Any ‘young person’ who wants to provoke real change. Who really wants to disrupt the status quo. Who genuinely fancies indulging in a little bit of teenage rebellion. Who are they going to turn to? Keir Starmer? The man who encapsulates all the radicalism and latent insurgency of a bored double-glazing salesman from Milton Keynes. ‘What do we want?’ ‘A New Border Security Command!!!’ ‘When do we want it?’ ‘As soon as we have stabilised the economy and resources allow!!!’
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
They are also a democracy, whereas their neighboura are not.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Surely proving intent to destroy a national or religious or ethnic group in Gaza is going to be difficult as long as it can be proven that Hamas used human shields, no matter the number of dead. People have been saying that it's a genocide since Hamas' propaganda figures were 4:1 Civillian:Military deaths which I'm sad to say is nothing special. So I'm sceptical.
Per Wikipedia:
Between January 2008 and October 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
Even if accurate, high civilian numbers aren't sufficient to prove intent, especially in the context of human shields. It's entirely arguable that Hamas are responsible for those deaths. It is tragic and horrible, but intent and context are important. Just listing numbers off Wikipedia, I don't think that would satisfy the ICC for some reason.
If the choice was Netanyahu or Hamas, lots of us would have difficulty, but it's very easy to reject both. More specifically, to reject the excuse that it's OK to kill a hundred civilians if it gets one member of the opposite camp.
I'm by descent Jewish and pro-Israel - my mother worked for UNRRA (not to be confused with UNWRA) until they closed, specifically with a view to helping Jews during and after WW2. But Netanyahu's policies seem to me both repellent and unlikely to work (since killing a hundred civilians almost certainly persuades a few relatives to join Hamas).
It really shouldn't be that difficult Nick. Netanyahu might be a bad guy but Hamas are frankly sick. They have a total disregard for human life and sadistic enjoyment of suffering. Frankly I'm giving up all hope in the western left who seem psychologically incapable of seeing how bad the other side are.
Per Wikipedia:
Between January 2008 and October 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
I've had to change the layout of the comments on a desktop so the mobile site is useable.
I despise Vanilla, they have a different definition of upgrade to the rest of us.
Sadly, if I recall, the last time we had massive upgrade crisis @rcs1000 looked into all the other community site options and none of them worked for PB for various reasons.
Anyway, thanks to you guys for keeping the ship on the sea. God knows what I would do with my time if I wasn't on here!!! Probably have to get a dog and take photos of it on long walks.
I've had to change the layout of the comments on a desktop so the mobile site is useable.
I despise Vanilla, they have a different definition of upgrade to the rest of us.
Sadly, if I recall, the last time we had massive upgrade crisis @rcs1000 looked into all the other community site options and none of them worked for PB for various reasons.
Anyway, thanks to you guys for keeping the ship on the sea. God knows what I would do with my time if I wasn't on here!!! Probably have to get a dog and take photos of it on long walks.
The problem is every other comment system we've looked at has nested comments, PB needs a linear comment system.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
As they don't execute gays unlike some Muslim majority nations, nor do they require women to be veiled and restrict female education and careers unlike some majority Muslim nations and nor do Jews tend to be involved in terror attacks on western cities unlike a few Muslim extremists.
On average Jews also contribute a lot as immigrants and are more educated and higher earning on average than the native population whereas not all Muslims of working age are in paid work, some on welfare
I've had to change the layout of the comments on a desktop so the mobile site is useable.
I despise Vanilla, they have a different definition of upgrade to the rest of us.
Broken on desktop now unless I make browser full screen. And the left hand side is wasted for a few links, below which is empty space all the way down.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
They tend to have less of a history of blowing bits of us up.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
As they don't execute gays unlike some Muslim majority nations, nor do they require women to be veiled and restrict female education and careers unlike some majority Muslim nations and nor do Jews tend to be involved in terror attacks on western cities unlike a few Muslim extremists
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Depends which Christians when you talk about what Christians believe. Anglican and RC types have very different ideas to some that they smear as heresies, but they don't own the concept of Christianity of course. There are Christians that believe the Abrahamic God is a demiurge
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
They tend to have less of a history of blowing bits of us up.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Maybe it would be different if so many of our Church leaders were in the 46%, not the 37%.
