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Don’t believe the hype – politicalbetting.com

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,802

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    'I did not have sex with that woman.' Both the Clinton and Boris variants?
    "There will be no whitewash at the Whitehouse."
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,707

    Just as an aside, I sometimes watched ye olde Masterchef with Lloyd Grossman[sp]. Watched a few minutes of the 'new' version and instantly disliked both the format (can't have something relaxed can we?) and Wallace irritating as hell.

    The old Masterchef could be quite brutal as I recall - seeing some hapless amateur cook being absolutely crushed as Grossman proclaimed his boredom with mousses.
    There was a classic where the lights come up and the poor contestant hadn't produced the food In time so it was a empty podium
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,092

    There was a Trump/Putin phone call on July 3rd in which Putin told Trump he aimed to complete the conquest of the four oblasts (Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia and Kherson) over the next 60 days.

    Yesterday, on July 14th, Trump gave Putin a 50-day deadline to reach a deal. A deadline that expires one day after Putin's 60 day summer offensive period.

    Trump just lets Putin walk over him. When was there a weaker US President?

    Fifty days for Putin to throw away another 75,000 of his soldiers' lives to conquer an area half the size of the Isle of Wight.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,666
    Sean_F said:

    There was a Trump/Putin phone call on July 3rd in which Putin told Trump he aimed to complete the conquest of the four oblasts (Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia and Kherson) over the next 60 days.

    Yesterday, on July 14th, Trump gave Putin a 50-day deadline to reach a deal. A deadline that expires one day after Putin's 60 day summer offensive period.

    Trump just lets Putin walk over him. When was there a weaker US President?

    Fifty days for Putin to throw away another 75,000 of his soldiers' lives to conquer an area half the size of the Isle of Wight.
    Putin is from the, "one more heave," school of problem-solving.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,707
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Labour's floating definition of working people and variable interpretation of what constitutes taxing them
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Darren Jones' 'mostly women and babies'
    Ouch. That's a good one! Yes
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,707

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Labour's floating definition of working people and variable interpretation of what constitutes taxing them
    'NOTHING HAS CHANGED!'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,092

    Sean_F said:

    There was a Trump/Putin phone call on July 3rd in which Putin told Trump he aimed to complete the conquest of the four oblasts (Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia and Kherson) over the next 60 days.

    Yesterday, on July 14th, Trump gave Putin a 50-day deadline to reach a deal. A deadline that expires one day after Putin's 60 day summer offensive period.

    Trump just lets Putin walk over him. When was there a weaker US President?

    Fifty days for Putin to throw away another 75,000 of his soldiers' lives to conquer an area half the size of the Isle of Wight.
    Putin is from the, "one more heave," school of problem-solving.
    Very much like Marshal Cadorna or General Melchett.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 12,172

    Selebian said:

    boulay said:

    Why is the whole masterchef, Greg, John Torode story such huge news? As I don’t watch Masterchef am I missing a huge cultural moment like the first Impressionists exhibition?

    From what I’ve heard on the radio of the Torode story calls for his resignation would be an injustice.

    It appears that 7-8 years ago he made a perceived racist remark. The accuser says it was not malicious and he apologised immediately when challenged. Torode says he has no recollection of the incident.

    Assuming the accusation is correct it seems like offence was caused, apologies were made and accepted and everyone moved on with their lives. What is the purpose of digging it up 8 years later?
    How can people feel better about themselves without burning a witch every day?
    I believe the PC term is "conflagrating a female-identifying occult practitioner"
    You have been cancelled for the disgusting term “occult practitioner”

    The correct term is “Wiccan faith practitioner”

    Please report to Martyrs Memorial, Oxford, for public involuntary cremation.
    Wicca is just one branch of neo paganism and has only existed since around 1956 being spun out of whole cloth by a civil servant called Gerald Gardiner. Real paganism is much older, predating christianity in most countries
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,203
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s ludicrous to be firing someone over one alleged racist joke who then apologised . That should be the end of the matter .

    OTOH I can't believe the BBC got Wallace involved with the latest Masterchef series, I know they'll have to pay him salary till the allegations are proven (or not) one way or the other but surely sticking him on paid leave and getting say Galetti in his place to do the regular series would have been a prudent move.
    The chemistry of the show needs an Everyman character like Wallace. NOT a pro chef but someone good on camera and can be funny and puts people at ease (this is not a comment on whatever he did or didn’t do off camera)

    I’ve heard from people who work on the show that he is not just good at this but crucially good. The two chefs are lofty and superior, Wallace is a pivot between them and the contestants and the audience, Wallace enjoys food but as an amateur

    What you’re saying is like @Roger saying “oh just find a funny guy, he will replace Jeremy Clarkson, that’s Top Gear sorted”

    Gregg Wallace is not a truly big talent like Clarkson but he’s definitely a talent

    The BBC need someone like him but not him
    Does Jeremy Clarkson like food?
    The BBC can’t afford Clarkson any more. They blew it. Probably their biggest talent ever

    The viewing stats for Clarkson’s Farm are insane. I did a little deep dive yesterday on its viewership

    It’s massive in America. Also massive in Australia, NZ, Canada

    But that’s just the anglophonie. Anywhere else?

