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  • eekeek Posts: 30,814
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    Is the 'Palestine' we'll be recognising (if we do) a tangible geographical identity or more of a conceptual aspiration with borders to be defined?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548

    rcs1000 said:

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
    Local election results don't, so far, tend to suggest direct LD to Reform seat changes. In the South and SW council areas up in May, my impression is Reform did well in areas without much LD presence, and LDs well where they won in 2024.

    At the moment, Lib Dem areas seem relatively immune to Farage's charms in that they are already the established "none of the above" choice. If Reform hoovered up the Tories more fully, it could be another story. But, just now, LDs will just be be happy to see a split right wing vote in these places.
    I am not sure which LD seats RCS thinks are vulnerable to Reform, but if there are any, i'd expect the LD incumbent to do extraordinarily well in pulling across votes from Tory and Labour in the seat
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,263
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    One can and should condemn the Israeli government without resorting to such comparisons.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,995
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
  • ScarpiaScarpia Posts: 78

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    A mere 18 months late, but at last something from Starmer.

    The pro- Bibi PB fanbois will have a fit of the vapours!
    But fortuitous timing in that it serves as the first counterattack against the Fruit & Nuts party
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    The "war" didn't start on 7th October. There never was a Peace Treaty that was abrogated.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,742
    Another bit of Starmer genius. Either you agree with the concept of Palestinian recognition or you don’t. What does dates or deadlines have to do with it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,360
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
  • PJHPJH Posts: 884
    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    They are pretty shit at it if so.
  • Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given how broken seat calculators are in uncharted territory and soon to be 5.5 party politics, some proper regional polling would be very useful to identify exactly where the Reform surge is strongest, Labour collapse most precipitous and where the Con vote is holding up better (and if the LDs are retaining their southern vote at 2024 levels)

    The LDs are polling a couple of points higher than at the last General Election. I suspect, therefore, that they will be holding on to their vote in pretty much all their current seats. Nevertheless, they will probably lose a few seats to Reform in the South West, while picking up some in the South East where the fracturing of the right allows them to sneak up the middle (so to speak).

    Were a General Election to be held today, I would expect them to make modest net gains - i.e. 5 to 10 seats - while Reform swept to a majority.
    Local election results don't, so far, tend to suggest direct LD to Reform seat changes. In the South and SW council areas up in May, my impression is Reform did well in areas without much LD presence, and LDs well where they won in 2024.

    At the moment, Lib Dem areas seem relatively immune to Farage's charms in that they are already the established "none of the above" choice. If Reform hoovered up the Tories more fully, it could be another story. But, just now, LDs will just be be happy to see a split right wing vote in these places.
    Devon and Cornwall is probably where Reform can win seats off the Lib Dems. Somerset, and the Cotswolds seems secure for them..
    But the seats LDs won in Devon and Cornwall in 2024 are basically where they did well in those counties in May, whilst Reform did well in other parts of those counties. That's the point.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,873
    Seems like fantasy and ludicrous right now but there are several good reasons why the Tories could jump up to 30%+ and win in 4 years time due to "events".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    So SKS is going to recognise a country governed by an organisation that his own government deems a terrorist organisation.

    What larks.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,381
    edited July 29
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
    But he'll get that after the election anyway if the polls stay consistent.
    It's a massive "if" when we're talking about four years. Why gamble on the "if" to the extent he can do it now?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,374
    edited July 29
    Deleted
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,360
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,008

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    Meanwhile, our message to the terrorists of Hamas is unchanged but unequivocal. They must immediately release all of the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, disarm and accept that they will play no part in the government of Gaza.
    We’ll make an assessment in September on how far the parties have met these steps, but no one should have a veto over our decision. So this is the way forward.
    So if the hostages aren’t released, no recognition of Palestine?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    Delighted to see we are recognising Palestine. Overdue.

    Presumably Starmer was running this by Trump in Scotland and taking his temperature. Will be incredibly impressive if he manages to shift the US position on this, and a vindication of his very Trump friendly approach.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,374
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,043
    India’s Gautam Gambhir clashes with Oval groundsman before fifth Test

    India head coach shouts ‘you can’t tell us what to do’ at Surrey head groundsman Lee Fortis before pair are separated following heated exchange in training session


    The India head coach Gautam Gambhir was involved in a heated altercation with Surrey’s head groundsman during the team’s training session at the Kia Oval on Tuesday morning.

    Gambhir was seen pointing his finger at Lee Fortis and shouting “you can’t tell us what to do”. Fortis responded and eventually the pair were separated by Sitanshu Kotak, India’s batting coach, and other members of support staff.

    The Times understands that the argument arose because India had wheeled their bags over an area of the square that was being prepared for future matches and that the team had encroached out of the area set aside on the outfield for their training session.

    Surrey are hosting 60 days of cricket at the Oval this summer and the groundstaff were trying to protect the square before the fifth Test, which begins on Thursday, and for future fixtures, including five days of Hundred matches, a limited-overs match against South Africa in September and several home Surrey matches.


