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Labour’s Liz Truss problem x 100 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,558
edited July 6 in General
Labour’s Liz Truss problem x 100 – politicalbetting.com

NEW: @BloombergUK Saturday readKeir Starmer is trapped between Labour and the bond market with nowhere to goIt could wreck his premiershipA person close to No10 says there are “100 Liz Trusses” in the party who don’t understand the public financeshttps://t.co/iWiUEuGC3J

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,472
    first
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,472
    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,348
    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,509
    The bond market fucked Trump, and will continue to do so, same with the U.K.

    When markets speak you need to listen

    Most Labour MPs just want to do nice things and have people stroke their egos.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,120
    Who needs bond markets when the Bank of England can just create money out of thin air?

    Or Quantitative Easing, as people trying to give the impression of cleverness call it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,648
    Except most Labour MPs want further tax rises to fund increased spending.

    Truss's problem was she cut taxes but not spending
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Reeves will no doubt convince herself the markets voting her least ridiculous creature in the menagerie this week means they are totally on board with her fiscals.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,648
    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,725
    edited July 6
    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,348

    Who needs bond markets when the Bank of England can just create money out of thin air?

    Or Quantitative Easing, as people trying to give the impression of cleverness call it.

    Didn't help Truss. Won't help Starmer.

    The bond markets have a big willy - and now know they can wave it around.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,023

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,566
    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,348
    edited July 6
    Anyway, having seen F1 yesterday, I can take solace that even at my age, I still have a possible career as an F1 driver ahead of me.

    Tosh. Fun, But tosh.

    (Although it was nice to hear a bit of Murray Walker in there.)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,431
    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,674
    edited July 6
    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,348

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,509
    edited July 6
    HYUFD said:

    Except most Labour MPs want further tax rises to fund increased spending.

    Truss's problem was she cut taxes but not spending

    The Public sector are back for more too.

    Junior Doctors demanding an insane amount, again, just one example.

    Last year was 1974 not 1997.

    We’re so screwed with this govt. They had a shit legacy and handled it badly.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,431
    Keir Starmer has literally zero authority left within his own Cabinet or his backbenchers, his premiership is hanging by a shoogle peg because he so loathed by his own Parliamentary party never mind the rest of the country right now. The markets didn't make Rachel Reeves safer after her distressing display at PMQs because they had any confidence in her, it just showed they were already very jittery at her being suddenly replaced by someone even weaker and even less competent who could only make the this Labour Government's current fiscal policy position even worse if that was even possible.

    Rachel Reeves position was already toast the night night before when Keir Starmer caved into that massive Labour welfare bill backbench rebellion that totally wrote off what ever little econocomic credibility this government was left clinging too in their own heads. Has a backbench rebellion ever left its own government in such a weakened state this quickly that its now so holed below the water line and will be unable to recover from this? Its anyone's guess how long Starmer or Reeves will be able to limp along in charge but humiliatingly without any authority before they throw in the towel?! Is Angela Rayner now the defacto leader of the Labour party and god help us the new PM in waiting and about to take us back to the 1970's like an episode of Life on Mars?



    Daily Mail - 'Tories warned Labour about Rachel Reeves' tears 17 minutes BEFORE PMQs started'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14878615/Tories-warned-Labour-Rachel-Reeves-tears-17-minutes-PMQs-started.html

    "Keir Starmer's claim that he did not know Rachel Reeves was in tears was branded 'nonsense' last night after the Tories insisted they gave Labour 'early warning' of her distress.

    Tory MPs revealed they alerted Labour whips to the fact that the Chancellor was weeping in the Commons to ensure she got help.

    They say that was at 11.43am – 17 minutes before Prime Minister's Questions when Ms Reeves had tears rolling down her cheeks as she sat next to an apparently oblivious Sir Keir.

    One Tory MP said: 'It simply beggars belief that with that much warning, the PM wasn't told."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,566
    Labour are 💀
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,633

    Anyway, having seen F1 yesterday, I can take solace that even at my age, I still have a possible career as an F1 driver ahead of me.

    Tosh. Fun, But tosh.

    (Although it was nice to hear a bit of Murray Walker in there.)

    Did you see the car number they gave Brad Pitt's character? It was the sort of subtleness you'd expect from me.

    They gave Brad Pitt's character the car number 7, yes Se7en.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,348
    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    Maybe Elon can ride to our rescue. Creating the British Party. We can take all his space tech when Trump closes him down. Surely all his Twitter sources telling us we need to end triple lock and indexing of other benefits will make huge sense and the voters will flock to his fleg.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,509
    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,063
    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    The only good advice to give an incoming chancellor is that they shouldn't start from here.

    That ought to give those who have set the political climate pause for thought, if not a good reason to apologise, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,633
    LMFAO 😂🤣

    Fluminense 🇧🇷 fan puts ketchup on his pizza and eats it in front of the Inter 🇮🇹 fans.

    This is the kind of banter we want to see 🤣


    https://x.com/ManagerTactical/status/1940835134800122073
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
    I don't see myself as the sort to hunt animals though. I'd be the 'does the books and has a secret disgusting pecadillo' bird
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,540
    Emma Raducanu proved she belongs in the top 10 in ‘one of Wimbledon’s best matches’
    ...
    Raducanu has cemented herself in a tier of women’s tennis that exists just below the very highest echelon, which contains Sabalenka, Coco Gauff, Iga Swiatek, Madison Keys, Zheng Qinwen and, less so now, Elena Rybakina.

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/tennis/emma-raducanu-top-10-wimbledon-best-matches-3789374

    As there is no political news beyond raking over last week's coals.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,838

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Just as it wasn't difficult to laugh at Sunak, Truss and Johnson but that's the nature of politics I suppose.

