lee Anderson's proposal that disabled drivers be put back into Invacars which were entirely banned in 2003 as being too dangerous to be allowed out in public is a little bit ... Reform ... and would likely cost more money rather than save any is interesting.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15240421/blue-three-wheelers-motability-Reform-benefits.html

    I find it interesting that it is getting debunked by the commenters at both the Telegraph and the Mail, whi are his target audience.

    Someone needs to ask him whether he would impose one on his wife.
    For those not of a certain age:

    https://petrolblog.com/articles/whatever-happened-ac-invacar

    "Production actually ceased in 1977, but they remained in use until 31 March 2003. The UK government deemed the Invacar to be unsafe and ordered a total destruction of all remaining examples. Some 50 cars a week were being crushed as it became illegal to drive an Invacar on any public road.

    A handful of Invacars slipped through the net, some of which are said to have V5 documents. I managed to track down a ‘barn find’ in Scotland which was available to buy should you wish to attempt that claimed 82mph top speed. Offers over £500 would have secured a piece of three-wheel history."

    "Most of these seemed to be permanently sat on the touchline of football grounds up and down the country. Indeed, a lasting memory of watching football in the 1980s is seeing these just behind the corner flag at each ground. I was always slightly impressed when the rain was pouring down and the owner of the car would be eating a football pie while the single wiper cleared the screen.

    A forerunner to the modern corporate box perhaps? Without the prawn sandwiches."

    Duck egg blue was also a camouflage colour used for photo reconnaissance Spitfires during WW2. They also used pink. There's an interesting story about how they got the Air Ministry to take notice.

    "When were these (unofficial) photographs (of German docks) taken? This morning, sir".

    The Daily Mail used a photo of a BMW Isetta to illustrate their article, for some reason.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,402
    edited October 31
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I'd never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
    I did find myself wondering if he'd get upset if I said I'd spent some of my OAP on a train ticket.
    Imagine if if he found out I was getting 42% off my new titanium gravel bike via a tax avoidance scheme...
  • Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I'd never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
    I did find myself wondering if he'd get upset if I said I'd spent some of my OAP on a train ticket.
    I couldn't care less what you spend it on.

    What I do care about is the triple lock and that benefits go up faster than wages.

    Wages should always go up by at least as much if not more than benefits, not the other way around.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,696

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
    Well there are some grey areas (benefits that rely on NI contributions) but generally I accept your point.

    However, however as you say "people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please". So what is wrong with people spending their Personal Independence Payments as they choose, if they choose to spend it on hiring a car from Motability?

    Earlier you said we should "just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income" (my bold).

    I say, that's exactly what the scheme requires hirers to do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Grok took some chivvying to identify more than one !

    https://x.com/reformexposed/status/1983609600785211428

    ‘Not obsessed’
    It's Friday ! I am not aware of any more who have self-defenestrated this week.

    Though Lee Anderson's proposal that disabled drivers be put back into Invacars which were entirely banned in 2003 as being too dangerous to be allowed out in public is a little bit ... Reform ... and would likely cost more money rather than save any is interesting.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15240421/blue-three-wheelers-motability-Reform-benefits.html

    I find it interesting that it is getting debunked by the commenters at both the Telegraph and the Mail, whi are his target audience.

    Someone needs to ask him whether he would impose one on his wife.
    For those not of a certain age:

    https://petrolblog.com/articles/whatever-happened-ac-invacar

    "Production actually ceased in 1977, but they remained in use until 31 March 2003. The UK government deemed the Invacar to be unsafe and ordered a total destruction of all remaining examples. Some 50 cars a week were being crushed as it became illegal to drive an Invacar on any public road.

    A handful of Invacars slipped through the net, some of which are said to have V5 documents. I managed to track down a ‘barn find’ in Scotland which was available to buy should you wish to attempt that claimed 82mph top speed. Offers over £500 would have secured a piece of three-wheel history."

    "Most of these seemed to be permanently sat on the touchline of football grounds up and down the country. Indeed, a lasting memory of watching football in the 1980s is seeing these just behind the corner flag at each ground. I was always slightly impressed when the rain was pouring down and the owner of the car would be eating a football pie while the single wiper cleared the screen.

