Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Ipsos brings bad news for Starmer – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,534
edited June 23 in General
Ipsos brings bad news for Starmer – politicalbetting.com

?NEW Keir Starmer's satisfaction has fallen to -54 with @ipsosintheuk.bsky.social ?That's worse than scores EVER achieved by Johnson, May, Cameron or Blair ?Hitting this low is usually terminal for a PM e.g. Sunak, Truss and Thatcher were all shortly out of office

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    edited June 23
    It does ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,499
    Last like TRUSS
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    I mean, it's a lousy poll for him, but is that really news anymore ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    Pant's removed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,432
    Nigelb said:

    I mean, it's a lousy poll for him, but is that really news anymore ?

    It's from the gold standard of leader ratings.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    Interesting thread posing a counterfactual for the strike on Fordow.

    Why am I so unimpressed by these strikes? Israel and the US have failed to target significant elements of Iran's nuclear materials and production infrastructure. RISING LION and MIDNIGHT HAMMER are tactically brilliant, but may turn out to be strategic failures. 🧵 1/17
    https://x.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1936955686174466551
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    It can only get better after the immensely statesmanlike way he has allowed his government to not know if they support the attack on Irans nuclear facilities or its legality and his forthcoming assault on the disabled.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,258
    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,656
    sub Truss !!!
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    edited June 23
    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,036
    Nigelb said:

    Pant's removed.

    4th wicket went down 430 in India's first innings.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    edited June 23

    Nigelb said:

    Pant's removed.

    4th wicket went down 430 in India's first innings.
    Lightning rarely strikes twice.

    And Rahul looks extremely well set.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,444
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting thread posing a counterfactual for the strike on Fordow.

    Why am I so unimpressed by these strikes? Israel and the US have failed to target significant elements of Iran's nuclear materials and production infrastructure. RISING LION and MIDNIGHT HAMMER are tactically brilliant, but may turn out to be strategic failures. 🧵 1/17
    https://x.com/ArmsControlWonk/status/1936955686174466551

    He's not the only expert explaining about the horse and stable door issue.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    Pulpstar said:

    sub Truss !!!

    I demand sub 20% polling for Labour to hammer it home
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535

    Nigelb said:

    I mean, it's a lousy poll for him, but is that really news anymore ?

    It's from the gold standard of leader ratings.
    Oh, it's noteworthy.
    Just unsurprising.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,535
    This is all too believable.

    ..NYT has more confirmation that Trump's decision to bomb Iran was motivated in large part by the way the Israeli strikes were "playing" on Fox News, which drove him to want some credit for it
    https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1937099961373483269
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,656

    Nigelb said:

    Pant's removed.

    4th wicket went down 430 in India's first innings.
    England objectively have a much better batting tail than India.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,727
    These low ratings basically reflect that Labour voters aren't very happy. He's never going to get Tories saying he has done a good job.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,254
    rkrkrk said:

    These low ratings basically reflect that Labour voters aren't very happy. He's never going to get Tories saying he has done a good job.

    But there aren't many people planning on going Tory, either.

    Trying to normalise the fact that ever smaller numbers want to vote for the "major" parties isn't going to work.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,930
    edited June 23
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,399
    FPT:

    Cookie said:

    We were discussing whether you would rather live in Manchester or Singapore yesterday. I've just unearthed this list of 'most liveable cities': Manchester ranks 46th, Singapore 49th and London 53rd.

    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    That said, I think this is last year's list: Manchester has apparently slipped a few places this year 'because of the Southport riots' down to about 53rd, though it is still the top ranking UK city (I can't find the full list for this year so I don't know about Singapore).

    These lists are always pretty questionable - only about 160 cities in the world - so most Brits will look in vain for their home city - and measured by some quite blunt metrics. But I think it at least shows that the question is up for debate.
    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    What does stability mean?
    My understanding is it's something like 'do you need to worry about the society still functioning as you expect in a year's time?' High scores if you live in Copenhagen or Sydney, low if you live in Moscow or Tehran. I think it was on this that Manchester has been docked a few points for the Southport riots.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,174
    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,823
    rkrkrk said:

    These low ratings basically reflect that Labour voters aren't very happy. He's never going to get Tories saying he has done a good job.