    The point, which to your credit you make, is for all the talk of "change" this time last year, there's been very little (I do think in some areas below the radar progress is being made such as NHS waiting times which will impact) and while I couldn't go as far as to call Starmer "Continuity Sunak", the fact remains Labour came into the office aware of the problems and seemingly bereft of solutions.

    By closing off options on VAT, NI and Income Tax, they are forced to do the "stealth" tax rises so beloved of the Conservatives such as freezing thresholds so more people come into higher rates of tax.

    That was politically stupid and the fact is with a majority of 170 or whatever, you can, indeed should, be radical and if that radicalism means short to medium term unpopularity for long term gain that's what you do.

    The four issues I'm watching are management of public finances, social care, reform of local Government finance and immigration and to be honest none of the parties, as far as I can tell, have any practical or coherent solutions to any of the concerns on these issues which explains as strong an anti-politician sentiment as I've ever seen. They aren't easy issues but they aren't intractable.

    I'm seeing this in my beloved world of horse racing which is already whingeing about a proposal to bring betting duty into line with remote gaming duty. Apparently this will "kill" horse racing (no, it won't) and it seems whenever you put a proposal out there, given the power of social media, those opposed are able to rapidly build a strong campaign. That's the nature of democracy and technology in cahoots and Governments seem unable or unwilling to withstand the social media storm.

    What happens then is those groups less able to respond get picked on and demonised and have to take the pain - is that how we really want our democracy to operate?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    She's quite waspish at the best of times, always looks annoyed and irritable
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,840
    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,725
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    The Falcon of course has a dark history in politics. After the socialist revolution was overthrown in Argentina, left wingers were rounded up in green Falcons by the junta to be taken to meet their maker.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,223

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
    Also the Bolton Paul Defiant; armament pointing backwards, disastrous in the daytime once the enemy knew what was up and reduced to lurking in the night hoping to bag a prize.
    And a load of useless to mediocre Faireys.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
    We had one in the 80s so must have been the 87 election. Absolute idiot made up parties with all sorts of excellent ideas like no more Saturday morning school, allowing girls into the school, someone stood for the Loonies but made them properly loony (walk backwards at lunchtime or be dunked in the Wensum etc)
    Anyway some spoddy kid won by a landslide standing for the SDP.
    Im still convinced the teaching staff rigged it
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,740

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    The Falcon of course has a dark history in politics. After the socialist revolution was overthrown in Argentina, left wingers were rounded up in green Falcons by the junta to be taken to meet their maker.
    And of course there's Charlie Falconer.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    She's one of the best Labour has, I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,023

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    Somewhat superfluous in this case.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,565
    stodge said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    J
    By closing off options on VAT, NI and Income Tax, they are forced to do the "stealth" tax rises so beloved of the Conservatives such as freezing thresholds so more people come into higher rates of tax.

    By closing off the options on VAT, NI and Income Tax Labour also told their MPs and most of the population that everything was fine and no tax rises were going to be necessary. Which is problematic because the 4p cut in NI was unfunded and needed to be reversed.

    But because everything is fine Labour now have the impossible task of telling people that no things are not fine. The black hole was Reeve's attempt to get out of the mess but she did it so badly that it's not helped at all..

    And it comes down to the point that Labour has done a reverse of calling wolf. They needed to do it before they were elected but because they haven't few people are listening now they are explaining the issues.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    edited July 6

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    She's one of the best Labour has, I think.
    Another one very likely to lose their seat next time unfortunately for her. Unless there is a turnaround in fortunes of course
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412
    The Farage supporting the BNP at Dulwich story would tally with the other reports of him singing certain "colourful" german songs on school trips.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    Somewhat superfluous in this case.
    Yes, that was the point.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,725
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,023
    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,439
    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    It would behoove (I felt the need to use that word, not used enough like “gruntled”) a political party such as the Tories to take a risk and start hammering out unpalatable truths now.

    It might make them take a short term hit but if they point out the nasty necessities, the reality, the pain that the country needs to go through, and very very clearly the effects if Labour don’t do these things then over the next four years, as the things they have prohesised come true then they should get a fair hearing at an election where they say “we told you this would happen, we have wanrned you what the medicine is and at least you will have honesty with the pain but a long term fix”.

    During the Truss/Sunak leadership election Rishi basically said if the gov does what Truss says then x,y and z will happen. The electorate voted for rainbows and unicorns and then exactly what Rishi said would happen happened.

    When it came to her ouster I think most Tories looked at his prediction and realised they should just give the gig to the person who was correct.

    Now he didn’t deliver great things but him and Hunt steadied the ship and put us on a path to slow recovery from a very bad place.

    So now is the time to hammer home brutal honesty by the Tories about triple lock, benefits, welfare, etc and reap the benefits in four years.*

    *I could be completely wrong.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,658

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
    We had one in the 80s so must have been the 87 election. Absolute idiot made up parties with all sorts of excellent ideas like no more Saturday morning school, allowing girls into the school, someone stood for the Loonies but made them properly loony (walk backwards at lunchtime or be dunked in the Wensum etc)
    Anyway some spoddy kid won by a landslide standing for the SDP.
    Im still convinced the teaching staff rigged it
    The election was STOLEN!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    Paddy O'Connell can be colourful and imaginative at times, I think, although not always the most probing interviewer.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    edited July 6
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    It would behoove (I felt the need to use that word, not used enough like “gruntled”) a political party such as the Tories to take a risk and start hammering out unpalatable truths now.

