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Rhetoric meets reality. What will Reform voters make of this? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,573
edited July 15 in General
Rhetoric meets reality. What will Reform voters make of this? – politicalbetting.com

The leader of a Reform-run county council has written to government to express “grave concern” about planned tightening of visas for health and care workers, despite party’s wider commitment to significantly reducing net migration @peterwalker99 writeshttps://t.co/lEVWVz1ls1

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,577
    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought Durham were going to reduce the number of flags they are flying? Both in terms of flag purchase and storage, and staff costs raising them and lowering them, should make a decent dent in the £31m target?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,654
    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,277
    Notably good opposition response to John Healey's statement on the Afghanistan data leak from James Cartledge:

    https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/62cea3b2-5267-4a91-b8a4-8cc8dd9a79b8?in=12:56:34
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,214
    Looks like @TSE has called this right

    Liverpool bid for Newcastle Isak

    Newcastle say no

    Liverpool now after Ekitike
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,404
    FPT: Washington Post "fact checker" Glenn Kessler describes his findings as "falsehoods", not "lies". I think he is right to do so, since we seldom have direct evidence of what a politician actually believes. (I am a little more willing than he to call a statement a lie -- but then I don't work for a news organization.)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Kessler_(journalist)
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,404
    I have found this rough comparison useful in understanding great crimes of the 20th century:
    Stalin was responsible for about as many deaths as WW I, Mao for about as many as WW II.

    (Among national leaders, Pol Pot may have highest per capita record.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,658

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    They need those potential care workers to have the right to work in the UK.

    Based on stories I’ve heard actually doing some work and not sleeping on the job would also be useful as well
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,214
    MattW said:

    Notably good opposition response to John Healey's statement on the Afghanistan data leak from James Cartledge:

    https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/62cea3b2-5267-4a91-b8a4-8cc8dd9a79b8?in=12:56:34

    I listened to the debate and was impressed with John Healey and the conservative minister's response
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,318
    The party should sack her immediately.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,211
    A lot of scarce 'criminal justice' resource wasted by these two, it would seem.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0zkg4g4zyo
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,646
    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Malawian Workers' Party? No 10 Garden Party?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,641
    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Yeah Reform can't let reality intrude. It destroys their entire political offer.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,233

    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Yeah Reform can't let reality intrude. It destroys their entire political offer.
    Its not reality. Pay a living, free market wage to attract employees.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,277
    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.
    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,233

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,128

    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Yeah Reform can't let reality intrude. It destroys their entire political offer.
    Much easier to do if you stay in opposition. Ask the Liberal Democrats.

    The sweet spot for any insurgent party is substantial gains that don't give you majority control anywhere. The May 2025 campaign was only supposed to blow the bloody doors off Conservative and Labour councils, not destroy them.

    The bigger question is whether the same goes for Reform at Westminster.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,105

    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Yeah Reform can't let reality intrude. It destroys their entire political offer.
    Its not reality. Pay a living, free market wage to attract employees.
    Quite so. The party leadership should slap this council leader down.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,646
    Been reading the Graun accounts myself. It'll be interesting to see what effect that has on people destroying trees elsewhere illegally - especially in court.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,211
    MaxPB said:

    The party should sack her immediately.

    Thing is, she has responsibility for social services in Kent. She can't sacrifice that for the sake of the national party. There'd be little point in local government with no autonomy.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,132

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    You've summed up the basic issue with UK plc. If there are subsidies or wheezes to get round the minimum wage, why waste time doing difficult stuff like fixing things. Applies to politicians too.

    Looks like this EV subsidy will be going straight to China as will the other green subsidies. Why subsidise when you should be making sure the business has a viable future based on sound products that meet customer needs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,128

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Then the bubble just shifts somewhere else in the sticky backed plastic of government. I suspect there is a "pick two from these three" trilemma here, between low taxes, low immigration and adequately staffed public services.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,096

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,645
    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,941

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Then the bubble just shifts somewhere else in the sticky backed plastic of government. I suspect there is a "pick two from these three" trilemma here, between low taxes, low immigration and adequately staffed public services.
    Do you think we didn't have all three of those c.2001?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,058
    edited July 15

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Thing is Bart, Boris had this covered but Sunak and Starmer have dropped the ball over importing absolutely necessary labour. Farage has spooked them, Boris would have just tweaked his nose and kept bringing our friends from abroad in to work the nation to economic growth.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,645
    Carnyx said:

    Been reading the Graun accounts myself. It'll be interesting to see what effect that has on people destroying trees elsewhere illegally - especially in court.
    Motivation for the destruction 'just drunken stupidity'.