    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/cricket/article/gautam-gambhir-groundsman-oval-india-test-c2wvbfmtc
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,382
    edited July 29
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    So without absolute assurance that Hamas are out of the picture we let Israel run roughshod over Gaza and oh, we let the Gazans starve? Have I got that right?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    edited July 29
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    A Holocaust comparison is off beam but Israel have done more than simply fight back in response to the Oct 7th attack. They've collectively punished an entire population of 2m people. Responded to an atrocity with an arguably even greater one of their own. It undermines the 'no equivalence between Hamas and the IDS' argument (which is in principle a strong one) when in response to terrorists of the worst sort they behave in similar fashion, ie use violence indiscriminately for political ends with no regard for its innocent victims.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,374
    TOPPING said:

    So SKS is going to recognise a country governed by an organisation that his own government deems a terrorist organisation.

    What larks.

    No. Try to get some basic facts right.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    PJH said:

    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).

    Don't the LDs now have the highest proportion of numerically safe seats?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    edited July 29

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    They are pretty shit at it if so.
    Not so easy when the world is watching, and the PM is solely focused on postponing the day of his reckoning
  • eekeek Posts: 30,814
    edited July 29
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Nope the world’s sympathy is with the people unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

    Problem is Israel has done nothing to help them for years / decades which allows Hamas (quietly supported by / proxy of Iran) to take over the country as no one else was providing the money required
  • TresTres Posts: 2,961
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    Was the establishment of Israel rewarding Likud for the King David Hotel bombings then?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,873
    MaxPB said:

    I'm trying to think of the last time the IMF gave such a direct challenge to an independent central bank rather than rebuke the nation's government for letting spending and inflation get out of control. Bailey needs to hit back tomorrow and tell the IMF to get back in their box and that the BoE is independent and won't be given lectures by anyone. I don't think he's doing a good job but the IMF needs to shut the fuck up when it comes to interest rates, that's not their remit. Maybe they need to tell Labour to cut spending and public sector salaries to bring inflation down so that the BoE can bring rates down as they were doing under the previous government.

    The IMF are very arrogant.

    They seem to view themselves as an arbiter of global governance.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,374
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Is a Palestinian state covering all the land from the river to the sea going to happen now? No, of course not. Israel is militarily dominant, in control of Gaza and the West Bank, and expanding its control over southern Syria.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085
    edited July 29
    IanB2 said:

    PJH said:

    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).

    Don't the LDs now have the highest proportion of numerically safe seats?
    If we take 10,000 as 'numerically safe', Greens and Plaid both have 2 out of 4 - 50%
    LDs have 25/72 - just over a third
    Lab - 115/411 - between a quarter and a third
    Con - 5/121 - buttons
    Ref - 0/5
    SNP - 0/9
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Nope the world’s sympathy is with the people unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

    Problem is Israel has done nothing to help them for years / decades which allows Hamas (quietly supported by / proxy of Iran) to take over the country as no one else was providing the money required
    They did quite a lot in 2006.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Nope the world’s sympathy is with the people unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

    Problem is Israel has done nothing to help them for years / decades which allows Hamas (quietly supported by / proxy of Iran) to take over the country as no one else was providing the money required
    Worse than that, Israel actively wanted Hamas to run Gaza so that a Palestinian state remained unviable
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,995
    edited July 29

    MaxPB said:

    I'm trying to think of the last time the IMF gave such a direct challenge to an independent central bank rather than rebuke the nation's government for letting spending and inflation get out of control. Bailey needs to hit back tomorrow and tell the IMF to get back in their box and that the BoE is independent and won't be given lectures by anyone. I don't think he's doing a good job but the IMF needs to shut the fuck up when it comes to interest rates, that's not their remit. Maybe they need to tell Labour to cut spending and public sector salaries to bring inflation down so that the BoE can bring rates down as they were doing under the previous government.

    The IMF are very arrogant.

    They seem to view themselves as an arbiter of global governance.
    They are the Guardians of The Copybook Headings


    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Is a Palestinian state covering all the land from the river to the sea going to happen now? No, of course not. Israel is militarily dominant, in control of Gaza and the West Bank, and expanding its control over southern Syria.
    This is not the thinking of your average Hamas Joe.

    For them, they are winning. They, or parts of Greater Palestine, for want of a better term, are getting what they want. Recognition by all kinds of countries. Why should they stop now.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,337
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Nope the world’s sympathy is with the people unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

    Problem is Israel has done nothing to help them for years / decades which allows Hamas (quietly supported by / proxy of Iran) to take over the country as no one else was providing the money required
    Worse than that, Israel actively wanted Hamas to run Gaza so that a Palestinian state remained unviable
    Not as I understand it. They hosed money at Hamas because they thought they could buy them off/keep them from biting the hand that fed them. They got that wrong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548

    IanB2 said:

    PJH said:

    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).