    It might make them take a short term hit but if they point out the nasty necessities, the reality, the pain that the country needs to go through, and very very clearly the effects if Labour don’t do these things then over the next four years, as the things they have prohesised come true then they should get a fair hearing at an election where they say “we told you this would happen, we have wanrned you what the medicine is and at least you will have honesty with the pain but a long term fix”.

    During the Truss/Sunak leadership election Rishi basically said if the gov does what Truss says then x,y and z will happen. The electorate voted for rainbows and unicorns and then exactly what Rishi said would happen happened.

    When it came to her ouster I think most Tories looked at his prediction and realised they should just give the gig to the person who was correct.

    Now he didn’t deliver great things but him and Hunt steadied the ship and put us on a path to slow recovery from a very bad place.

    So now is the time to hammer home brutal honesty by the Tories about triple lock, benefits, welfare, etc and reap the benefits in four years.*

    *I could be completely wrong.
    I think they'll go fairly hard on Welfare, immigration and 'stewardship of the economy' (they are already trying to present themselves as the ones with proper Welfare slashing ideas). I think they'll keep triple lock ending back as the 'jaw dropper' near the GE - 'forced to do it by Labour's mismanagement but look how serious we are about solving everything' and sugar coating it with something grey friendly that's less costly
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
    We had one in the 80s so must have been the 87 election. Absolute idiot made up parties with all sorts of excellent ideas like no more Saturday morning school, allowing girls into the school, someone stood for the Loonies but made them properly loony (walk backwards at lunchtime or be dunked in the Wensum etc)
    Anyway some spoddy kid won by a landslide standing for the SDP.
    Im still convinced the teaching staff rigged it
    The election was STOLEN!
    It was. And I have the ex mayor of Norwich holding a press conference outside a secondhand shop later with more details
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,169
    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,442
    So are we going to see any rain delays at Edgbaston today or will it all have passed before play is due to start?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
    We had one in the 80s so must have been the 87 election. Absolute idiot made up parties with all sorts of excellent ideas like no more Saturday morning school, allowing girls into the school, someone stood for the Loonies but made them properly loony (walk backwards at lunchtime or be dunked in the Wensum etc)
    Anyway some spoddy kid won by a landslide standing for the SDP.
    Im still convinced the teaching staff rigged it
    The election was STOLEN!
    It was. And I have the ex mayor of Norwich holding a press conference outside a secondhand shop later with more details
    This reminds me of Alan Partridge's time at Norwich while a student, according to his biography.

    Surely Norwish is a lot more fun than the press it gets. A dreaming cathedral city, the jewel of East Anglia.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1941781524346446238?s=19

    Rupert and the Tories once again on the same hymn sheet. Im increasingly convinced he will run as a Tory or on a joint Tory-Restore Britain ticket in Yarmouth
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I was talking to a man yesterday whose friend was one of Farage’s old classmates at Dulwich college. He said they’d held a mock election back in the early 80s, Farage was standing for the newly formed BNP, and they cancelled the election because it looked like he would win and there would have been a huge media blowback on the school.

    No idea of the veracity of the anecdote (and the dates only just fit) but it sounded interesting and demonstrates the man’s early interest in politics.
    We had one in the 80s so must have been the 87 election. Absolute idiot made up parties with all sorts of excellent ideas like no more Saturday morning school, allowing girls into the school, someone stood for the Loonies but made them properly loony (walk backwards at lunchtime or be dunked in the Wensum etc)
    Anyway some spoddy kid won by a landslide standing for the SDP.
    Im still convinced the teaching staff rigged it
    The election was STOLEN!
    It was. And I have the ex mayor of Norwich holding a press conference outside a secondhand shop later with more details
    This reminds me of Alan Partridge's time at Norwich while a student, according to his biography.

    Surely Norwish is a lot more fun than the press it gets. A dreaming cathedral city, the jewel of East Anglia.
    Norwich is magnificent. I genuinely adore my county
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    So are we going to see any rain delays at Edgbaston today or will it all have passed before play is due to start?

    Gimme a sec, ill pop into the future and have a look 😉
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,725

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    Paddy O'Connell can be colourful and imaginative at times, I think, although not always the most probing interviewer.
    I think he's dreadful, but he pops up everywhere. Broadcasting House on his watch is unlistenable and over the years he has popped up presenting anything and everything from Newsnight, Steve Wright in the Afternoon, Jeremy Vine on R2, Today, WATO, PM.

    I suppose he may be sh*te but his politics are more in keeping with BBC values than, Lineker, Vorderman, Maitlis, Sopel or Goodall.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,540

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
    Also the Bolton Paul Defiant; armament pointing backwards, disastrous in the daytime once the enemy knew what was up and reduced to lurking in the night hoping to bag a prize.
    And a load of useless to mediocre Faireys.
    Merlin engines also powered America's best fighter, the Mustang, which gave the allies aerial superiority then supremacy over Europe. The Mustang's original engines had been no good but the Merlin fixed that. One of the key features of the war was allied cooperation and cross-fertilisation in arms development and manufacture. The axis powers never had that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,023
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    It would behoove (I felt the need to use that word, not used enough like “gruntled”) a political party such as the Tories to take a risk and start hammering out unpalatable truths now.

    It might make them take a short term hit but if they point out the nasty necessities, the reality, the pain that the country needs to go through, and very very clearly the effects if Labour don’t do these things then over the next four years, as the things they have prohesised come true then they should get a fair hearing at an election where they say “we told you this would happen, we have wanrned you what the medicine is and at least you will have honesty with the pain but a long term fix”.

    During the Truss/Sunak leadership election Rishi basically said if the gov does what Truss says then x,y and z will happen. The electorate voted for rainbows and unicorns and then exactly what Rishi said would happen happened.