Most Protestant evangelical and Roman Catholic and Orthodox church leaders are, the agnostic, borderline atheist liberal C of E bishop is less prominent than they were
Any ‘young person’ who wants to provoke real change. Who really wants to disrupt the status quo. Who genuinely fancies indulging in a little bit of teenage rebellion. Who are they going to turn to? Keir Starmer? The man who encapsulates all the radicalism and latent insurgency of a bored double-glazing salesman from Milton Keynes. ‘What do we want?’ ‘A New Border Security Command!!!’ ‘When do we want it?’ ‘As soon as we have stabilised the economy and resources allow!!!’
Perhaps when they put it in the manifesto they didn't think it all through?
There is an argument that by going through with it, they are being quite honourable, if it is true that Green, Jez and Reform are more popular with de yoot than people first thought
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
Where I learn all is impermanent. Everything is in a state of becoming. Which is the same as Vanilla.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims also believe in the God of Abraham. You might want to clarify again.
Trouble at Reform mill. Rumblings that Nigel desperately wants rid of Zia but he owns a lot of shares and knows where the skellingtons are buried. Shame you didnt set it up as a proper political party me old Spiv
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims also believe in the God of Abraham. You might want to clarify again.
I think Muslims believe that Jesus was the last prophet before Mohammed (PBUH).
Trouble at Reform mill. Rumblings that Nigel desperately wants rid of Zia but he owns a lot of shares and knows where the skellingtons are buried. Shame you didnt set it up as a political party rather than a ridiculous sort of grift me old Spiv
Was that Marge and Peter Skellington? I always wondered where they disappeared to.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
They tend to have less of a history of blowing bits of us up.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
They tend to have less of a history of blowing bits of us up.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims also believe in the God of Abraham. You might want to clarify again.
I think Muslims believe that Jesus was the last prophet before Mohammed (PBUH).
Wikipedia (I know...) suggests Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad are all prophets for Muslims.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
Lots of young ethnic minority Labour voters are regular church goers in the UK.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
I'm glad the distress caused by the font and layout issues connected to the upgrade have been resolved with no change in the look and feel of the site. That's my tuppenceworth for today
I take back what I said earlier (above). The site is now unusable - for my MacBook Air anyway. I can't contol the page width (it's too wide), it should resize with the window, not be fixed width, and the typeface may look elegant but is less easy to actually read I've also lost access to emojis - which I don't usually use but with which I want to show a thumbs down ... boo ... even if @dixiedean is happy with his mobile version
I'm glad the distress caused by the font and layout issues connected to the upgrade have been resolved with no change in the look and feel of the site. That's my tuppenceworth for today
I take back what I said earlier (above). The site is now unusable - for my MacBook Air anyway. I can't contol the page width (it's too wide), it should resize with the window, not be fixed width, and the typeface may look elegant but is less easy to actually read I've also lost access to emojis - which I don't usually use but with which I want to show a thumbs down ... boo ... even if @dixiedean is happy with his mobile version
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
You don't tens to see that particular offemce in the men's game! I don't know how she has the audacity to look so indignant. I've rarely seen such a clear-cut sending off.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
Lula who was struggling in polls has seen a bounce and the 50% tariffs are likely to have the biggest impact on Bolsonaro’s voting regions .
Lula is now portraying him as a traitor who got his friend to stick tariffs on the country . It’s quite extraordinary that tariffs are now being used to try and interfere in another countries judicial system.
Brazil has a trade deficit with the USA .
Also rapidly developing its trading relationship with China.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
I share your atheism, but not your view that it is obvious that the world will tremd that way.
Surely proving intent to destroy a national or religious or ethnic group in Gaza is going to be difficult as long as it can be proven that Hamas used human shields, no matter the number of dead. People have been saying that it's a genocide since Hamas' propaganda figures were 4:1 Civillian:Military deaths which I'm sad to say is nothing special. So I'm sceptical.
Per Wikipedia:
Between January 2008 and October 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023: Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851 Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
Even if accurate, high civilian numbers aren't sufficient to prove intent, especially in the context of human shields. It's entirely arguable that Hamas are responsible for those deaths. It is tragic and horrible, but intent and context are important. Just listing numbers off Wikipedia, I don't think that would satisfy the ICC for some reason.
