Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

You can't handle the truth. Honesty is Starmer’s only advantage over Farage – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,570
edited 6:51AM in General
You can't handle the truth. Honesty is Starmer’s only advantage over Farage – politicalbetting.com

Voters believe Nigel Farage, the Reform UK leader, is better than Sir Keir Starmer in almost every respect but is less honest than him, according to a poll.

Read the full story here

«134

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231
    Not a great metric for either.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231
    "paying greater attention to detail"

    Forensic Farage ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    Nice picture!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,734

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231

    Nice picture!

    TSE's decision to cut off Farage's unmentionables was a good one.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    edited 7:03AM
    Farage v Starmer

    Relationship with Russia; Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Trump; Farage 8 v Starmer 2

    Sartorial elegance (casual shorts department); Farage 10 v Starmer 0
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    Won't cutting off Farage's nuts traumatise them even more?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,500
    Toss up who is the most useless of the pair, bollocks indeed.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,650

    Farage v Starmer

    Relationship with Russia; Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Trump; Farage 8 v Starmer 2

    Sartorial elegance (casual shorts department); Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Russia - wasn't Farage paid to appear on Russia Today?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,286
    I suppose it would be too much to expect the broadcasting colossus that is Madeley to ask the supplementary question why is Northern Ireland close to being an economic basket case.

    https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1944644394558042208?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,138
    And so it has actually happened.

    The front page of the Times is reporting a shortage of Good Brie.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,286

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    Won't cutting off Farage's nuts traumatise them even more?
    I believe like another populist right wing leader one of them has already been cut off. Whether it resides in the Albert Hall I know not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177
    edited 7:16AM
    So voters don't think Nigel Farage "tells it as it is" then.

    Hats off voters.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200
    edited 7:15AM
    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    An absolutely essentially piece of safeguarding.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    ...
    eek said:

    Farage v Starmer

    Relationship with Russia; Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Trump; Farage 8 v Starmer 2

    Sartorial elegance (casual shorts department); Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Russia - wasn't Farage paid to appear on Russia Today?
    That's why he has a ten. Of course (God rest his soul) I could have applied the same marking scheme to Alex Salmond.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,734
    kinabalu said:

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    An absolutely essentially piece of safeguarding.
    I reserve the right to use the original uncropped photo if and when PBers annoy me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    edited 7:25AM

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a hat full of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,500

    ...

    eek said:

    Farage v Starmer

    Relationship with Russia; Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Trump; Farage 8 v Starmer 2

    Sartorial elegance (casual shorts department); Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Russia - wasn't Farage paid to appear on Russia Today?
    That's why he has a ten. Of course (God rest his soul) I could have applied the same marking scheme to Alex Salmond.
    Unlike the other lot who pocket squillions in the shadows unless caught out , aka Greensill, ppe , ad infinitum.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,138

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    So you and HY do have something in common!

    Isn't a Plaid - Labour coalition the likely outcome though?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    So you and HY do have something in common!

    Isn't a Plaid - Labour coalition the likely outcome though?
    Plaid can be a bit edgy though. On the one occasion I voted for them they attempted a coalition with UKIP and the Tories.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,734

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    Won't cutting off Farage's nuts traumatise them even more?
    Nah, one thing that unites all PBers is the desire to never see that Farage photo again in its uncropped form.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    malcolmg said:

    ...

    eek said:

    Farage v Starmer

    Relationship with Russia; Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Trump; Farage 8 v Starmer 2

    Sartorial elegance (casual shorts department); Farage 10 v Starmer 0

    Relationship with Russia - wasn't Farage paid to appear on Russia Today?
    That's why he has a ten. Of course (God rest his soul) I could have applied the same marking scheme to Alex Salmond.
    Unlike the other lot who pocket squillions in the shadows unless caught out , aka Greensill, ppe , ad infinitum.
    The Greensill cash was just resting in their accounts!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,118
    stodge said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    Not for the first time, I'm going to disagree with you on much of this.

    I'm left with a number of thoughts - had, by some miracle, Rishi Sunak been re-elected, would he now have as dire poll numbers as Starmer? Probably. Had, by some other miracle, Farage and Reform won last year's election, would he have such good numbers as he has now? Probably not.

    There seemed to have been some unrealistic expectations about what an incoming Labour Government could, should or would do and, among some, there is almost a reflexive dislike of the very concept of a "Labour Government" which is up there with what you should or shouldn't put on a pizza.

    Starmer had two choices - one was to be radical and unpopular from day one. We all knew restoring the public finances and trying to correct years of Conservative inertia (as an aside, my biggest condemnation of your party is not that they did the wrong thing but rather they did nothing across a range of issues) would involve pain in terms of tax rises and spending cuts and going hard on that (hampered by the OBR) would have been helpful.

    The other option was to be Continuity Sunak and continue to kick the can of the difficult issues down the road. Change without change so to speak.

    Starmer's problem is he has tried to do both and done neither. We have half-hearted exhortations of change backed up by continuing inertia and hamstrung, despite a large majority, by a tranche of fearful MPs suspecting their tenure on Westminster could be very short. It has disappointed those who hoped for better and confirmed the fears of those who suspected the worst.

    The one saving grace for Starmer is none of his political opponents have the slightest clue how to handle the big issues from the "small boats" to social care to prison places to balancing the public finances to the huge demographic and technological challenges our economy and society has to confront and this helps Starmer and Labour enormously.