    Don't the LDs now have the highest proportion of numerically safe seats?
    If we take 10,000 as 'numerically safe', Greens and Plaid both have 2 out of 4 - 50%
    LDs have 25/72 - just over a third
    Lab - 115/411 - between a quarter and a third
    Con - 5/121 - buttons
    Ref - 0/5
    SNP - 0/9
    So remarkable that the LDs have more % nominally safe MPs than Tory or Labour. Even if voter volatility means they're likely not as safe as it appears
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    The grand historical irony here is that Jews have always been at the intellectual forefront of multiracial policies in the West. See the history of migration law across the western world, in particular America - the liberalisation (and the ending of favouritism for whites/Europeans) was driven by Jewish intellectuals (and others, of course)

    This was for very sensible reasons, or so it seemed back in the day. Firstly a lot of Jews firmly believed in the intrinsic good of multiracial societies, and secondly many Jews felt that they would be safer in pluralistic, diverse countries, where they would be just one minority amongst many. Ergo, less exposed. Less likely to be persecuted

    However, and in the end, these policies have led to the west importing lots of anti-Semites, and lots of voters who pressure their governments to take anti-Israel positions
  • PJHPJH Posts: 884
    IanB2 said:

    PJH said:

    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).

    Don't the LDs now have the highest proportion of numerically safe seats?
    You might be right. A complete change for a party that only held 2 seats unbroken through all of the 2015, 2017 and 2019 elections!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Tricky isn't it. The government of a territory invades your country seeking to kill as many of your citizens as possible. You then wake up, and invade back and your efforts at invading back and trying to defeat that country (because that's how wars are fought, not between peoples, but between governments who act on behalf of their country) are very successful.

    When do you stop as your enemy continues to resist.

    I mean if they had had twitter in 1945 then the allies would have deemed the biggest bunch of genocidal maniacs ever to have fought a war.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085
    edited July 29
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    PJH said:

    Fun fact: The Conservatives have only 5 seats with a majority greater than 10,000. I didn't realise they had lost quite so badly. (By comparison, there are 25 LD MPs with a 10,000 seat majority).

    Don't the LDs now have the highest proportion of numerically safe seats?
    If we take 10,000 as 'numerically safe', Greens and Plaid both have 2 out of 4 - 50%
    LDs have 25/72 - just over a third
    Lab - 115/411 - between a quarter and a third
    Con - 5/121 - buttons
    Ref - 0/5
    SNP - 0/9
    So remarkable that the LDs have more % nominally safe MPs than Tory or Labour. Even if voter volatility means they're likely not as safe as it appears
    Its better than that (not like me to big up the Libs!) They also have a far lower % of hyper marginals (less than 2% swing required) than either Labour or the Tories
    Having said that, the volatility will make probably the first 25 or so of their 72 a bit hairem scarem
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    Leon said:

    The grand historical irony here is that Jews have always been at the intellectual forefront of multiracial policies in the West. See the history of migration law across the western world, in particular America - the liberalisation (and the ending of favouritism for whites/Europeans) was driven by Jewish intellectuals (and others, of course)

    This was for very sensible reasons, or so it seemed back in the day. Firstly a lot of Jews firmly believed in the intrinsic good of multiracial societies, and secondly many Jews felt that they would be safer in pluralistic, diverse countries, where they would be just one minority amongst many. Ergo, less exposed. Less likely to be persecuted

    However, and in the end, these policies have led to the west importing lots of anti-Semites, and lots of voters who pressure their governments to take anti-Israel positions

    The jews really should have given up trying to get people to like them by now. You know what the definition of insanity is.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    So the Israeli government have iyo messed up by doing what they've done to Gaza and its population?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,387

    MaxPB said:

    I'm trying to think of the last time the IMF gave such a direct challenge to an independent central bank rather than rebuke the nation's government for letting spending and inflation get out of control. Bailey needs to hit back tomorrow and tell the IMF to get back in their box and that the BoE is independent and won't be given lectures by anyone. I don't think he's doing a good job but the IMF needs to shut the fuck up when it comes to interest rates, that's not their remit. Maybe they need to tell Labour to cut spending and public sector salaries to bring inflation down so that the BoE can bring rates down as they were doing under the previous government.

    The IMF are very arrogant.

    They seem to view themselves as an arbiter of global governance.
    For me it's the subtle change in blame, if this was a Tory government they'd be screaming at the top of their lungs about inflation getting out of control again and the need to raise taxes on the rich etc... but now that it's a Labour government they're putting it on the BoE rather than fiscal policy. The IMF are there to help their friends in liberal lefty governments and punish right wing ones, it's yet another organisation captured by liberals, we just have to hope Trump will force changes to it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
  • PJHPJH Posts: 884
    kle4 said:
    Because the weather in Scotland is such that nobody in their right mind from Africa or a Caribbean Island would migrate there?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    Nope the world’s sympathy is with the people unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

    Problem is Israel has done nothing to help them for years / decades which allows Hamas (quietly supported by / proxy of Iran) to take over the country as no one else was providing the money required
    Worse than that, Israel actively wanted Hamas to run Gaza so that a Palestinian state remained unviable
    Not as I understand it. They hosed money at Hamas because they thought they could buy them off/keep them from biting the hand that fed them. They got that wrong.
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    8th October 2023:

    "The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from"
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,730
    kle4 said:
    Hopefully scotland, like many places, gets its academics from all around. England, for one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    MattW said:

    A fairly detailed look at Reform UK running Kent, in the Kent & Surrey Bylines ultralocal site. It's a part of the Byeline Times network, so broadly sceptical. Mainly of interest because Kent are the first to get Dolged.

    https://kentandsurreybylines.co.uk/politics/local-government/inside-the-turquoise-tornado-reform-uks-tumultuous-first-90-days-running-kent/

    Video based on this piece, from vlogger Bowlerhat Man, who has been tracking Reform local authorities in detail (25 minutes):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMlzba6134o

    One of Reform’s repeated claims was that the previous Tory-run council had been thriftless and improvident. spending resources inappropriately. Even the Tories’ opponents, though, reject that charge. Sevenoaks Liberal Democrat councillor Richard Streatfeild dismissed Reform’s promises to cut waste and excessive spending, as “based on the false claims that Kent Council was wasteful. But years of austerity have seen local government finances slashed by 40 per cent. So there is now simply no waste or fat to cut” he insists.