    When it came to her ouster I think most Tories looked at his prediction and realised they should just give the gig to the person who was correct.

    Now he didn’t deliver great things but him and Hunt steadied the ship and put us on a path to slow recovery from a very bad place.

    So now is the time to hammer home brutal honesty by the Tories about triple lock, benefits, welfare, etc and reap the benefits in four years.*

    *I could be completely wrong.
    I wouldn't vote Tory because of their current stance on social and environmental issues (though a return to Cameronism could reverse that), but such a stance on economic issues would be good. Mrs T in the 1979 GE did lay out that beating inflation out of the system would be tough. It was too, with high interest rates and a strong pound tipping a lot of manufacturing into massive redundancies. Modern Tories seem to Cosplay the legend rather than understand what she was doing.

    I too think last year was 1974 rather than 1997, but no sign of anyone on the opposition benches of capability. I don't like Farages politics, but his shambolic personality cult, with no credible lieutenants doesn't bode well for functioning government.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    So are we going to see any rain delays at Edgbaston today or will it all have passed before play is due to start?

    Gimme a sec, ill pop into the future and have a look 😉
    *returns, dripping*
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,108

    So are we going to see any rain delays at Edgbaston today or will it all have passed before play is due to start?

    Looks like there might be the odd shower of no consequence.

    In the past we might have been watching the light meter on the board telling us that it is too dark to play, but instead we will get to see England skittled by lunch.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    Paddy O'Connell can be colourful and imaginative at times, I think, although not always the most probing interviewer.
    I think he's dreadful, but he pops up everywhere. Broadcasting House on his watch is unlistenable and over the years he has popped up presenting anything and everything from Newsnight, Steve Wright in the Afternoon, Jeremy Vine on R2, Today, WATO, PM.

    I suppose he may be sh*te but his politics are more in keeping with BBC values than, Lineker, Vorderman, Maitlis, Sopel or Goodall.
    Can't agree there, unfortunately. I quite often enjoy his flight of fancy on BH, like the one minute of "slow radio" from a forest or canal, but I think he should do more creative-themed programmes, and possibly not so many current affairs-themed ones.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,838

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,540
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Advance UK have passed the 10,000 member mark but they are way off the 30,000 Habib (hes only registering them with the EC and putting his own money in at that point!) target and after this initial 'surge' i dont see where the 20,000 are coming from unless he can get some smaller parties like UKIP to fold into them.
    10,000 does make Advance the largest by membership outside the HoC (I think!) He's overtaken Galloway, UKIP, SDP etc
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,169

    What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!

    That's the problem

    "I was there!"

    "Did you see it?"

    "no..."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,658
    One FBI guy's experience of the 'new' FBI under Trump:

    "I recount those events more in sorrow than in anger. I love my country and our Constitution with a fervor that mere language will not allow me to articulate, and it pains me that my profession will no longer entail being their servant. As you know, my wife and I are expecting our first child this summer, and this decision will entail no small degree of hardship for us. But as our organization began to decay, I made a vow that I would comport myself in a manner that would allow me to look my son in the eye as I raised him."

    Goodbye to All That
    https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/goodbye-to-all-that
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,633
    edited July 6
    Because of the Online Safety Act articles from The Spectator will no longer be permitted to be linked on PB, as a formal complaint has been made to the police and I expect The Spectator will go the same way as Palestine Action.

    Thank you for your attention.





    https://x.com/tayab_ali_/status/1941625955321020787
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 340

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    The hate for Kuennsberg among left wing men is remarkable. I don't really pay her much attention but I've never seen a coherent explanation of what is so bad about her.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,088
    edited July 6
    About all the immigrants / boat people / those that look funny who claim benefits. It's a non-story but great for pushing certain buttons. Those subject to immigration control i.e. those who have volunteered their presence, are termed 'No Recourse to Public Funds'. There are not that many of them.

    https://www.nrpfnetwork.org.uk/information-and-resources/rights-and-entitlements/immigration-status-and-entitlements/who-has-no-recourse-to-public-funds

    I note that Mel Stride widened the definition on Kuenssberg to 'those with one foreign national' in the marriage/partnership. Well our dear departed QE II would fall into that category.

    Seems the Conservatives are back on the same Rwanda-type ground again. If only they had fixed the issue in the last 14 years.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,838
    edited July 6
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    It's difficult not to laugh at Starmer's difficulties, even though they encapsulate many of the UK's woes.

    Starmer is in the hot seat, but the truth is that neither major party was willing to be honest about the nations finances in the election a year ago.

    I don't expect them to be any more honest next GE either, and neither will Reform be. It seems you can't get elected by telling the truth.

    A party committed to ending the triple lock and indexing of other benefits, leaving it at the Chancellors discretion, and not making pledges over taxation would lose its deposit in every seat.
    It would behoove (I felt the need to use that word, not used enough like “gruntled”) a political party such as the Tories to take a risk and start hammering out unpalatable truths now.

    It might make them take a short term hit but if they point out the nasty necessities, the reality, the pain that the country needs to go through, and very very clearly the effects if Labour don’t do these things then over the next four years, as the things they have prohesised come true then they should get a fair hearing at an election where they say “we told you this would happen, we have wanrned you what the medicine is and at least you will have honesty with the pain but a long term fix”.

    During the Truss/Sunak leadership election Rishi basically said if the gov does what Truss says then x,y and z will happen. The electorate voted for rainbows and unicorns and then exactly what Rishi said would happen happened.

    When it came to her ouster I think most Tories looked at his prediction and realised they should just give the gig to the person who was correct.