    A forerunner to the modern corporate box perhaps? Without the prawn sandwiches."

    Duck egg blue was also a camouflage colour used for photo reconnaissance Spitfires during WW2. They also used pink. There's an interesting story about how they got the Air Ministry to take notice.

    "When were these photographs (of German docks) taken? This morning, sir".

    The Daily Mail used a photo of a BMW Isetta to illustrate their article, for some reason.
    DM? A bubble car? Are they trying to be deliberately misleading? Those were ultra-cool compared to an Invacar - and to be fair quite a few other things on the road at the time, though I shudder at the thought of a collision in any of them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,447
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    Oh bloody hell, now that really does make me think he and Reform hate the disabled.
    I doubt it's that as such- though it's definitely the effect here.

    The common thread seems to be hating now and hating the young.

    Everything was great 40/50/60 years ago (see also Robert Jenrick's eulogy for 80's football grounds), and any deviations from that are simply wrong.

    And yes, no change is cost-free. But overall, now is better than then. And the most important change, that people who were young in the 1970s are now old, isn't going to be reversed by any political party.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,988

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I'd never thought I'd see the day when Barty got upset about people spending their cash on motoring.
    I did find myself wondering if he'd get upset if I said I'd spent some of my OAP on a train ticket.
    I couldn't care less what you spend it on.

    What I do care about is the triple lock and that benefits go up faster than wages.

    Wages should always go up by at least as much if not more than benefits, not the other way around.
    I didn't know you were a librarian?
  • ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
    Well there are some grey areas (benefits that rely on NI contributions) but generally I accept your point.

    However, however as you say "people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please". So what is wrong with people spending their Personal Independence Payments as they choose, if they choose to spend it on hiring a car from Motability?

    Earlier you said we should "just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income" (my bold).

    I say, that's exactly what the scheme requires hirers to do.
    The PIP should not exist. Abolish it.

    If you need a car, pay for it from your salary.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    Oh bloody hell, now that really does make me think he and Reform hate the disabled.
    I doubt it's that as such- though it's definitely the effect here.

    The common thread seems to be hating now and hating the young.

    Everything was great 40/50/60 years ago (see also Robert Jenrick's eulogy for 80's football grounds), and any deviations from that are simply wrong.

    And yes, no change is cost-free. But overall, now is better than then. And the most important change, that people who were young in the 1970s are now old, isn't going to be reversed by any political party.
    Mm.

    Did Mr Jenrick wax lyrical about the Invacar behind the corner flags in the 1980s footie grounds?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,402

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
    Well there are some grey areas (benefits that rely on NI contributions) but generally I accept your point.

    However, however as you say "people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please". So what is wrong with people spending their Personal Independence Payments as they choose, if they choose to spend it on hiring a car from Motability?

    Earlier you said we should "just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income" (my bold).

    I say, that's exactly what the scheme requires hirers to do.
    You'd have thought he'd be delighted that disabled folk had an opportunity to increase their accessibility via the medium of the motorcar.

    For balance, the buses round here do an excellent job looking after people, and there are also some great charities providing adaptive bicycles.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    edited October 31
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    Oh bloody hell, now that really does make me think he and Reform hate the disabled.
    I don't think consequences are part of it. RefUK is a political marketing machine, without much of a feedback loop - values and principles and consequences are not part of the consideration.

    AIUI Lee Anderson's wife is a wheelchair user; I have seen him campaigning for better ramp access at his local Light Rail station (which I will not identify, but it is not Alfreton Parkway on the East Midlands Line where the recent upgrade is fairly good after 34 years but with one or two blatant faceplants).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,513
    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,272
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    The experience so far fro the councils it is "running" suggests it will be more a Conservative Party 0.2...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,243

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    I think this version of the rite will perhaps be more likely to mean the Conservative party will have its previous sins wiped out because people have left.
  • Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
    Well there are some grey areas (benefits that rely on NI contributions) but generally I accept your point.

    However, however as you say "people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please". So what is wrong with people spending their Personal Independence Payments as they choose, if they choose to spend it on hiring a car from Motability?