    Kent County Council currently has a budget totalling £1.6bn, but only 5% of that can be spent on “discretionary services”. So most of the funds are earmarked for essential issues such as education and adult services.


    Look hard enough and you can still find things, but there's so much that is simply out of the hands of local councils - experienced parties still overpromise what they can do too, but may be more prepared internally at least for more realistic achievements. This being a case in point.


    “I’m not entirely convinced it’s the right thing for Kent”, [The Leader] said. “I will be making it my priority to find out as much as I can over the coming weeks and months to help formulate our response to LGR.”

    In truth, the final decision on reorganisation is out of her hands and in Whitehall’s. But to no one’s surprise, Kemkaran attempted to kick the proposals down the road. Claiming the November deadline was “almost impossible” to meet, she pleaded for it to be postponed until March. She got short shrift and a “hard no” from local government minister Jim McMahon, who told her to get on with it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    So the Israeli government have iyo messed up by doing what they've done to Gaza and its population?
    It was a lose-lose situation. I don't think "messed up" covers it. Going into it, sensible commentators (Stark Dawning on here I believe also) realised that Hamas was about to gain a huge victory and so it proved. Not in manpower, because Hamas doesn't care about that, but in geopolitical advantage.

    Usually when something like this happened Israel retaliates and waits to be told to stop. Then there are a few years where everyone forgets about it all and then there is provocation and it happens again. And again.

    This time, Israel decided not to stop. Was that the right choice? Upthread you said they have gone too far. What is the number of people (the majority of casualties have been FAMs) you would prefer them to have killed. And why not one more or one fewer.

    I don't have the answer but Israel it seems wanted to rid Gaza of Hamas once and for all. An aim they have manifestly failed to achieve. Should they have tried? No idea.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    edited July 29
    carnforth said:

    kle4 said:
    Hopefully scotland, like many places, gets its academics from all around. England, for one.
    Indeed, but what is the 'right' proportion to have? Is matching the demographics the end point? Surely not. But if making a comparison that it is far too low by making a comparison to a place and time with very different demographics, it suggests some other figure is sought , and if so what figure are we talking about? Is 5% 'enough'? Presumably there's no upper limit but the statement suggests there is a lower limit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The grand historical irony here is that Jews have always been at the intellectual forefront of multiracial policies in the West. See the history of migration law across the western world, in particular America - the liberalisation (and the ending of favouritism for whites/Europeans) was driven by Jewish intellectuals (and others, of course)

    This was for very sensible reasons, or so it seemed back in the day. Firstly a lot of Jews firmly believed in the intrinsic good of multiracial societies, and secondly many Jews felt that they would be safer in pluralistic, diverse countries, where they would be just one minority amongst many. Ergo, less exposed. Less likely to be persecuted

    However, and in the end, these policies have led to the west importing lots of anti-Semites, and lots of voters who pressure their governments to take anti-Israel positions

    The jews really should have given up trying to get people to like them by now. You know what the definition of insanity is.
    The Jews will never be liked because Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ of 115, a full standard deviation above white IQ, 10 points higher than East Asians, much higher than Arabs, etc. And if you don't like IQ then look at other metrics - Nobel prize winners per capita, Fields Medals per capita, CEOs, billionaires, chess grandmasters, you name it - per capita. Jews succeed out of all proportion to their numbers, because on average they are smarter and more driven (some would say more clannish, but that can be said of many peoples)

    Therefore they will nearly always succeed, economically, and will be notably richer than the average, if they are not repressed so hard they fail. This breeds resentment, then anti-Semitism, then persecution, then pogroms
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,008
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Apparently, some Labour MPs are unhappy that the PM has given Israel the chance to stop it from happening.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,337
    edited July 29
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
    That's a pretty close fit to the definition in the Genocide Convention, particularly Article 2 Part C, which we are a signatory of.

    I don't think having a political motivation for starving a group of people to death really cuts it as an excuse - you certainly wouldn't be defending it on that basis if the boot was on the other foot, and it was Hamas starving the Israeli people in order to force them to leave for Europe or the US.

    There are only two consistent positions, IMO - we do something about it or withdraw from the convention.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,152
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
    That's a pretty close fit to the definition in the Genocide Convention, particularly Article 2 Part C, which we are a signatory of. There are only two consistent positions, IMO - we do something about it or withdraw from the convention.
    Been a political observer long, have you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Apparently, some Labour MPs are unhappy that the PM has given Israel the chance to stop it from happening.
    'I'll only do the right thing if they do the wrong thing.'
    Principled.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    As of March 2025, a total of 147 UN member states recognise the State of Palestine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Palestine
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,746
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,292
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    So the Israeli government have iyo messed up by doing what they've done to Gaza and its population?
    Pretty much.