    Yes. Huge in Germany, Holland, Finland. Number 1 streamed show in Singapore. Singapore! Growing a major fan base in China

    https://awardsradar.com/2025/03/10/why-has-clarksons-farm-became-so-popular-worldwide/

    It’s the second most streamed Amazon prime show globally. And it’s about farming in chipping Norton

    Clarkson is a genius surrounded by a genius team. And the bbc just chucked him under the bus. Twats
    Yes, Clarkson, and Noel Edmonds too. He's also a genius. Just look at what he's doing with that thing in New Zealand. Years off the telly, bounces back at the age of 76 with a hit show set in New Zealand. It's as if he's never been away. These guys get sneered at but it's a rare skill they have.
    I've dabbled in TV at the edge. Presented a couple of things, been on some live shows (ugh!). It is incredibly hard, you have to appear super natural, smooth, relaxed, genial - while also being funny or at least likeable and articulate - while inside every molecule is screaming FECK FECK FECK I'M ON TV

    A rare talent indeed, Sadly this talent is sometimes given to monstrous characters like Savile, and because they are so rare they can get away with horrors

    I don't believe Wallace is anywhere near this category. I feel rather sorry for him, none of his crimes seems especially outrageous, but I guess the pattern of behaviour makes it impossible for the Beeb, and fair enough
    Well he had a good run. I'd say he remains up on the deal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    "There are no American tanks in Baghdad"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Bottomley
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    British only, Anglophone, or worldwide?
    All those, but in descending order
  • eekeek Posts: 30,677
    edited 10:25AM
    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Starmer is tying his fortunes to stopping asylum seekers.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1945017442180219256

    British people have every right to ask why their money is spent on asylum hotels instead of public services.

    That's why I agreed a groundbreaking pilot with France.

    For the first time, people who try to make the crossing illegally will find themselves back where they started.

    If all the boats were taken back as soon as they arrive, or mid-channel it would be a game changer. But it's going to be 50 a week at most, doubtless held up by endless legal challenges (Which Starmer won't pass the necessary primary legislation to nix); so I doubt ol' Nige of Clacton is going to be particularly worried that it'll actually work.
    We were discussing les bateaux after 5-a-side the other night. There are some scholars of refinement in that team - Little Stevie has a 100+ streak going in Wordle - but only I could come up with a solution that would work.

    The British government should get Ukrainian on their arses and outsource enforcement on the French side to the gullible and desperate. Make an account on Telegram that offers 10k EUR in BTC to anybody who fucks up a fugee boat as it leaves l'hexagone. Get some MI6 nerds to run it through a shell company in Panama or wherever. Effective. Cheap. Deniable.
    The obvious reward isn’t so much the money but a quiet nod when your asylum application appears a few months later

    We can then watch as half the boat desperately tries to be the person who stops the boat leaving
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    On one level John Stonehouse set the bar quite high.

    "I'm dead... here are my clothes that say I walked into the ocean."

    Then from Australia: "Alright, that was a lie."

    The 2024 election campaign, when everybody adamantly denied the inevitable: the tax we take from you will have to rise.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,501
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s ludicrous to be firing someone over one alleged racist joke who then apologised . That should be the end of the matter .

    OTOH I can't believe the BBC got Wallace involved with the latest Masterchef series, I know they'll have to pay him salary till the allegations are proven (or not) one way or the other but surely sticking him on paid leave and getting say Galetti in his place to do the regular series would have been a prudent move.
    The chemistry of the show needs an Everyman character like Wallace. NOT a pro chef but someone good on camera and can be funny and puts people at ease (this is not a comment on whatever he did or didn’t do off camera)

    I’ve heard from people who work on the show that he is not just good at this but crucially good. The two chefs are lofty and superior, Wallace is a pivot between them and the contestants and the audience, Wallace enjoys food but as an amateur

    What you’re saying is like @Roger saying “oh just find a funny guy, he will replace Jeremy Clarkson, that’s Top Gear sorted”

    Gregg Wallace is not a truly big talent like Clarkson but he’s definitely a talent

    The BBC need someone like him but not him

    Paddy McGuiness springs to mind. Or a real foodie Ed Gamble.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Chapeau to you. You've got fucking dorks on here doing your job for you for free.
    I think of us more as a team on the field, striving for the common good

    You're the methed up heckler in the bleachers, inexplicably flinging tapir poo at a hallucination of your ex wife
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649
    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Starmer is tying his fortunes to stopping asylum seekers.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1945017442180219256

    British people have every right to ask why their money is spent on asylum hotels instead of public services.

    That's why I agreed a groundbreaking pilot with France.

    For the first time, people who try to make the crossing illegally will find themselves back where they started.

    If all the boats were taken back as soon as they arrive, or mid-channel it would be a game changer. But it's going to be 50 a week at most, doubtless held up by endless legal challenges (Which Starmer won't pass the necessary primary legislation to nix); so I doubt ol' Nige of Clacton is going to be particularly worried that it'll actually work.
    We were discussing les bateaux after 5-a-side the other night. There are some scholars of refinement in that team - Little Stevie has a 100+ streak going in Wordle - but only I could come up with a solution that would work.

    The British government should get Ukrainian on their arses and outsource enforcement on the French side to the gullible and desperate. Make an account on Telegram that offers 10k EUR in BTC to anybody who fucks up a fugee boat as it leaves l'hexagone. Get some MI6 nerds to run it through a shell company in Panama or wherever. Effective. Cheap. Deniable.
    Think deeper.