    Earlier you said we should "just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income" (my bold).

    I say, that's exactly what the scheme requires hirers to do.
    You'd have thought he'd be delighted that disabled folk had an opportunity to increase their accessibility via the medium of the motorcar.

    For balance, the buses round here do an excellent job looking after people, and there are also some great charities providing adaptive bicycles.
    Of course I am.

    Taxes on their incomes should be as low as viable so they can afford a motor from their own income.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,225
    AnneJGP said:

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    I think this version of the rite will perhaps be more likely to mean the Conservative party will have its previous sins wiped out because people have left.
    Scapegoats sent into the wilderness of Reform to carry the sins of the party people?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,702
    Nigelb said:

    Hello

    Regarding the header, "never trust a Tory" is possibly sound advice for Farage.
    And of course, vice versa.

    Vice versa? Never tory a trust???
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,006
    Nigelb said:

    Another example of why our armed forces can never afford much kit.

    3 x 🇬🇧 RAF E7 #Wedgetail for £2.28 billion
    3 x 🇸🇪 SwAF S 106 #GlobalEye for £0.795 billion

    https://x.com/GripenNews/status/1984275982161973725

    There isn't an enormous practical difference in capability - and if we'd just bought the Saab, the RAF would already be flying it, unlike the E7s we chose to go with.

    The reason we bought the Wedgetail was the promise of more capability than the Saab offering.

    Note that the US is pivoting to providing much of the capability of AWACS from LEO orbit.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,702
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    Also, an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation strategy isn't going to save significant money. Their financial plans don't work.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,598
    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    Who could have imagined that the US having 3950 Tomahawks instead of 4000 Tomahawks doesn't lead to Mexico or Canada thinking this would be a good chance to invade?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,830
    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    Not falling for this again. It only takes one phone call from Putin to put a stop to it. Trump administration is a bad joke.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,488
    Carnyx said:

    AnneJGP said:

    I'm not a great student of theology, but my understanding of baptism is that one is born again as a result of the rite, with your previous sins wiped clean.

    Perhaps there's a ritual for former Tories defecting to Reform that has a similar effect?

    I think this version of the rite will perhaps be more likely to mean the Conservative party will have its previous sins wiped out because people have left.
    Scapegoats sent into the wilderness of Reform to carry the sins of the party people?
    I am NOT doing the theology of baptism on a Friday teatime. :smiley:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,006
    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    The current production rate is quite low - something like 50-90 per year. So giving a significant number to Ukraine would mean either running down the stockpile or spending money on increasing production.

    My guess is that some in the Pentagon would like to get rid of the oldest, least capable airframes in the stockpile - some of them are decades old. And replace with new production. It's what's happened with other systems supplied by the West to Ukraine, after all.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,830
    edited October 31

    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    Who could have imagined that the US having 3950 Tomahawks instead of 4000 Tomahawks doesn't lead to Mexico or Canada thinking this would be a good chance to invade?
    If the US ever gets into a serious war stockpiles aren't going to help. They'll need production capacity.

    The Ukraine War is a great opportunity to develop production capacity to be ready for a conflict with China over Taiwan.

    (And 50 tomahawks aren't going to do a great deal for Ukraine. 50 tomahawks every month, ramping up to 50 every week, ramping up to 50 every day - now you're talking.)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,513

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    Also, an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation strategy isn't going to save significant money. Their financial plans don't work.
    I was interested in your earlier comments about the Dutch elections.

    The VVD is very much the British Conservative Party - it's shifted markedly away from "centrist" positions and is unlikely to be able to co-exist in a D66-led Government with the GL/PVDA - the VVD leader has some personal history.

    The days of Rutte being the archetypal centrist are long gone and of course the VVD was happy to be a partner with Gert Wilders, the PPV and NSC. The fact alone of the three VVD avoided big losses does make me wonder whether in the British scenario the Conservatives could survive being junior partners in a Reform-led coalition far better than the LDs did in a Conservative-led coalition but the parallels are imprecise.

    I don't know if the VVD will go into Government with D66, the CDA, the CU and the GL/PVDA - they have before but that was the party they were not the party they are.