    People are frustrated not because it's the wrong type of change but there appears to be no change. Another summer and the "boats" are still coming, the economy is still stagnating etc. The other side of this desire for change is the solutions most people have are either incoherent, ruinously expensive, illegal or all three predicated on it being pain for other people but not for themselves. The frustration is as much because no one can see the solutions rather than there being obvious solutions but the Government won't implement them.
    It's slightly worse than that, though.

    There are obvious solutions to Britain's problems. Cut welfare for the undeserving, just tell foreigners to go away, don't do any investment that has a payback time beyond the next election. You know the sort of thing, some might call it common sense. It's just Deep State Conspiracy that stops us doing them.

    Trouble with those obvious solutions tends to be that they're either creating even bigger problems down the line, or rubbish in ways that are boring and fiddly to explain.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,108
    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625
    stodge said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    Not for the first time, I'm going to disagree with you on much of this.

    I'm left with a number of thoughts - had, by some miracle, Rishi Sunak been re-elected, would he now have as dire poll numbers as Starmer? Probably. Had, by some other miracle, Farage and Reform won last year's election, would he have such good numbers as he has now? Probably not.

    There seemed to have been some unrealistic expectations about what an incoming Labour Government could, should or would do and, among some, there is almost a reflexive dislike of the very concept of a "Labour Government" which is up there with what you should or shouldn't put on a pizza.

    Starmer had two choices - one was to be radical and unpopular from day one. We all knew restoring the public finances and trying to correct years of Conservative inertia (as an aside, my biggest condemnation of your party is not that they did the wrong thing but rather they did nothing across a range of issues) would involve pain in terms of tax rises and spending cuts and going hard on that (hampered by the OBR) would have been helpful.

    The other option was to be Continuity Sunak and continue to kick the can of the difficult issues down the road. Change without change so to speak.

    Starmer's problem is he has tried to do both and done neither. We have half-hearted exhortations of change backed up by continuing inertia and hamstrung, despite a large majority, by a tranche of fearful MPs suspecting their tenure on Westminster could be very short. It has disappointed those who hoped for better and confirmed the fears of those who suspected the worst.

    The one saving grace for Starmer is none of his political opponents have the slightest clue how to handle the big issues from the "small boats" to social care to prison places to balancing the public finances to the huge demographic and technological challenges our economy and society has to confront and this helps Starmer and Labour enormously.

    People are frustrated not because it's the wrong type of change but there appears to be no change. Another summer and the "boats" are still coming, the economy is still stagnating etc. The other side of this desire for change is the solutions most people have are either incoherent, ruinously expensive, illegal or all three predicated on it being pain for other people but not for themselves. The frustration is as much because no one can see the solutions rather than there being obvious solutions but the Government won't implement them.
    The mood music among the Head Count is “They are all useless. And they are not in control.”

    It’s the control but that grates the most.

    Farage is not seen as a messiah - just the Next Try.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,118

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,210
    Starmer has all the integrity of Boris Johnson so to do worse than him on that question is pretty poor. But appropriate for Farage.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,118
    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,246

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,214
    In FAFO news:

    "American vlogging family with three young kids moves to Russia.

    Husband is promised Russian citizenship and rear area service as a welder if he joins the RU Army.

    Gets sent to the Ukrainian frontline after 3 weeks of training."

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1944459550725464565
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680
    Morning all.
    Opinion on leaders a product of current VI as people paste their hopes on them shocker.
    Hopefully before the next GE everyone will remember what a spiv he is.
  • Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    Hang on, I thought you were a proud British Unionist?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,881
    I can see Farage leading Starmer on being a stronger leader and more in touch with ordinary people. But paying greater attention to detail?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,117
    edited 8:08AM

    I suppose it would be too much to expect the broadcasting colossus that is Madeley to ask the supplementary question why is Northern Ireland close to being an economic basket case.

    https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1944644394558042208?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    stodge said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    Not for the first time, I'm going to disagree with you on much of this.

    I'm left with a number of thoughts - had, by some miracle, Rishi Sunak been re-elected, would he now have as dire poll numbers as Starmer? Probably. Had, by some other miracle, Farage and Reform won last year's election, would he have such good numbers as he has now? Probably not.

    There seemed to have been some unrealistic expectations about what an incoming Labour Government could, should or would do and, among some, there is almost a reflexive dislike of the very concept of a "Labour Government" which is up there with what you should or shouldn't put on a pizza.

    Starmer had two choices - one was to be radical and unpopular from day one. We all knew restoring the public finances and trying to correct years of Conservative inertia (as an aside, my biggest condemnation of your party is not that they did the wrong thing but rather they did nothing across a range of issues) would involve pain in terms of tax rises and spending cuts and going hard on that (hampered by the OBR) would have been helpful.

    The other option was to be Continuity Sunak and continue to kick the can of the difficult issues down the road. Change without change so to speak.

    Starmer's problem is he has tried to do both and done neither. We have half-hearted exhortations of change backed up by continuing inertia and hamstrung, despite a large majority, by a tranche of fearful MPs suspecting their tenure on Westminster could be very short. It has disappointed those who hoped for better and confirmed the fears of those who suspected the worst.