    Now he didn’t deliver great things but him and Hunt steadied the ship and put us on a path to slow recovery from a very bad place.

    So now is the time to hammer home brutal honesty by the Tories about triple lock, benefits, welfare, etc and reap the benefits in four years.*

    *I could be completely wrong.
    The problem is the £300 billion of borrowing instigated by Sunak (which could and should have been recouped by a one-off post-Covid tax which might have taken some of the inflationary fizz out of the economy) wrecked the Conservative record for sound fiscal management just as surely as the Boriswave did for their rhetoric on immigration.

    How can you believe those who now claim to want to be "tough" on spending when they weren't when in office themselves?

    The other problem the Conservatives have (apart from Liz Truss who may be Reform's problem one day) is the old mantra of cutting spending and taxes doesn't play as well as it once did. The demands on spending, whether it be from an ageing population, an insecure world or simply paying back the debt already accumulated, are growing so the contributions we all make to balance the other side of the ledger need to increase whether it be via direct or indirect taxation, duty on fuel or wealth taxes.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    edited July 6

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    The hate for Kuennsberg among left wing men is remarkable. I don't really pay her much attention but I've never seen a coherent explanation of what is so bad about her.
    She was pictured sat with Boris on that park bench and that means she is a secret Tory. Its evidence of her bias in the absence of actual evidence
    Fiona Bruce is also apparently a secret Tory
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,540
    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Labour did not even hit the ground. After Liz Truss, it was deemed essential to the markets that any budget measures had to be signed off by the BoE, HMT and OBR. This meant Labour spinning its wheels over the summer while George Osborne's crack bean-counters produced their invariably wrong estimates.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,172
    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,838
    edited July 6

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    The BBC national treasure Laura Kuennsberg hates all Labour scumbags, she'll get the better of her by hook or by crook.

    And why has Kuennsberg added the half-witted Paddy O'Connell to her already unlistenable and moronic podcast?
    The hate for Kuennsberg among left wing men is remarkable. I don't really pay her much attention but I've never seen a coherent explanation of what is so bad about her.
    I have to say her expressions on the BBC GE night programme last year suggested she wasn't overly enamoured with how events were unfolding in contrast to how Cecil Parkinson took the 1997 results in good humour - for crying out loud, Laura, it's only an election...

    To be fair, she was the very model of restraint compared with how the Sky News Australia presenters reacted to the crushing of the LNP Coalition at their election. They were flailing around in their anger and despair.

    As to "left wing men" - who are these people? I've met a men who played on the left wing for his football club - does that count?

    This wouldn't have happened with Richard Dimbleby or Alvar Liddell...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,975
    HYUFD said:

    Nigel Farage says the legislation that introduced same sex marriage was wrong, though he would not reverse it
    "Nigel Farage labels same sex marriage law 'wrong' - JOE.co.uk" https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/nigel-farage-labels-same-sex-marriage-law-wrong-494689

    I tend to agree with Farage, not on the rightness of gay marriage, but that the legislation was framed in the wrong way and unnecessarily divisive.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    Its very odd. I mean there was absolutely no tightening in the polling whatsoever before the election was called. Obviously don't have access to their internal polling but between Dec 23 and May 24 the smallest lead was a single 11 with Deltapoll, Labour never dipped below 40 and the Tories never got to 30. It was as certain as its possible to be
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,292
    It's time to outline £100bn in spending cuts and tax rises, split 75% towards spending cuts with the majority coming from welfare and entitlements. If the government doesn't do this and continues to borrow like a drunken sailor we're heading for a bond vigilante strike and another bout of QE which will push inflation up and destroy people's disposable incomes.

    The only way out is to cut welfare spending and get people back into work. We can't afford to pay the lazy to sit at home doing nothing on benefits.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,838

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Labour did not even hit the ground. After Liz Truss, it was deemed essential to the markets that any budget measures had to be signed off by the BoE, HMT and OBR. This meant Labour spinning its wheels over the summer while George Osborne's crack bean-counters produced their invariably wrong estimates.
    Good point - we had the period between July and the Budget when little happened because of the OBR. At the time, I thought it odd but was prepared to accept taking the time to get it right was the best way.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,108
    edited July 6

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    I've been to the Open a few times.

    Obviously you don't get to "see" everything that happens but TV is a terrible medium for conveying the subtleties of a course and what actually faces each player.

    When it was at Hoylake I watched most of the field come through the first green (as played). This had a number of slopes on it and a nasty bunker but also a smallish flat area of not much more than 5 yards by 10. Not a few players struggled to be accurate enough in the very dry conditions and either disappeared into the sand or missed the green trying to go for the flag. Most still made par but not convincingly.

    A single player elected to hit an iron off the tee and from some distance back landed the ball perfectly in the exact centre of the flat area, and walked off with a simple par.

    That player? Tiger Woods, who of course went on to win.

    On the TV all the nuance was lost.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,540
    edited July 6

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
  • LDLFLDLF Posts: 163
    edited July 6
    The term 'vibes-driven' is frequently used, usually in reference to more charismatic politicians like Johnson and Farage, but I think it applies to Starmer as well.

    Prior to the election he and Reeves succeeded in presenting the image of competent administrators who can actually get things done. A year into government it seems that there doesn't seem to have been a plan. It is almost as though they genuinely believed that they would succeed simply by virtue of not being the Conservatives. Perhaps Sue Gray had a plan, but her career-long habit seems to have been not to write anything down, lest it be subject to FOI, so we shall probably never know.

