Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Which is why there are significant numbers of Jews protesting the Gaza Genocide, both in Britain and in Israel.
Zack Polanski being an obvious example for instance.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
It is completely different.
Hamas are the government of Gaza, in control of Gaza. To be at war with Hamas is to be at war with Gaza.
Hamas is to Gaza what Putin and his regime is to Russia.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Then you're completely wrong and racist.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. The IDF has bugger all to do with Jews.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
The two have been conflated by all sorts of people on different sides of the fence for their own ends. Conversely Jewish Grandees on the TV have been suggesting we should isolate ourselves from what is going on in Gaza except in consideration of what Hamas did on October 7th. That is all quite complicated.
My own view is Netanyahu is not representative of British Jewry, and British Jews and British Muslims should be allowed to go about their lawful business unhindered. Starmer and Mahmood can do something about that, and quickly.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
Very early on, someone tried to join a march with a banner that called for Hamas to free the hostages. They were turned away.
It's very clear what these demonstrations are.
Not that I'm doubting you for a second but have you a link for that?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
Hamas is the government of Palestine. Hamas is the one hiding amongst Palestinians. Hamas starting this war by targeting women and children - a war crime. Hamas are to blame for everything that is happening in Gaza.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No. Corbyn's conflation when he was LOTO was with Netanyahu's Government and British Jews.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Then you're completely wrong and racist.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. The IDF has bugger all to do with Jews.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
Hamas is the government of Palestine. Hamas is the one hiding amongst Palestinians. Hamas starting this war by targeting women and children - a war crime. Hamas are to blame for everything that is happening in Gaza.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
It may not be what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing, but it;s what they're doing.
They should grow up and realise that.
I found the far-right protests pretty intimidating, as did many others. Perhaps they shouldn't protest either?
Of course they shouldn't.
But.
If we all carry on protesting because we're justified in doing so, the cycle just keeps going and keeps getting louder, as we're seeing.
Even if it's true that the other lot really ought to step back first, none of us can make that happen. The only way to break the feedback loop is to break it ourselves.
To get inside the head of those protestors - they highly sensitive to any attempt to suppress their activities. The perception is the government is looking for any excuse to shut them down and this is the latest attempt to do so.
There are endless clips of Netanyahu's government advocating for exactly that and so it serves as confirmation that the government is simply doing his bidding.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
I obviously misunderstood your question then. Could you rephrase it more clearly please.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I can see a flaw in your theory.
The Tories so far jumping ship to reform seem to be the madder element of the Conservative Party. Those Conservatives who were uniquely responsible for breaking Britain.
Well aware of the flaw in the argument about skill sets. There is another flaw which is prevalent to all governments which is you can legislate to your hearts content (Rwanda is safe etc) but you have to deliver using a competent civil service and a scrutinising judiciary.
Or we could just cancel future elections until it is all sorted out ;-)
It made me curious enough to look up the safest seats in the country. Which is the Lib Dem stronghold of Twickenham - Cable's old stomping ground. In fact, there are 3 South West London Lib Dem seats in the top 8 safest seats, including where I live.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Don't know what the schooling is like in England but we were warned about exactly this kind of narrative when I was aged about 15. One of the core principles generated after WWIi was that no provocation can justify what we see in Gaza now - and I don't think any honest reader of the genocide convention can come to an alternative conclusion.
If you want to abandon that principle - fine. But be up front about it.
Wales becoming a contest between Plaid and Reform would be depressing.
Wales under Labour has been pretty depressing by all accounts.
It's not been a good thing that there hasn't been a change in government in Wales, and I wouldn't want to waste any time trying to defend Labour in Wales, but two flavours of nationalist grievance to choose from does look like a straight downgrade.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
Hamas is the government of Palestine. Hamas is the one hiding amongst Palestinians. Hamas starting this war by targeting women and children - a war crime. Hamas are to blame for everything that is happening in Gaza.
Japan is facing a shortage of Asahi products, including beer and bottled tea, as the drinks giant grapples with the impact of a major cyber-attack that has impacted its operations in the country.
Most of the Asahi Group's factories in Japan have been at a standstill since Monday, after the attack hit its ordering and delivering systems, the firm has said.
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Yeah it’s a bit like Unite Against Fascism here, for example. I should be able to support it, as I obviously dislike fascism like all right minded people. But I can’t, because it’s a Socialist Workers Party construct which uses fascism as a label to attack other things as well.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
I obviously misunderstood your question then. Could you rephrase it more clearly please.
Israelis are to the IDF what Gazans are to Hamas.
Personally, I think Hamas must have a fairly decent amount of support in Gaza otherwise they'd have been overthrown sometime ago. And, yes, the Israelis keep electing Netanyahu. Israel is my go to example for why PR is bad.
Point is, someone can make the case that the distinction between Hamas and Gazans is quite blurred. You might disagree with that, but you don't get to bring Jews into the equation.
John Rentoul @JohnRentoul · 36m Good analysis of @YouGov MRP poll by Gareth of the Vale: 200 of 631 GB seats are “toss-ups” (parties within 5 points of each other)
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Weird that you just used the word Israelis rather than the word Jews.
Why did you conflate the IDF with Jews rather than Israel, and Hamas with Gazans rather than Islam, before?
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Read the article you just posted:
"Antifa is not a unified organization but rather a movement without a hierarchical leadership structure, comprising multiple autonomous groups and individuals. The movement is loosely affiliated, and has no chain of command, with antifa groups instead sharing "resources and information about far-right activity across regional and national borders through loosely knit networks and informal relationships of trust and solidarity." "
ANTIFA is a fairy story. Antifa is an ideal - to be anti-fascist. I am antifa. This "ANTIFA" terrorist organisation is who? Where? What? "Autonomous Groups and Individuals" - not connected to each other other than through an ideal and "solidarity"
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
There is an Antifa movement in the US - lose and very much self declared. As opposed to just everyone who is AntiFascist.
They are not especially numerous, and not the biggest part of the Anti-MAGA groups.
Their thing is direct action - generally of low level stuff like telling employers about far-right types criminal convictions and associations. Occasionally, they seem to go as far as damaging property and equipment owned by ICE.
Think the Black Blok types who hang around demonstrations in the UK - they aren't liberal democrats, but definitely aren't anyones definition of a terrorist, either.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
Hamas is the government of Palestine. Hamas is the one hiding amongst Palestinians. Hamas starting this war by targeting women and children - a war crime. Hamas are to blame for everything that is happening in Gaza.
'They made me do this bad thing.'
This is the future, if not already the present.
Yeah, shit happens in war, which is why it should always be the last resort.
We're already at that last resort in the Middle East. After the unconditional surrender of Hamas, hopefully whatever is left can be rebuilt, but the war has to be won first.