If the choice was Netanyahu or Hamas, lots of us would have difficulty, but it's very easy to reject both. More specifically, to reject the excuse that it's OK to kill a hundred civilians if it gets one member of the opposite camp.
I'm by descent Jewish and pro-Israel - my mother worked for UNRRA (not to be confused with UNWRA) until they closed, specifically with a view to helping Jews during and after WW2. But Netanyahu's policies seem to me both repellent and unlikely to work (since killing a hundred civilians almost certainly persuades a few relatives to join Hamas).
It really shouldn't be that difficult Nick. Netanyahu might be a bad guy but Hamas are frankly sick. They have a total disregard for human life and sadistic enjoyment of suffering. Frankly I'm giving up all hope in the western left who seem psychologically incapable of seeing how bad the other side are.
Yes, but rejecting Hamas shouldn't mean excusing Netanyahu. Otherwise he can get away with almost anything, because someone else is worse. It becomes as simple as that.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
In terms of fertility rate it is atheists dying out. Globally and in the UK as well Muslims have the highest fertility rate, then evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then mainline Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Hindus and last Buddhists and atheists.
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
Lula who was struggling in polls has seen a bounce and the 50% tariffs are likely to have the biggest impact on Bolsonaro’s voting regions .
Lula is now portraying him as a traitor who got his friend to stick tariffs on the country . It’s quite extraordinary that tariffs are now being used to try and interfere in another countries judicial system.
Brazil has a trade deficit with the USA .
Also rapidly developing its trading relationship with China.
President Monroe must be fairly spinning...
Bolsanoro if he came back would put a relationship with Trump's US first again, it is Lula who has dumped Trump for China
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
In terms of fertility rate it is atheists dying out. Globally and in the UK as well Muslims have the highest fertility rate, then evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then mainline Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Hindus and last Buddhists and atheists.
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
Funnily enough, children are born without any religion.
I’m very much in the atheist camp . I don’t judge or criticise people who are religious and if that gives more meaning and happiness to people then that’s great . Whatever helps people get through life as long as it doesnt harm others .
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
I share your atheism, but not your view that it is obvious that the world will tremd that way.
Tbf I didn’t say globally; we were discussing the UK. I suspect the new immigrant communities will, over time, trend the same was as the Jewish community has here, and in general become less religious.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
In terms of fertility rate it is atheists dying out. Globally and in the UK as well Muslims have the highest fertility rate, then evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then mainline Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Hindus and last Buddhists and atheists.
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
If atheists' aim is to avoid atheism dying out (I don't think it is, mind), this goal would be poorly served by them converting to deism.
Also, you can't choose your beliefs based on the outcomes you want. Your beliefs are what you believe: you can't really choose that. I could no more decide to believe that there s a god than you could decide to believe that there isn't.
Btw I am in Finland now and the weather (~ 28C, no wind, dry air) is absolutely perfect, especially if you get to semi-shade in a forest by a lake. So tervetuloa/välkommen when you and your hound get here next week
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
In terms of fertility rate it is atheists dying out. Globally and in the UK as well Muslims have the highest fertility rate, then evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then mainline Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Hindus and last Buddhists and atheists.
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
If atheists' aim is to avoid atheism dying out (I don't think it is, mind), this goal would be poorly served by them converting to deism.
Also, you can't choose your beliefs based on the outcomes you want. Your beliefs are what you believe: you can't really choose that. I could no more decide to believe that there s a god than you could decide to believe that there isn't.
I didn't say they could, I said atheists need to convert the young more and more to atheism each generation in greater numbers as in terms of birthrate they are reproducing far less than those with faith, especially Muslims and evangelical Christians.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
I share your atheism, but not your view that it is obvious that the world will tremd that way.
Tbf I didn’t say globally; we were discussing the UK. I suspect the new immigrant communities will, over time, trend the same was as the Jewish community has here, and in general become less religious.
The Orthodox Jewish community in the UK is also getting stronger as Orthodox Jews have more children on average than liberal and secular Jews
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
In terms of fertility rate it is atheists dying out. Globally and in the UK as well Muslims have the highest fertility rate, then evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews, then Roman Catholics, then mainline Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Hindus and last Buddhists and atheists.