    Indeed, the GL/PVDA had an awful result and may want to stay out of Government - who knows?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,006
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    If the UK government can move from the Feast-or-Famine? mode of spending, that would have a massive effect. We have seen, time after time, that when n=money is spent, it is done so in a reckless manner. Often the highest possible price for the least result.

    A classic of the genre - years ago, the local council dismantled a children's playground, in the corner of a small park. It was a bit tatty, admittedly. They moved the surveying play funnier to a park in a ward that voted for the majority on the council.

    A local journalist sniffed around.

    Overnight the storey went from "No money to maintain the playground" to "We found £30K to build a new playground"

    The playground in question was literally 10m by 10m.

    I watched them build it. Two guys, with a very battered flatbed truck, over a couple of days. Poured some concrete footings one day (from templates). Came back a bit later, boiled the fence and play equipment to the footings. I did some checking online - the play equipment, fencing etc was less than £10K.....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,324

    Roger said:

    To brilliant posters! Get onto it somebody. A sligtly sharper headline and slightly better chosen shots.

    PS. If posters choose to flag other posters doesn't natural justice dictate that we get told the names of our accusers?

    I have never flagged anyone nor would I

    I will say it to your face @Roger when I disagree which is quite often, or more likely ignore your post
    Well said and I'm sure you would say it to my face as you have many times! You might be flattered to know I never thought it was you. This insideous toad though prefers to remain anonymous.

    So please in the name of natural justice could the moderators who know the posters name reveal it and do it in full sight or explain why not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    If the UK government can move from the Feast-or-Famine? mode of spending, that would have a massive effect. We have seen, time after time, that when n=money is spent, it is done so in a reckless manner. Often the highest possible price for the least result.

    A classic of the genre - years ago, the local council dismantled a children's playground, in the corner of a small park. It was a bit tatty, admittedly. They moved the surveying play funnier to a park in a ward that voted for the majority on the council.

    A local journalist sniffed around.

    Overnight the storey went from "No money to maintain the playground" to "We found £30K to build a new playground"

    The playground in question was literally 10m by 10m.

    I watched them build it. Two guys, with a very battered flatbed truck, over a couple of days. Poured some concrete footings one day (from templates). Came back a bit later, boiled the fence and play equipment to the footings. I did some checking online - the play equipment, fencing etc was less than £10K.....
    I'm a bit puzzled. Is that a typing error or some kind of obscure slang I'm not familiar with?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,731
    Donald "No More Wars" Trump is about to invade Venezuela.

    Guaranteed peace prize now...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894
    Scott_xP said:

    Donald "No More Wars" Trump is about to invade Venezuela.

    Guaranteed peace prize now...

    He's gone completely Caracas at last.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,204
    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,006
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    If the UK government can move from the Feast-or-Famine? mode of spending, that would have a massive effect. We have seen, time after time, that when n=money is spent, it is done so in a reckless manner. Often the highest possible price for the least result.

    A classic of the genre - years ago, the local council dismantled a children's playground, in the corner of a small park. It was a bit tatty, admittedly. They moved the surveying play funnier to a park in a ward that voted for the majority on the council.

    A local journalist sniffed around.

    Overnight the storey went from "No money to maintain the playground" to "We found £30K to build a new playground"

    The playground in question was literally 10m by 10m.

    I watched them build it. Two guys, with a very battered flatbed truck, over a couple of days. Poured some concrete footings one day (from templates). Came back a bit later, boiled the fence and play equipment to the footings. I did some checking online - the play equipment, fencing etc was less than £10K.....
    I'm a bit puzzled. Is that a typing error or some kind of obscure slang I'm not familiar with?
    Auto incorrect having fun - "surviving play equipment"
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,513
    edited October 31
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    We point out here regularly areas of social and economic policy where significant reforms could bring out substantial improvements but, as you say, it;s doing the detailed thinking which seems to elude all parties or, rather, there are pockets of thinking across some areas but the holistic overview is often lacking.