    There are two notable exceptions, where the government seems to know what it it is doing: Wes Streeting has a plan for the NHS (I think this will pay off by the next election; it may already be moving in the right direction) and Ed Miliband seems to be getting done exactly what he wants in energy (I am less sure this will pay off, but he seems so messianically sure of himself that I feel there must be something to it). Both of these are plans that I think were broadly outlined before the election unlike the recent attempt at welfare reform.

    On central economic policy, it really was just 'vibes'. Sorry, I don't have it with me, Liz Truss ate my homework. But if they aren't going to raise any of the taxes that actually bring in revenue, they will have to cut spending. Saying 'growth' three times while clicking your heels together doesn't work.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412
    Laura Kuensberg can be quirkily surprising at times, but she does seem to have an issue at others with not being questioning or critical enough with government press releases.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    MRP goodness from More in Common

    A year from GE 2024 our MRP in @thetimes with @cazjwheeler finds Reform winners from Labour’s early stumbles. Tories/Lib Dems fight for third
    ➡️ REF UK 290 (+285)
    🌹 LAB 126 (- 285)
    🌳 CON 81 (-40)
    🔶 LIB DEM 73 (+1)
    🌍 GREEN 7 (+3)
    🟡 SNP 42 (+33)
    🟩 Plaid 4 (-)
    ⬜️ OTH 8 (+2)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    Implied vote shares
    Here is the implied vote share for major UK wide parties:

    ➡️ REF UK 28% (+13)
    🌹 LAB 22% (-13)
    🌳 CON 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 15% (+2)
    🌍 GREEN 8% (+1)

    N = 11,282 Dates: 13-30/6
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    Football, rugby, athletics are definitely better at the venue. Golf, cycling and F1 better on TV. Tennis not much difference. Cricket depends on preference for giant beer garden vs following the minutiae.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412
    LDLF said:

    The term 'vibes-driven' is frequently used, usually in reference to more charismatic politicians like Johnson and Farage, but I think it applies to Starmer as well.

    Prior to the election he and Reeves succeeded in presenting the image of competent administrators who can actually get things done. A year into government it seems that there doesn't seem to have been a plan. It is almost as though they genuinely believed that they would succeed simply by virtue of not being the Conservatives. Perhaps Sue Gray had a plan, but her career-long habit seems to have been not to write anything down, lest it be subject to FOI, so we shall probably never know.

    There are two notable exceptions, where the government seems to know what it it is doing: Wes Streeting has a plan for the NHS (I think this will pay off by the next election; it may already be moving in the right direction) and Ed Miliband seems to be getting done exactly what he wants in energy (I am less sure this will pay off, but he seems so messianically sure of himself that I feel there must be something to it). Both of these are plans that I think were broadly outlined before the election unlike the recent attempt at welfare reform.

    On central economic policy, it really was just 'vibes'. Sorry, I don't have it with me, Liz Truss ate my homework. But if they aren't going to raise any of the taxes that actually bring in revenue, they will have to cut spending. Saying 'growth' three times while clicking your heels together doesn't work.

    I'd agree with a critical caveat - if Ed Miliband was doing what he really planned, Labour would have a central mission statement, and a growth plan.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,292

    MRP goodness from More in Common

    A year from GE 2024 our MRP in @thetimes with @cazjwheeler finds Reform winners from Labour’s early stumbles. Tories/Lib Dems fight for third
    ➡️ REF UK 290 (+285)
    🌹 LAB 126 (- 285)
    🌳 CON 81 (-40)
    🔶 LIB DEM 73 (+1)
    🌍 GREEN 7 (+3)
    🟡 SNP 42 (+33)
    🟩 Plaid 4 (-)
    ⬜️ OTH 8 (+2)

    It only gets worse here for Labour IMO because they either have to break their pledge not to put up the main taxes or make big cuts to welfare spending and up to a million public sector job cuts. I wouldn't be surprised if Labour end up with fewer than 100 seats after 2029.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,223

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
    Also the Bolton Paul Defiant; armament pointing backwards, disastrous in the daytime once the enemy knew what was up and reduced to lurking in the night hoping to bag a prize.
    And a load of useless to mediocre Faireys.
    Merlin engines also powered America's best fighter, the Mustang, which gave the allies aerial superiority then supremacy over Europe. The Mustang's original engines had been no good but the Merlin fixed that. One of the key features of the war was allied cooperation and cross-fertilisation in arms development and manufacture. The axis powers never had that.
    They did sort of, not that it did them much good. Quite surprisingly Italy and Japan never developed a high performance inline engine, so German DB601/5s powered the Kawasaki Hien and various Italian fighters.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,335

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
    Labour has a gaping hole in economic policy because it (esp backbenchers) has no understanding of or interest in economics.

    It is the 'give away be nice cus that makes me feel good party'.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,108

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    Football, rugby, athletics are definitely better at the venue. Golf, cycling and F1 better on TV. Tennis not much difference. Cricket depends on preference for giant beer garden vs following the minutiae.
    Cycling is better in person in the sense that you can ride along the course in advance of the race, do some of the climbs traffic free and take part in what is essentially a legitimate critical mass.

    You can always watch the coverage afterwards.