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
If atheists' aim is to avoid atheism dying out (I don't think it is, mind), this goal would be poorly served by them converting to deism.
Also, you can't choose your beliefs based on the outcomes you want. Your beliefs are what you believe: you can't really choose that. I could no more decide to believe that there s a god than you could decide to believe that there isn't.
I don't think that birthrates have more than a marginal impact on the prevalance of religious belief. Lots of people born into Muslim or Haredic families fall away.
Secularism tends to be a product of individualism, which is pretty recent in human history. Most of the time, most people have tended to think of themselves first and foremost as members of households, families, clans, communities. These days, we don't (at least in rich world countries).
Individualism is driven by industrialisation, and urbanisation. If those trends were to reverse, you'd likely see societies become more religious.
Well seeing the picture of the t-shirt, you can understand why they might.
But the police have got themselves in a total mess over the past 18 months. They have let too many things slide where they took the most generous possible interruption of what people were saying, and now it seems they are going the other way.
Will the police provide guidance on the ratio of font sizes between the words "Palestine" and "Action" and the other words in the sentence at which this t-shirt crosses the line into terrorism?
There was a time when you could depend on a jury to get them over the line when faced with a law as insane as this. I'm pretty confident that'll happen this time. A few thousand posters of Netanyahu with an equal number of dismembered Palestinians with a good lawyer should do it .
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
Antidote rather than data, but in my patch of the evangelical world, there has been a noticeable increase in interest in Christianity, particularly from young people, in a pattern very similar to that implied by that survey. Our church (evangelical Anglican, just about still in the CofE, but not for much longer) has literally had teenagers (white, English, locals from birth) wander into church off the street ask what it's all about and become Christians - and talking to friends in similar churches, many have had similar experiences. Compared to 20, or even 10 years ago, this is remarkable - back then you had to lure the youth in with table tennis and pizza, and then barely any of them were even slightly interested in anything deeper.
Of course the CofE is still falling off the cliff, because the bulk of it doesn't actually belive in anything, which is a difficult message to sell with conviction. It's decline is also being accelerated because not only are it's only growing churches the fundimentalist evangelicals, those same churches are leaving the CofE in droves over gay marriage, either lock stock and barrel where that's possible, or more commonly by 85% of the congregation and 95% of the staff walking out and founding a new church outside the CofE just down the road.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Not my experience having met a lot of Muslim sixth formers in east London.
It has reached Dunkirk. Every single time the story of Dunkirk brings me close to tears. Those little boats....
Today's oddball fact. The senior surviving officer from the Titanic, 2nd Officer Charles Lightoller (the 'ill shoot you all like dogs' guy in the film) sailed his yacht over as one of the small boats
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
I share your atheism, but not your view that it is obvious that the world will tremd that way.
Tbf I didn’t say globally; we were discussing the UK. I suspect the new immigrant communities will, over time, trend the same was as the Jewish community has here, and in general become less religious.
Real full blown secularisation - where lots of people think non theism is the norm and some are hardly aware of other ways of being a western person - is too new to evaluate its future trend. Apart from anything else it is too new to know what are its emergent properties and unintended consequences.
For example, at the moment it is too new not to be dependent culturally on generations of culturally religious practices, customs and moral assumptions along with metaphysical assumption about human value.
Ethical monotheism - one of the key influential ideas in history - is fundamentally unrelated to secondary matters like turning up to church and singing ditties and the careful formation of the coffee rota, but goes much deeper. We have no real long term data about what happens once it has gone altogether. It won't be in my lifetime. And it may be never. It may be an ineradicable bit of the human condition by now.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Not my experience having met a lot of Muslim sixth formers in east London.
Jesus F C. It is the case
"The first generation of postwar Muslim immigrants to Britain, largely from the Indian subcontinent, was pious and culturally conservative, but wore its faith lightly. Many men drank alcohol. Few women wore the hijab.