    The one saving grace for Starmer is none of his political opponents have the slightest clue how to handle the big issues from the "small boats" to social care to prison places to balancing the public finances to the huge demographic and technological challenges our economy and society has to confront and this helps Starmer and Labour enormously.

    People are frustrated not because it's the wrong type of change but there appears to be no change. Another summer and the "boats" are still coming, the economy is still stagnating etc. The other side of this desire for change is the solutions most people have are either incoherent, ruinously expensive, illegal or all three predicated on it being pain for other people but not for themselves. The frustration is as much because no one can see the solutions rather than there being obvious solutions but the Government won't implement them.
    The mood music among the Head Count is “They are all useless. And they are not in control.”

    It’s the control but that grates the most.

    Farage is not seen as a messiah - just the Next Try.
    Corporate Flow Chart as an answer to both comments.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177

    stodge said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    Not for the first time, I'm going to disagree with you on much of this.

    I'm left with a number of thoughts - had, by some miracle, Rishi Sunak been re-elected, would he now have as dire poll numbers as Starmer? Probably. Had, by some other miracle, Farage and Reform won last year's election, would he have such good numbers as he has now? Probably not.

    There seemed to have been some unrealistic expectations about what an incoming Labour Government could, should or would do and, among some, there is almost a reflexive dislike of the very concept of a "Labour Government" which is up there with what you should or shouldn't put on a pizza.

    Starmer had two choices - one was to be radical and unpopular from day one. We all knew restoring the public finances and trying to correct years of Conservative inertia (as an aside, my biggest condemnation of your party is not that they did the wrong thing but rather they did nothing across a range of issues) would involve pain in terms of tax rises and spending cuts and going hard on that (hampered by the OBR) would have been helpful.

    The other option was to be Continuity Sunak and continue to kick the can of the difficult issues down the road. Change without change so to speak.

    Starmer's problem is he has tried to do both and done neither. We have half-hearted exhortations of change backed up by continuing inertia and hamstrung, despite a large majority, by a tranche of fearful MPs suspecting their tenure on Westminster could be very short. It has disappointed those who hoped for better and confirmed the fears of those who suspected the worst.

    The one saving grace for Starmer is none of his political opponents have the slightest clue how to handle the big issues from the "small boats" to social care to prison places to balancing the public finances to the huge demographic and technological challenges our economy and society has to confront and this helps Starmer and Labour enormously.

    People are frustrated not because it's the wrong type of change but there appears to be no change. Another summer and the "boats" are still coming, the economy is still stagnating etc. The other side of this desire for change is the solutions most people have are either incoherent, ruinously expensive, illegal or all three predicated on it being pain for other people but not for themselves. The frustration is as much because no one can see the solutions rather than there being obvious solutions but the Government won't implement them.
    The mood music among the Head Count is “They are all useless. And they are not in control.”

    It’s the control but that grates the most.

    Farage is not seen as a messiah - just the Next Try.
    Missing an "o" from that final word there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,881

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    Hang on, I thought you were a proud British Unionist?
    The SNP are a good lesson that to defeat Labour in Scotland they attracked voters who were unionists

    In Wales, Labour have been in power far too long and Plaid or Reform are the best chance to copy the SNP, and as in Scotland there is no chance of Plaid winning a referendum and in any respect they have declared it is not something for their first term in office
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    stodge said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    Not for the first time, I'm going to disagree with you on much of this.

    I'm left with a number of thoughts - had, by some miracle, Rishi Sunak been re-elected, would he now have as dire poll numbers as Starmer? Probably. Had, by some other miracle, Farage and Reform won last year's election, would he have such good numbers as he has now? Probably not.

    There seemed to have been some unrealistic expectations about what an incoming Labour Government could, should or would do and, among some, there is almost a reflexive dislike of the very concept of a "Labour Government" which is up there with what you should or shouldn't put on a pizza.

    Starmer had two choices - one was to be radical and unpopular from day one. We all knew restoring the public finances and trying to correct years of Conservative inertia (as an aside, my biggest condemnation of your party is not that they did the wrong thing but rather they did nothing across a range of issues) would involve pain in terms of tax rises and spending cuts and going hard on that (hampered by the OBR) would have been helpful.

    The other option was to be Continuity Sunak and continue to kick the can of the difficult issues down the road. Change without change so to speak.

    Starmer's problem is he has tried to do both and done neither. We have half-hearted exhortations of change backed up by continuing inertia and hamstrung, despite a large majority, by a tranche of fearful MPs suspecting their tenure on Westminster could be very short. It has disappointed those who hoped for better and confirmed the fears of those who suspected the worst.

    The one saving grace for Starmer is none of his political opponents have the slightest clue how to handle the big issues from the "small boats" to social care to prison places to balancing the public finances to the huge demographic and technological challenges our economy and society has to confront and this helps Starmer and Labour enormously.

    People are frustrated not because it's the wrong type of change but there appears to be no change. Another summer and the "boats" are still coming, the economy is still stagnating etc. The other side of this desire for change is the solutions most people have are either incoherent, ruinously expensive, illegal or all three predicated on it being pain for other people but not for themselves. The frustration is as much because no one can see the solutions rather than there being obvious solutions but the Government won't implement them.
    Great post!

    The Conservatives in the Daily Telegraph and on here still haven't got over losing the election and I am not sure Starmer believes he won. There is definitely some imposter syndrome to review. The Tories defeat was so comprehensive they are now clinging to former Tory Farage for salvation.