Morning all. The MRPs, whilst we are a long way out from an election (probably!) I think are giving a pretty good flavour of where we are on current polling. On the local by elections each week i am keeping an eye on how the results stack up against the ward by ward analysis of 2024 and the current projected ward results from Nowcast (modelled on polling averages). Last nights results were remarkably consistent with current projections - the Narrow hold in Ellesmere Port, the Reform gains in Faversham/Maidstone, Wigan and Brentwood all modelled pretty well. Based on it, im starting to reconsider my thought that the LDs will fall back maybe, their hold on what they took does seem more solid perhaps, although MRPs dont model tactical unwind so im not reversing my thoughts entirely, but i think their seat floor on a 12,2% repeat is higher than i previously considered. We will see. Anyway, back to the projections. To use Hutton South in Brentwood as an example, in 2024 it voted Con 42 Ref 24. Curremtly projected Ref 46 Con 29. Voted last night Ref 45 Con 31. Consistent with Ref high 20s to 30, Con high teens nationally
Ben Walker of New Statesman campaigned in Ellesmere Port for last nights vote and made an interesting observation on the fat 41% turnout - many normal non voters are now voters for Reform
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes. I would vote for a PR coupon candidate who pledged to implement STV, and then call a new general election as soon as possible.
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Yeah it’s a bit like Unite Against Fascism here, for example. I should be able to support it, as I obviously dislike fascism like all right minded people. But I can’t, because it’s a Socialist Workers Party construct which uses fascism as a label to attack other things as well.
Its not remotely like UAF.
We know who UAF are. It has a secretariat, membership, officers, a structure.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
I obviously misunderstood your question then. Could you rephrase it more clearly please.
Israelis are to the IDF what Gazans are to Hamas.
Personally, I think Hamas must have a fairly decent amount of support in Gaza otherwise they'd have been overthrown sometime ago. And, yes, the Israelis keep electing Netanyahu. Israel is my go to example for why PR is bad.
Point is, someone can make the case that the distinction between Hamas and Gazans is quite blurred. You might disagree with that, but you don't get to bring Jews into the equation.
Hamas ruled Gaza the same way dictatorships rule anywhere. Threat of death to anyone who gets in the way - which rapidly escalates to actual death.
See the way they took over in the first place. It wasn't an election.
A fascinating little vid 9 minute vid about Ladybower Reservoir filling up again, by a Youtuber who investigates rural landscapes and industrial structures/remains.
It also leaves her a hostage to fortune if it turns out he had external orders.
THREE people have been arrested on suspicion of commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism.
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
A new party surging in the polls. An unpopular PM lost, looking rudderless. Labour and Tories slumping in the polls and no idea what to do. The left fracturing (again).
No I'm not talking 2025, this is 1981. The Alliance were set to sweep to victory in 1983/84, according to all the polls. There were as high as 50%. And yet in the end it fell away, and the incumbent party won second term.
Maybe its hopism on my part, but I think Reform will not be able to sustain their basket of deplorables intact. The contradictions will be too much in the long term.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
Or Ireland. Which has elected centre right governments for the existence of the state. Which I would have thought you’d like?
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
How can you misuse a term that has no definition? (As we are reliably told)
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
Or Ireland. Which has elected centre right governments for the existence of the state. Which I would have thought you’d like?
I like democracy more than I like to win, and I stand by the system whether we win or lose.
Those who only go with the system they think will see them win are not true democrats.
A futher thought. Kent and Essex will be a bloodbath for Conservatives and a triumph for Reform. Kemi might survive as Saffron Walden is the posh end and naybe they can get enough of the vote to turn out in seats like Maldon or in Kent Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and the Weald but it will be bleak for them. Rural Suffolk and Norfolk might be easier to work and defend where held in the East
It also leaves her a hostage to fortune if it turns out he had external orders.
THREE people have been arrested on suspicion of commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism.
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
What the hell is wrong with her?
If you minimise the problem then it’s easier to pretend it’s not a problem.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
Just to spin your head, what about British citizens who serve in the IDF?
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, not all Israelis support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, but some British Jews serve in the IDF
2 kids I played sport with at a very diverse club, went to a Jewish school and, after A levels, they left to do national service in the IDF. I still find it quite distressing that these people I'd known since early teenage, who were well-liked members of a group with family roots from the UK, Asia, Turkey etc, had almost certainly been complicit in human rights abuses. (or at least not spoken out).
Yes based on the Yougov MRP the next general election looks like a hung parliament and a choice between Reform with most seats propped up by the Tories or Labour with most seats propped up by the LDs and SNP. At the moment Farage has the edge.
As Gareth notes, forget pensioners who are now increasingly going Reform. The Tory core vote under Kemi is now Jews, high earning Hindus and some middle class Leavers concentrated around some wealthy bits of London and a few wealthy rural areas
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Read the article you just posted:
"Antifa is not a unified organization but rather a movement without a hierarchical leadership structure, comprising multiple autonomous groups and individuals. The movement is loosely affiliated, and has no chain of command, with antifa groups instead sharing "resources and information about far-right activity across regional and national borders through loosely knit networks and informal relationships of trust and solidarity." "
ANTIFA is a fairy story. Antifa is an ideal - to be anti-fascist. I am antifa. This "ANTIFA" terrorist organisation is who? Where? What? "Autonomous Groups and Individuals" - not connected to each other other than through an ideal and "solidarity"
It's the bogeyman.
Yes, and you are aligning yourself with those groups.
And again, you can be an anti-fascist and not agree with those groups. In fact, you can be an anti-fascist and be on the right.
So essentially you are saying that anyone who does not agree with that 'movement' is not anti-fascist. Which is quite a dangerous road to go down.
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Yeah it’s a bit like Unite Against Fascism here, for example. I should be able to support it, as I obviously dislike fascism like all right minded people. But I can’t, because it’s a Socialist Workers Party construct which uses fascism as a label to attack other things as well.
Its not remotely like UAF.
We know who UAF are. It has a secretariat, membership, officers, a structure.
Show me the same for ANTIFA.
“Bit like” does not mean “the same as”. That’s why I wrote “bit like”…
A futher thought. Kent and Essex will be a bloodbath for Conservatives and a triumph for Reform. Kemi might survive as Saffron Walden is the posh end and naybe they can get enough of the vote to turn out in seats like Maldon or in Kent Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and the Weald but it will be bleak for them. Rural Suffolk and Norfolk might be easier to work and defend where held in the East
Depending on what Rosie Duffield decides to do Labour will hold Canterbury, based on local observation and the MRP anyway
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
Just to spin your head, what about British citizens who serve in the IDF?
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, not all Israelis support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, but some British Jews serve in the IDF
2 kids I played sport with at a very diverse club, went to a Jewish school and, after A levels, they left to do national service in the IDF. I still find it quite distressing that these people I'd known since early teenage, who were well-liked members of a group with family roots from the UK, Asia, Turkey etc, had almost certainly been complicit in human rights abuses. (or at least not spoken out).
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
Just to spin your head, what about British citizens who serve in the IDF?
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, not all Israelis support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, but some British Jews serve in the IDF
2 kids I played sport with at a very diverse club, went to a Jewish school and, after A levels, they left to do national service in the IDF. I still find it quite distressing that these people I'd known since early teenage, who were well-liked members of a group with family roots from the UK, Asia, Turkey etc, had almost certainly been complicit in human rights abuses. (or at least not spoken out).