"The second generation – my generation – was more secular. Our desire for equality led us to challenge not just racism but the obscurantism of mosques and faith leaders. The more hardline strands of Islam had little sway within British Muslim communities until the end of the 1980s. The irony is that, since then, a generation of Muslims far more integrated and “westernised” than the first came also to be the generation most insistent on maintaining its “difference”. A study by the Institute for the Impact of Faith in Life (IIFL) published last month found that young people were most likely to view themselves as Muslim more than British, while over-65s were twice as likely to identify as British first."
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
We don't.
We do favour liberal democracies like Israel over authoritarian dictatorships like Iran.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
Sadly not, however much I might wish it to be so. From last time we discussed this-
According to their data, 41% of the English and Welsh Church attendance in 2018 was in Anglican settings. Based on a total regular attendance of 3.7m people, we can calculate the Anglican attendance at around 1.5m. By 2024, Anglicans had reduced as a proportion to 34% but of a much larger reported attendance of 5.8m people, so we should be seeing an increase in attendance of around 500,000 to around 2m. In other words, the report claims that the Church of England has grown by a third since 2018.
There may well be big percentage growth in funkier churches, but the CofE is such a large part of British Christendom that the total can't plausibly grow without the CofE growing.
And other, better, measurements just don't show that.
It has reached Dunkirk. Every single time the story of Dunkirk brings me close to tears. Those little boats....
Today's oddball fact. The senior surviving officer from the Titanic, 2nd Officer Charles Lightoller (the 'ill shoot you all like dogs' guy in the film) sailed his yacht over as one of the small boats
The little boats helped, but the bulk of the work was done by the destroyers of the Royal Navy and a number of large ships.
The little boats mostly served as ferries between the shore and the larger ships.
It has reached Dunkirk. Every single time the story of Dunkirk brings me close to tears. Those little boats....
Today's oddball fact. The senior surviving officer from the Titanic, 2nd Officer Charles Lightoller (the 'ill shoot you all like dogs' guy in the film) sailed his yacht over as one of the small boats
He was the inspiration for the boat owner character in Mendes’s film
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Not my experience having met a lot of Muslim sixth formers in east London.
That doesn't surprise me. There was some research a few years ago, which agreed that Muslims were more religious, but rather than being "more devour and more conservative", they were also a lot more liberal. That certainly chimes with my experiences.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Not my experience having met a lot of Muslim sixth formers in east London.
I was once told the becoming more conservative and devout tends to follow as a young adult after a period of relative liberalism in the growing teen years, but I have no idea if the data backs that up.
I do think in general we're becoming more illiberal, and there does appear to be a market for explicitly religious politics as applies to Islam at least.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
It's certainly news to me that Jews believe Jesus was God!
In fact, Jews and Muslims clearly have the same God as each other. Trinitarian Christians, not so much.
To clarify, Jews don’t believe Jesus was God. Both Jews and Christians believe in the God of Abraham. Jews, AFAIK, don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God.
Muslims believe Jesus was Messiah, just not God and Muhammed is their main prophet.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
So, remind me again, PB, why do we favour Jews over Muslims?
We don't.
We do favour liberal democracies like Israel over authoritarian dictatorships like Iran.
With the best will in the world, I do not think it is rational to call Israel a "liberal" democracy anymore. The majority have voted for a fascistic, fanatical government intent on genocide.
It has reached Dunkirk. Every single time the story of Dunkirk brings me close to tears. Those little boats....
Today's oddball fact. The senior surviving officer from the Titanic, 2nd Officer Charles Lightoller (the 'ill shoot you all like dogs' guy in the film) sailed his yacht over as one of the small boats
The little boats helped, but the bulk of the work was done by the destroyers of the Royal Navy and a number of large ships.
The little boats mostly served as ferries between the shore and the larger ships.
Indeed. Charles didnt have a destroyer though so his yacht had to do! Im going to add a second blockbuster film war fact for your evening. The last British survivor of Rorkes Drift , Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne (much younger man than portrayed by Nigel Green, the youngest CS in the army actually) lived to see VE day, dying the day after.
Any ‘young person’ who wants to provoke real change. Who really wants to disrupt the status quo. Who genuinely fancies indulging in a little bit of teenage rebellion. Who are they going to turn to? Keir Starmer? The man who encapsulates all the radicalism and latent insurgency of a bored double-glazing salesman from Milton Keynes. ‘What do we want?’ ‘A New Border Security Command!!!’ ‘When do we want it?’ ‘As soon as we have stabilised the economy and resources allow!!!’