    In some ways, I find this something of a relief. It's not a *good* reason, certainly, but the least bad reason I can think of.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,996
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    In Scotland, unionists dislike Scottish culture, particularly Gaelic and Scots language. Also, but to a lesser extent, traditional music. They dislike anything that makes Scots different from English people, and also see it as encouraging nationalist politics.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,645

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.

  • eekeek Posts: 30,681

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Thing is Bart, Boris had this covered but Sunak and Starmer have dropped the ball over importing absolutely necessary labour. Farage has spooked them, Boris would have just tweaked his nose and kept bringing our friends from abroad in to work the nation to economic growth.
    What growth? GDP is rising but GDP per capita really isn’t
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,240
    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    Yep. Though funny as it is, if it helps draw Reform back to some kind of relationship with reality, that's not a bad thing.

    At some point, Labour will lose power and the most likely consequence of that is that a right-of-centre party will take over. Whether that's Reform, a merged Reform-Tory combo, or a resurgent Conservatives free of the pull of Reform if the latter collapses, it's in the country's interests that it's not promising the world and cutting down anything in its path to its hallucinations.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,240
    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.
    Rachel Reeves needs to whack the basic rate of tax up to 25%. It's the only way to balance the books.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.
    Rachel Reeves needs to whack the basic rate of tax up to 25%. It's the only way to balance the books.
    I’ve heard rumours of an extension of VAT by reducing the threshold from £90,000 to something closer to the rest of Europe
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,222
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    "If rain makes Britain great
    Then Manchester is greater
    As you dry your clothes once again
    Upon the radiator
    What makes Britain great
    Makes Manchester yet greater"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWP62EoU4g

    There are certain places in the UK where you are almost supposed to feel 'pride' for being from, as though they are superior. Manchester is one; Liverpool has it on steroids. The East End of London (the sound of Bow Bells rubbish). Yorkshire people take a pride that just does not exist in (say) Derbyshire. Cornwall is always bleaker and harder than cream-tea Devonshire.

    Sometimes it feel a little more like insecurity than pride.

    (Then you get people from Oxford; why they take pride in anything is beyond me. A third-class university, and the documentary series Morse and Lewis shows how it has been a hellhole of murder and deceit for decades.)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,128
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Then the bubble just shifts somewhere else in the sticky backed plastic of government. I suspect there is a "pick two from these three" trilemma here, between low taxes, low immigration and adequately staffed public services.
    Do you think we didn't have all three of those c.2001?
    Early 2000s were pretty much perfect dependency ratio, I think. Children of the baby boom in the prime of their careers, relatively few children or pensioners. That scenario doesn't help us now.

    With hindsight, we could have done with Harold Macmillan;

    Let us be frank about it: most of our people have never had it so good. Go around the country, go to the industrial towns, go to the farms, and you’ll see a state of prosperity such as we have never had in my lifetime- nor indeed ever in the history of this country. What is beginning to worry some of us is 'Is it too good to be true?’ or perhaps I should say 'Is it too good to last?’
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,132

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    In Scotland, unionists dislike Scottish culture, particularly Gaelic and Scots language. Also, but to a lesser extent, traditional music. They dislike anything that makes Scots different from English people, and also see it as encouraging nationalist politics.
    Such a parcel of rogues.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,149
    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.
    Rachel Reeves needs to whack the basic rate of tax up to 25%. It's the only way to balance the books.
    I’ve heard rumours of an extension of VAT by reducing the threshold from £90,000 to something closer to the rest of Europe
    Well the Channel Islands are closer to Europe, and there's no VAT there
    (though there is a Goods and Services Tax @ 5%)

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,508
    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    As reported, it's absolutely outrageous and defies belief. That second point makes me think there must be more to it.* Otherwise we really are in a world gone mad.

    *The school might, for example, after some previous trouble between two groups, banned overt national symbols such as flags. As I noted before, my kids' school bans pro football kits due, I think, to some incidents between people sporting kits of rival teams. They make that very clear each non-uniform day. That said, I hope they'd tackle any violation with more tact and compassion than sending a kid to sit in reception.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,132

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,646
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been reading the Graun accounts myself. It'll be interesting to see what effect that has on people destroying trees elsewhere illegally - especially in court.
    Motivation for the destruction 'just drunken stupidity'.