    MI6 sets up The Bigger, Better And More Violent smuggling gang.

    The customer go straight to the Libyan Coastguard facilities. Incommunicado. Meanwhile fake emails, post cards etc laud the wonderful service provided by Our Chaps.

    Run right, it would turn a profit.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,645

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction that can be used against British forces in less then 45 minutes.
    The end of boom and bust.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,645
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Chapeau to you. You've got fucking dorks on here doing your job for you for free.
    Notable for Leon that we are, apparently, better than AI at this.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    There's Oborne's book.

    There's Rory the Tory's quote on Boris which iirc comes from a TLS review of the Bower book:-

    Johnson is after all the most accomplished liar in public life. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and the half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie, and the bullshit lie – which may inadvertently be true.

    There's the Bob Monkhouse joke that ends: You're a politician, tell me a lie.

    In 1979 Mrs Thatcher denied plans to double VAT (and technically 8 to 15 per cent is not quite double):-
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/how-tories-kept-secret-of-15-vat-hike-1566429.html

    (Of course, Mrs T's act of true political genius was to convince everyone for all time that the Conservatives are a tax-cutting party by concentrating on income tax only.)

    There's the gulf between everything Starmer said to replace JC and what happened since.

    Anyway, need to get to the Post Office before the school rush.


  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction that can be used against British forces in less then 45 minutes.
    George Bush has admitted the WMD claim was wrong. Has Blair?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,297

    kinabalu said:

    I see banner headlines today announcing that Donald Trump is 'disappointed' with Vladimir Putin. Very poignant. I'm disappointed in both of them quite frankly.

    "I am disappointed in Vladimir Putin so I am giving him 50 days to take as much of Ukraine as he can before making a peace deal based around all those advances Russia has made into Ukraine in those 50 days. Good luck Vlad."
    As if anything is going to happen after 50 days, how many deadlines have been set that have come and gone.

    The same nearly happened with Iran, but Israel called his bluff and when the deadline elapsed they stepped in - had they not done so, it would have been on the never never like it is with Russia.
    What are you suggesting? Putin attacks Ukraine with fire and fury so Trump has to join the pro Putin coalition with more fire and fury. Granted, that should get the war finished quickly
    I'm suggesting TACO will stand back and do bugger all

    50 days will come and go and nothing will happen. Putin is too weak to force a victory in Ukraine, Trump is too chicken to stand up to Putin, so the war will still be going.
    Also note that Trump reverts to his first choice of 'very tough tariffs', which ignores (intentionally or not):

    1. That the US does very little trade with Russia so tariffs make sod all difference;
    2. That Putin won't care about the few sectors that are affected.
    3. That it'll have no impact on Russia's war-making capacity.

    If Trump was serious about being very disappointed, he'd be ramping up arms and finance supply to Ukraine, and genuine sanctions on Russia.

    What Trump is really disappointed with Putin for is that he's not with Trump's project to win a Nobel Peace Prize.
    He's proposing "secondary" tariffs - i.e. they will hit third countries trading with Russia. He's also done a deal to deliver US weapons from NATO stocks to Ukraine.
    *sell* US weapons isn’t it?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s ludicrous to be firing someone over one alleged racist joke who then apologised . That should be the end of the matter .

    OTOH I can't believe the BBC got Wallace involved with the latest Masterchef series, I know they'll have to pay him salary till the allegations are proven (or not) one way or the other but surely sticking him on paid leave and getting say Galetti in his place to do the regular series would have been a prudent move.
    The chemistry of the show needs an Everyman character like Wallace. NOT a pro chef but someone good on camera and can be funny and puts people at ease (this is not a comment on whatever he did or didn’t do off camera)

    I’ve heard from people who work on the show that he is not just good at this but crucially good. The two chefs are lofty and superior, Wallace is a pivot between them and the contestants and the audience, Wallace enjoys food but as an amateur

    What you’re saying is like @Roger saying “oh just find a funny guy, he will replace Jeremy Clarkson, that’s Top Gear sorted”

    Gregg Wallace is not a truly big talent like Clarkson but he’s definitely a talent

    The BBC need someone like him but not him

    You should audition - what are you like on camera ?
    You can certainly ponce on about food with the best of them.
    I have it in my head that @Leon is not enough like Puck - he's not short enough and has too much hair.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826
    carnforth said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Chapeau to you. You've got fucking dorks on here doing your job for you for free.
    Notable for Leon that we are, apparently, better than AI at this.
    Or, I am comparing the two
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,457
    Thatcher's St Francis of Assisi harmony speech.

    The claim that Socrates was corrupting the youth of Athens.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,203

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction that can be used against British forces in less then 45 minutes.
    Good one because it was a pure and simple lie and it had big consequences.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,666
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    British only, Anglophone, or worldwide?
    All those, but in descending order
    "We're all in it together," turns out to have been a big lie. Pensioners and asset owners were protected by the Coalition, and everyone else was squeezed. It's the biggest political lie I can think of that hasn't been widely recognised as a lie.