One of my wife's cousins served in the IDF. He has recently had a big falling-out with his father about Israel and Netanyahu.
My wife finds him very objectionable, needless to say.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
That would be a County / Regional Constabulary decision, surely? Do they have the power to do an outright ban at Chief Constable level? Could she apply to a Court for an Injunction?
We keep our law enforcement and judicial process out of the hands of direct enforcement by politicians, I think. And the trend has been away from political policing for half a century, fore example as we see in the Home Secretary losing their involvement in setting lifetime tariffs.
There are certain roles left for the Attorney General (who acts in a quasi-judicial capacity?), and the Home Secretary (around extradition, and "persona non-grata".
Imo political separation from policing is one of the things Farage, Jenrick & Co are practically trying to undermine by their various claims and demands, by linking the PM to legal action against their friends and fellow travellers.
There may be other roles for the Home Secretary that I have not mentioned - do they have a role in identifying where riot charges should be used eg in the case of street demonstrations turning into criminality and serious potential violence?
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
Or Ireland. Which has elected centre right governments for the existence of the state. Which I would have thought you’d like?
I like democracy more than I like to win, and I stand by the system whether we win or lose.
Those who only go with the system they think will see them win are not true democrats.
I was answering your point that PR results in unstable governments. You, as you always do, responded to the the point you’d like to have been made, not the one that was.
It also leaves her a hostage to fortune if it turns out he had external orders.
THREE people have been arrested on suspicion of commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism.
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
What the hell is wrong with her?
Your'e taking that a bit out of context.
This is the fuller quote: The only person responsible for this devastating attack on our Jewish community is the attacker himself. The police have made three additional arrests, and it’s important that they are allowed to continue with their investigations and our process of justice is allowed to take its course. That is separate to what is happening in the Middle East..
You can make the case that she expressed herself clumsily, but the distinction she was trying to draw is pretty clear.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
No way.
That provides an interesting pointer to the constraints on tactical voting to keep Reform out. What proportion of LibDems voters would vote Tory, and vice versa ? And LibDem / Labour ?
Surely higher than Lab / Tory.
I think I would tactically vote for anyone other than the Tories if in a seat with a 2 way battle one of whom is Reform.
But as there's a significant risk that the Tories would support a minority Reform government there's no point in a tactical vote for them. It might as well be a Reform vote.
What if Cleverly replaced Kemi? He has committed to keep the net zero 2050 target unlike Kemi and Farage and in the leadership election Cleverly opposed leaving the ECHR unlike Jenrick and Farage and now it seems Kemi
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Don't you mean conflating the IDF with all Israelis?
No.
Can you explain that please? Or do you think all Israelis are fair game?
It is the IDF that is committing war crimes, not all Israelis.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
Right, so you should have answered yes to my question.
Just to spin your head, what about British citizens who serve in the IDF?
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, not all Israelis support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, but some British Jews serve in the IDF
2 kids I played sport with at a very diverse club, went to a Jewish school and, after A levels, they left to do national service in the IDF. I still find it quite distressing that these people I'd known since early teenage, who were well-liked members of a group with family roots from the UK, Asia, Turkey etc, had almost certainly been complicit in human rights abuses. (or at least not spoken out).
Maybe we should consider ending dual citizenship.
Human rights law is pretty strong on that.
IIRC Germany got told to end its ban on dual nationality, because some countries do not recognise renunciation. So there were people (I think Turkish) who could never get German citizenship.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Sadly this puerile attitude is all too common by people who act as if "peace" is an alternative without first winning the war.
We had to defeat the Germans. Israel has to defeat Hamas.
That requires war, and people die in wars.
There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemy and in an existential fight, you need to fight to win.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
What would be the difference between a Reform majority and a RefCon coalition with Jenrick as Deputy Prime Minister?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, which wasn't really my point, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve all individuals, or individual instances.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
I thought it was the Palestinians who were getting a wee touch of the genocides rather than Hamas?
Hamas is the government of Palestine. Hamas is the one hiding amongst Palestinians. Hamas starting this war by targeting women and children - a war crime. Hamas are to blame for everything that is happening in Gaza.
'They made me do this bad thing.'
This is the future, if not already the present.
Yeah, shit happens in war, which is why it should always be the last resort.
We're already at that last resort in the Middle East. After the unconditional surrender of Hamas, hopefully whatever is left can be rebuilt, but the war has to be won first.
If ever I had cause to doubt that war is hell, the steely-jawed, soft-bottomed warriors of PB will bring me back to reality.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, which wasn't really my point, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
It does if the instances were just.
Casualties happen in wars, that's why they should be the last resort, but if the last resort is reached then you need to fight and you need to win.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
PR, like STV, reduces the extent to which the voting system distorts the relationship between votes and representation in Parliament.
I don't think it's a good thing that we have a government with a landslide majority that received barely one-third of the vote. One-third of the vote is not a big tent.
Reform might well win a majority on just under 30% of the vote, given the current fragmented nature of British politics. How is less than three-tenths a big tent?
A new party surging in the polls. An unpopular PM lost, looking rudderless. Labour and Tories slumping in the polls and no idea what to do. The left fracturing (again).
No I'm not talking 2025, this is 1981. The Alliance were set to sweep to victory in 1983/84, according to all the polls. There were as high as 50%. And yet in the end it fell away, and the incumbent party won second term.
Maybe it’s hopism on my part, but I think Reform will not be able to sustain their basket of deplorables intact. The contradictions will be too much in the long term.
I certainly find it very hard to believe that the Conservatives will spend three and a half more years with a duff leader who can’t recapture any past mojo, and that Labour will get no swing back at all.
I would have thought that if you’re Reform, your actual target is a Hung Parliament where you can give your blessing to PR. Except that Farage is an old man in a hurry.
I suppose the issue with my first contention is that I can see where Labour gets swing back from (if it is seen to have been generally competent and folk feel better off) but not how the Tories differentiate themselves from Reform with something compelling and popular.
You can get married where you like (sort of) although this seems to be a pre-emptive announcement of changes that will be made at some point in the future when the government gets around to it. And one can't help suspecting that £535 million belongs on the side of a bus.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
The particular shape of Harris's tactics were controversial even among several of his Air Force and government contemporaries of the time. An overall moral victory will never whitewash every individual case in a war.
A new party surging in the polls. An unpopular PM lost, looking rudderless. Labour and Tories slumping in the polls and no idea what to do. The left fracturing (again).
No I'm not talking 2025, this is 1981. The Alliance were set to sweep to victory in 1983/84, according to all the polls. There were as high as 50%. And yet in the end it fell away, and the incumbent party won second term.
Maybe it’s hopism on my part, but I think Reform will not be able to sustain their basket of deplorables intact. The contradictions will be too much in the long term.
I certainly find it very hard to believe that the Conservatives will spend three and a half more years with a duff leader who can’t recapture any past mojo, and that Labour will get no swing back at all.
I would have thought that if you’re Reform, your actual target is a Hung Parliament where you can give your blessing to PR. Except that Farage is an old man in a hurry.