    In some ways, I find this something of a relief. It's not a *good* reason, certainly, but the least bad reason I can think of.
    Interesting, though, to consider what a developer, for instance, might face on cutting down protected trees/woodland for profit. Or, for that matter, councillors ramming through their pet scheme. An issue would be exactly what formal protection the said plants had, of course.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,883
    Battlebus said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    You've summed up the basic issue with UK plc. If there are subsidies or wheezes to get round the minimum wage, why waste time doing difficult stuff like fixing things. Applies to politicians too.

    Looks like this EV subsidy will be going straight to China as will the other green subsidies. Why subsidise when you should be making sure the business has a viable future based on sound products that meet customer needs.
    The EV subsidy will not be given on Chinese EV cars. The reason given being that they do not use clean energy in the production of the cars.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    You know Trump grabbed the World Cup trophy so Chelsea had to be given the spare replica well it seems he also stole one of the models as he went up to the presentation

    https://bsky.app/profile/the-independent.com/post/3ltza5xtf2k2a

    Has the video evidence
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,213

    Yep. Though funny as it is, if it helps draw Reform back to some kind of relationship with reality, that's not a bad thing.

    At some point, Labour will lose power and the most likely consequence of that is that a right-of-centre party will take over. Whether that's Reform, a merged Reform-Tory combo, or a resurgent Conservatives free of the pull of Reform if the latter collapses, it's in the country's interests that it's not promising the world and cutting down anything in its path to its hallucinations.

    No, we certainly don't need that again .
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    And that’s down to Reform how ?

    That would be the case whoever got in at the last set of locals.

    The problem is down to how local govt is funded and inter party point scoring hardly helps and I’d include reform with their stupid DOGE in that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    kjh said:

    Battlebus said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    You've summed up the basic issue with UK plc. If there are subsidies or wheezes to get round the minimum wage, why waste time doing difficult stuff like fixing things. Applies to politicians too.

    Looks like this EV subsidy will be going straight to China as will the other green subsidies. Why subsidise when you should be making sure the business has a viable future based on sound products that meet customer needs.
    The EV subsidy will not be given on Chinese EV cars. The reason given being that they do not use clean energy in the production of the cars.
    What bollocks. It’s just protectionism. Trump would be proud.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,468
    Part of the problem is the Victorian anti-intellectual inheritance. Pride in Britain is easy to attack as pride in imperialism, because we don't have that conceptual, 18th century prospectus that, say, the French and Americans have.

    But the answer is quite simple; rediscover the huge cultural achievements of 17th and 18th century Britain, while being honest in facing its darker chapters of slavery and appropriation.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    It’s getting really tiresome the number of issues the Tories are criticising Labour over that they caused themselves.

    Labours comms are inept. They don’t refute.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    geoffw said:

    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.
    Rachel Reeves needs to whack the basic rate of tax up to 25%. It's the only way to balance the books.
    I’ve heard rumours of an extension of VAT by reducing the threshold from £90,000 to something closer to the rest of Europe
    Well the Channel Islands are closer to Europe, and there's no VAT there
    (though there is a Goods and Services Tax @ 5%)

    Elsewheee in Europe companies start charging vat as they revenue exceeds €4200 (Scandinavia) to €35000 France.

    Setting the threshold at £30,000 or so would allow a slight reduction and remove a strange barrier that stops firms expanding beyond a £90,000 turnover
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,023

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    In Scotland, unionists dislike Scottish culture, particularly Gaelic and Scots language. Also, but to a lesser extent, traditional music. They dislike anything that makes Scots different from English people, and also see it as encouraging nationalist politics.
    At Census 2022, 94% of Scotland's population spoke English as their main language, compared to England's 91% in 2021.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,240
    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Battlebus said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    You've summed up the basic issue with UK plc. If there are subsidies or wheezes to get round the minimum wage, why waste time doing difficult stuff like fixing things. Applies to politicians too.