    I mentioned this morning in response to a post from @Malmesbury about the problems some students and younger people have looking for work and a facet of that is multiple jobs or "poly-employment" (about 1.3 million people). That number has been rising since the pandemic and it's connected to the cost of living - if you can't survive on one job, you take a second (perhaps in a warehouse or similar) and the two jobs pays the rent, food, utilities or other costs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764

    Nigelb said:

    Hello

    Regarding the header, "never trust a Tory" is possibly sound advice for Farage.
    And of course, vice versa.

    Vice versa? Never tory a trust???
    No one - even a Tory defector - should ever trust Farage.

    But Tory a trust never also works.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,598
    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Isn't that, err, Tory policy as well?
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 319

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I rarely agree with you but Barry has a real problem with pensions!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    If the UK government can move from the Feast-or-Famine? mode of spending, that would have a massive effect. We have seen, time after time, that when n=money is spent, it is done so in a reckless manner. Often the highest possible price for the least result.

    A classic of the genre - years ago, the local council dismantled a children's playground, in the corner of a small park. It was a bit tatty, admittedly. They moved the surveying play funnier to a park in a ward that voted for the majority on the council.

    A local journalist sniffed around.

    Overnight the storey went from "No money to maintain the playground" to "We found £30K to build a new playground"

    The playground in question was literally 10m by 10m.

    I watched them build it. Two guys, with a very battered flatbed truck, over a couple of days. Poured some concrete footings one day (from templates). Came back a bit later, boiled the fence and play equipment to the footings. I did some checking online - the play equipment, fencing etc was less than £10K.....
    I'm a bit puzzled. Is that a typing error or some kind of obscure slang I'm not familiar with?
    You appear fully cognisant of the boiling the fence technique, though.
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    To brilliant posters! Get onto it somebody. A sligtly sharper headline and slightly better chosen shots.

    PS. If posters choose to flag other posters doesn't natural justice dictate that we get told the names of our accusers?

    I have never flagged anyone nor would I

    I will say it to your face @Roger when I disagree which is quite often, or more likely ignore your post
    Well said and I'm sure you would say it to my face as you have many times! You might be flattered to know I never thought it was you. This insideous toad though prefers to remain anonymous.

    So please in the name of natural justice could the moderators who know the posters name reveal it and do it in full sight or explain why not.
    Please ignore the Wrongun

    I want him to keep on thinking that I flagged him,
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,764

    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    The current production rate is quite low - something like 50-90 per year. So giving a significant number to Ukraine would mean either running down the stockpile or spending money on increasing production.

    My guess is that some in the Pentagon would like to get rid of the oldest, least capable airframes in the stockpile - some of them are decades old. And replace with new production. It's what's happened with other systems supplied by the West to Ukraine, after all.
    They've got well over 4k of them, so fifty fur Ukraine wouldn't make any kind of dent.

    And there's a lot of never, cheaper kit on the way, which might render full replacement a waste of effort.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,204
    edited October 31

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Isn't that, err, Tory policy as well?
    No. That is PRECISELY the point, the Tories are not proposing to deport immigrants with indefinite leave to remain Badenoch and Philp have confirmed, while Reform still are. Hence Farage's 'Never Trust a Tory' line
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,447

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Isn't that, err, Tory policy as well?
    Sounds like it's not very clear to anyone;

    A spokesman for Tory leader Kemi Badenoch signalled to journalists on Wednesday that proposals that could result in migrants settled in the UK having their indefinite leave to remain (ILR) revoked retrospectively was no longer Tory policy. But shadow home secretary Chris Philp later insisted this did not mean all of the party’s ILR plans had been thrown out, after it was seized upon by Reform UK...


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tories-deny-they-have-thrown-out-plans-to-toughen-up-indefinite-leave-to-remain/ar-AA1PrwXQ
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,598
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Isn't that, err, Tory policy as well?
    No. That is PRECISELY the point, the Tories are not proposing to deport immigrants with indefinite leave to remain Badenoch and Philp have confirmed, while Reform still are. Hence Farage's 'Never Trust a Tory' line
    They better make their mind up and get some consistency if that is true and they want that message to be heard. This is from 9 days ago. if you receive benefits you lose ILR. Not sure how that is different to Reforms you need a job to keep ILR and won't get benefits.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/oct/22/deporting-legally-settled-people-broadly-in-line-conservative-policy-kemi-badenoch

    Asked about Lam’s comments, Badenoch’s spokesperson said some had been “pulled out of context”. He said: “She said there are a large number of people who came to this country legally but shouldn’t have been able to do so. The leader of the opposition agrees with that.”