Perhaps when they put it in the manifesto they didn't think it all through?
I think there's been a tremendous success with the votes at 16 support in the last 5-10 years to the point it had/has become accepted by many people as obviously, intrinsically a good idea, and so even if hoping it would mean better support for Lab etc, I genuinely don't think that advantage played a big role in getting it into the manifesto. It was just one of the policies which was seen as inherently the right thing to do.
I don't like it for many reasons espoused before, but felt the battle was only ever going one way eventually.
It seems that Israel is on the good side because they’re like us. They have the same God, even if they don’t have the same support for Jesus. Whereas the other countries in the Middle East, don’t have the same God. Jesus was only a prophet of Mohammed.
If we ignored religion, and thought of Israel as just another Middle Eastern country, would we think of them the same as we do now? I suspect not.
Given that the UK is basically not religious why do we think the way we do?
How many PB contributors attend their church, or place of worship, regularly? I suspect that, apart from @HYUFD, not many.
Me. Every day.
It turned out that the PB demographic (older, more thoughtful about big questions) was more church-going than the average, I wouldn't be surprised. Though even then, a minority thing.
And a demographic that is moving on as fast as Tory voters and Telegraph readers, I expect.
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Yes, we have discussed this survey before. It’s self certification, of a group of people under moral self-pressure to over report, rather the inverse of the NHS asking us how much we drink each week. It’s also been commented on by people inside the CofE that it doesn’t match up either with their own anecdotal experience or the congregation count data the church itself collates.
If you had actually bothered to read the article rather than add your preconceived atheist prejudice, you would see it was the Roman Catholics and evangelical Pentecostals seeing the main growth in church going amongst the young, not the C of E.
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
I bet their children won’t be quite so religious. It’s just a matter of time.
This is palpable bollocks on multiple levels
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Not my experience having met a lot of Muslim sixth formers in east London.
Jesus F C. It is the case
"The first generation of postwar Muslim immigrants to Britain, largely from the Indian subcontinent, was pious and culturally conservative, but wore its faith lightly. Many men drank alcohol. Few women wore the hijab.
"The second generation – my generation – was more secular. Our desire for equality led us to challenge not just racism but the obscurantism of mosques and faith leaders. The more hardline strands of Islam had little sway within British Muslim communities until the end of the 1980s. The irony is that, since then, a generation of Muslims far more integrated and “westernised” than the first came also to be the generation most insistent on maintaining its “difference”. A study by the Institute for the Impact of Faith in Life (IIFL) published last month found that young people were most likely to view themselves as Muslim more than British, while over-65s were twice as likely to identify as British first."
You really do lack any ability to critically appraise anything, don’t you? That article, aside from being mostly one person’s data-free opinion, doesn’t support your earlier statements.
"To understand a group you must understand what they covet and the Norman appears to be obsessed with the following things: bikes, beer gardens, day festivals, Turnstile, “chilled reds,” Confidence Man, The Bear, weekends in Marseille, Instagram chefs who use death metal typefaces, sharing-plates with orange writing on them, soft-scoop ice cream, Loyle Carner, and steady-state cardio. Outside of the occasional blowout at a Bistrot Freddie or Cafe Cecilia they appear to exist solely on a diet of sandwiches, featuring any combination of harissa, pastrami, kimchi, “parm,” and sriracha."
"they wore a uniform of mullets, mustaches, tote bags, five-panel caps, and oversized T-shirts with pictures of anthropomorphic peanuts, pickles, and pizzas on them. "
The Norman is the defining person-type of 2025. They are what the yuppie was to 1985 or metrosexuals were to Blairite Britain: a socio-economic style tribe born not of a desire to be different but a desperation to fit in.
We need @leon to head out to Lower Clapton and report from on the spot.
Comments
I despise Vanilla, they have a different definition of upgrade to the rest of us.
Between January 2008 and October 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 308
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 6,407
On October 7th 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 1,195
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 1,609
Since October 7th 2023:
Israelis killed by armed Palestinians: 851
Palestinians killed by armed Israelis: 73,601
Is Vanilla run by Mikey Gove?