    There should be plenty of corkers from Irish politics, but the most memorable phrase, "a bizarre happening, an unprecedented situation, a grotesque situation, an almost unbelievable mischance," was a pretty straight description of events.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUBU
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,297
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    https://x.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?s=46&t=fJymV-V84rexmlQMLXHHJQ
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    There's Oborne's book.

    There's Rory the Tory's quote on Boris which iirc comes from a TLS review of the Bower book:-

    Johnson is after all the most accomplished liar in public life. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and the half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie, and the bullshit lie – which may inadvertently be true.

    There's the Bob Monkhouse joke that ends: You're a politician, tell me a lie.

    In 1979 Mrs Thatcher denied plans to double VAT (and technically 8 to 15 per cent is not quite double):-
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/how-tories-kept-secret-of-15-vat-hike-1566429.html

    (Of course, Mrs T's act of true political genius was to convince everyone for all time that the Conservatives are a tax-cutting party by concentrating on income tax only.)

    There's the gulf between everything Starmer said to replace JC and what happened since.

    Anyway, need to get to the Post Office before the school rush.


    It was such an act of political genius that, to this day, Income Tax is sacrosanct, and rates cannot be increased, however necessary and beneficial it would be.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Chapeau to you. You've got fucking dorks on here doing your job for you for free.
    More fool you for not roping in the genial folk on here. I mean, how hard can it be to nick a tuk-tuk?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,127
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    There's the one that British voters tell nearly all the time:

    "we don't want taxes cut- if anything, they are too low"

    (see this graph here, doubt I trust the people who produced the webpage, but BSA is platinum-standard polling;

    https://options2040.co.uk/public-opinion-and-taxation-the-surprising-reality/)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    Welsh secretary Ron Davies - "Looking for badgers".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,227
    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    edited 10:46AM
    Further to Worcestershire, I had not noticed that Councillor Alan Amos had joined Reform and is now in the Cabinet.

    He has a pentangular coat, having gone Labour -> Indy -> Conservative -> Indy -> Reform. Agent Anderson, eat your heart out.

    That will be interesting. He's a world class finger-pointer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,205
    edited 10:47AM
    The two nationalist parties are the only ones where it isn't really possible construe some sort of a lie from the name, as generalities, before you get on to any specifics. Even the loony party isn't really insane.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction that can be used against British forces in less then 45 minutes.
    Good one because it was a pure and simple lie and it had big consequences.
    A lie that, together with its follow up of trotting along behind Dubya, killed Blair as a political titan and has left him reviled.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    edited 10:56AM
    MattW said:

    Further to Worcestershire, I had not noticed that Councillor Alan Amos had joined Reform and is now in the Cabinet.

    He has a pentangular coat, having gone Labour -> Indy -> Conservative -> Indy -> Reform. Agent Anderson, eat your heart out.

    That will be interesting. He's a world class finger-pointer.

    Missed one !!

    It's a hexagonal coat. He did Conservative before Labour at the start.

    So Conservative -> Labour -> Indy -> Conservative -> Indy -> Reform.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Amos
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357

    kinabalu said:

    I see banner headlines today announcing that Donald Trump is 'disappointed' with Vladimir Putin. Very poignant. I'm disappointed in both of them quite frankly.

    "I am disappointed in Vladimir Putin so I am giving him 50 days to take as much of Ukraine as he can before making a peace deal based around all those advances Russia has made into Ukraine in those 50 days. Good luck Vlad."
    As if anything is going to happen after 50 days, how many deadlines have been set that have come and gone.

    The same nearly happened with Iran, but Israel called his bluff and when the deadline elapsed they stepped in - had they not done so, it would have been on the never never like it is with Russia.
    What are you suggesting? Putin attacks Ukraine with fire and fury so Trump has to join the pro Putin coalition with more fire and fury. Granted, that should get the war finished quickly
    I'm suggesting TACO will stand back and do bugger all

    50 days will come and go and nothing will happen. Putin is too weak to force a victory in Ukraine, Trump is too chicken to stand up to Putin, so the war will still be going.
    Also note that Trump reverts to his first choice of 'very tough tariffs', which ignores (intentionally or not):

    1. That the US does very little trade with Russia so tariffs make sod all difference;
    2. That Putin won't care about the few sectors that are affected.
    3. That it'll have no impact on Russia's war-making capacity.

    If Trump was serious about being very disappointed, he'd be ramping up arms and finance supply to Ukraine, and genuine sanctions on Russia.

    What Trump is really disappointed with Putin for is that he's not with Trump's project to win a Nobel Peace Prize.
    The spin is that he's proposing secondary tariffs - i.e. large US tariffs on the countries still buying Russian oil and gas experts (like China, India, and some European countries), which might cut off the income Russia receives which is financing their war effort. But I don't expect it to happen.
    I don't think that's workable as a policy and even if it was, I don't see Trump implementing it when he's gone so far to assist Putin.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,677

    kinabalu said:

    I see banner headlines today announcing that Donald Trump is 'disappointed' with Vladimir Putin. Very poignant. I'm disappointed in both of them quite frankly.

    "I am disappointed in Vladimir Putin so I am giving him 50 days to take as much of Ukraine as he can before making a peace deal based around all those advances Russia has made into Ukraine in those 50 days. Good luck Vlad."
    As if anything is going to happen after 50 days, how many deadlines have been set that have come and gone.