    Looks like this EV subsidy will be going straight to China as will the other green subsidies. Why subsidise when you should be making sure the business has a viable future based on sound products that meet customer needs.
    The EV subsidy will not be given on Chinese EV cars. The reason given being that they do not use clean energy in the production of the cars.
    What bollocks. It’s just protectionism. Trump would be proud.
    Ideally there wouldn’t be a subsidy at all but without it not enough electric cars will be sold
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    Tbf they might not have wanted to alert the Taliban mid-extraction.

    Or to embarrass the politicians and officials who think emailing spreadsheets around is a good idea.

    Probably the latter.

    And to be serious for a moment, what is the flipping point of the NCSC if not to prevent these sorts of thing? Or are they part of the blob that stops smartarsed SpAds getting on with running the country? See rants by Elon & Cummings passim.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,254
    @RepSwalwell

    This is it. Today at 1:30pm Congress votes whether to release the Epstein Files or keep them secret. How will Republicans vote?

    https://x.com/RepSwalwell/status/1945123723515740594
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Given that they worked for us before we left Afghanistan and were in danger because we left them in Afghanistan - I’m at a loss as to what the issue is.

    Unless the issue is that it was only after someone screwed up the Government actually thought hmm best make sure the people we promised to look after are actually looked after
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    "If rain makes Britain great
    Then Manchester is greater
    As you dry your clothes once again
    Upon the radiator
    What makes Britain great
    Makes Manchester yet greater"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWP62EoU4g

    There are certain places in the UK where you are almost supposed to feel 'pride' for being from, as though they are superior. Manchester is one; Liverpool has it on steroids. The East End of London (the sound of Bow Bells rubbish). Yorkshire people take a pride that just does not exist in (say) Derbyshire. Cornwall is always bleaker and harder than cream-tea Devonshire.

    Sometimes it feel a little more like insecurity than pride.

    (Then you get people from Oxford; why they take pride in anything is beyond me. A third-class university, and the documentary series Morse and Lewis shows how it has been a hellhole of murder and deceit for decades.)
    Cornwall is now taken seriously at the BBC (one-minute video with Salman Rushdie & Alan Yentob)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drpzN7tN2xE
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,813
    Scott_xP said:

    @RepSwalwell

    This is it. Today at 1:30pm Congress votes whether to release the Epstein Files or keep them secret. How will Republicans vote?

    https://x.com/RepSwalwell/status/1945123723515740594


    Let's take a wild guess shall we?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,233

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Which is an utterly false economy as if you increase supply you need to increase infrastructure. You need new transport, infrastructure, as well as housing etc to cater for the added supply. All of which costs money.

    Are they planning to do that? Or just boost supply and ignore infrastructure.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,105

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    Thing is Bart, Boris had this covered but Sunak and Starmer have dropped the ball over importing absolutely necessary labour. Farage has spooked them, Boris would have just tweaked his nose and kept bringing our friends from abroad in to work the nation to economic growth.
    We've spent a quarter of a century, testing to destruction, the thesis that mass migration spurs economic growth.

    The Boriswave generated negative growth.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,135
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been reading the Graun accounts myself. It'll be interesting to see what effect that has on people destroying trees elsewhere illegally - especially in court.
    Motivation for the destruction 'just drunken stupidity'.

    In some ways, I find this something of a relief. It's not a *good* reason, certainly, but the least bad reason I can think of.
    Interesting, though, to consider what a developer, for instance, might face on cutting down protected trees/woodland for profit. Or, for that matter, councillors ramming through their pet scheme. An issue would be exactly what formal protection the said plants had, of course.

    It used to be that if you cleared a site before applying for planning permission, the permission could not take into account the state of the site before the clearance.

    Many trees got nobbled this way. I would guess in some cases a felling licence should have been required but all this says usually is that a few saplings should be replanted.


    I think this has changed for Net Gain in that you are allowed to look at a site over time although in most cases that will be relying on old aerial images of dubious quality.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,699
    Taz said:

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    It’s getting really tiresome the number of issues the Tories are criticising Labour over that they caused themselves.

    Labours comms are inept. They don’t refute.
    They do try and refute. The problem is the voting public don’t care.

    They blame the Tories for breaking it (see their polling) and they blame Labour for sustaining/not fixing it. And then they go to Reform/Greens/LDs as NOTA.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708
    edited July 15
    Betting news.