They seem to want to meddle every few weeks and do an upgrade.
Anyway, thanks to you guys for keeping the ship on the sea. God knows what I would do with my time if I wasn't on here!!! Probably have to get a dog and take photos of it on long walks.
Rael Braverman
@raelbrav
·
38m
Patience is a virtue.
The truth will come out.
Jews don't even believe Jesus was Messiah let alone God and certainly don't have Muhammed as a prophet either
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
Popcorn indeed
Thing is, everything else is worse- and with that, we're back to the UK political scene.
(Seriously, Boss Team, thanks for making the best of it.)
On average Jews also contribute a lot as immigrants and are more educated and higher earning on average than the native population whereas not all Muslims of working age are in paid work, some on welfare
Note the horizontal scrolling needed!
There are Christians that believe the Abrahamic God is a demiurge
Which is the same as Vanilla.
Shame you didnt set it up as a proper political party me old Spiv
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam
'Of adults surveyed, 12 per cent reported that they attended a church of any denomination at least once a month last year, compared with eight per cent in 2018. This does not include weddings, baptisms/christenings, and funerals. “In numerical terms, that’s growth from 3.7m in 2018 to 5.8m in 2024 — an increase of 56%,” the report says.
This “dramatic growth” is owed largely to younger generations, it says. In 2018, four per cent of the 18- to 24-year-olds reported that they attended church monthly, compared with 16 per cent in 2024. For men, this increased from four per cent to 21 per cent, and, for women, from three per cent to 12 per cent.
“This is now the second most likely age group to attend church regularly.”
The result is a “curve” rather than a straightforward association between age and attendance, the report says, with the middle-aged (45-54) the least likely to attend (five per cent). The reversing trend is also true of gender, it says: overall attendance by men (13 per cent) outstrips attendance by women (ten per cent).
The shift to younger generations is also increasing diversity in the Church, the report says. While just 19 per cent of all churchgoers belong to an ethnic minority, this figure rises among 18- to 54-year-olds to almost one third (32 per cent).
Growth among the denominations varies, however. In 2018, Anglicans (C of E and Church in Wales) made up 41 per cent of all churchgoers. This decreased to 34 per cent in 2024. Roman Catholic churchgoers have increased from 23 per cent to 31 per cent, while Pentecostals have increased from four per cent to ten per cent.'
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/11-april/news/uk/dramatic-growth-in-young-people-attending-church-bible-society-research-finds
The site is now unusable - for my MacBook Air anyway.
I can't contol the page width (it's too wide), it should resize with the window, not be fixed width, and the typeface may look elegant but is less easy to actually read
I've also lost access to emojis - which I don't usually use but with which I want to show a thumbs down
... boo ... even if @dixiedean is happy with his mobile version
Not that surprising as most Christian immigrants to the UK tend to be Roman Catholic or evangelical Protestant rather than middle of the road Anglican.
The more immigration rises the more the decline in religion in the UK may start to reverse, especially as the religious tend to have more children than atheists and agnostics on average as well
1:0
I don't know how she has the audacity to look so indignant. I've rarely seen such a clear-cut sending off.
President Monroe must be fairly spinning...
It is atheists who need to convert to avoid dying out therefore more than the religious, indeed today may be the peak of global atheism especially in the West
Also, you can't choose your beliefs based on the outcomes you want. Your beliefs are what you believe: you can't really choose that. I could no more decide to believe that there s a god than you could decide to believe that there isn't.
https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3ludjslelyf2x
Secularism tends to be a product of individualism, which is pretty recent in human history. Most of the time, most people have tended to think of themselves first and foremost as members of households, families, clans, communities. These days, we don't (at least in rich world countries).
Individualism is driven by industrialisation, and urbanisation. If those trends were to reverse, you'd likely see societies become more religious.
Just one example: Muslims
Muslim immigrants into the west have become MORE religious in the last few decades - 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim Europeans and Americans are more devout and more conservative than their first generation antecedents (as everyone else knows, in a rather uncomfortable way)
And that's just, as I say, one example
Of course the CofE is still falling off the cliff, because the bulk of it doesn't actually belive in anything, which is a difficult message to sell with conviction. It's decline is also being accelerated because not only are it's only growing churches the fundimentalist evangelicals, those same churches are leaving the CofE in droves over gay marriage, either lock stock and barrel where that's possible, or more commonly by 85% of the congregation and 95% of the staff walking out and founding a new church outside the CofE just down the road.