    I miss the Tour de Yorkshire. No way would I contemplate riding up Sutton Bank if it was open to traffic...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,120

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    She's one of the best Labour has, I think.
    Another one very likely to lose their seat next time unfortunately for her. Unless there is a turnaround in fortunes of course
    The Prime Minister losing her seat? Surely not.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,439

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    Football, rugby, athletics are definitely better at the venue. Golf, cycling and F1 better on TV. Tennis not much difference. Cricket depends on preference for giant beer garden vs following the minutiae.
    Rugby definitely - you need the perfect balance of being low enough to the pitch to hear and feel the action (because when you actually hear the tackles and experience the pace the players move at it makes a massive difference to tv) but high enough to be able to see the whole field of play so you can see the spaces and the patterns IMHO.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,172

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
    Fair comment re Milliband and Phillipson; they have got on with things. However economics tends to dominate the news largely because economic policy affects, usually severely, everything else and Reeves especially doesn't seem to have quite known where she was going or what she wanted to do.
    And Starmer, as Leader of the Party, seems somewhat lost; I've argued before that when he went into politics after a reasonably distinguished career in the law, he apparently didn't expect to the Leader and doesn't really know what to do with the job.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    Football, rugby, athletics are definitely better at the venue. Golf, cycling and F1 better on TV. Tennis not much difference. Cricket depends on preference for giant beer garden vs following the minutiae.
    Cycling is better in person in the sense that you can ride along the course in advance of the race, do some of the climbs traffic free and take part in what is essentially a legitimate critical mass.

    You can always watch the coverage afterwards.

    I miss the Tour de Yorkshire. No way would I contemplate riding up Sutton Bank if it was open to traffic...
    If I tried to ride some of the TdF climbs I fear I would end up cycling downhill backwards......
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,447
    edited July 6

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Phillipson is a bit crabby and tetchy on LauraK this morning.

    Pressure. Pushing down on me.

    I'm not a fan, but she seems to be doing very well to me. Not sure she is saying anything but very calm, quick speaking, not a single 'um', corrected a mis-speak very quickly. Really good at thinking on her feet.

    She is a good speaker other than it is far too fast.
    She's one of the best Labour has, I think.
    Another one very likely to lose their seat next time unfortunately for her. Unless there is a turnaround in fortunes of course
    The Prime Minister losing her seat? Surely not.
    Shocking!
    Reform on 29% there last year, I think any (non ridiculous) result with Reform 20% plus nationally and its a Bridget too far for Phillipson
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794
    Stocky said:

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
    Labour has a gaping hole in economic policy because it (esp backbenchers) has no understanding of or interest in economics.

    It is the 'give away be nice cus that makes me feel good party'.
    Which party does understand economics?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,794

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
    Fair comment re Milliband and Phillipson; they have got on with things. However economics tends to dominate the news largely because economic policy affects, usually severely, everything else and Reeves especially doesn't seem to have quite known where she was going or what she wanted to do.
    And Starmer, as Leader of the Party, seems somewhat lost; I've argued before that when he went into politics after a reasonably distinguished career in the law, he apparently didn't expect to the Leader and doesn't really know what to do with the job.
    Essentially he represents not being Corbyn and not being the Tories. It is good start but clearly insufficient.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,169

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    FPT. Morris_Dancer said:

    betting Post:

    F1: backed Hulkenberg for points at 7.5 (boosted), with a hedge at 1.8.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/07/british-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html

    Given he starts 19th this might sound daft, and it might be. But he's scored from 16th, 13th, and 20th in recent races.

    Hi Morris Dancer, Son No1 and his girlfriend are having an amazing long weekend at Silverstone, they also ended up really enjoying the Fat Boy Slim concert last night before the big race today. I had never watched an F1 GP race before I met Fitaloon, but I quickly became a fan of the sport afterwards through him. We watched the Damon Hill documentary last night and I highly recommend it, the 1993/94 F1 seasons were the first time I managed to get to watch them all live along with Fitaloon which made this documentary all the more poignant because at the time I was busy having Sons No1 and 2. Previously my weekend shift work as a nurse meant I rarely got to watch most of the races live during the Ayrton Senna/Nigel Mansell era.

    I saw Mansell twice at Silverstone.
    First time in '83 when he came fourth to Prost in the Lotus. And later in his dominant championship year when the Williams drove into the distance.

    '83 was absolutely sweltering, the traffic was indescribable, and the atmosphere amazing.
    I went to Silverstone once. Must have been early/mid 90s

    I don't remember the year. I don't remember who won.

    My abiding memory is how much better it was on TV than live...

    The same is true of the Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield. In the pub with a pint beats the stadium, every time.
    Any sport is better watched at home where you see far more of the game, especially with modern multi-camera set-ups. What you get at the ground is atmosphere and the feeling that you too are part of unfolding events, a small footnote in history. I was there!
    Football, rugby, athletics are definitely better at the venue. Golf, cycling and F1 better on TV. Tennis not much difference. Cricket depends on preference for giant beer garden vs following the minutiae.
    And there is the other advantage of TV

    Today I can see the F1

    And the test match

    And Wimbledon

    And the Tour de France

    And the Womens' Euros

    In person I could see a very tiny part of 1 of them instead
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,975
    LDLF said:

    The term 'vibes-driven' is frequently used, usually in reference to more charismatic politicians like Johnson and Farage, but I think it applies to Starmer as well.

    Prior to the election he and Reeves succeeded in presenting the image of competent administrators who can actually get things done. A year into government it seems that there doesn't seem to have been a plan. It is almost as though they genuinely believed that they would succeed simply by virtue of not being the Conservatives. Perhaps Sue Gray had a plan, but her career-long habit seems to have been not to write anything down, lest it be subject to FOI, so we shall probably never know.

    There are two notable exceptions, where the government seems to know what it it is doing: Wes Streeting has a plan for the NHS (I think this will pay off by the next election; it may already be moving in the right direction) and Ed Miliband seems to be getting done exactly what he wants in energy (I am less sure this will pay off, but he seems so messianically sure of himself that I feel there must be something to it). Both of these are plans that I think were broadly outlined before the election unlike the recent attempt at welfare reform.