    Betfair has a new feature, Match Me, which when enabled allows your bets to be matched at a shade under the price you requested to save having to chase the price down.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,272
    Carnyx said:

    Been reading the Graun accounts myself. It'll be interesting to see what effect that has on people destroying trees elsewhere illegally - especially in court.
    Do I understand correctly that their brief's plea in mitigation was that they were drunk when they drove 30 miles to cut the tree down?
    The seemingly harsh sentences are starting to make sense.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,699
    Torode sacked too now.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,957
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    And that’s down to Reform how ?

    That would be the case whoever got in at the last set of locals.

    The problem is down to how local govt is funded and inter party point scoring hardly helps and I’d include reform with their stupid DOGE in that.
    The issue that is down to Reform will be in what it pledged in the council elections which they won and formed the leadership of the council. Did they promise undeliverable cuts? Did they ignore the limits councils have on raising local taxes? Are they now pretending ignorance of the financial situation etc?

    Reform are on trial at the moment. people will be very interested in whether 'they are just the same as all the others - all blame and excuses and non delivery etc'. The deal locally and nationally is not sealed. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,248
    edited July 15
    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,105
    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    In my opinion, yes, it is terrorism.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,645

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    "If rain makes Britain great
    Then Manchester is greater
    As you dry your clothes once again
    Upon the radiator
    What makes Britain great
    Makes Manchester yet greater"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWP62EoU4g

    There are certain places in the UK where you are almost supposed to feel 'pride' for being from, as though they are superior. Manchester is one; Liverpool has it on steroids. The East End of London (the sound of Bow Bells rubbish). Yorkshire people take a pride that just does not exist in (say) Derbyshire. Cornwall is always bleaker and harder than cream-tea Devonshire.

    Sometimes it feel a little more like insecurity than pride.

    (Then you get people from Oxford; why they take pride in anything is beyond me. A third-class university, and the documentary series Morse and Lewis shows how it has been a hellhole of murder and deceit for decades.)
    Manchester, Liverpool, Yorkshire and Cornwall are all rather fine places - you look around yourself and if that place is yours, pride is quite easy to feel. You are reminded again and again of yoir own identity.
    Devon, beautful though it is, perhaps stirs different, calmer emotions - perhaps one is supposed to feel 'lucky' rather than 'proud' to come from Devon.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    And that’s down to Reform how ?

    That would be the case whoever got in at the last set of locals.

    The problem is down to how local govt is funded and inter party point scoring hardly helps and I’d include reform with their stupid DOGE in that.
    The issue that is down to Reform will be in what it pledged in the council elections which they won and formed the leadership of the council. Did they promise undeliverable cuts? Did they ignore the limits councils have on raising local taxes? Are they now pretending ignorance of the financial situation etc?

    Reform are on trial at the moment. people will be very interested in whether 'they are just the same as all the others - all blame and excuses and non delivery etc'. The deal locally and nationally is not sealed. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
    No, they just promised DOGE and they’d try to improve Durham county.

    I agree they will have a record to defend but, I suspect, like the prior Labour and coalition councils they will just blame central govt grant being inadequate
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,655
    eek said:

    geoffw said:

    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    A reminder that the government shutdown the right of care homes to directly recruit from abroad, because next to no-one they sold* a visa to ended up working in a care home.

    Nearly all the migrants who ended up working in care homes did so via other visa routes.

    As a result of this comedy, we don’t have reliable numbers for shortages of workers. This is because the care home owners created visas for jobs that didn’t exist, in many cases. So the non-existent job went on the tally of vacancies. And since it didn’t exist, was never filled…


    *Selling a visa like this is a crime.
    There's no such thing as a shortage that can't be filled.

    It is unskilled labour. That's not to be disrespectful, I have the greatest respect for those who choose to do it, but the only qualification needed is to pass a DBS Check. You don't even need a GCSE let alone a degree, literally anyone with a clean DBS can do it.

    If the vacancy isn't filled, its because either the terms and conditions are shit, the pay is shit, or the way management treat their employees is shit. Or a combination of the above.

    All the above are readily fixable problems.
    All of the above are readily fixable... with money... money that Kent CC doesn't have, presumably. Thus they wish to increase the supply so the price comes down.
    Some of us believe unlimited unskilled immigration is a bad idea AND believe in higher taxes to pay the higher costs implied for social care of wages needing to rise because we don't have unlimited labour.