    The early bits of the retaliation- which did look like trying to destroy Hamas- were probably acceptable (war is always hell) but perhaps unwise (full victory meant destroying an idea, not just occupying territory, and that's always hard-to-impossible). Which was already a bit of a red flag, if you take the Christian theology of just war seriously. But the case was arguable, and it was possible to overlook the "Bibi needs a war to stay out of chokey" thing.

    The last few months have taken away the fig leaves of respectability. Even in a war, some things aren't right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
    That's a pretty close fit to the definition in the Genocide Convention, particularly Article 2 Part C, which we are a signatory of. There are only two consistent positions, IMO - we do something about it or withdraw from the convention.
    Fair enough. I wasn't picking an argument with the UN legal definition, I was pointing out the sane, OED definition of the word genocide. It means "to kill an entire race" - from the Greek genos = "race" + Latin cide - "kill"

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Apparently, some Labour MPs are unhappy that the PM has given Israel the chance to stop it from happening.
    'I'll only do the right thing if they do the wrong thing.'
    Principled.
    "These are my principles, and if you don't like them, well I have others." - G. Marx.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Apparently, some Labour MPs are unhappy that the PM has given Israel the chance to stop it from happening.
    'I'll only do the right thing if they do the wrong thing.'
    Principled.
    "These are my principles, and if you don't like them, well I have others." - G. Marx.
    Palestine should follow his example and message Starmer 'we don't want to be a member of any club that will accept us as a member'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    So the Israeli government have iyo messed up by doing what they've done to Gaza and its population?
    It was a lose-lose situation. I don't think "messed up" covers it. Going into it, sensible commentators (Stark Dawning on here I believe also) realised that Hamas was about to gain a huge victory and so it proved. Not in manpower, because Hamas doesn't care about that, but in geopolitical advantage.

    Usually when something like this happened Israel retaliates and waits to be told to stop. Then there are a few years where everyone forgets about it all and then there is provocation and it happens again. And again.

    This time, Israel decided not to stop. Was that the right choice? Upthread you said they have gone too far. What is the number of people (the majority of casualties have been FAMs) you would prefer them to have killed. And why not one more or one fewer.

    I don't have the answer but Israel it seems wanted to rid Gaza of Hamas once and for all. An aim they have manifestly failed to achieve. Should they have tried? No idea.
    In the initial aftermath there were some people who in effect downplayed the events which could have implied there should be no retaliation. We had people tearing down posters of hostages, which was sickening stuff. But Israel is the more powerful state, and the more powerful side is going to be the one which will be expected to exercise more control and restraint, certainly as time goes by, even if the threat still remains - which it does, given they're not able to eliminate Hamas.

    Hamas in the position of Israel would almost certainly do worse, but fortunately they are not in that position, so after this time and escalations Israel had to have known where geopolitical support would go.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,742
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Yes, it’s really rather odd.

    I would have more understanding if he came out and confirmed recognition, or if he didn’t.

    Saying “I will recognise a sovereign state unless you do X, Y and Z” feels very weird.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,850
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
    But he'll get that after the election anyway if the polls stay consistent.
    He gets the certainty of Number 10, against the probability of it.

    For a man who probably doesn't have two election campaigns ahead of him, that will look pretty attractive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Yes, it’s really rather odd.

    I would have more understanding if he came out and confirmed recognition, or if he didn’t.

    Saying “I will recognise a sovereign state unless you do X, Y and Z” feels very weird.
    What if he does, and then they take the action, withdraw the recognition?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    I'll grant I've not looked deeply into the official reasoning behind it, but it does seem most peculiar. Is everyone just officially committed to some fantasy idea of a fully unifed Somalia and so cannot break from that position?

    Apparently Somaliland hopes Trump will be the one to break ranks on their recognition. Name one of their cities Donald and he might even do it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    Former Blighty territory too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
    But he'll get that after the election anyway if the polls stay consistent.
    He gets the certainty of Number 10, against the probability of it.

    For a man who probably doesn't have two election campaigns ahead of him, that will look pretty attractive.
    i agree. Farage would likely take that. It would also give him extra respectability. So it's win-win for both rightwing parties - it saves the Tories (after a fashion) and ushers Nige into Number 10
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,330
    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    I'll grant I've not looked deeply into the official reasoning behind it, but it does seem most peculiar. Is everyone just officially committed to some fantasy idea of a fully unifed Somalia and so cannot break from that position?

    Apparently Somaliland hopes Trump will be the one to break ranks on their recognition. Name one of their cities Donald and he might even do it.
    Hargeisa.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    Former Blighty territory too.
    Well done...Gavin Williamson?!

    On 4 July 2023, Gavin Williamson proposed a bill to the UK Parliament that would require the United Kingdom to recognise the Republic of Somaliland.[6]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland–United_Kingdom_relations
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Yes, it’s really rather odd.

    I would have more understanding if he came out and confirmed recognition, or if he didn’t.