    I expected better from Starmer, much better, and I voted for Blair twice but Starmer is no Blair

    Indeed the more you see him the more out of depth he appears

    He may have 4 years to turn it round, but at the same become worse

    Both Starmer and Reeves have really disappointed
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited June 23
    I would also add, look at how we tax small and medium businesses. Faced with Mega Corp PLC being able to dodgy corporate taxation, government have increasingly resorted to turn-over taxes. This is a reasonable approach for your Amazon's of the world, but terrible for people who employ 10s or 100s of people with a business that is B2C.

    There has to be a better way of ensuring that Mega Corp Plc still pays fair share without hammering British small businesses, which stops them ever being able to grow. Also, I would look at company disposal, too many British companies who do make a go of it, sell ASAP when they reach a certain size. This doesn't happen so much in Europe or the US, particularly in the US, they more often than not try and then go massive. The UK weighing by company size is masses of 5-100 people businesses and good at attracting Mega Corp, the number of UK businesses* that employ 1000s is very small proportion compared to say Germany.

    * which aren't just a subsidiary of a massive international business.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,960

    rkrkrk said:

    These low ratings basically reflect that Labour voters aren't very happy. He's never going to get Tories saying he has done a good job.

    But there aren't many people planning on going Tory, either.

    Trying to normalise the fact that ever smaller numbers want to vote for the "major" parties isn't going to work.
    The next Ipsos poll might show Reform advancing on 34%.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,930
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    We're taxed enough already.

    Cutting expenditure and growing the economy will give more wins.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @GregTSargent

    Amazing. NYT has more confirmation that Trump's decision to bomb Iran was motivated in large part by the way the Israeli strikes were "playing" on Fox News, which drove him to want some credit for it

    https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1937099961373483269
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,960
    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    Perhaps he loves campaigning, but the prospect of actually becoming PM dismays him.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,843

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
    It seems as though the one who is most hungry for power is Zia Yusuf...
  • isamisam Posts: 42,040
    edited June 23
    Well I was sure that Sir Keir’s lack of personality would be an insuperable barrier to him becoming PM in a campaign against a charismatic opponent such as Boris. As it happened he didn’t have to face one, and the ming vase/don’t be a Tory tactic was enough. He did manage to crater 10–15 points during the campaign though.

    I don’t think my assertion that him being a wet fish would never win over the public was far wrong, despite Labour winning the GE. He got fewer votes than bad Corbyn after all, so it’s not surprising that he’s proven to be extremely unpopular and unable to sell his vision once in power

    John Rentoul wrote about this at the weekend. Starmer is claiming that Labour’s inability to tell “our story as well as we should” is his biggest failure, Rentoul says it’s just that he has made bad decisions. As ever it’s a bit of both; someone with a sunnier disposition may have been able to sell bad news more effectively. It would be interesting to see the latest IPSOS personality ratings

    Rentoul’s article

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-accidentally-admits-his-first-year-has-been-a-failure-b2774402.html
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Cookie said:

    We were discussing whether you would rather live in Manchester or Singapore yesterday. I've just unearthed this list of 'most liveable cities': Manchester ranks 46th, Singapore 49th and London 53rd.

    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    That said, I think this is last year's list: Manchester has apparently slipped a few places this year 'because of the Southport riots' down to about 53rd, though it is still the top ranking UK city (I can't find the full list for this year so I don't know about Singapore).

    These lists are always pretty questionable - only about 160 cities in the world - so most Brits will look in vain for their home city - and measured by some quite blunt metrics. But I think it at least shows that the question is up for debate.
    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    What does stability mean?
    My understanding is it's something like 'do you need to worry about the society still functioning as you expect in a year's time?' High scores if you live in Copenhagen or Sydney, low if you live in Moscow or Tehran. I think it was on this that Manchester has been docked a few points for the Southport riots.
    I think thats a ridiculous measure if London is coming in at 70. In what way is society not going to function as you expect next year? Unless you are asking the Gazette's knapper in chief, of course.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,735
    edited June 23
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    These low ratings basically reflect that Labour voters aren't very happy. He's never going to get Tories saying he has done a good job.

    But there aren't many people planning on going Tory, either.

    Trying to normalise the fact that ever smaller numbers want to vote for the "major" parties isn't going to work.
    The next Ipsos poll might show Reform advancing on 34%.
    Ipsos shows 9 and 10 out of 10 certainty to vote voters, it skews heavily to mid term dissatisfaction
    (It had the famous 28 point Cameron/Con lead over Labour in 2008, the peak of Cameroonism)
    Thus it should show a pretty good Reform return. However given how many normal non voters they attract, how solid is that number? Brexit '16 hard or is it soft?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    The current cliff edges are absolutely ridiculous. I just don't believe if they got rid of the £100k one for instance it wouldn't instantly result in more tax income, because currently you need to go to about £130k to make it worthwhile, so anybody with half a brain unless they are being offered that large a leap in salary will just say few more days holiday please etc.