    This government have been slow out of the blocks and very poor at politics. They should have done the really nasty stuff this time last year but they failed that test.

    The government have made poor policy decisions ( NI and Welfare) and made poor sells of WFA and Farmer's inheritance tax. ( the WFA was also poorly thought through).

    Where they have had a modicum of mixed success is foreign policy. Although foreign policy requires negotiation and that leads to concession pros and cons. Right wing media, social media and PB posters have sold every agreement and trade deal as 100% capitulation. These are the same writers, journalists and PB posters who told us Boris Johnson got all the big calls right. According to them the arrangement with France over asylum seekers has failed already.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,881

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a hat full of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    Or Stride
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680
    HYUFD said:

    I can see Farage leading Starmer on being a stronger leader and more in touch with ordinary people. But paying greater attention to detail?

    Like his careful attention to spending of EU funds.
    Or his attention to Clacton residents concerns. If he was ever there to hear them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a hat full of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    Or Stride
    Stride doesn't do performative cruelty. Next.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    So you and HY do have something in common!

    Isn't a Plaid - Labour coalition the likely outcome though?
    It is not certain because if the polls are correct Labour will have been firmly rejected by the Welsh, do maybe govern as a minority government

    Certainty it would not be popular if Plaid facilitated Labour in office
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,481

    And so it has actually happened.

    The front page of the Times is reporting a shortage of Good Brie.

    I hope they had an appropriate headline.

    "It's not Good Brie - UK shoppers say au revoir to top French cheeses in cattle disease outbreak"

    I guess it's la vache qui ne rit pas now :disappointed:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    Won't cutting off Farage's nuts traumatise them even more?
    Nah, one thing that unites all PBers is the desire to never see that Farage photo again in its uncropped form.
    In any form would be best
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    So you and HY do have something in common!

    Isn't a Plaid - Labour coalition the likely outcome though?
    It is not certain because if the polls are correct Labour will have been firmly rejected by the Welsh, do maybe govern as a minority government

    Certainty it would not be popular if Plaid facilitated Labour in office
    Problem is any minority administration is going to get collapsed as soon as the polls turn, so they'll want the security of a coalition. A Plaid/Labour admin is a very likely outcome
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,481
    kinabalu said:

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    An absolutely essentially piece of safeguarding.
    Impact of the online safety bill?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200
    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    Not necessarily
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680
    Good spread of local elections this week. Double Con defence in Dartford that Reform will be heavily targeting and in return another Reform defence of a May win where the councillor has resigned in Staffordshire that they won by a few votes from Con who will be targeting it heavily. A Labour defence in Basildon in the Baz and Ricky/Holden seat and further defences for LD, Lab, Con, PC and Green
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231
    I hadn't realised that the US still retains wartime operational control of the S Korean armed forces.

    Is this arrangement unique ?

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/southkorea/defense/20250714/seoul-cautious-on-opcon-transfer-as-us-moves-to-restore-restriction
    ...Wartime control of South Korean forces was handed to the U.S.-led U.N. Command during the Korean War and has yet to return. While Seoul regained peacetime control in 1994, efforts to reclaim wartime authority have faced repeated delays.

    Korea first moved to reclaim wartime operational control in August 2006, during the Roh Moo-hyun administration. A month later, Seoul and Washington agreed on basic principles and set April 17, 2012, as the target date. That year, the two sides also drafted a strategic transition plan to guide the handover.

    However, growing opposition from conservative parties and heightened security concerns following North Korean military provocations resulted in a delay...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680
    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    There is no PR top up vote in Wales this time. Tactical voting is meaningless
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177
    Good piece of analysis by Stodge there. I like a bit of hope and positivity in my politics, try hard to avoid miserable gittery, but I do think the formulation that success = outcome - expectations is especially relevant atm. If you get elected through inflating E well beyond what any realistic O could look like you set yourself up to fail. I don't know what the answer is but I do know what it isn't and that is to "roll the dice" with Nigel Farage and Reform. That isn't rolling the dice because it lacks the key ingredient of a possible win. It's just another iteration of what I'm talking about, in spades.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    Not necessarily
    I can't see PC throwing their hat in with Reform AGAIN (UKIP). The current likelihood would be Plaid are the senior partner in any coalition/ c and s with anyone but Ref and Con.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    There is no PR top up vote in Wales this time. Tactical voting is meaningless
    Given the current polling - with several realistic contenders in some constituencies - tactical voting will still be around (see Big_G's Plaid vote).
    Just in a different form.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    Not necessarily
    I can't see PC throwing their hat in with Reform AGAIN (UKIP). The current likelihood would be Plaid are the senior partner in any coalition/ c and s with anyone but Ref and Con.
    Which means Labour as LD and Green will have very few seats (if any in Greens case)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    There is no PR top up vote in Wales this time. Tactical voting is meaningless
    Given the current polling - with several realistic contenders in some constituencies - tactical voting will still be around (see Big_G's Plaid vote).
    Just in a different form.
    Yeah but its 6 seats per constituency, tactical voting becomes meaningless, all it does is deny smaller parties (Green, LD, Con in many cases) their chances at the sixth seat.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,207
    Hard to say without seeing the actual poll but I suspect I disagree with the British public. Including the leadership question, where Starmer is pretty bad, but Farage is much worse again. He hasn't led a party that didn't subsequently collapse into dust.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,200