    Saying “I will recognise a sovereign state unless you do X, Y and Z” feels very weird.
    What if he does, and then they take the action, withdraw the recognition?
    Starmer to recognise Palestine then immediately deny them thrice before the cock crows
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548
    edited July 29
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The grand historical irony here is that Jews have always been at the intellectual forefront of multiracial policies in the West. See the history of migration law across the western world, in particular America - the liberalisation (and the ending of favouritism for whites/Europeans) was driven by Jewish intellectuals (and others, of course)

    This was for very sensible reasons, or so it seemed back in the day. Firstly a lot of Jews firmly believed in the intrinsic good of multiracial societies, and secondly many Jews felt that they would be safer in pluralistic, diverse countries, where they would be just one minority amongst many. Ergo, less exposed. Less likely to be persecuted

    However, and in the end, these policies have led to the west importing lots of anti-Semites, and lots of voters who pressure their governments to take anti-Israel positions

    You know what the definition of insanity is.
    Posting braindead crap night after night whilst simultaneously claiming superior intelligence?

    Just a wild guess.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,698
    edited July 29
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    kle4 said:
    Hopefully scotland, like many places, gets its academics from all around. England, for one.
    Indeed, but what is the 'right' proportion to have? Is matching the demographics the end point? Surely not. But if making a comparison that it is far too low by making a comparison to a place and time with very different demographics, it suggests some other figure is sought , and if so what figure are we talking about? Is 5% 'enough'? Presumably there's no upper limit but the statement suggests there is a lower limit.
    See the whole article, not a small snippet.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/jul/29/prof-tommy-curry-edinburgh-university-racism-slavery-review

    Edit: the Prof's comments are clearly to be read in the journalist's report's context.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,880
    edited July 29
    Starmer seems to have taken a position that pleases err... noone. To use an "inalieable right" (His words) as a bargaining tool is also preposterous.
    Netanyahu will ignore him anyway. But what if a ceasefire comes about say in November. Do we recognise and then derecognise Palestine.

    The whole thing is ridiculous.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    Former Blighty territory too.
    Well done...Gavin Williamson?!

    On 4 July 2023, Gavin Williamson proposed a bill to the UK Parliament that would require the United Kingdom to recognise the Republic of Somaliland.[6]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland–United_Kingdom_relations
    I have posted on pb.com from Somaliland.
    VPN! Arrest that man, Sir Keir
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,548

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Yes, it’s really rather odd.

    I would have more understanding if he came out and confirmed recognition, or if he didn’t.

    Saying “I will recognise a sovereign state unless you do X, Y and Z” feels very weird.
    He's on the tightrope between his party and Trump
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    edited July 29
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.

    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    If they are recognising the Palestinian State, that would involve recognising the PLA as the government of all Palestinian Territories.

    Including Gaza.

    UK/French recognition would probably kickoff is wave of recognitions by other governments. So very rapidly the PLA would become the internationally recognised government of Gaza.

    Which would shove Hamas further into a corner.
    How would it do that unless we're going to put boots on the ground and eliminate Hamas? What are we going to do otherwise, with hold aid from the people until they disband? That's absolutely barbaric and people wouldn't stand for it.
    It's showboating with no conceivable implementation plan. The only thing it would do and has done is recommit Hamas to continue to hold the hostages and maintain the armed struggle. They are being rewarded for October 7th. Which is fine and dandy - the definition of freedom fighter and terrorist always depends upon your point of view.

    I suppose it is disappointing that the UK government lines up in support of Hamas with the most decisive action they could take (recognition).

    Unless in the small print (I didn't click the link) it says this is conditional on Hamas vacating government or releasing the hostages, or feeding their own people.
    Israel estimates that they've killed over 50% of Hamas fighters. Hamas do not come out of this as the winners. They are not being rewarded.

    Feeding the people of Gaza is the responsibility of the occupying force, i.e. Israel.
    Hamas has overwhelmingly won. You need to get inside the head of a terrorist freedom fighter terrorist.

    The entire world is lined up against Israel right now. They are pariahs. The world's sympathy is with Hamas and people on here, for example, are using Hamas talking points to discuss the middle east situation.

    In every conceivable way, including its members killed because they - and Gaza's children for that matter - are now glorious martyrs in the cause of creating a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, Hamas have won.
    So the Israeli government have iyo messed up by doing what they've done to Gaza and its population?
    It was a lose-lose situation. I don't think "messed up" covers it. Going into it, sensible commentators (Stark Dawning on here I believe also) realised that Hamas was about to gain a huge victory and so it proved. Not in manpower, because Hamas doesn't care about that, but in geopolitical advantage.

    Usually when something like this happened Israel retaliates and waits to be told to stop. Then there are a few years where everyone forgets about it all and then there is provocation and it happens again. And again.

    This time, Israel decided not to stop. Was that the right choice? Upthread you said they have gone too far. What is the number of people (the majority of casualties have been FAMs) you would prefer them to have killed. And why not one more or one fewer.

    I don't have the answer but Israel it seems wanted to rid Gaza of Hamas once and for all. An aim they have manifestly failed to achieve. Should they have tried? No idea.
    Well nobody has the answer. Fwiw I think both sides have lost (as they deserve to) from Oct 7th and the disproportionate response to it. Israel's name is mud and (SKS today notwithstanding) a viable Palestinian state anytime soon has become even less likely.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    edited July 29
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
    That's a pretty close fit to the definition in the Genocide Convention, particularly Article 2 Part C, which we are a signatory of.