    There are also big disincentives at £50-60k, particularly if you are single earner in the household.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @benrileysmith

    Breaking: An RAF plane has flown 63 Brits and their dependents out of Israel. First UK evacuation flight since conflict with Iran broke out this month.

    Passengers taken to Cyprus then back home tonight. More flights expected. Around 4,000 Brits in Israel, c. 1,000 want to go.

    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1937163120507781560
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    edited June 23

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
    It seems as though the one who is most hungry for power is Zia Yusuf...
    Tice likes his pool in Dubai and Pochin is too new. McMurdock has baggage and Anderson is due to join Mebyon Kernow next week. Rupert Lowe would perhaps have been a good fit but Yusuf saw him off.........
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,805

    Pulpstar said:

    sub Truss !!!

    I demand sub 20% polling for Labour to hammer it home
    You won't have long to wait I don't think.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @hoffman_noa

    From the pictures it looks like the UK's Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis is among the dozens of Brits on board an RAF evacuation flight from Tel Aviv to Cyprus
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited June 23
    Reshuffle and another relaunch focusing on British Pints for British Workers in British Jobs? Or have the already ditched that slogan, because it went too far too fast?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,040
    edited June 23
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    Perhaps he loves campaigning, but the prospect of actually becoming PM dismays him.
    I reckon that’s not far off the truth. He says he wants to change things rather than just be in power. It’s likely he’s never had any ambition to be PM, and probably doesn’t fancy it much now

    I have been a UKIP member, Leave, Brexit and Reform voter, but in all honesty I wanted them to change the way the big two dealt with issues rather than actually be the govt. It does look like that’s not enough though, and it does need Reform to step up. I’d prefer a merger with like minded Tories I think
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848

    Pulpstar said:

    sub Truss !!!

    I demand sub 20% polling for Labour to hammer it home
    You won't have long to wait I don't think.
    They're pushing their lowest ever (18) at the same time the Tories are too
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848

    Reshuffle and another relaunch focusing on British Pints for British Workers in British Jobs? Or have the already ditched that slogan, because it went too far too fast?

    Reshuffle is apparently on hold
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    David Lammy urges UK nationals in Qatar to “shelter in place until further notice” out of “an abundance of caution” after the US issued the same alert.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,769
    edited June 23
    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    Considering his life style he seems quite fit (see the jungle). Having said that you are right. I am hopeless on ages, but my wife, who isn't, thought he was older than me. I am 10 years older than him.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,688
    I doubt very much if the figures mean much, except to say what we knew, that all politicians are in the doghouse except that 30%+ support the populist, the rest don't like the current state of reality very much but most people prefer to be able to criticise a sane and stable government rather than a bunch of lunatics.

    It would mean more if Starmer were nowhere and the Tories in some stellar position. We need to wait quite a time for that one.

    Starmer/Labour should relax. They can't run faster than the bear but they, and Reform can run faster than the Tories. Labour will win a Lab v Reform contest.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @Osinttechnical

    A number of major airlines have canceled flights to Persian Gulf and Middle East countries over the last 48 hours.

    Iberia, British Airways, Finnair, American Airlines, Air Canada, United Airlines, and Singapore Airlines have canceled flights into one or more airports.

    Canceled:
    Iberia IB391 to Doha
    British Airways BA123 and BA127 to Doha
    British Airways BA105 to Dubai
    American Airlines AA120 to Doha
    Air Canada AC56 to Dubai
    United Airlines UA164 to Dubai
    Singapore Airlines SQ494 to Dubai

    @mitchprothero

    between this and the bizarre 'americans in doha should shelter in place' without an actual announcement of a specific, credible threat (as is the custom of our people), I sorta wonder if the Trump admin knows something they don't want to tell us
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    Perhaps he loves campaigning, but the prospect of actually becoming PM dismays him.
    I reckon that’s not far off the truth. He says he wants to change things rather than just be in power. It’s likely he’s never had any ambition to be PM, and probably doesn’t fancy it much now

    I have been a UKIP member, Leave, Brexit and Reform voter, but in all honesty I wanted them to change the way the big two dealt with issues rather than actually be the govt. It does look like that’s not enough though, and it does need Reform to step up. I’d prefer a merger with like minded Tories I think
    In many ways we saw this on the night of the referendum when he thought Leave had lost - keep campaigning etc. In some ways the ideological purity of your position without the compromises of power is a happy place to be. See also the Lib Dems up to 2010.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,399

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Cookie said:

    We were discussing whether you would rather live in Manchester or Singapore yesterday. I've just unearthed this list of 'most liveable cities': Manchester ranks 46th, Singapore 49th and London 53rd.