    On central economic policy, it really was just 'vibes'. Sorry, I don't have it with me, Liz Truss ate my homework. But if they aren't going to raise any of the taxes that actually bring in revenue, they will have to cut spending. Saying 'growth' three times while clicking your heels together doesn't work.

    I think they did have a plan - it was a political plan, consisting of a harsh phase entering Government, taking 'tough decisions', followed by pork barrel politics before the next election. It was a Gordon Brown sort of plan. There are a number of reasons why the plan has failed politically:
    1. The economy is too delicate to withstand play acting of this nature. Reeves and Starmer's talking down of the fiscal and economic situation did genuine harm to it.
    2. Their selected performative 'tough decisions' went badly. Particularly the WFA, but also the Farms Tax.
    3. They weren't actually being 'tough' - caving in to the train drivers but complaining about the black hole hasn't made sense.
    4. A combination of economical alarm, and political pressure has led to an immediate reversal, so they have had to fast forward the 'we can spend this because of our tough decisions'

    In relation to number 3, a far bigger and braver version of this strategy would have been to actually stick to Tory spending plans like in 1997. Actually try and take £50bn off welfare or however much it was.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,412
    Stocky said:

    stodge said:

    Labour 's pre- election absurdity of essentially saying "no new taxes on working people" has come back to bite them.

    Last week's word cloud on here where the only words visible were "Winter Fuel Allowance" demonstrate they can't go for the oldsters, and the utter catastrophe of a Labour Government appearing to take money off the most vulnerable in society looked disgusting. Selling a carefully crafted and focused package to stem the burgeoning welfare bill could have worked by politicians less inept than Starmer, Kendall and Reeves. We can't afford to put everyone on PIP if they occasionally feel sad.

    You're not wrong of course.

    The problem was coming into office (and there would have been discussions with senior civil servants in advance), it was clear everything that needed to be done couldn't be done on day one. Most would need complex legislation and take time to have an impact.

    Labour thought they needed to hit the ground running and instead they just hit the ground. In truth, the theory of taking winter fuel allowance away from wealthy pensioners wasn't a bad one but the way the policy was presented was about as bad as it could have been. Had Reeves said, for example, we'll take WFA away from higher rate taxpayers, yes, there'd have been grumbling particularly from those at the cliff edge of the thresholds but overall that would have been muted and probably forgotten.

    The big problem remains "the small boats" for which Starmer, like Badenoch and Farage, has no coherent, practical or affordable solution.
    Two excellent posts today from Mr S.
    Surely the Labour top brass (and the backroom policy wonks) must have felt that victory was at least possible by Christmas 2023 ..... and certainly by Easter 2024. We rather got the impression that the mindset was 'OMG we've won; what do we do now!"

    Rather like Reform in the County Councils now.

    If the LibDems had been in that position one could have understood it.
    I do not think that is correct. For a start, some Labour ministers did hit the ground running. Many might disagree with what Ed Miliband and Bridget Phillipson have done but the point is, they've done it. Likewise Angela Rayner. ETA and Wes Streeting.

    Where there has been a gaping hole is in economic policy, partly because of waiting for the OBR as posted earlier, but also because Reeves and Starmer are technocrats, apparently under the impression that Treasury civil servants already had a map pointing our way to the sunlit uplands but had been blocked by evil Tories for ideological reasons.

    There is also, and the Conservatives are the same here, no guiding principle. Just as Kemi cannot say what is the point of the Conservative Party, so Starmer is silent on what Labour is for.
    Labour has a gaping hole in economic policy because it (esp backbenchers) has no understanding of or interest in economics.

    It is the 'give away be nice cus that makes me feel good party'.
    It rather does because Starmer ran scared because Starmer ran scared of Sunak's economically illiterate politicking about Miliband's original growth plan, I would say instead.

    As soon as Sunak started the rhetoric about his green investment and growth plan equating to "Labour irresponsibility", it was first heavily cut back, and then ditched. This was Labour's central economic and policy error so far, and they still
    have time to rethink on it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,501
    edited July 6
    a

    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Last thread was a hoot, cannot wait to hear more from "THE FALCON" when he awakens from his stupour.

    And verily, See that His Sublime Grace LEONDAMUS, Lord Paramount of Camden, Warden of the Primrose Hill Borders, Commander of the Mighty Herd, He Who Rides The Unbridled Thunder, Surveyor of the PB Wastes and Whisperer to Kings, the Master known as Al-Saqr to the Desert Arabs, as Shahin to the Dusky Persians, and as THE FALCON to us all…

    is awake. And maybe having a coffee
    If you need a sidekick, I'm always happy to play The Tit
    You do yourself down. Try calling yourself "The Merlin". Our smallest hawk. But damn it, good enough to power the Spitfire...
    Also the Bolton Paul Defiant; armament pointing backwards, disastrous in the daytime once the enemy knew what was up and reduced to lurking in the night hoping to bag a prize.
    And a load of useless to mediocre Faireys.
    Merlin engines also powered America's best fighter, the Mustang, which gave the allies aerial superiority then supremacy over Europe. The Mustang's original engines had been no good but the Merlin fixed that. One of the key features of the war was allied cooperation and cross-fertilisation in arms development and manufacture. The axis powers never had that.
    The Allison V-1710 was actually more powerful than the Merlin. Up to 15,000 feet Mustangs equipped with it were actually a bit faster.

    Above 15k, the issue was the supercharger. The design of the Mustang hadn’t included a turbocharger, mostly for cost/simplicity reasons. The USAF preferred turbochargers for high altitude work.

    So the Alison was left with a single stage supercharger in the Mustang. Hence the change to the Merlin with a two stage supercharger.

    IIRC the RAF used Alison engines Mustangs until the end of the war, for low level ground attack.
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