    I don't think having a political motivation for starving a group of people to death really cuts it as an excuse - you certainly wouldn't be defending it on that basis if the boot was on the other foot, and it was Hamas starving the Israeli people in order to force them to leave for Europe or the US.

    There are only two consistent positions, IMO - we do something about it or withdraw from the convention.
    PS you amended this comment to claim that I am "defending" Israel's actions. Which I certainly am fucking not

    My initial remark explicitly said that Israel's behaviour vis-a-vis the Palestinians is "cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,535

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    Former Blighty territory too.
    Well done...Gavin Williamson?!

    On 4 July 2023, Gavin Williamson proposed a bill to the UK Parliament that would require the United Kingdom to recognise the Republic of Somaliland.[6]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland–United_Kingdom_relations
    I have posted on pb.com from Somaliland.
    VPN! Arrest that man, Sir Keir
    There was a surprisngly good internet connection at the very clean and well organised hotel I stayed at.

    With my ex-SAS close protection officer.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,696
    edited July 29
    Picking up a couple of FPT replies:

    MattW said:

    Do we have anyone near Barnstaple with Westmacott (July 31 Local Election)?

    The Ref UK candidate David Jarvis seems to be quite exotic. Barnstaple is, I think, part of the "South Coast Bible Belt".

    Surely North Coast (of Devon).
    I'd probably see it as running from South Coast to Bristol, taking in eg non-conformists, and Bristol as bases for Wesley, and especially Whitefield. There is nonconformist history not unlike East Anglia. From up here the North Somerset Coast *is* South. But that depends on regional views - I occasionally have a small go at Southerners in Leicestershire, just to remind them who they are :smile: .

    MattW said:

    Do we have anyone near Barnstaple with Westmacott (July 31 Local Election)?

    The Ref UK candidate David Jarvis seems to be quite exotic. Barnstaple is, I think, part of the "South Coast Bible Belt".

    More details of him, and another one, here:
    https://hopenothate.org.uk/2025/07/22/meet-the-homophobic-conspiracy-theorist-and-the-tommy-robinson-fan-standing-for-reform-uk/
    A lovely pair.
    WRT David Jarvis I think there are interesting cultural factors going on. His Election address here is quite innocuos in the main, and is clearly sincere. He's a 65 year old ex-postman, who has worked internationally and widely. Recently baptised (2009), and a Christian fundamentalist of sorts (I'd punt Assemblies of God or similar, but that's marginal).

    I'd put him in the traditionalist wing of Reform, rather than eg the Tommy Robinson supporting fringe.

    He's a political naif (no involvement until 2023), and has been skewered for various fundamentalist beliefs - 1950s attitude to homosexuality and so on, and has some conspiracy theories alongside. Politically he's emerged blinking into the sunlight.

    He's one of the types that the other parties need to get back.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The value bet, surely, is on the Reformed Conservatives, led by Nigel Farage to win the next election.

    If the Conservative Party is staring defeat in the face in late 2027, and it is clear that a merger with Reform will save a *lot* of MPs jobs, then it becomes the most likely outcome.

    But why would Nige/Reform want to take that baggage, I'm sure they'll accept a few defections but in the run up to the election does he really want to be bogged down with MPs who were in the previous government that oversaw 2m net migration in 3 years?
    Because he'd inherit the Conservatives money and infrastructure, and eliminate the only competition on the right. So long as he was the one in charge, then Reform voters would go with it.
    But he'll get that after the election anyway if the polls stay consistent.
    He gets the certainty of Number 10, against the probability of it.

    For a man who probably doesn't have two election campaigns ahead of him, that will look pretty attractive.
    i agree. Farage would likely take that. It would also give him extra respectability. So it's win-win for both rightwing parties - it saves the Tories (after a fashion) and ushers Nige into Number 10
    Instant 40% plus in the polls. A tempter for Farage and the Tories. Given it hands him the keys to number 10, the Tories could probably extract much more than they should from any such deal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Perhaps you should click the link.
    Perhaps you should? Nowhere does it say that the government will halt any recognition if Hamas doesn't meet the conditions only if Israel doesn't. Two Tier Keir. Letting terrorists off the hook, nothing new there.
    That’s because currently the Israeli government is doing to Gaza what Germany did to the Jews which guilted the world gifting land within Palestine to allow the Israel state to be formed
    6m Jewish people died in the Holocaust, this is not comparable in any way. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is fighting back, a terrorist organisation started a war and are reaping the consequences of it. It is within their gift to end the siege of Gaza by offering their unconditional surrender, they have chosen not to do so and Israel has a right to retrieve it's citizens held as hostages.
    Armenian Genocide was something around 1 million; there are about 2 million people in Gaza. Curious what the numerical cut off is - or is it a percentage completion rate?

    The whole point of the post-war conventions and settlements was that the extermination of a group of people was never excusable, regardless of the provocation, and that there is an obligation on us, the 6th largest economy and a top 10 military power, to do whatever we can to prevent that happening again.