    Highlighting the party’s plan to strip ILR from people who receive benefits, who commit a crime or whose income falls below £38,700 for six months or longer, he said: “I think that’s broadly in line with what Katie said and that is the Conservative party policy.”
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,048
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    "But probably better than any of the alternatives?"
    :D
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    If the UK government can move from the Feast-or-Famine? mode of spending, that would have a massive effect. We have seen, time after time, that when n=money is spent, it is done so in a reckless manner. Often the highest possible price for the least result.

    A classic of the genre - years ago, the local council dismantled a children's playground, in the corner of a small park. It was a bit tatty, admittedly. They moved the surveying play funnier to a park in a ward that voted for the majority on the council.

    A local journalist sniffed around.

    Overnight the storey went from "No money to maintain the playground" to "We found £30K to build a new playground"

    The playground in question was literally 10m by 10m.

    I watched them build it. Two guys, with a very battered flatbed truck, over a couple of days. Poured some concrete footings one day (from templates). Came back a bit later, boiled the fence and play equipment to the footings. I did some checking online - the play equipment, fencing etc was less than £10K.....
    I'm a bit puzzled. Is that a typing error or some kind of obscure slang I'm not familiar with?
    You appear fully cognisant of the boiling the fence technique, though.
    You mean, I'm a hot poster?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,272
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Donald "No More Wars" Trump is about to invade Venezuela.

    Guaranteed peace prize now...

    He's gone completely Caracas at last.
    Everybody knows you never go full Caracas....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,130
    Whilst I wouldn't hang and gibbet them, I'm not sure that daubing Stonehenge should be a penalty free act.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,006
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The substantive question is whether Reform will become the Conservative Party 2.0 or whether it is a genuinely new political movement based on a nationalist, anti-immigration social conservatism. If it tries to be, in German terms, both AfD and BSW, it will trip over its own internal contradictions.

    Looking for public sector savings is all well and good but if the only way to achieve that is via actual reductions in services, I can see problems ahead for Reform's political leadership as it will become detached from its voting base. Saving millions (or is it billions, who knows?) via an aggressive anti-immigration and deportation policy will work only if the savings aren't frittered on tax cuts but are spent on those services from which the "nativist" viewpoint benefits (health, education, law and order etc).

    As parties grow and attract more support, the "tent" becomes bigger until it collapses - we've seen that regularly.

    It is not the only way to do it - one example is the Rental Regulation Model I mentioned earlier.

    But that requires rationality, and no one is interested in doing the hard yards of detailed thinking.
    We point out here regularly areas of social and economic policy where significant reforms could bring out substantial improvements but, as you say, it;s doing the detailed thinking which seems to elude all parties or, rather, there are pockets of thinking across some areas but the holistic overview is often lacking.

    I mentioned this morning in response to a post from @Malmesbury about the problems some students and younger people have looking for work and a facet of that is multiple jobs or "poly-employment" (about 1.3 million people). That number has been rising since the pandemic and it's connected to the cost of living - if you can't survive on one job, you take a second (perhaps in a warehouse or similar) and the two jobs pays the rent, food, utilities or other costs.
    Which goes back to the comments by some, allegedly progressive people about the shortage of cheap labour.

    By which they mean, jobs at below minimum wage. There is enormous competition for minimum wage jobs at the moment, it seems.

    I do wonder whether we are seeing a massive disfunction in the job market - after all we have GP roles empty and qualified GPs unable to get a job. Has the enshifitication of HR (See copy and pasta LinkedIn and "AI") completely collapsed things?