    This will have two benefits:
    We don't fill our country up
    Lower paid people get paid more

    Which will have the knock on benefit that state spending on these two things can fall.
    Rachel Reeves needs to whack the basic rate of tax up to 25%. It's the only way to balance the books.
    I’ve heard rumours of an extension of VAT by reducing the threshold from £90,000 to something closer to the rest of Europe
    Well the Channel Islands are closer to Europe, and there's no VAT there
    (though there is a Goods and Services Tax @ 5%)

    Elsewheee in Europe companies start charging vat as they revenue exceeds €4200 (Scandinavia) to €35000 France.

    Setting the threshold at £30,000 or so would allow a slight reduction and remove a strange barrier that stops firms expanding beyond a £90,000 turnover
    But add a barrier at £30000. And another barrier to starting up in the first place.

    As it stands, you can dip your toes in the water of business without much need for anything other than yearly microaccounts. No accountant, no fuss, not much jeopardy. Start adding quarterly VAT returns and the limited-liability-piercing nature of VAT and it's not as easy.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708
    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    There might be a grey area around threatening workers but at first glance it looks a stretch.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes. Fuck them.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,142
    eek said:

    You know Trump grabbed the World Cup trophy so Chelsea had to be given the spare replica well it seems he also stole one of the models as he went up to the presentation

    https://bsky.app/profile/the-independent.com/post/3ltza5xtf2k2a

    Has the video evidence

    Medal, not model! I thought we were going to see him abduct a young woman in the video!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,513
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Not quite true, Reform in Kent wants more immigrant care workers. Reform’s leadership haven’t yet been asked if that’s what they want and I suspect the answer would be no.

    The squaring of what Reform needs for their councils to succeed and what their voters want is going to be an interesting problem.

    In Durham the council have announced they need to find £31m in cuts to cover an expected social care overspend

    I thought boatloads of potential care workers arrive in Kent on every tide. What more do they want?
    They need those potential care workers to have the right to work in the UK.

    Based on stories I’ve heard actually doing some work and not sleeping on the job would also be useful as well
    Good luck with that for sure, be diddly squat of those young economic migrants have any intentions of working in a care home when they can get more on eth dole and have a side hustle/delivery / dodgy job as well
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,513
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes. Fuck them.
    20 years for the clowns, stop it mushrooming.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,633

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708

    eek said:

    You know Trump grabbed the World Cup trophy so Chelsea had to be given the spare replica well it seems he also stole one of the models as he went up to the presentation

    https://bsky.app/profile/the-independent.com/post/3ltza5xtf2k2a

    Has the video evidence

    Medal, not model! I thought we were going to see him abduct a young woman in the video!
    Tbh I thought the replica trophy thing came from a satire account.

    Ah well, that video will rule him out of the new Masterchef jobs.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,272

    eek said:

    You know Trump grabbed the World Cup trophy so Chelsea had to be given the spare replica well it seems he also stole one of the models as he went up to the presentation

    https://bsky.app/profile/the-independent.com/post/3ltza5xtf2k2a

    Has the video evidence

    Medal, not model! I thought we were going to see him abduct a young woman in the video!
    They're blocking the release of those videos
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,614
    nico67 said:

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
    Hairshirts all round

    Although has he really been sacked if he’s simply a contractor whose contract is not being renewed ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708
    nico67 said:

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
    Has anyone in management been sacked over Glastogate?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,813
    nico67 said:

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
    Totally over the top reaction. Just ridiculous. One incident? You get a written warning maybe and a half hour bollocking from head of HR.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,513
    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Given that they worked for us before we left Afghanistan and were in danger because we left them in Afghanistan - I’m at a loss as to what the issue is.

    Unless the issue is that it was only after someone screwed up the Government actually thought hmm best make sure the people we promised to look after are actually looked after
    They were well paid for it, just another looney excuse to bring in thousands of economic migrants and shower them with largesse. What a banana republic teh UK has become. Flooding here from all over the world for freebies whilst we get more and more impoverished.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,645
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Given that they worked for us before we left Afghanistan and were in danger because we left them in Afghanistan - I’m at a loss as to what the issue is.