    The same nearly happened with Iran, but Israel called his bluff and when the deadline elapsed they stepped in - had they not done so, it would have been on the never never like it is with Russia.
    What are you suggesting? Putin attacks Ukraine with fire and fury so Trump has to join the pro Putin coalition with more fire and fury. Granted, that should get the war finished quickly
    I'm suggesting TACO will stand back and do bugger all

    50 days will come and go and nothing will happen. Putin is too weak to force a victory in Ukraine, Trump is too chicken to stand up to Putin, so the war will still be going.
    Also note that Trump reverts to his first choice of 'very tough tariffs', which ignores (intentionally or not):

    1. That the US does very little trade with Russia so tariffs make sod all difference;
    2. That Putin won't care about the few sectors that are affected.
    3. That it'll have no impact on Russia's war-making capacity.

    If Trump was serious about being very disappointed, he'd be ramping up arms and finance supply to Ukraine, and genuine sanctions on Russia.

    What Trump is really disappointed with Putin for is that he's not with Trump's project to win a Nobel Peace Prize.
    The spin is that he's proposing secondary tariffs - i.e. large US tariffs on the countries still buying Russian oil and gas experts (like China, India, and some European countries), which might cut off the income Russia receives which is financing their war effort. But I don't expect it to happen.
    I don't think that's workable as a policy and even if it was, I don't see Trump implementing it when he's gone so far to assist Putin.
    Trump loves tariffs so any excuse to increase tariffs on the countries he doesn’t like is perfect for him
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,785
    Boris Johnson:

    From this evening, people can only leave home for one of the four following reasons:
    ...

    Travelling to and from work, if it's absolutely necessary and you cannot work from home
  • eekeek Posts: 30,677
    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,744
    edited 11:05AM
    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is the accepted term.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,677

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is accepted term.
    Well the article is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5kpkypxp6o and it seems a desperate measure if reports that only 22% of sales this year have been electric is true
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    .
    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    I see banner headlines today announcing that Donald Trump is 'disappointed' with Vladimir Putin. Very poignant. I'm disappointed in both of them quite frankly.

    "I am disappointed in Vladimir Putin so I am giving him 50 days to take as much of Ukraine as he can before making a peace deal based around all those advances Russia has made into Ukraine in those 50 days. Good luck Vlad."
    As if anything is going to happen after 50 days, how many deadlines have been set that have come and gone.

    The same nearly happened with Iran, but Israel called his bluff and when the deadline elapsed they stepped in - had they not done so, it would have been on the never never like it is with Russia.
    What are you suggesting? Putin attacks Ukraine with fire and fury so Trump has to join the pro Putin coalition with more fire and fury. Granted, that should get the war finished quickly
    I'm suggesting TACO will stand back and do bugger all

    50 days will come and go and nothing will happen. Putin is too weak to force a victory in Ukraine, Trump is too chicken to stand up to Putin, so the war will still be going.
    Also note that Trump reverts to his first choice of 'very tough tariffs', which ignores (intentionally or not):

    1. That the US does very little trade with Russia so tariffs make sod all difference;
    2. That Putin won't care about the few sectors that are affected.
    3. That it'll have no impact on Russia's war-making capacity.

    If Trump was serious about being very disappointed, he'd be ramping up arms and finance supply to Ukraine, and genuine sanctions on Russia.

    What Trump is really disappointed with Putin for is that he's not with Trump's project to win a Nobel Peace Prize.
    The spin is that he's proposing secondary tariffs - i.e. large US tariffs on the countries still buying Russian oil and gas experts (like China, India, and some European countries), which might cut off the income Russia receives which is financing their war effort. But I don't expect it to happen.
    I don't think that's workable as a policy and even if it was, I don't see Trump implementing it when he's gone so far to assist Putin.
    Trump loves tariffs so any excuse to increase tariffs on the countries he doesn’t like is perfect for him
    He backed down with China* - which is Russia's largest trade partner - and would do the same again.

    *note the tech sanctions have also been lifted, as China cut off rare earth supplies.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is the accepted term.
    It feels panicky.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,826
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    What a load of shite. We Brexited partly because europhiles and Remainers told the British voters lie after lie after lie, for fifty years, about the EEC/EU. "It's just a tidying up exercise." "We promise you a referendum". "The Lisbon Treaty is not the Constitution". On and on

    And in the end all those lies exploded in their faces, with Brexit

    Good
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,243
    edited 11:19AM
    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    You can use the £3750 for a bicycle or a bus pass instead, right?!

    This is the trouble with EV policy - it needs to be equitable, and it needs to push the door open for people who don't have drives. I'd much rather they spent it on buying e-buses, on on-street chargers, or a similar grant for e-bikes (or even scooters).