    It's a sign of weakness, moral cowardice that so many people are willing to drop that principle and make precisely the same feeble excuses out forebears warned us about. My Standard Grade History teacher anticipated people like you, but also me - blithely and impotently sitting doing nothing as millions starve.
    Israel is not attempting a genocide. It is not trying to kill all Palestinians, not in the same way Hitler tried to kill all Jews or Turkey tried to kill all Armenians. It is, instead, attempting a violent ethnic cleansing, by making life so brutal, miserable and insufferable for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank that they eventually give up and accept the "offer" to move somewhere else (as far away from Israel as possible, if Israel gets to decide)

    It is cruel, ruthless, bloody and very arguably a great evil. But it isn't genocide. We should restrict that word for its proper usage
    That's a pretty close fit to the definition in the Genocide Convention, particularly Article 2 Part C, which we are a signatory of. There are only two consistent positions, IMO - we do something about it or withdraw from the convention.
    Fair enough. I wasn't picking an argument with the UN legal definition, I was pointing out the sane, OED definition of the word genocide. It means "to kill an entire race" - from the Greek genos = "race" + Latin cide - "kill"
    To try to. Not quite managing it wouldn't disqualify you.
  • tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Apparently, some Labour MPs are unhappy that the PM has given Israel the chance to stop it from happening.
    Do any of them live in Gaza by any chance? Because if they did, they'd maybe prioritise a deal over an empty gesture.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,592
    edited July 29
    The Gazette has asked me to write about this thing called "the Online Safety Act"

    Has anyone got any thoughts? I hear bad things
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,085

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Starmer says UK will recognise Palestinian statehood in September unless Israel agrees ceasefire and two-state solution

    Downing Street has just issued its readout of today’s cabinet meeting on Gaza.

    Here is the key extract.

    Turning to recognition, the prime minister said it had been this government’s longstanding position that recognition of a Palestinian state was an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and that we would recognise a Palestinian state as part of a process to peace and a two state solution.

    He said that because of the increasingly intolerable situation in Gaza and the diminishing prospect of a peace process towards a two state solution, now was the right time to move this position forward. He said that the UK will recognise the state of Palestine in September, before UNGA, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, reaches a ceasefire, makes clear there will be no annexation in the West Bank, and commits to a long-term peace process that delivers a two state solution. He reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-politics-latest-news-cabinet-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-online-safety-act

    No preconditions on Hamas surrendering then, capitulation by the government and rewarding them for October 7th. Disgusting.
    Didn't you read the last paragraph?
    But they’re getting recognition without doing any of our demands.
    They are getting no part in the Palestinian government. That doesn't sound like recognition to me.

    It is recognition of the PLA as the legitimate government of Palestine.
    But what if Hamas are still there in practice doing the governing? We can recognise the PLA all we want and it will make precisely zero difference if Hamas are still making bombs, holding hostages and firing rockets into Israel.
    If Hamas can continue to fight for nearly 2 years despite complete blockade, complete surveillance from land sea and air without resupply against the most powerful military in the middle east, I don't think they are too bothered about our opinion. Indeed it is this fanatical resilience that has driven the IDF to that ancient siege tactic of starvation and disease.

    Recognising the PLA as the national state and gaza as part of their territory is not recognising Hamas, it is recognising their political rivals
    But what does it mean in practice if the PLA are unable to dislodge Hamas? The true government of Palestine will be Hamas and we will have recognised that state. It's rewarding Hamas for October 7th.
    It is recognising the PLA in the West Bank as government, with Gaza as a rebel province.

    So not very different to recognising Ukraine, but not the puppet governments in Russian occupied Ukraine.
    Interesting by SKS - his statement (or at least 3mins of it) came up on my X feed. Unless Israel does xyz then the UK will recognise the state of Palestine (he didn't in that clip say which part or where that would be).

    Which means that if Israel does do xyz (aid, etc) then the UK won't recognise the state of Palestine.

    Which sounds like a pretty flaky approach to recognising a (presumably sovereign) state. Either the UK thinks there should be one or it doesn't. If it does then what's with the conditionality. If it doesn't then what's with the conditionality.
    Recognition for 98% of countries is cut and dried, and the other 2% is presumably conditional, but it surely is not usually stated so plainly to be so.
    It's a disgrace that we don't recognise Somaliland. Should have done so decades ago.

    Nobody can ever give a good reason as to why we condemn that country and its citizens to a bizarre, passportless limbo and a fictional union with one of the world's undoubtedly failed states.
    Former Blighty territory too.
    Well done...Gavin Williamson?!

    On 4 July 2023, Gavin Williamson proposed a bill to the UK Parliament that would require the United Kingdom to recognise the Republic of Somaliland.[6]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland–United_Kingdom_relations
    I have posted on pb.com from Somaliland.
    VPN! Arrest that man, Sir Keir
    There was a surprisngly good internet connection at the very clean and well organised hotel I stayed at.

    With my ex-SAS close protection officer.
    Great Internet in iffy places. The modern 'beautiful view from Hangmans Hill'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,270
    Leon said:

    The Gazette has asked me to write about this thing called "the Online Safety Act"

    Has anyone got any thoughts? I hear bad things

    Its very simple if you have any issues with it you are a fan of Jimmy Savile....and that is all there is to it.
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