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    Not necessarily
    I can't see PC throwing their hat in with Reform AGAIN (UKIP). The current likelihood would be Plaid are the senior partner in any coalition/ c and s with anyone but Ref and Con.
    Probably
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning

    This poll shows just how Starmer has failed in his first year and opened the door to Farage

    With the conservatives presently dead in the water and another poll this morning in the Metro affirming the public 'do not trust any of them', the country is in a deep hole and hence the illusion Farage is the answer

    I would suggest there are less than a handful of our fellow posters who actually endorse Farage but he certainly receives the wide publicity he does due to our political vacuum

    If your team can get Jenrick up and running as LOTO and with a barrow load of performative cruelty you are back in the game.
    I have no idea where the conservatives will be by the next GE, but for next year Senedd it is Plaid for me as the best chance to beat Labour
    A couple of queries, though.

    First- aren't the next Senedd elections under a really proportional system, so you might as well vote for who you actually want?

    Second- won't a Plaid government give you all the things you dislike about Labour but with knobs on?
    He has a PR top up and yes Plaid would almost certainly govern with Labour anyway to keep out Reform
    Not necessarily
    I can't see PC throwing their hat in with Reform AGAIN (UKIP). The current likelihood would be Plaid are the senior partner in any coalition/ c and s with anyone but Ref and Con.
    Which means Labour as LD and Green will have very few seats (if any in Greens case)
    Not beyond the realms of probability as things stand.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,246
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625
    edited 8:56AM
    FF43 said:

    Hard to say without seeing the actual poll but I suspect I disagree with the British public. Including the leadership question, where Starmer is pretty bad, but Farage is much worse again. He hasn't led a party that didn't subsequently collapse into dust.

    The main parties seem to be fine with the Process State - everything excites in cost faster than inflation, timelines are decades, and the courts are increasingly the Third Legislative Chamber.

    Sooner or later, a government is going to come in and use primary legislation to try and do stuff faster. The only questions are - When? and Which party?

    EDIT: The second stage, after that, will be to take the lesson from MAGA. Take control of courts by flooding the judiciary with the like minded.

    Yes, these will be fun times indeed.

    So far, it doesn't look like Farage is up for this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nice picture!

    I've cropped the original picture as not to traumatise snowflake PBers.
    An absolutely essentially piece of safeguarding.
    Impact of the online safety bill?
    It's probably TSE's own moral compass, but yes perhaps that's a factor too. It's what it's there for after all. To protect. And before people start talking about nanny state, if you don't like it you can always log out etc, they should look at the big picture. The fact is that children could be lurking here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
    Was Epstein a suicide, was Virginia Roberts a suicide, will Ghislaine be a suicide?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,207
    kinabalu said:

    Good piece of analysis by Stodge there. I like a bit of hope and positivity in my politics, try hard to avoid miserable gittery, but I do think the formulation that success = outcome - expectations is especially relevant atm. If you get elected through inflating E well beyond what any realistic O could look like you set yourself up to fail. I don't know what the answer is but I do know what it isn't and that is to "roll the dice" with Nigel Farage and Reform. That isn't rolling the dice because it lacks the key ingredient of a possible win. It's just another iteration of what I'm talking about, in spades.

    Yes. Particularly on this site we should be in favour of calculating our risks.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,420

    And so it has actually happened.

    The front page of the Times is reporting a shortage of Good Brie.

    Had a fabulous Mooo camembert at the weekend. Recommended by the good ladies at the Ticklemore cheese shop in Totnes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,118
    FF43 said:

    Hard to say without seeing the actual poll but I suspect I disagree with the British public. Including the leadership question, where Starmer is pretty bad, but Farage is much worse again. He hasn't led a party that didn't subsequently collapse into dust.

    Suspect the key thing is that a bit less than a third of the electorate are really, really pro-Farage, and hardly anyone is really pro-anyone else.

    The question for the next election looks pretty dismal. One candidate who is intensely loved by some but hated by more. Another candidate who stirs nobody's enthusiasm. Who wins?
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 187
    kinabalu said:

    So voters don't think Nigel Farage "tells it as it is" then.

    Hats off voters.

    Of course Starmer never fibs - he's the typical good honest lawyer....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    Of course it won't.

    What's interesting is that some of his supporters are going there.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    kinabalu said:

    Good piece of analysis by Stodge there. I like a bit of hope and positivity in my politics, try hard to avoid miserable gittery, but I do think the formulation that success = outcome - expectations is especially relevant atm. If you get elected through inflating E well beyond what any realistic O could look like you set yourself up to fail. I don't know what the answer is but I do know what it isn't and that is to "roll the dice" with Nigel Farage and Reform. That isn't rolling the dice because it lacks the key ingredient of a possible win. It's just another iteration of what I'm talking about, in spades.

    Farage would be just another roll of the Tory dice, but just a much darker shade than usual.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 187

    Morning all.
    Opinion on leaders a product of current VI as people paste their hopes on them shocker.
    Hopefully before the next GE everyone will remember what a spiv he is.

    Well he seems to buy his own suits....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,420
    Nigelb said:

    I hadn't realised that the US still retains wartime operational control of the S Korean armed forces.

    Is this arrangement unique ?