I suppose the issue with my first contention is that I can see where Labour gets swing back from (if it is seen to have been generally competent and folk feel better off) but not how the Tories differentiate themselves from Reform with something compelling and popular.
They (Tories) Need a Thatcherite big idea. Aspiration vote.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
I do agree with you, but by the end of the war it is also true that most people in the know (including Churchill) had concluded that Mallory’s strategy had gone on far too long past the advent of improved precision bombing technology. They concluded this by contrasting us with the yanks.
However thats not to say we committed war crimes. It’s just another example of the nature of war changing around people between 39 and 45.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
If Kemi is replaced next year it will be Cleverly who replaces her by coronation as Tory MPs elected Howard by coronation to succeed IDS in 2003 and Sunak by coronation to replace Truss in 2022.
Tory voters who stayed loyal in 2024 and all voters prefer Cleverly too polls show, only Reform voters prefer Jenrick. Even Tory members rejected Jenrick last year
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
PR, like STV, reduces the extent to which the voting system distorts the relationship between votes and representation in Parliament.
I don't think it's a good thing that we have a government with a landslide majority that received barely one-third of the vote. One-third of the vote is not a big tent.
Reform might well win a majority on just under 30% of the vote, given the current fragmented nature of British politics. How is less than three-tenths a big tent?
They will only get that if its a bigger tent than anyone else was able to make, in a majority of seats.
If the other parties can't set their differences aside enough to make a bigger tent then three tenths, then like it or not three-tenths is the biggest tent.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
War crimes as a concept is a product of the post WW2 world, so applying the term before then is contentious at least.
Deliberate mass bombing of cities is now pretty much universally acknowledged as a war crime now, so even the IDF and Russia try to pretend they are doing surgical strikes on enemy positions rather than deliberate mass slaughter of civilians.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
War crimes as a concept is a product of the post WW2 world, so applying the term before then is contentious at least.
Deliberate mass bombing of cities is now pretty much universally acknowledged as a war crime now, so even the IDF and Russia try to pretend they are doing surgical strikes on enemy positions rather than deliberate mass slaughter of civilians.
Israel is doing surgical strikes, which is why there are so few casualties.
If they were doing mass slaughter as so many here falsely accuse them of, the casualties would be well over a million by now.
It also leaves her a hostage to fortune if it turns out he had external orders.
THREE people have been arrested on suspicion of commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism.
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
What the hell is wrong with her?
Your'e taking that a bit out of context.
This is the fuller quote: The only person responsible for this devastating attack on our Jewish community is the attacker himself. The police have made three additional arrests, and it’s important that they are allowed to continue with their investigations and our process of justice is allowed to take its course. That is separate to what is happening in the Middle East..
You can make the case that she expressed herself clumsily, but the distinction she was trying to draw is pretty clear.
It also leaves her a hostage to fortune if it turns out he had external orders.
THREE people have been arrested on suspicion of commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism.
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
What the hell is wrong with her?
Lawyerly accurate in our system of justice. Innocent until proven otherwise. Have you an alternative system in mind?
In reading some of these quite heated exchanges about the rights and wrongs of the Middle East and the relative religions, I have a mental picture in my head along the lines of - What would a Salem Facebook page be like when discussing witchcraft?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
The particular shape of Harris's tactics were controversial even among several of his Air Force and government contemporaries of the time. An overall moral victory will never whitewash every individual case in a war.
Oh so it Harris's tactics you don't like. Prefer the 8th Airforce style? Who ended up copying Harris because they realised he was right. The Americans had prepared for high level, accurate bombing raids in the clear blue skies of home. When they met the reality of continental Europe, often in autumn and winter with 10/10 cloud, they realised that precision bombing was really, really hard. Skills and equipment got better - pathfinders came in and the Dambusters showed what could be done, but there wasn't some better way for most of the war.
You can get married where you like (sort of) although this seems to be a pre-emptive announcement of changes that will be made at some point in the future when the government gets around to it. And one can't help suspecting that £535 million belongs on the side of a bus.
Excellent news if true. I have said for the years that the single best reform any Government could make to marriage is to allow you to marry in any location, but give the Registrar the power to refuse if you took the piss with something that disrespected the occasion.
The wedding tax whereby the same venue costs more for a wedding than a birthday party (where the market is wider) has always been unjust.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Sadly this puerile attitude is all too common by people who act as if "peace" is an alternative without first winning the war.
We had to defeat the Germans. Israel has to defeat Hamas.
That requires war, and people die in wars.
There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemy and in an existential fight, you need to fight to win.
Or you can sideline the extremists and make peace, as in Northern Ireland; or seek an armistice as in the First World War. Your absolutism is simply wrong (just as well for Ukraine if you think they need to storm Moscow).
I am not convinced by Hindu voters being Conservative though. I think that was largely a Sunak effect which is now extinct. Leicester East as a safe Tory seat stretches the concept. I dont know who will win there but an independent would be most likely, particularly as the Tories align ever more closely to Reform, and go down a similar rabbit hole of mass deportations of legal immigrants.
It goes back further I think - perhaps in a partial mirror of Indian politics, or a reaction to how muslims vote, or because the Hindu community is significantly a small business community (a legacy of expulsions from Uganda in the early 1970s?).
There was a trend for Hindus from Lab to Con from 2010 to 2015, and the reverse for Muslims. There could have been a trend he other way since, and as younger Hindus have moved into professions, tech etc.
Sourced commentary from "Hundi Matters":
A post-election survey conducted by Survation for the integration and migration think tank ‘British Future’ found that up to a million ethnic minority votes helped put David Cameron into Downing Street. Over 2,000 people of ethnic minority origin were interviewed across Britain between 8 and 14 May 2015. The Labour Party continues to be the preference for ethnic minorities gaining 52% of the ethnic vote. The Conservatives gained 33% of the ethnic vote which a marked increase from previous general elections. In 2010, the Labour Party had 68% of the ethnic vote and Conservatives 16% according to EMBES 2010 research data. So there is a major shift of balance between the big two parties.
According to the data, more Hindus and Sikhs voted for the Conservatives (49%) compared to Labour (41%). Muslims voted 25% Conservative and 64% Labour. And Christians followed a similar trend with Labour vote of 56% and 31% Conservatives.
Christians 56% Labour, 31% Conservative (28% & 24% in 2010) Muslim 64% Labour, 25% Conservative (41% & 12% in 2010) Hindu 41% Labour, 49% Conservative (35% & 18% in 2010) Sikh 41% Labour, 49% Conservative (37% & 15% in 2010)
In the previous election in 2010, according the BRIN at the University of Manchester, Conservatives only received 18% of the vote from Hindus and that has now nearly doubled. The Labour vote in 2010 was highest among Muslims (41%) and lowest for Christians (28%), with Hindus (35%) and Sikhs (37%). https://www.hindumattersinbritain.co.uk/Page/are-hindus-natural-conservatives
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Read the article you just posted:
"Antifa is not a unified organization but rather a movement without a hierarchical leadership structure, comprising multiple autonomous groups and individuals. The movement is loosely affiliated, and has no chain of command, with antifa groups instead sharing "resources and information about far-right activity across regional and national borders through loosely knit networks and informal relationships of trust and solidarity." "
ANTIFA is a fairy story. Antifa is an ideal - to be anti-fascist. I am antifa. This "ANTIFA" terrorist organisation is who? Where? What? "Autonomous Groups and Individuals" - not connected to each other other than through an ideal and "solidarity"
It's the bogeyman.