    For richer people EVs already make financial sense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    A good example would be the Thames Water director telling the Commons committee that their refinancing investors insisted on their director bonuses being paid as a condition of the refinancing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is the accepted term.
    Not really, since that would also apply to blackmail.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,501
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    I think its the case that politicians used to do almost every contortion possible to avoid telling a direct lie. See Michael Howard avoiding Paxman's question and so on. I think its changed a bit but I still think direct lies are quite rare. I think the covid parties is an example of this. Johnson idiotically thought that what had gone on was ok, so when said there where no parties, I think he believed it. Idiot. I also strongly suspect that the Blairs avoided the use of MMR for their youngest son as at the time there was a lot of pressure around it and Cherie was heavily under the influence of Carole Caplin. But he tended to avoid the question (perhaps fairly) rather than say yes or no.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    Yes, Brown was probably delusional, but I don't think he was actively dishonest in this case.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,645
    edited 11:21AM
    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,705
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is accepted term.
    Well the article is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5kpkypxp6o and it seems a desperate measure if reports that only 22% of sales this year have been electric is true
    I have just bought a second hand VW Polo petrol with 25k miles for approximately £12k. New cars (wether electric or not) are too expensive and I am a higher rate taxpayer. I am not sure how people afford them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    What a load of shite. We Brexited partly because europhiles and Remainers told the British voters lie after lie after lie, for fifty years, about the EEC/EU. "It's just a tidying up exercise." "We promise you a referendum". "The Lisbon Treaty is not the Constitution". On and on

    And in the end all those lies exploded in their faces, with Brexit

    Good
    Kinabalu's version is considerably more interesting than your outing for your favourite hobbyhorse.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,243
    edited 11:30AM

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is accepted term.
    Well the article is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5kpkypxp6o and it seems a desperate measure if reports that only 22% of sales this year have been electric is true
    I have just bought a second hand VW Polo petrol with 25k miles for approximately £12k. New cars (wether electric or not) are too expensive and I am a higher rate taxpayer. I am not sure how people afford them.
    Same - we're in the top 90% income households and dreading the day our car finally packs it in. The opportunity cost of that £10k+ on something serviceable...

    The confected drama around EVs is frustrating. There are going to be ICEs on the road until the mid 2040s - the average age of a car is 9 years in the UK, in the EU it's 12.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,666
    The most notable thing about this article is that the Irish man in question was 40 days in ICE detention before Trump was sworn in.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/15/irish-tourist-ice-detention
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684
    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,722
    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,627

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    LOL. If they give a laptop to a Bootie, what the fuck do they expect?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    A good example would be the Thames Water director telling the Commons committee that their refinancing investors insisted on their director bonuses being paid as a condition of the refinancing.
    That could well be true.

    The phenomenon of Remuneration Committees recommending insane executive rewards is well known. The fact that such committees are always made up of executives…

    Picture a circle of monkeys. Each scratches the back of their right hand neighbour.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    It's not the graph, it's the numbers. It's a side-of-the-bus trap.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,597

    The most notable thing about this article is that the Irish man in question was 40 days in ICE detention before Trump was sworn in.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/15/irish-tourist-ice-detention

    A doctor ordered him not to travel for eight to 12 weeks due to the risk of blood clots, which, he said, meant he had to stay slightly past 8 December, when his authorization expired.

    What an utter fool. He should have left after 11 weeks and 4 days.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,645

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    It'd still be pretty remarkable, if it were actually true. New immigrants aren't entitled to UC so it's not related to recent immigration.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,442

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    LibDem barchart lies... Lies don't come much more egregious. Well, maybe tuition fees...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,645

    The most notable thing about this article is that the Irish man in question was 40 days in ICE detention before Trump was sworn in.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/15/irish-tourist-ice-detention

    Well, and the arrest for false imprisonment of his girlfriend. Guardian left that one until paragraph six or seven...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,802

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    These polls becoming quite consistent now:

    Reform clearly in lead with high 20s, enough to be largest party.

    Labour stuck in low 20s, with at least half the current cabinet cruising for a bruising come the election on this showing.

    Tories on very of wipeout territory in mid-teens.

    Lib Dems/Greens with combined 28%, which shows potential if only Left could ever unite — and the opportunity for new Jezbollah Party of Corbyn/Sultana (another threat to Labour, which could demote it to the teens).

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1945078706835276252
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,784
    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,261

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    A good example would be the Thames Water director telling the Commons committee that their refinancing investors insisted on their director bonuses being paid as a condition of the refinancing.
    That could well be true.

    The phenomenon of Remuneration Committees recommending insane executive rewards is well known. The fact that such committees are always made up of executives…

    Picture a circle of monkeys. Each scratches the back of their right hand neighbour.
    It's not.
    They've returned to the Commons and admitted as much.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,092
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    I agree that the statement from Brown is not a lie.

    But, I do think that misrepresentation, or omission of key facts, can amount to a lie.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,213

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    Sky suggesting compensation may eventually cost £7 billion
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,227
    DougSeal said:

    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o

    You oughta know.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,666

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    I've looked at the source data and I see the numbers going from 877k to 1,215k - so I'm not sure why the numbers I'm looking at are different to those plotted.

    The numbers I found from the DWP are higher, but with less of an increase over the period.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,501
    DougSeal said:

    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o

    The only thing ironic in the song is that nothing in the lyrics describes an ironic situation...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,127
    DougSeal said:

    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o

    It turns out that being in office (rather than having the power to holler from the sidelines) is a Jagged Little Pill for Reform to swallow.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,511

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s ludicrous to be firing someone over one alleged racist joke who then apologised . That should be the end of the matter .