    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    That said, I think this is last year's list: Manchester has apparently slipped a few places this year 'because of the Southport riots' down to about 53rd, though it is still the top ranking UK city (I can't find the full list for this year so I don't know about Singapore).

    These lists are always pretty questionable - only about 160 cities in the world - so most Brits will look in vain for their home city - and measured by some quite blunt metrics. But I think it at least shows that the question is up for debate.
    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    What does stability mean?
    My understanding is it's something like 'do you need to worry about the society still functioning as you expect in a year's time?' High scores if you live in Copenhagen or Sydney, low if you live in Moscow or Tehran. I think it was on this that Manchester has been docked a few points for the Southport riots.
    I think thats a ridiculous measure if London is coming in at 70. In what way is society not going to function as you expect next year? Unless you are asking the Gazette's knapper in chief, of course.
    That's not the only measure though.
    It's not my assessment, I just thought it pertinent to yesterday's discussion.
    This is the article. Though it's not that enlightening.
    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/the-vibrant-northern-city-that-is-officially-a-better-place-to-live-than-london-061925
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,805

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
    Where do people get this stuff from?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @annmarie

    Iran’s armed forces Chief of Staff Abdolrahim Mousavi says after the US attack, the army is “now free to take any action” against US interests and military, per state-run IRIB agency.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,219
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    Considering his life style he seems quite fit (see the jungle). Having said that you are right. I am hopeless on ages, but my wife, who isn't, thought he was older than me. I am 10 years older than him.
    She thought he was 72+?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
    Cut the jobs first then argue for more taxes. The public sector needs to fund itself with productivity gains, cutting salaried 1m roles, cutting consultants and barring agency staff must be the starting point.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-funding-care-crisis-zg0n6clv0

    "It showed that the NHS struggled to convert funding into more resources such as doctors, nurses, hospital beds or scanners, with two thirds of its budget swallowed up by staffing costs, including pensions."

    "The TaxPayers’ Alliance report said the UK ranked third highest out of the 13 countries in terms of how much is spent on health as a percentage of GDP. However, it only ranked 12th by the metric of converting money into resources that can help treat patients."

    Keep kidding yourself that the public sector hasn't got any jobs to cut, this just in the NHS. In other departments, local government etc... it will be just as bad. The public sector is likely in a position where it has negative incremental productivity per new employee in that output per worker hired is lower than the inefficiency/complexity they add.

    You are part of the system, or were for a long time, and you can't see how broken it is. As part of that establishment your instinct is to protect it from outsiders like me who suggest it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt, yet I will keep going back to the same point which you have never been able to answer. Public sector employment is higher than ever, public spending is higher than ever and yet public sector output hasn't grown in 5 years. The system is simply eating up resources and giving us nothing for it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Cookie said:

    We were discussing whether you would rather live in Manchester or Singapore yesterday. I've just unearthed this list of 'most liveable cities': Manchester ranks 46th, Singapore 49th and London 53rd.

    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    That said, I think this is last year's list: Manchester has apparently slipped a few places this year 'because of the Southport riots' down to about 53rd, though it is still the top ranking UK city (I can't find the full list for this year so I don't know about Singapore).

    These lists are always pretty questionable - only about 160 cities in the world - so most Brits will look in vain for their home city - and measured by some quite blunt metrics. But I think it at least shows that the question is up for debate.
    https://media.heraldsun.com.au/files/liveability.pdf

    What does stability mean?
    My understanding is it's something like 'do you need to worry about the society still functioning as you expect in a year's time?' High scores if you live in Copenhagen or Sydney, low if you live in Moscow or Tehran. I think it was on this that Manchester has been docked a few points for the Southport riots.
    I think thats a ridiculous measure if London is coming in at 70. In what way is society not going to function as you expect next year? Unless you are asking the Gazette's knapper in chief, of course.
    That's not the only measure though.
    It's not my assessment, I just thought it pertinent to yesterday's discussion.
    This is the article. Though it's not that enlightening.
    https://www.timeout.com/uk/news/the-vibrant-northern-city-that-is-officially-a-better-place-to-live-than-london-061925
    It may not be the only measure but it illustrates the futility of these kind of exercises. Its not unlike University Rankings (e.g. in the Times). Lots of subjective measures.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,735