Yes, and you are aligning yourself with those groups.
And again, you can be an anti-fascist and not agree with those groups. In fact, you can be an anti-fascist and be on the right.
So essentially you are saying that anyone who does not agree with that 'movement' is not anti-fascist. Which is quite a dangerous road to go down.
There are no groups to be aligned with. Again, show me who antifa are - their members, their leadership, their structure.
Labelling people as antifa is not the same there being a terrorist network called antifa.
I want to reclaim the term from the people who are doing the labelling - the actual fascists.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
Not necessarily the bombing campaign as a whole, but very likely certain instances of it.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve individuals, or individual instances.
Come on then - name them and convince me that they were war crimes. Go on. I'm waiting. And if you start with Dresden, you've lost.
War crimes as a concept is a product of the post WW2 world, so applying the term before then is contentious at least.
Deliberate mass bombing of cities is now pretty much universally acknowledged as a war crime now, so even the IDF and Russia try to pretend they are doing surgical strikes on enemy positions rather than deliberate mass slaughter of civilians.
Israel is doing surgical strikes, which is why there are so few casualties.
If they were doing mass slaughter as so many here falsely accuse them of, the casualties would be well over a million by now.
“Surgical strikes”? Not even the Israelis claim that. They claim they are warning civilians and moving them away, but they accept that they are destroying vast amounts of Gaza. That’s the whole point. I mean, look at the pictures.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
Or Ireland. Which has elected centre right governments for the existence of the state. Which I would have thought you’d like?
I like democracy more than I like to win, and I stand by the system whether we win or lose.
Those who only go with the system they think will see them win are not true democrats.
In 1983 the longest-suicide note in history received the support of 27.6% of the vote.
In 2029, 27.6% of the vote could be enough to return a majority government. Would you really be happy for a government to implement a manifesto that received such a low minority share of the vote?
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
I do agree with you, but by the end of the war it is also true that most people in the know (including Churchill) had concluded that Mallory’s strategy had gone on far too long past the advent of improved precision bombing technology. They concluded this by contrasting us with the yanks.
However thats not to say we committed war crimes. It’s just another example of the nature of war changing around people between 39 and 45.
Edit - Harris not Mallory. It’s early.
Actually, by the end of the war, Bomber Command Main Force and the Americans were achieving about the same level of accuracy - a sort of giant shotgun blast a mile or so across that could be aimed to hit a district of a city.
Lots of bombing on H2S and H2X by both.
A small group within Bomber Command - mainly Mosquitos - could achieve near modern accuracy through use of Oboe. A large force of four engined bombers could use GEE-H, which was less accurate.
Oboe could only be used by one aircraft per base station(s) system, at a time. Hence "playing card" attacks - Mosquitos flying in close formation in the pattern of the markings on a playing card. They would drop on signal from the Oboe equipped aircraft. These attacks created a mini-shotgun effect that made Oboe raids very reliable - but were greatly disliked by the pilots who had to try and formate at night.
As an aside, current polls would suggest that STV would return a Reform-Tory coalition. As a leftie I'm not supporting it because I think it will deliver a left-wing win.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
I do agree with you, but by the end of the war it is also true that most people in the know (including Churchill) had concluded that Mallory’s strategy had gone on far too long past the advent of improved precision bombing technology. They concluded this by contrasting us with the yanks.
However thats not to say we committed war crimes. It’s just another example of the nature of war changing around people between 39 and 45.
Edit - Harris not Mallory. It’s early.
Trouble is the air campaigns learned from each other. The yanks realised that European weather meant their idea of high level precision bombing with the Nordern bomb site would only work on rare occasions, while Bomber Command spent years getting better and better at aiming points. The two campaigns became closely similar by the end. If you think that the 8th Airforce didn't do area bombing you would be very wrong indeed.
Dresden gets the headlines because it 'worked' so well. By 1945 the allies were unchallenged (pretty much) in the skies, although the Me262 was coming in. And aiming was very good too. And Dresden was dry, it was warm weather and so a firestorm developed, as had happened at Hamburg. But in truth Harris was trying to firestorm every German city. He wanted the German leaders to stop the war without a single allied soldier landing on the continent (well thats inaccurate really as they were in Italy in 1943).
A little bit like Hamas, Dresden wouldn't have happened if Germany had surrendered in 1944 when all hope was lost. But a bit like Hamas there is nothing for the Nazis to surrender for - Hitler wasn't going to get to retire off to the Obersalzburg and paint.
A new party surging in the polls. An unpopular PM lost, looking rudderless. Labour and Tories slumping in the polls and no idea what to do. The left fracturing (again).
No I'm not talking 2025, this is 1981. The Alliance were set to sweep to victory in 1983/84, according to all the polls. There were as high as 50%. And yet in the end it fell away, and the incumbent party won second term.
Maybe it’s hopism on my part, but I think Reform will not be able to sustain their basket of deplorables intact. The contradictions will be too much in the long term.
I certainly find it very hard to believe that the Conservatives will spend three and a half more years with a duff leader who can’t recapture any past mojo, and that Labour will get no swing back at all.
I would have thought that if you’re Reform, your actual target is a Hung Parliament where you can give your blessing to PR. Except that Farage is an old man in a hurry.
I suppose the issue with my first contention is that I can see where Labour gets swing back from (if it is seen to have been generally competent and folk feel better off) but not how the Tories differentiate themselves from Reform with something compelling and popular.
PR would now be a nightmare for Reform, giving them just 200 MPs rather than the over 300 MPs FPTP forecasts for them.
Ironically PR could save the Tories on current polls giving them over 100 MPs rather than their forecast 45 with FPTP
You can get married where you like (sort of) although this seems to be a pre-emptive announcement of changes that will be made at some point in the future when the government gets around to it. And one can't help suspecting that £535 million belongs on the side of a bus.
Excellent news if true. I have said for the years that the single best reform any Government could make to marriage is to allow you to marry in any location, but give the Registrar the power to refuse if you took the piss with something that disrespected the occasion.
The wedding tax whereby the same venue costs more for a wedding than a birthday party (where the market is wider) has always been unjust.
I fear this will increase the wedding tax but lead to emptier churches and registry offices.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
With all due respect that’s an exactly why you should vote for him.
If you don’t have sane voices (even if backbenchers) among Tory MPs then no hope of reversing the shift in the direction of Reform.
NEW: Home secretary Shabana Mahmood urges pro-Palestine protesters to consider not taking part in marches this weekend.
"Imagine if you lost a loved one to a terror attack in this country ... sometimes a little unity, a little solidarity, some love to other people is required"
As someone was nailed to a tree for saying, the only way things like this stop escalating is someone stepping back from the anger one feels entitled to.