    OTOH I can't believe the BBC got Wallace involved with the latest Masterchef series, I know they'll have to pay him salary till the allegations are proven (or not) one way or the other but surely sticking him on paid leave and getting say Galetti in his place to do the regular series would have been a prudent move.
    The chemistry of the show needs an Everyman character like Wallace. NOT a pro chef but someone good on camera and can be funny and puts people at ease (this is not a comment on whatever he did or didn’t do off camera)

    I’ve heard from people who work on the show that he is not just good at this but crucially good. The two chefs are lofty and superior, Wallace is a pivot between them and the contestants and the audience, Wallace enjoys food but as an amateur

    What you’re saying is like @Roger saying “oh just find a funny guy, he will replace Jeremy Clarkson, that’s Top Gear sorted”

    Gregg Wallace is not a truly big talent like Clarkson but he’s definitely a talent

    The BBC need someone like him but not him

    Paddy McGuiness springs to mind. Or a real foodie Ed Gamble.
    That would it be well fecked then and unwatchable.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    Sky suggesting compensation may eventually cost £7 billion
    Actually it does look as if the government did act to bring likely victims here.

    UK set up secret Afghan relocation scheme after data breach
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8zy78787o
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,092

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    Sky suggesting compensation may eventually cost £7 billion
    No doubt lessons will have been learned, and most will have died before the compensation payments are made.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649
    Dura_Ace said:

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    LOL. If they give a laptop to a Bootie, what the fuck do they expect?
    This is why system level blocks on idiocy are useful.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,744
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is the accepted term.
    Not really, since that would also apply to blackmail.
    Okay, we’ll call bribes facilitation or access fees.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    It'd still be pretty remarkable, if it were actually true. New immigrants aren't entitled to UC so it's not related to recent immigration.
    "Foreign Nationals" will include plenty who are fully entitled to be here, and have been here for decades.

    Just a shit-stirrer, stirring shit imo.

    Like Goodwin's stats implying a big scary we-are-about-to-be-replaced fear, defining Nigel Farage's children by his German wife as not "White British".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,649
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    A good example would be the Thames Water director telling the Commons committee that their refinancing investors insisted on their director bonuses being paid as a condition of the refinancing.
    That could well be true.

    The phenomenon of Remuneration Committees recommending insane executive rewards is well known. The fact that such committees are always made up of executives…

    Picture a circle of monkeys. Each scratches the back of their right hand neighbour.
    It's not.
    They've returned to the Commons and admitted as much.
    I take it they handed back the bonuses, of course?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,127
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Right. I have an unusual commission for Basalt Bliss Magazine

    I have to do a quick history of Political Lying. What are the standout lies in politics for PBers in the last decade or two, or indeed in all of history?

    Brexit produced some corkers, on both sides. Any others?

    For me the number one lie has to be from Gordon Brown in 1997: "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/budget97/live/housing.shtml
    People are not doing this properly. That's a broken promise not a lie. Politics is full of broken promises. They are its base currency. It's also full of deliberate misrepresentations and devious misleading language. These are not lies. "Lie" loses its specific meaning if applied to all that sort of thing.

    A lie is a statement on a serious matter offered seriously that is knowingly and unequivocably false as a matter of fact. They are quite rare in politics and in life generally. Or rather they were quite rare in politics. It's one of the most pernicious Trump effects that he's normalising lying. We're not there yet but it's the direction of travel.
    I agree that the statement from Brown is not a lie.

    But, I do think that misrepresentation, or omission of key facts, can amount to a lie.
    Hence the importance of "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

    Politicians have always weaseled about the second of those- usually with the justification that to tell the whole truth would take all day. But the traditional convention has been that, if asked a sufficiently sharply-targeted question, the politician has to answer accurately, however reluctantly.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,871
    carnforth said:

    The most notable thing about this article is that the Irish man in question was 40 days in ICE detention before Trump was sworn in.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/15/irish-tourist-ice-detention

    Well, and the arrest for false imprisonment of his girlfriend. Guardian left that one until paragraph six or seven...
    If his doctor had told him not to travel for "eight to 12 weeks" the accident must have happened quite early in his stay. He could have applied for leave to remain longer in good time. Alternatively, as he was only trying to leave three days late, he could have left at, say, seven and a half weeks.

    Overstaying your visa and being arrested on suspicion of a crime is not exactly going to put you on good terms with immigration anywhere,
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,511
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is accepted term.
    Well the article is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5kpkypxp6o and it seems a desperate measure if reports that only 22% of sales this year have been electric is true
    I have just bought a second hand VW Polo petrol with 25k miles for approximately £12k. New cars (wether electric or not) are too expensive and I am a higher rate taxpayer. I am not sure how people afford them.
    Same - we're in the top 90% income households and dreading the day our car finally packs it in. The opportunity cost of that £10k+ on something serviceable...

    The confected drama around EVs is frustrating. There are going to be ICEs on the road until the mid 2040s - the average age of a car is 9 years in the UK, in the EU it's 12.
    I will stick with big diesel's, powerful and efficient, and clean if euro 6
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,227
    MattW said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    It'd still be pretty remarkable, if it were actually true. New immigrants aren't entitled to UC so it's not related to recent immigration.
    "Foreign Nationals" will include plenty who are fully entitled to be here, and have been here for decades.
    What a stupid point. Do you think there are people receiving Universal Credit who are not entitled to be here?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,785

    DougSeal said:

    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o

    The only thing ironic in the song is that nothing in the lyrics describes an ironic situation...
    A death row pardon two minutes late is, maybe ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,511
    Sean_F said:

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    Sky suggesting compensation may eventually cost £7 billion
    No doubt lessons will have been learned, and most will have died before the compensation payments are made.
    Unless they have been done in by the Taliban why would they need compensation
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,684
    Lineker takes top spot on BBC earnings for eighth year running
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07d082jpkko

    And he doesn't even work for them!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,994
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s ludicrous to be firing someone over one alleged racist joke who then apologised . That should be the end of the matter .