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/southkorea/defense/20250714/seoul-cautious-on-opcon-transfer-as-us-moves-to-restore-restriction
    ...Wartime control of South Korean forces was handed to the U.S.-led U.N. Command during the Korean War and has yet to return. While Seoul regained peacetime control in 1994, efforts to reclaim wartime authority have faced repeated delays.

    Korea first moved to reclaim wartime operational control in August 2006, during the Roh Moo-hyun administration. A month later, Seoul and Washington agreed on basic principles and set April 17, 2012, as the target date. That year, the two sides also drafted a strategic transition plan to guide the handover.

    However, growing opposition from conservative parties and heightened security concerns following North Korean military provocations resulted in a delay...

    Be interesting to know if there are changes in this following the failed S. Korean coup.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,177
    edited 9:09AM
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
    Yes, Donald Trump was meant to be saving all the children from that sort of thing. A ludicrous notion that he encouraged. So there's an element of "live by the ..." here. But is the 2nd part of that an actual possibility? If he loses control of the wilder shores of Maga, does this really do him much damage?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,231

    FF43 said:

    Hard to say without seeing the actual poll but I suspect I disagree with the British public. Including the leadership question, where Starmer is pretty bad, but Farage is much worse again. He hasn't led a party that didn't subsequently collapse into dust.

    The main parties seem to be fine with the Process State - everything excites in cost faster than inflation, timelines are decades, and the courts are increasingly the Third Legislative Chamber.

    Sooner or later, a government is going to come in and use primary legislation to try and do stuff faster. The only questions are - When? and Which party?

    EDIT: The second stage, after that, will be to take the lesson from MAGA. Take control of courts by flooding the judiciary with the like minded.
    Why ?

    There is nothing constraining Parliament from legislating whatever they want. Which is very different from the position in the US.

    Flooding the judiciary would be a pointless waste of time for a government with a determined program, and a substantial majority.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,420

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
    Was Epstein a suicide, was Virginia Roberts a suicide, will Ghislaine be a suicide?
    If not, there really is a Deep State for the conspiracy theorists to get their teeth into.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625
    edited 9:12AM
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Hard to say without seeing the actual poll but I suspect I disagree with the British public. Including the leadership question, where Starmer is pretty bad, but Farage is much worse again. He hasn't led a party that didn't subsequently collapse into dust.

    The main parties seem to be fine with the Process State - everything excites in cost faster than inflation, timelines are decades, and the courts are increasingly the Third Legislative Chamber.

    Sooner or later, a government is going to come in and use primary legislation to try and do stuff faster. The only questions are - When? and Which party?

    EDIT: The second stage, after that, will be to take the lesson from MAGA. Take control of courts by flooding the judiciary with the like minded.
    Why ?

    There is nothing constraining Parliament from legislating whatever they want. Which is very different from the position in the US.

    Flooding the judiciary would be a pointless waste of time for a government with a determined program, and a substantial majority.
    ECHR etc.

    2040 - "Today, Justice Jeffries ruled that *not* sending asylum seekers to South Georgia to live in tents violated the Human Rights of The People, under the doctrine of Averaged Human Rights."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,198
    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,661
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    Second, given the regime was gung-ho for release just a couple of weeks prior, something must have been uncovered very recently, which again is unlikely to be Trump because his would have been the very first name they checked for.

    Third, that it came up so late suggests it might be something not immediately obvious, a line that requires some dot-joining.

    On the MAGA reaction, remember it is not just about Epstein but also that Trump seems to be double-crossing MAGA, which is isolationist, on the SMO by releasing arms to Ukraine that had been blocked by Pete at the Pentagon, and also bombing Iran. Texas is the cherry on top.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,661

    And so it has actually happened.

    The front page of the Times is reporting a shortage of Good Brie.

    There's a shortage of Somerset Brie?
    https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-somerset-brie-160g
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,536

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    I’m far from “woke” but in theory it’s not a bad idea to look for “diamonds in the rough”. A lot of traditional routes to being a fund manager, right school, university, degree are blocked or mysteries to sections of society where there could be fantastic analytical brains just needing to be moulded a bit having missed the chance earlier in education and without family support.

    As long as it’s properly competitive and the programme and entry levels are set for ability and not just for feels then it could find growth by allowing people to set up and run business where they would have just bumbled along the sea bed otherwise.

    If you get the right people being the selectors, properly successful city people and not people from pressure groups then it could work for everyone.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    ...

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    Why not? The last British Business Bank, owned by the UK Government created a £500milion economic package to support friends and family of ministers and Tory donors during a pandemic crisis.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,661

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    That in a nutshell is the problem with this godforsaken country. Not support for ‘diverse’ creators or inventors but the idea it is fund managers who need government support. Fund managers!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    This is an American policy that has a long history of fun....

    What happens (in the US) is that minority/veteran owned* firms are setup. These are part of the layering* of government contracts through a pyramid of contracts and sub-contracts. The contracts pass through these firms, as long as they re-direct the contracts to the right firms.

    If the people nominally owning the firms behave nicely, they are allowed to keep a small profit.

    * The game is in how much of the business they really own. It's a bit like the scene from Goodfellas, where the bar owner is encouraged to go into business with Pauli.
    **The word "Layering" is deliberate here. Very often the same firms own multiple companies in the pyramid. Which often do little more than add a profit to passing the contract to a sub-contractor.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,249
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Looks like the general public are in for a rude awakening under PM Farage then.