I don't think that's smart actually. She's by implication equating protesting Gaza with intimidating the Jewish community. That might be what it feels like for British Jews but it certainly isn't what (most) protestors consider themselves to be doing.
This is the same Labour government locking people up for wearing t-shirts, and continues to support Netanyahu's government with arms sales. They have no credibility whatsoever in that part of our society and I suspect the protests will continue over the weekend - perhaps with more vigour.
I think it pretty dumb of her. Protesting the genocide and starvation in Gaza has nothing to do with events in Manchester.
Not that I will be protesting this weekend for anyone.
I see that Hamas are the only “genocide” victims in history who have decided to keep the “genocide” ongoing.
Conflating Hamas and all Gazans is no different to conflating the IDF with all Jews.
Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. What the IDF is doing is no different to the British Army invading Germany to end WW2. This whole genocide narrative is a total nonsense. Hamas started this war and somehow they are now the victims. The IDF isn’t perfect but they give civilians and other non combatants much more quarter than Hamas or even Russia does but I don’t see Greta trying to break the blockade of Crimea.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Britain committed plenty of war crimes outside of Europe, and even during its bombing campaign of Germany, but there's not much resemblance between the British Army invading Germany and the IDF in Gaza.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
Feck off. This is utter revisionist bollocks. Be glad you never needed to fight fascism and Nazi Germany. The RAF and bomber command were trying to end a war with as few casualties on the allied side as possible. What was your alternative? And please don't come back and say "but Dresden". Dresden was a target just as much as any German city. Every anti-aircraft gun defending the Reich was one less that was taking out Sherman's in North West Europe.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
I wouldn't rely too much on the Sherman tank arguments if I were you. It was the 7,5cm guns which did most of the execution (and were inevitably often misidentified as '88s'). The 8,8cm guns were arguably unnecessarily heavy and too valuable as anti-aircraft guns to be used as field anti-tank weapons [edit] where they were commonly overrun in a defensive war, except in crisis, and that faded somewhat once there was a decent supply of 7,5cm PaK 40 and its variants. And the home defence AA was in considerable part staffed by people who were not fit for the front lines, in reality or in the perception of the time - for instance, women (Flakhilferinnen = "Air Defence Artillery helperesses").
Some bonkers comments on here last night, of which @Big_G_NorthWales was not one of them.
"Antifa" is bonkers. Its an idea, not a terrorist organisation. I am antifa. But Big G is quoting someone important mentioning it - which makes it relevant to post on here.
What else did we have. "every sane Patriotic Brit" have to vote for Farage - Mr Russia who went to American demanding economic sanctions on us.
A "civil war" if Reform win the election or "eventual islamic takeover" if they don't. Riiiiiiiiight.
This forum is a microcosm of the real world. We have representatives from most elements of real world politics. And we need to try switching off and back on again as everyone has lost it.
Good morning and thank you
It was one of several comments made by an important public figure in the fight against anti semiitism live in Sky
And that's why its right to post it here. Its part of the discussion even if what they said is rampant bullshit. Sadly we will hear a lot about "antifa" as we continue down the Farage Trump Putin political axis. When they look for antifa, send them in my direction. I am antifa.
Are you? How do you define Antifa, and how are *you* Antifa?
(Personally, I think defining yourself by that Americanism is deeply unhelpful...)
There's a long British tradition of Antifa, from Cable St on to the "Rock against Racism" and "Anti-Nazi League" of my youth.
Not to mention the boatloads of armed and dangerous Antifa who crossed the channel without passports in June 1944, albeit leaving rather than entering Britain.
That's anti-fascism. It's not necessarily synonymous with the US groups' aims.
You can have anti-fascists on the centre-right as well, and I fear the hard-left Communists are no better than fascists.
Antifa is simply an abbreviation of anti-facist.
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
Read the article you just posted:
"Antifa is not a unified organization but rather a movement without a hierarchical leadership structure, comprising multiple autonomous groups and individuals. The movement is loosely affiliated, and has no chain of command, with antifa groups instead sharing "resources and information about far-right activity across regional and national borders through loosely knit networks and informal relationships of trust and solidarity." "
ANTIFA is a fairy story. Antifa is an ideal - to be anti-fascist. I am antifa. This "ANTIFA" terrorist organisation is who? Where? What? "Autonomous Groups and Individuals" - not connected to each other other than through an ideal and "solidarity"
It's the bogeyman.
Yes, and you are aligning yourself with those groups.
And again, you can be an anti-fascist and not agree with those groups. In fact, you can be an anti-fascist and be on the right.
So essentially you are saying that anyone who does not agree with that 'movement' is not anti-fascist. Which is quite a dangerous road to go down.
There are no groups to be aligned with. Again, show me who antifa are - their members, their leadership, their structure.
Labelling people as antifa is not the same there being a terrorist network called antifa.
I want to reclaim the term from the people who are doing the labelling - the actual fascists.
But I am also anti-fascist, and by allying yourself to the American term, you will exclude anti-fascists such as myself who want nothing to do with antifa.
Good morning. The ghouls were out last night and it's not even Halloween. Wonder when we are going to read about someone being radicalised by PB?
Back on subject and looking at the forecast for my own 'safe' Tory seat which is supposed to go Reform. Knowing the local Reform people (ex-UKIP) they just don't have the skills to run a council given the level of issues to be dealt with locally. Scale that up to Westminster and if Reform do get in, then unless there is something like the Heritage Foundation or some well-financed Think Tank, then it will be more of a disaster than the previous 3 governments.
One can only hope there will be more defections of skilled and capable politicians to Reform before 2029 cos a Reform government won't be pretty.
I am in one of the seats showing conservative on this MRP, with Reform a close second. My Tory MP is one of the relatively sane ones, but there is no way that I would tactically vote for them when Jenrick will be running on the same platform as Reform.
You should vote for the Conservatives in this scenario. Jenrick is clearly driven by cold political ambition rather than some MAGA ideology; the man was a Cameroon once, voted Remain.
That kind of tactical voting might prevent a Reform majority, and mitigate some of the more extreme excesses.
We need a PR coupon election. I am sick of FPTP - it doesn’t work with this many parties on reasonable vote shares.
Yes it does, because it means that any party that can reach across and offer a big tent to encourage the most votes wins, which is a good thing.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
Or Ireland. Which has elected centre right governments for the existence of the state. Which I would have thought you’d like?
I like democracy more than I like to win, and I stand by the system whether we win or lose.
Those who only go with the system they think will see them win are not true democrats.
In 1983 the longest-suicide note in history received the support of 27.6% of the vote.
In 2029, 27.6% of the vote could be enough to return a majority government. Would you really be happy for a government to implement a manifesto that received such a low minority share of the vote?
We’ve got one doing it on 33% yet many people are happy with that.
Comments
Sure Trump and his goons misuse the word, just as they do with "Woke", but we shouldn't normalise that misuse.
Which is why there are significant numbers of Jews protesting the Gaza Genocide, both in Britain and in Israel.
Zack Polanski being an obvious example for instance.
Hamas are the government of Gaza, in control of Gaza. To be at war with Hamas is to be at war with Gaza.