    A straw in the wind - the manager of the chain restaurant my daughter got a job at, said that the torrent of applications he got via corporate were useless. "More than half" didn't answer the phone number on the CV....
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,820
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @natashabertrand.bsky.social‬

    New: The Pentagon cleared giving Ukraine long-range Tomahawk missiles after assessing that it would not negatively impact US stockpiles, despite Trump suggesting earlier this month that the US might not have enough to give away. Final decision largely political now.

    https://bsky.app/profile/natashabertrand.bsky.social/post/3m4iy7tsxd225

    The current production rate is quite low - something like 50-90 per year. So giving a significant number to Ukraine would mean either running down the stockpile or spending money on increasing production.

    My guess is that some in the Pentagon would like to get rid of the oldest, least capable airframes in the stockpile - some of them are decades old. And replace with new production. It's what's happened with other systems supplied by the West to Ukraine, after all.
    They've got well over 4k of them, so fifty fur Ukraine wouldn't make any kind of dent.

    And there's a lot of never, cheaper kit on the way, which might render full replacement a waste of effort.
    I imagine the Venezuelan SMO will eat a lot of the stockpile. Also, the Trump administration will float almost anything a few months before upcoming negotiations the anything will then be dropped a week after and the cycle continues. Seems a reasonable strategy to keep the media occupied, the Russians on edge and the Ukrainians desperate,
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,048
    edited October 31
    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    It is not a vile policy at all.

    It is a simple matter of timing. The Boriswave (that even Starmer admits was hugely excessive) cannot be granted ILR, allowing them to claim benefits and bring dependents, who will also claim benefits. No way, no how.

    That entailed the Tories and Reform having a policy that allowed them to rescind ILR, because the Boriswave migrants would have been granted ILR already when they got into power.

    Now that Labour has announced a 10 year delay, Kemi no longer sees the need for the policy, and Nigel still does.

    I find the Never Trust a Tory bit to be largely panto.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,894

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Donald "No More Wars" Trump is about to invade Venezuela.

    Guaranteed peace prize now...

    He's gone completely Caracas at last.
    Everybody knows you never go full Caracas....
    If only Donald Trump had never gone full retard...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,598

    ydoethur said:

    Putting the likes of Mad Nad and Lee Anderthal in your advertising campaign to show that ReFuk is full not only of ex-Tories but the maddest and stupidest ex-Tories?

    How dare you criticise sir? It is a strategy of pure genius.

    By Keir Starmer.

    Have we done Anderson's plan to being back Invacars to save money on Motability?

    Unstable, outdated and dangerous, oh you can fill in the punchline.
    How about we just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income?

    If someone needs a wheelchair then that is different, but a vehicle? Pay for it yourself.
    Barty, that is exactly what the Motability scheme is. People pay for the cars they hire out of their own income.

    Unless, of course you feel Personal Independence Payment is not 'their own income'. But then presumably you'd say the same about Child Benefit, State Retirement Benefit, Pension Credit, Attendance Allowance... etc.? Not the recipient's income to spend as they wish.
    Your own income is income you go to work and earn.

    Not one of those is their own income, no.
    Ok please advise how you (a libertarian?) propose to dictate how people should spend their State Pension for example?

    It's weird how those on the right bleat on about left-wing statism but whilst at the same time wanting to interfere with everyone else's life.
    I don't, people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please.

    While being grateful they are getting money they have not worked for, paid for by taxes on someone else's income they actually have worked for.

    But let us never pretend that benefits and earned incomes are the same thing.
    Well there are some grey areas (benefits that rely on NI contributions) but generally I accept your point.

    However, however as you say "people should spend their benefits like the pension as they please". So what is wrong with people spending their Personal Independence Payments as they choose, if they choose to spend it on hiring a car from Motability?

    Earlier you said we should "just abolish the scheme altogether and get people to pay for their own transport out of their own income" (my bold).

    I say, that's exactly what the scheme requires hirers to do.
    No. The VAT exemption roughly halves the lease cost.
  • bobbobbobbob Posts: 142
    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Ok so what is your plan to solve the Tory immigrant crisis ? “ Whoops we ‘accidentally’ let 3 million people in can’t do anything now lol” is not an answer

    This country is sick of soft open borders pro immigration wets

    The target should be negative net migrants vs 2010 numbers
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,204
    bobbob said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Ok so what is your plan to solve the Tory immigrant crisis ? “ Whoops we ‘accidentally’ let 3 million people in can’t do anything now lol” is not an answer

    This country is sick of soft open borders pro immigration wets

    The target should be negative net migrants vs 2010 numbers
    Net migration is already falling due to the tighter visa wage requirements Sunak and Cleverly brought in.