    Nothing like as rude as the one Farage would get. And I don't think he is a Trump, capable of creating a reality-denial field around himself.
    The Trump field has been punctured by Epstein
    They are deploying a new argument.
    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1944536180181135826
    Not sure that is going to cut it...

    One of the reasons MAGA are so crazy about this is they were genuinely not aware Trump and Epstein were buddies.

    Their information diet to date has been Epstein is a Pedo (sic) and that's really bad, Trump is a saviour.

    They literally haven't seen anything showing Trump and Epstein together.

    And argument that says "Yeah he might be a pedo but he is our pedo" doesn't exactly answer the question to any degree of satisfaction
    Epstein's (former?) lawyer has asserted , which he has / has seen under client confidentiality and Judge-ordered non-disclosure. This is Alan Dershowitz, so clearly there are credibility questions.

    This one seems to have cut through.

    Given Trump's recorded and evidenced actions, and the crimes of which he has been convicted, heaven knows what he has done. Or some lawyers.

    Trump's obsession with Epstein, followed by his 'Epstein who? Why are you talking about him?' pivot is another strange facet.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    That in a nutshell is the problem with this godforsaken country. Not support for ‘diverse’ creators or inventors but the idea it is fund managers who need government support. Fund managers!
    Yup.

    I've been shown some emails, recently, relating to the Brit Volt.

    When published (going in a book someone is writing), they will fit the format of comedy best, I think.

    The politicians, civil servants and various quangocrats, all congratulating themselves in dealing with a Proper Company of "Expert Investors" without "Too much influence from techies"...

    The think about the NU10K is that it looks a bit more diverse than the Old10K. But this is quite superficial - there is no diversity of thought.

    Possibly Sunak, himself, is the perfect example of this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,246

    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    The point though is that they have not been circulating in MAGA circles.

    Trump hasn't been posting them on Truth Social

    Elon hasn't been pumping them on TwiX

    Joe Rogan hasn't been talking about them

    The only thing MAGA knew about Epstein (Pedo) is that trump was gonna release the files.

    And didn't.

    And now it seems they were best buds.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,615
    scampi25 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So voters don't think Nigel Farage "tells it as it is" then.

    Hats off voters.

    Of course Starmer never fibs - he's the typical good honest lawyer....
    "Whatabout"ism does not work when you are claiming to be the new force that will change things.

    Support for Farage is not going to survive much scrutiny, and it is fragile enough as it is.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,494

    And so it has actually happened.

    The front page of the Times is reporting a shortage of Good Brie.

    There's a shortage of Somerset Brie?
    https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-somerset-brie-160g
    Had some on friday - very nice.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,650

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    That in a nutshell is the problem with this godforsaken country. Not support for ‘diverse’ creators or inventors but the idea it is fund managers who need government support. Fund managers!
    Yup.

    I've been shown some emails, recently, relating to the Brit Volt.

    When published (going in a book someone is writing), they will fit the format of comedy best, I think.

    The politicians, civil servants and various quangocrats, all congratulating themselves in dealing with a Proper Company of "Expert Investors" without "Too much influence from techies"...

    The think about the NU10K is that it looks a bit more diverse than the Old10K. But this is quite superficial - there is no diversity of thought.

    Possibly Sunak, himself, is the perfect example of this.
    Given that British Volt was so obviously a con trick I could see it from 70 miles away I find it worrying that the Government didn’t pick up the utter lack of knowledge and customers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625
    eek said:

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    That in a nutshell is the problem with this godforsaken country. Not support for ‘diverse’ creators or inventors but the idea it is fund managers who need government support. Fund managers!
    Yup.

    I've been shown some emails, recently, relating to the Brit Volt.

    When published (going in a book someone is writing), they will fit the format of comedy best, I think.

    The politicians, civil servants and various quangocrats, all congratulating themselves in dealing with a Proper Company of "Expert Investors" without "Too much influence from techies"...

    The think about the NU10K is that it looks a bit more diverse than the Old10K. But this is quite superficial - there is no diversity of thought.

    Possibly Sunak, himself, is the perfect example of this.
    Given that British Volt was so obviously a con trick I could see it from 70 miles away I find it worrying that the Government didn’t pick up the utter lack of knowledge and customers.
    A few years ago, I was talking with a high flyer at the Cabinet Office about IT contracts. He explained to me that contracts using modern methodology were incompatible with "good government". Hence the massive, failed projects, using the Big Vendors. The point was not success or failure, but going things that aligned with what the system is used to.

    Brit Volt structured themselves to be 100% compatible with the UK permanent and political structures of government. They were absolutely ideal. The fact that (as you say) there was 0% chance of them producing batteries was irrelevant.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,494

    Want government investment? You’d better be diverse.

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/13/uk-launches-500-package-to-support-diverse-underrepresented-investors-and-founders/

    The British Business Bank, owned by the UK government, is creating a £500 million (around $674 million) economic package to help support diverse and underrepresented fund managers and founders in the country.

    That in a nutshell is the problem with this godforsaken country. Not support for ‘diverse’ creators or inventors but the idea it is fund managers who need government support. Fund managers!
    Yup.

    I've been shown some emails, recently, relating to the Brit Volt.