Hamas is to Gaza what Putin and his regime is to Russia.
The IDF has nothing to do with Jews as a whole.
Israel are the nice safe baddies. It’s okay to hate them and to prod them because ultimately you will be treated well, given a sandwich, and flown back to Europe.
Hamas is the government of Gaza.
The IDF has bugger all to do with Jews.
If you can't see the difference, you're blind.
My own view is Netanyahu is not representative of British Jewry, and British Jews and British Muslims should be allowed to go about their lawful business unhindered. Starmer and Mahmood can do something about that, and quickly.
The targetted and specific war crimes, on the ground and from the air, are in the thousands and well-documented. The British Army on the ground in Europe in1945 was not depending for support on a government with a primary constituency of religious fascists, which is the main reason for the difference.
It is Hamas that is committing war crimes, not all Palestinians.
Which is why many Palestinians oppose Hamas (such as the Government of the West Bank) and many Israelis oppose the war on Gaza.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)
If you're an anti-fascist, say you're an anti-fascist. Don't align yourself with the US - but if you do, don't complain about the UK hard right aligning with MAGA.
This is the future, if not already the present.
There are endless clips of Netanyahu's government advocating for exactly that and so it serves as confirmation that the government is simply doing his bidding.
Or we could just cancel future elections until it is all sorted out ;-)
Is it time to dip out before our primary poster returns with his big boots on?
https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/1973993217986077033
It made me curious enough to look up the safest seats in the country. Which is the Lib Dem stronghold of Twickenham - Cable's old stomping ground. In fact, there are 3 South West London Lib Dem seats in the top 8 safest seats, including where I live.
If you want to abandon that principle - fine. But be up front about it.
Most of the Asahi Group's factories in Japan have been at a standstill since Monday, after the attack hit its ordering and delivering systems, the firm has said.
Personally, I think Hamas must have a fairly decent amount of support in Gaza otherwise they'd have been overthrown sometime ago. And, yes, the Israelis keep electing Netanyahu. Israel is my go to example for why PR is bad.
Point is, someone can make the case that the distinction between Hamas and Gazans is quite blurred. You might disagree with that, but you don't get to bring Jews into the equation.
John Rentoul
@JohnRentoul
·
36m
Good analysis of
@YouGov
MRP poll by Gareth of the Vale: 200 of 631 GB seats are “toss-ups” (parties within 5 points of each other)
https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/10/03/analysing-the-september-2025-yougov-mrp/
https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1974014753757381054
Why did you conflate the IDF with Jews rather than Israel, and Hamas with Gazans rather than Islam, before?
Plain old racism.
"Antifa is not a unified organization but rather a movement without a hierarchical leadership structure, comprising multiple autonomous groups and individuals. The movement is loosely affiliated, and has no chain of command, with antifa groups instead sharing "resources and information about far-right activity across regional and national borders through loosely knit networks and informal relationships of trust and solidarity." "
ANTIFA is a fairy story. Antifa is an ideal - to be anti-fascist. I am antifa. This "ANTIFA" terrorist organisation is who? Where? What? "Autonomous Groups and Individuals" - not connected to each other other than through an ideal and "solidarity"
It's the bogeyman.
They are not especially numerous, and not the biggest part of the Anti-MAGA groups.
Their thing is direct action - generally of low level stuff like telling employers about far-right types criminal convictions and associations. Occasionally, they seem to go as far as damaging property and equipment owned by ICE.
Think the Black Blok types who hang around demonstrations in the UK - they aren't liberal democrats, but definitely aren't anyones definition of a terrorist, either.
We're already at that last resort in the Middle East. After the unconditional surrender of Hamas, hopefully whatever is left can be rebuilt, but the war has to be won first.
The MRPs, whilst we are a long way out from an election (probably!) I think are giving a pretty good flavour of where we are on current polling. On the local by elections each week i am keeping an eye on how the results stack up against the ward by ward analysis of 2024 and the current projected ward results from Nowcast (modelled on polling averages). Last nights results were remarkably consistent with current projections - the Narrow hold in Ellesmere Port, the Reform gains in Faversham/Maidstone, Wigan and Brentwood all modelled pretty well.
Based on it, im starting to reconsider my thought that the LDs will fall back maybe, their hold on what they took does seem more solid perhaps, although MRPs dont model tactical unwind so im not reversing my thoughts entirely, but i think their seat floor on a 12,2% repeat is higher than i previously considered. We will see.
Anyway, back to the projections. To use Hutton South in Brentwood as an example, in 2024 it voted Con 42 Ref 24. Curremtly projected Ref 46 Con 29. Voted last night Ref 45 Con 31.
Consistent with Ref high 20s to 30, Con high teens nationally
Ben Walker of New Statesman campaigned in Ellesmere Port for last nights vote and made an interesting observation on the fat 41% turnout - many normal non voters are now voters for Reform
We know who UAF are. It has a secretariat, membership, officers, a structure.
Show me the same for ANTIFA.
PR just results in politics like in Israel or Italy, not any better.
See the way they took over in the first place. It wasn't an election.
Worth a read - https://www.arabnews.com/node/2617483/middle-east
A fascinating little vid 9 minute vid about Ladybower Reservoir filling up again, by a Youtuber who investigates rural landscapes and industrial structures/remains.
The @TSE hosepipe is safe !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvfFWYpAVpY
She just told the media that the "only person responsible was the attacker himself"
This is a live police investigation. Nobody should be making statements on it, especially not the Home Secretary when the police have people in custody.
What the hell is wrong with her?
No I'm not talking 2025, this is 1981. The Alliance were set to sweep to victory in 1983/84, according to all the polls. There were as high as 50%. And yet in the end it fell away, and the incumbent party won second term.
Maybe its hopism on my part, but I think Reform will not be able to sustain their basket of deplorables intact. The contradictions will be too much in the long term.
Those who only go with the system they think will see them win are not true democrats.
Not all Jews support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, not all Israelis support the actions of the Israeli govt and IDF, but some British Jews serve in the IDF
2 kids I played sport with at a very diverse club, went to a Jewish school and, after A levels, they left to do national service in the IDF.
I still find it quite distressing that these people I'd known since early teenage, who were well-liked members of a group with family roots from the UK, Asia, Turkey etc, had almost certainly been complicit in human rights abuses. (or at least not spoken out).
As Gareth notes, forget pensioners who are now increasingly going Reform. The Tory core vote under Kemi is now Jews, high earning Hindus and some middle class Leavers concentrated around some wealthy bits of London and a few wealthy rural areas
And again, you can be an anti-fascist and not agree with those groups. In fact, you can be an anti-fascist and be on the right.
So essentially you are saying that anyone who does not agree with that 'movement' is not anti-fascist. Which is quite a dangerous road to go down.
My wife finds him very objectionable, needless to say.
Allied troops certainly did commit war crimes - surrendered troops executed, rapes, whatever. But to try to suggest that the bombing campaign was a war crime is infantile.
We keep our law enforcement and judicial process out of the hands of direct enforcement by politicians, I think. And the trend has been away from political policing for half a century, fore example as we see in the Home Secretary losing their involvement in setting lifetime tariffs.