    It doesn't mean you need to go full BNP as well
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,420
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Isn't that, err, Tory policy as well?
    No. That is PRECISELY the point, the Tories are not proposing to deport immigrants with indefinite leave to remain Badenoch and Philp have confirmed, while Reform still are. Hence Farage's 'Never Trust a Tory' line
    This policy going forward was changed yesterday. Katie Lam was on message. Naughty Tories!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,420

    Taz said:

    Wait, what !!!

    Andrew had '40 prostitutes brought to five-star Thailand hotel room' during four-day taxpayer funded trip, author claims

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/andrew-prostitutes-thailand-trip-5HjdGCQ_2/

    As a fair minded and objective observer on the Royal Family I have to say I would need a better source than Andrew Lownie.
    Andrew Windsor? :lol:

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,204

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    It is not a vile policy at all.

    It is a simple matter of timing. The Boriswave (that even Starmer admits was hugely excessive) cannot be granted ILR, allowing them to claim benefits and bring dependents, who will also claim benefits. No way, no how.

    That entailed the Tories and Reform having a policy that allowed them to rescind ILR, because the Boriswave migrants would have been granted ILR already when they got into power.

    Now that Labour has announced a 10 year delay, Kemi no longer sees the need for the policy, and Nigel still does.

    I find the Never Trust a Tory bit to be largely panto.
    Care workers have already been banned from bringing dependents in
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,598
    HYUFD said:

    bobbob said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Ok so what is your plan to solve the Tory immigrant crisis ? “ Whoops we ‘accidentally’ let 3 million people in can’t do anything now lol” is not an answer

    This country is sick of soft open borders pro immigration wets

    The target should be negative net migrants vs 2010 numbers
    Net migration is already falling due to the tighter visa wage requirements Sunak and Cleverly brought in.

    It doesn't mean you need to go full BNP as well
    If you want to know why the Conservative party are at their lowest point ever, this is it.

    You are divided between people who think immigration is the root of all our problems and those that are broadly content with most of it, bar the boats and hotels. So your policies vary week to week, your messaging is unclear and confusing, and you lose the trust and respect of both groups.

    Make your mind up and stick with it. Don't flirt with the other group whichever path you take.
  • bobbobbobbob Posts: 142
    HYUFD said:

    bobbob said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    Ok so what is your plan to solve the Tory immigrant crisis ? “ Whoops we ‘accidentally’ let 3 million people in can’t do anything now lol” is not an answer

    This country is sick of soft open borders pro immigration wets

    The target should be negative net migrants vs 2010 numbers
    Net migration is already falling due to the tighter visa wage requirements Sunak and Cleverly brought in.

    It doesn't mean you need to go full BNP as well
    So there are fewer migrants in the uk than in 2010 ? Or are UK migrant numbers still increasing ?

    What is the alternative plan to reduce the number of migrants in the UK ? Not reduce the RATE of increase but reduce them full stop. No one else seems to have one
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,048
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Reform confirm they would deport even immigrants with indefinite leave to remain, a pretty vile policy.

    Given most of their voters and MPs are ex Tories not a great tactic from Farage to dismiss them either

    It is not a vile policy at all.

    It is a simple matter of timing. The Boriswave (that even Starmer admits was hugely excessive) cannot be granted ILR, allowing them to claim benefits and bring dependents, who will also claim benefits. No way, no how.

    That entailed the Tories and Reform having a policy that allowed them to rescind ILR, because the Boriswave migrants would have been granted ILR already when they got into power.

    Now that Labour has announced a 10 year delay, Kemi no longer sees the need for the policy, and Nigel still does.

    I find the Never Trust a Tory bit to be largely panto.
    Care workers have already been banned from bringing dependents in
    Had they been granted ILR, they would have not been banned anymore.
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