    Unless the issue is that it was only after someone screwed up the Government actually thought hmm best make sure the people we promised to look after are actually looked after
    They were well paid for it, just another looney excuse to bring in thousands of economic migrants and shower them with largesse. What a banana republic teh UK has become. Flooding here from all over the world for freebies whilst we get more and more impoverished.
    A pedant notes: that's not really an obvious characteristic of a banana republic.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,222
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    It's not even the "patriotic" lobby.
    I love my country. But I recognise that that's a function of me growing up in this country and being rooted in it, and human psychology valuing what we have more than what we don't. And I also recognise it's not perfect. I am, however, sick of the mindset - which seems particularly common in education and in the public sector - that the UK, and England in particular, is uniquely terrible: that Nigerians and Indians and Pakistanis and Europeans should be proud of their culture but the British should not, and that the British alone should have to apologise for their past. That's the mindset that resulted in this decision, and its the mindset you see again and again in the public sector, and in education in particular.
    I'm sure no other country does this.
    (Oddly, my kids are encouraged to be proud to be Mancunian. That seems to be ok. But to feel distinctly ambivalent about being British. It's odd to contrast the two. It's also odd to contrast our mayor's 'everything about Manchester is great' rhetoric with his distinct reluctance to express equivalent sentiments about the UK.)
    "If rain makes Britain great
    Then Manchester is greater
    As you dry your clothes once again
    Upon the radiator
    What makes Britain great
    Makes Manchester yet greater"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWP62EoU4g

    There are certain places in the UK where you are almost supposed to feel 'pride' for being from, as though they are superior. Manchester is one; Liverpool has it on steroids. The East End of London (the sound of Bow Bells rubbish). Yorkshire people take a pride that just does not exist in (say) Derbyshire. Cornwall is always bleaker and harder than cream-tea Devonshire.

    Sometimes it feel a little more like insecurity than pride.

    (Then you get people from Oxford; why they take pride in anything is beyond me. A third-class university, and the documentary series Morse and Lewis shows how it has been a hellhole of murder and deceit for decades.)
    Manchester, Liverpool, Yorkshire and Cornwall are all rather fine places - you look around yourself and if that place is yours, pride is quite easy to feel. You are reminded again and again of yoir own identity.
    Devon, beautful though it is, perhaps stirs different, calmer emotions - perhaps one is supposed to feel 'lucky' rather than 'proud' to come from Devon.
    Yes, but Yorkshire is a large place, and there's also a heck of a lot of not-so-nice / touristy areas.

    Compare it with Derbyshire further south: also some very spectacular scenery, a stunning history (birthplace of the industrial revolution), and some ultra high-tech employers. Yet when I was growing up, there was little of the 'pride' that Yorkshire seems to be famous for. Many people I met when I went to uni in London could not even say where Derbyshire was.

    It's all a bit weird.

    (Note, I have nothing against any of the places I mention.)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,513
    Selebian said:

    MattW said:

    Picking up this "No, you can't wear that Union Jack dress to a school diversity" story from earlier.

    Selebian said:

    Cookie said:
    It's an academy, apparently, so hardly 'the state', on any level. If it is as presented, then it's a celebration of academies' freedom to be complete Collymores.

    One of those stories where I can't help feeling there's more to it, which may one day come out. Although I note the school has apparently apologised, from the story.

    Schools have all kinds of interesting non-uniform day rules. My kids' school bans (pro team) football kits - wearing your local youth team kit is fine, as are kits from other sports. But they do make that clear.
    , it is at least good to see that the school have thoroughly apologised, having humiliated one of their students by yanking her out of class and making her sit in reception, isolated.

    Whether they have gone far enough to make the apology publicly, in front of the school assembly and everyone before whom they humiliated her, and to explain how they have corrected whatever the issue was with their values, principles and practices, remains to be seen.

    If they want the value of their declared inclusive culture, they need to do that and demonstrate that they have learnt from it, otherwise it is an easy gift for the "patriotic" lobby.
    As reported, it's absolutely outrageous and defies belief. That second point makes me think there must be more to it.* Otherwise we really are in a world gone mad.

    *The school might, for example, after some previous trouble between two groups, banned overt national symbols such as flags. As I noted before, my kids' school bans pro football kits due, I think, to some incidents between people sporting kits of rival teams. They make that very clear each non-uniform day. That said, I hope they'd tackle any violation with more tact and compassion than sending a kid to sit in reception.
    Wishy washy liberal twats, their idea of inclusive is warped. Like all public services they are staffed by useless halfwits. If she had had a palestine flag frock she would have been lauded.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    edited July 15
    Deleted
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,686

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Is this the scheme set up by the Labour government in March 2024 that is in the news today?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,681
    Pro_Rata said:

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Is this the scheme set up by the Labour government in March 2024 that is in the news today?
    In what parallel universe was Labour in power in March 2024?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,846
    90th!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,722

    nico67 said:

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
    Totally over the top reaction. Just ridiculous. One incident? You get a written warning maybe and a half hour bollocking from head of HR.
    This is getting ridiculous now.