It has reached Dunkirk. Every single time the story of Dunkirk brings me close to tears. Those little boats....
This is a very *physical* match, a challenge for the ref
For example, at the moment it is too new not to be dependent culturally on generations of culturally religious practices, customs and moral assumptions along with metaphysical assumption about human value.
Ethical monotheism - one of the key influential ideas in history - is fundamentally unrelated to secondary matters like turning up to church and singing ditties and the careful formation of the coffee rota, but goes much deeper. We have no real long term data about what happens once it has gone altogether. It won't be in my lifetime. And it may be never. It may be an ineradicable bit of the human condition by now.
"The first generation of postwar Muslim immigrants to Britain, largely from the Indian subcontinent, was pious and culturally conservative, but wore its faith lightly. Many men drank alcohol. Few women wore the hijab.
"The second generation – my generation – was more secular. Our desire for equality led us to challenge not just racism but the obscurantism of mosques and faith leaders. The more hardline strands of Islam had little sway within British Muslim communities until the end of the 1980s. The irony is that, since then, a generation of Muslims far more integrated and “westernised” than the first came also to be the generation most insistent on maintaining its “difference”. A study by the Institute for the Impact of Faith in Life (IIFL) published last month found that young people were most likely to view themselves as Muslim more than British, while over-65s were twice as likely to identify as British first."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/13/the-identity-politics-of-many-muslims-and-critics-of-islam-are-deeply-corrosive
We do favour liberal democracies like Israel over authoritarian dictatorships like Iran.
According to their data, 41% of the English and Welsh Church attendance in 2018 was in Anglican settings. Based on a total regular attendance of 3.7m people, we can calculate the Anglican attendance at around 1.5m. By 2024, Anglicans had reduced as a proportion to 34% but of a much larger reported attendance of 5.8m people, so we should be seeing an increase in attendance of around 500,000 to around 2m. In other words, the report claims that the Church of England has grown by a third since 2018.
https://www.churchmousepublishing.co.uk/2025/05/confessions-of-quiet-revival-sceptic.html
There may well be big percentage growth in funkier churches, but the CofE is such a large part of British Christendom that the total can't plausibly grow without the CofE growing.
And other, better, measurements just don't show that.
The little boats mostly served as ferries between the shore and the larger ships.
I do think in general we're becoming more illiberal, and there does appear to be a market for explicitly religious politics as applies to Islam at least.
Charles didnt have a destroyer though so his yacht had to do!
Im going to add a second blockbuster film war fact for your evening. The last British survivor of Rorkes Drift , Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne (much younger man than portrayed by Nigel Green, the youngest CS in the army actually) lived to see VE day, dying the day after.
I don't like it for many reasons espoused before, but felt the battle was only ever going one way eventually.
Meet the Normans: The Defining Person-Type of 2025
https://www.vice.com/en/article/meet-the-normans-the-defining-person-type-of-2025/
"To understand a group you must understand what they covet and the Norman appears to be obsessed with the following things: bikes, beer gardens, day festivals, Turnstile, “chilled reds,” Confidence Man, The Bear, weekends in Marseille, Instagram chefs who use death metal typefaces, sharing-plates with orange writing on them, soft-scoop ice cream, Loyle Carner, and steady-state cardio. Outside of the occasional blowout at a Bistrot Freddie or Cafe Cecilia they appear to exist solely on a diet of sandwiches, featuring any combination of harissa, pastrami, kimchi, “parm,” and sriracha."
"they wore a uniform of mullets, mustaches, tote bags, five-panel caps, and oversized T-shirts with pictures of anthropomorphic peanuts, pickles, and pizzas on them. "
The Norman is the defining person-type of 2025. They are what the yuppie was to 1985 or metrosexuals were to Blairite Britain: a socio-economic style tribe born not of a desire to be different but a desperation to fit in.
We need @leon to head out to Lower Clapton and report from on the spot.