    OTOH I can't believe the BBC got Wallace involved with the latest Masterchef series, I know they'll have to pay him salary till the allegations are proven (or not) one way or the other but surely sticking him on paid leave and getting say Galetti in his place to do the regular series would have been a prudent move.
    The chemistry of the show needs an Everyman character like Wallace. NOT a pro chef but someone good on camera and can be funny and puts people at ease (this is not a comment on whatever he did or didn’t do off camera)

    I’ve heard from people who work on the show that he is not just good at this but crucially good. The two chefs are lofty and superior, Wallace is a pivot between them and the contestants and the audience, Wallace enjoys food but as an amateur

    What you’re saying is like @Roger saying “oh just find a funny guy, he will replace Jeremy Clarkson, that’s Top Gear sorted”

    Gregg Wallace is not a truly big talent like Clarkson but he’s definitely a talent

    The BBC need someone like him but not him

    Paddy McGuiness springs to mind. Or a real foodie Ed Gamble.
    That would it be well fecked then and unwatchable.
    Agreed. I fail to see any discernible talent in Paddy McGuinness. He is one of those “celebrities” like Philip Schofield or Stacey Solomon that you wonder what everyone else sees in them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,092

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    Bribe is such an ugly term, incentive based decision making is the accepted term.
    Not really, since that would also apply to blackmail.
    Okay, we’ll call bribes facilitation or access fees.
    Also courtesy payments, motivation amounts, and money for tea.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,871
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    UC was introduced incrementally; some would have been transferred from predecessor schemes.
    The graph scale on the y axis has been deliberately chosen to make it look provocative. If the scale started at zero it wouldn't be remarkable at all.
    (My libdem view...)
    It'd still be pretty remarkable, if it were actually true. New immigrants aren't entitled to UC so it's not related to recent immigration.
    It's related to fairly recent immigration - I imagine the majority will be EU cits with settled status. Many never apply for citizenship even if they intend to stay here, due to the expense and sheer buggeration of dealing with the Home Office.

    Also, if you have been living and working here legally, it's fairly easy to pass the Habitual Residence Test.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,501
    Pulpstar said:

    DougSeal said:

    I think Alanis Morrissette wrote a song about this kind of situation. Damned if I can remember what it was called.

    'Reform-led council calls for more social care visas'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx201znge11o

    The only thing ironic in the song is that nothing in the lyrics describes an ironic situation...
    A death row pardon two minutes late is, maybe ?
    No - that's not ironic, that's just bad luck.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,270
    Sean_F said:

    Costly in terms of 20,000 lives multiplied by family size.

    Our government's main concern was to hush it up: Details about the blunder can finally be made public after a judge lifted a super injunction that had been sought by the government.

    Not unusually, The disaster is thought to have been triggered by the careless handling of an email that contained a list of the names and other details...

    Cybersecurity, who gives a damn?

    Sky suggesting compensation may eventually cost £7 billion
    No doubt lessons will have been learned, and most will have died before the compensation payments are made.
    I call bullshit - and am open to correction.

    Sky did not say "£7 billion cost for compensation"; they call it the estimated "cost of the mistake" (whatever that means).

    And there's no indication where that number comes from or their working. We have:

    "The blunder exposed the personal information of close to 20,000 individuals, endangering them and their families.

    The total cost of the mistake has been estimated at around £7bn."

    and for a former case we have 265 victims, £4k each compensation, and a fine of £350k, giving 265 * 4000 + £350k = £1.41 million, or a cost of these charges being we have a cost of £5320 per victim. Times 20k this time that is £106.4 million.

    I think Sky have asked an Arts Graduate to do the Maths, who has picked 2 of the big numbers at random £350k and 20,000, and multiplied them to get £7bn as their "estimate".
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,871
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    You can use the £3750 for a bicycle or a bus pass instead, right?!

    This is the trouble with EV policy - it needs to be equitable, and it needs to push the door open for people who don't have drives. I'd much rather they spent it on buying e-buses, on on-street chargers, or a similar grant for e-bikes (or even scooters).

    For richer people EVs already make financial sense.
    Indeed, and what about subsidising second-hand cars for those unable to afford a new one?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,677

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Have we covered the new £650m bribe to get users to buy new small electric cars

    You can use the £3750 for a bicycle or a bus pass instead, right?!

    This is the trouble with EV policy - it needs to be equitable, and it needs to push the door open for people who don't have drives. I'd much rather they spent it on buying e-buses, on on-street chargers, or a similar grant for e-bikes (or even scooters).

    For richer people EVs already make financial sense.
    Indeed, and what about subsidising second-hand cars for those unable to afford a new one?
    The government needs 28% of new car sales to be EVs by December for this years target to be hit. It’s currently 22%

    I believe that’s all that matters here trying to get the next few years’ targets hit
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