    Masterchef is going to go the way of Top of the Pops, all cut up repackaged on BBC4 or youtube if you are lucky.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,248
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes. Fuck them.
    ... with a criminal damage/trespass/public order convictions. There are already military byelaws/SOCAP provisions that could be extended to contractors.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,233
    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes, its terrorism.

    Politically motivated damage against people or property is the frigging definition of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't entail damage.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,686
    eek said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Battlebus said:

    https://x.com/SAshworthHayes/status/1945138395539280316

    "We've lied to you about how many people we were bringing to Britain and how much we were spending, then gagged anyone who found out about it."

    I feel like this sort of official state disinformation might be more damaging to public trust in politics than social media posts.

    I see Kemi's spokesperson (never heard of them) say it's Labour's fault.

    Shadow home secretary Chris Philp said the "staggering figures" were "clear proof that the Labour government has lost control of our welfare system".

    "Under Kemi Badenoch, we've set out a clear, common-sense position. This is about fairness, responsibility and protecting support for those who've contributed to this country," he said.


    The majority of the foreign nationals are EU who were here before Brexit. As part of Brexit, EU laws were simply rolled over (T. May) with the idea that they would be amended or withdrawn. A certain Mr Johnson did nothing but added to the issue.

    The level of denial by the Conservatives is off the scale.
    That's a different story. Sam Ashworth-Hayes is talking about secretly bringing in thousands of Afghans.
    Is this the scheme set up by the Labour government in March 2024 that is in the news today?
    In what parallel universe was Labour in power in March 2024?
    Sorry, I only read PB.

    Is that not the case?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,211
    edited July 15

    Part of the problem is the Victorian anti-intellectual inheritance. Pride in Britain is easy to attack as pride in imperialism, because we don't have that conceptual, 18th century prospectus that, say, the French and Americans have.

    But the answer is quite simple; rediscover the huge cultural achievements of 17th and 18th century Britain, while being honest in facing its darker chapters of slavery and appropriation.

    Three points have occurred to me.

    I wonder if some of it is because 'British culture' is kind of the wallpaper (in Britain) and therefore not a natural subject of interest. As opposed to, say, expat Brits living in other countries, where it more likely would be (to them).

    Or consider somebody hosting a social occasion. You wouldn't expect them as they circulate to be continually bigging up their own house. "Yes yes, all very fascinating, but have you seen the size of my bathroom?" It would be unsettling if they carried on like that.

    Also if being British involves a degree of reticence and stiff upper lip - I'm a sceptic on all this stuff but let's go with it for these purposes - then you could argue it's an integral part of British culture to not celebrate British culture.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,446
    edited July 15
    I wouldn't have jailed them. What's the point?

    I would have given them 3,000 hours of community service each.

    Planting trees.

    And then at the end of every day, let kids trample their work.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,248

    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes, its terrorism.

    Politically motivated damage against people or property is the frigging definition of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't entail damage.
    Depends which dictionary you have.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,240

    Eabhal said:

    Oh wow, the women who drove a van into the fence at Leonardo - a defence company accused of abetting Israel - have been charged with terrorism.

    Again, do we really think this is terrorism? I know it fits the legal definition but... it's politically motivated criminal damage. It's not terrorising us into supporting Hamas or something.

    Yes, its terrorism.

    Politically motivated damage against people or property is the frigging definition of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't entail damage.
    That’s not the definition of terrorism.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,708

    nico67 said:

    Torode sacked too now.

    Seems a ridiculous over reaction . He apologised and that should have ended the matter .
    Totally over the top reaction. Just ridiculous. One incident? You get a written warning maybe and a half hour bollocking from head of HR.
    This is getting ridiculous now.

    Masterchef is going to go the way of Top of the Pops, all cut up repackaged on BBC4 or youtube if you are lucky.
    More likely the way of Top Gear where some clueless executive drafts in a new hosting team with big salaries and no chemistry.
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