There are certain roles left for the Attorney General (who acts in a quasi-judicial capacity?), and the Home Secretary (around extradition, and "persona non-grata".
Imo political separation from policing is one of the things Farage, Jenrick & Co are practically trying to undermine by their various claims and demands, by linking the PM to legal action against their friends and fellow travellers.
There may be other roles for the Home Secretary that I have not mentioned - do they have a role in identifying where riot charges should be used eg in the case of street demonstrations turning into criminality and serious potential violence?
This is the fuller quote:
The only person responsible for this devastating attack on our Jewish community is the attacker himself.
The police have made three additional arrests, and it’s important that they are allowed to continue with their investigations and our process of justice is allowed to take its course. That is separate to what is happening in the Middle East..
You can make the case that she expressed herself clumsily, but the distinction she was trying to draw is pretty clear.
IIRC Germany got told to end its ban on dual nationality, because some countries do not recognise renunciation. So there were people (I think Turkish) who could never get German citizenship.
Worst result ever for Labour in GE 2029
Nobody on the centre left of the party should touch a leadership challenge with a barge pole.
Let Fire Starter and Austerity Reeves fight out their 3 years in charge of the sinking ship
We had to defeat the Germans.
Israel has to defeat Hamas.
That requires war, and people die in wars.
There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemy and in an existential fight, you need to fight to win.
An overall historical vindication doesn't necessarily absolve all individuals, or individual instances.
Casualties happen in wars, that's why they should be the last resort, but if the last resort is reached then you need to fight and you need to win.
I don't think it's a good thing that we have a government with a landslide majority that received barely one-third of the vote. One-third of the vote is not a big tent.
Reform might well win a majority on just under 30% of the vote, given the current fragmented nature of British politics. How is less than three-tenths a big tent?
I would have thought that if you’re Reform, your actual target is a Hung Parliament where you can give your blessing to PR. Except that Farage is an old man in a hurry.
I suppose the issue with my first contention is that I can see where Labour gets swing back from (if it is seen to have been generally competent and folk feel better off) but not how the Tories differentiate themselves from Reform with something compelling and popular.
In the biggest overhaul to marriage law since the 19th century, reforms are set to give marrying couples greater freedom and boost the economy by £535 million.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-boost-to-economy-through-wedding-law-reform
You can get married where you like (sort of) although this seems to be a pre-emptive announcement of changes that will be made at some point in the future when the government gets around to it. And one can't help suspecting that £535 million belongs on the side of a bus.
However thats not to say we committed war crimes. It’s just another example of the nature of war changing around people between 39 and 45.
Edit - Harris not Mallory. It’s early.
Tory voters who stayed loyal in 2024 and all voters prefer Cleverly too polls show, only Reform voters prefer Jenrick. Even Tory members rejected Jenrick last year
If the other parties can't set their differences aside enough to make a bigger tent then three tenths, then like it or not three-tenths is the biggest tent.
Deliberate mass bombing of cities is now pretty much universally acknowledged as a war crime now, so even the IDF and Russia try to pretend they are doing surgical strikes on enemy positions rather than deliberate mass slaughter of civilians.
If they were doing mass slaughter as so many here falsely accuse them of, the casualties would be well over a million by now.
In reading some of these quite heated exchanges about the rights and wrongs of the Middle East and the relative religions, I have a mental picture in my head along the lines of - What would a Salem Facebook page be like when discussing witchcraft?
The wedding tax whereby the same venue costs more for a wedding than a birthday party (where the market is wider) has always been unjust.
There was a trend for Hindus from Lab to Con from 2010 to 2015, and the reverse for Muslims. There could have been a trend he other way since, and as younger Hindus have moved into professions, tech etc.
Sourced commentary from "Hundi Matters":
A post-election survey conducted by Survation for the integration and migration think tank ‘British Future’ found that up to a million ethnic minority votes helped put David Cameron into Downing Street. Over 2,000 people of ethnic minority origin were interviewed across Britain between 8 and 14 May 2015. The Labour Party continues to be the preference for ethnic minorities gaining 52% of the ethnic vote. The Conservatives gained 33% of the ethnic vote which a marked increase from previous general elections. In 2010, the Labour Party had 68% of the ethnic vote and Conservatives 16% according to EMBES 2010 research data. So there is a major shift of balance between the big two parties.
According to the data, more Hindus and Sikhs voted for the Conservatives (49%) compared to Labour (41%). Muslims voted 25% Conservative and 64% Labour. And Christians followed a similar trend with Labour vote of 56% and 31% Conservatives.
Christians 56% Labour, 31% Conservative (28% & 24% in 2010)
Muslim 64% Labour, 25% Conservative (41% & 12% in 2010)
Hindu 41% Labour, 49% Conservative (35% & 18% in 2010)
Sikh 41% Labour, 49% Conservative (37% & 15% in 2010)
In the previous election in 2010, according the BRIN at the University of Manchester, Conservatives only received 18% of the vote from Hindus and that has now nearly doubled. The Labour vote in 2010 was highest among Muslims (41%) and lowest for Christians (28%), with Hindus (35%) and Sikhs (37%).
https://www.hindumattersinbritain.co.uk/Page/are-hindus-natural-conservatives
(BRIN = "British Religion in Numbers")
Labelling people as antifa is not the same there being a terrorist network called antifa.
I want to reclaim the term from the people who are doing the labelling - the actual fascists.
In 2029, 27.6% of the vote could be enough to return a majority government. Would you really be happy for a government to implement a manifesto that received such a low minority share of the vote?
Lots of bombing on H2S and H2X by both.
A small group within Bomber Command - mainly Mosquitos - could achieve near modern accuracy through use of Oboe. A large force of four engined bombers could use GEE-H, which was less accurate.
Oboe could only be used by one aircraft per base station(s) system, at a time. Hence "playing card" attacks - Mosquitos flying in close formation in the pattern of the markings on a playing card. They would drop on signal from the Oboe equipped aircraft. These attacks created a mini-shotgun effect that made Oboe raids very reliable - but were greatly disliked by the pilots who had to try and formate at night.
Dresden gets the headlines because it 'worked' so well. By 1945 the allies were unchallenged (pretty much) in the skies, although the Me262 was coming in. And aiming was very good too. And Dresden was dry, it was warm weather and so a firestorm developed, as had happened at Hamburg. But in truth Harris was trying to firestorm every German city. He wanted the German leaders to stop the war without a single allied soldier landing on the continent (well thats inaccurate really as they were in Italy in 1943).
A little bit like Hamas, Dresden wouldn't have happened if Germany had surrendered in 1944 when all hope was lost. But a bit like Hamas there is nothing for the Nazis to surrender for - Hitler wasn't going to get to retire off to the Obersalzburg and paint.
Ironically PR could save the Tories on current polls giving them over 100 MPs rather than their forecast 45 with FPTP
If you don’t have sane voices (even if backbenchers) among Tory MPs then no hope of reversing the shift in the direction of Reform.
I'm sure you can see the problem.