    When published (going in a book someone is writing), they will fit the format of comedy best, I think.

    The politicians, civil servants and various quangocrats, all congratulating themselves in dealing with a Proper Company of "Expert Investors" without "Too much influence from techies"...

    The think about the NU10K is that it looks a bit more diverse than the Old10K. But this is quite superficial - there is no diversity of thought.

    Possibly Sunak, himself, is the perfect example of this.
    Quite. Many of the NU10K loudly proclaim about how many people from diverse backgrounds they know as a badge of honour ("I'm not racist, I know and socialise with X, Y and Z"). But of course X, Y and Z, while being of ethnic origin, are also part of the NU10K - their mindset, life aspirations, hobbies etc is the same. They are typically not religious despite hailing from communities where religion is dominant.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,650
    edited 9:58AM
    Cicero said:

    scampi25 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So voters don't think Nigel Farage "tells it as it is" then.

    Hats off voters.

    Of course Starmer never fibs - he's the typical good honest lawyer....
    "Whatabout"ism does not work when you are claiming to be the new force that will change things.

    Support for Farage is not going to survive much scrutiny, and it is fragile enough as it is.
    I suspect that even under a lot of scrutiny Reform will sit at 15-20% because a lot of people don’t pay attention and will only see the shiny new wonderland he promises not grasping that they won’t be part of it nor the consequences of how the changes will impact them (see Trump voters discovering ICE is after them or Medicare is no more).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,661
    Scott_xP said:

    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    The point though is that they have not been circulating in MAGA circles.

    Trump hasn't been posting them on Truth Social

    Elon hasn't been pumping them on TwiX

    Joe Rogan hasn't been talking about them

    The only thing MAGA knew about Epstein (Pedo) is that trump was gonna release the files.

    And didn't.

    And now it seems they were best buds.
    If I've seen pictures without seeking them out, they were widely circulated, including on TwiX. Remember Donald Trump has been a celebrity in America far longer than he has been President, going back 30 or 40 years. Also, I'm fairly sure I've seen clips recently of Rogan talking about Trump and Epstein, although I do not follow his podcast.

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,246

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.

    So why will Trump not release them?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625
    edited 10:06AM
    a
    Scott_xP said:

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.

    So why will Trump not release them?
    Possible answers include blackmailing others with them. Note the very muted reaction to Trump policies at the top of US politics.

    They also include *publicly* linking Trump to Epstein in a humiliating way. Being humiliated is the ultimate Trump no-no.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,680

    Scott_xP said:

    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    The point though is that they have not been circulating in MAGA circles.

    Trump hasn't been posting them on Truth Social

    Elon hasn't been pumping them on TwiX

    Joe Rogan hasn't been talking about them

    The only thing MAGA knew about Epstein (Pedo) is that trump was gonna release the files.

    And didn't.

    And now it seems they were best buds.
    If I've seen pictures without seeking them out, they were widely circulated, including on TwiX. Remember Donald Trump has been a celebrity in America far longer than he has been President, going back 30 or 40 years. Also, I'm fairly sure I've seen clips recently of Rogan talking about Trump and Epstein, although I do not follow his podcast.

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.
    The chance the Democrats would not have used any Epstein evidence to bury Trump if it existed is zero given the lengths they went to to try and lock him up/stop him running
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,976
    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    The point though is that they have not been circulating in MAGA circles.

    Trump hasn't been posting them on Truth Social

    Elon hasn't been pumping them on TwiX

    Joe Rogan hasn't been talking about them

    The only thing MAGA knew about Epstein (Pedo) is that trump was gonna release the files.

    And didn't.

    And now it seems they were best buds.
    If I've seen pictures without seeking them out, they were widely circulated, including on TwiX. Remember Donald Trump has been a celebrity in America far longer than he has been President, going back 30 or 40 years. Also, I'm fairly sure I've seen clips recently of Rogan talking about Trump and Epstein, although I do not follow his podcast.

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.
    Trump's pecadillos are well documented. Take the sealed file from 2015 involving someone who shares a first name with the model Jordan and a surname with Britain's worst Prime Minister ever, by a country mile.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,625

    Scott_xP said:

    That is not right imo. For one thing, photos of Trump and Epstein have been circulating forever. Basically they were thick as thieves but fell out over a property deal some years back.

    The point though is that they have not been circulating in MAGA circles.

    Trump hasn't been posting them on Truth Social

    Elon hasn't been pumping them on TwiX

    Joe Rogan hasn't been talking about them

    The only thing MAGA knew about Epstein (Pedo) is that trump was gonna release the files.

    And didn't.

    And now it seems they were best buds.
    If I've seen pictures without seeking them out, they were widely circulated, including on TwiX. Remember Donald Trump has been a celebrity in America far longer than he has been President, going back 30 or 40 years. Also, I'm fairly sure I've seen clips recently of Rogan talking about Trump and Epstein, although I do not follow his podcast.

    So to repeat, imo the reason for the Epstein file being withheld is not a link to Trump.
    The chance the Democrats would not have used any Epstein evidence to bury Trump if it existed is zero given the lengths they went to to try and lock him up/stop him running
    Given who has been identified as going on the plane to Epstein's island retreat, it's pretty hard to find clean hands.

    Which was Epstein's intention, I think.
Sign In or Register to comment.