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,219
    Starmer most likely won't fight the next election, so a lot of this speculation is moot.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
    Cut the jobs first then argue for more taxes. The public sector needs to fund itself with productivity gains, cutting salaried 1m roles, cutting consultants and barring agency staff must be the starting point.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-funding-care-crisis-zg0n6clv0

    "It showed that the NHS struggled to convert funding into more resources such as doctors, nurses, hospital beds or scanners, with two thirds of its budget swallowed up by staffing costs, including pensions."

    "The TaxPayers’ Alliance report said the UK ranked third highest out of the 13 countries in terms of how much is spent on health as a percentage of GDP. However, it only ranked 12th by the metric of converting money into resources that can help treat patients."

    Keep kidding yourself that the public sector hasn't got any jobs to cut, this just in the NHS. In other departments, local government etc... it will be just as bad. The public sector is likely in a position where it has negative incremental productivity per new employee in that output per worker hired is lower than the inefficiency/complexity they add.

    You are part of the system, or were for a long time, and you can't see how broken it is. As part of that establishment your instinct is to protect it from outsiders like me who suggest it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt, yet I will keep going back to the same point which you have never been able to answer. Public sector employment is higher than ever, public spending is higher than ever and yet public sector output hasn't grown in 5 years. The system is simply eating up resources and giving us nothing for it.
    How do you define the output?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,027
    Nigelb said:

    This is all too believable.

    ..NYT has more confirmation that Trump's decision to bomb Iran was motivated in large part by the way the Israeli strikes were "playing" on Fox News, which drove him to want some credit for it
    https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1937099961373483269

    Let's hope he hasn't seen 'Triumph des Willens'.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
    Cut the jobs first then argue for more taxes. The public sector needs to fund itself with productivity gains, cutting salaried 1m roles, cutting consultants and barring agency staff must be the starting point.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-funding-care-crisis-zg0n6clv0

    "It showed that the NHS struggled to convert funding into more resources such as doctors, nurses, hospital beds or scanners, with two thirds of its budget swallowed up by staffing costs, including pensions."

    "The TaxPayers’ Alliance report said the UK ranked third highest out of the 13 countries in terms of how much is spent on health as a percentage of GDP. However, it only ranked 12th by the metric of converting money into resources that can help treat patients."

    Keep kidding yourself that the public sector hasn't got any jobs to cut, this just in the NHS. In other departments, local government etc... it will be just as bad. The public sector is likely in a position where it has negative incremental productivity per new employee in that output per worker hired is lower than the inefficiency/complexity they add.

    You are part of the system, or were for a long time, and you can't see how broken it is. As part of that establishment your instinct is to protect it from outsiders like me who suggest it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt, yet I will keep going back to the same point which you have never been able to answer. Public sector employment is higher than ever, public spending is higher than ever and yet public sector output hasn't grown in 5 years. The system is simply eating up resources and giving us nothing for it.
    How do you define the output?
    Profits to the people who own and found 55 Tufton Street
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206
    stodge said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
    That last sentence is code for "so me and my other Lib Dem friends can object to all of the development we can and block any new houses or infrastructure". It's so transparent sometimes, you didn't even need to bother trying to hide it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,735
    edited June 23
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
    Cut the jobs first then argue for more taxes. The public sector needs to fund itself with productivity gains, cutting salaried 1m roles, cutting consultants and barring agency staff must be the starting point.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-funding-care-crisis-zg0n6clv0

    "It showed that the NHS struggled to convert funding into more resources such as doctors, nurses, hospital beds or scanners, with two thirds of its budget swallowed up by staffing costs, including pensions."

    "The TaxPayers’ Alliance report said the UK ranked third highest out of the 13 countries in terms of how much is spent on health as a percentage of GDP. However, it only ranked 12th by the metric of converting money into resources that can help treat patients."

    Keep kidding yourself that the public sector hasn't got any jobs to cut, this just in the NHS. In other departments, local government etc... it will be just as bad. The public sector is likely in a position where it has negative incremental productivity per new employee in that output per worker hired is lower than the inefficiency/complexity they add.

    You are part of the system, or were for a long time, and you can't see how broken it is. As part of that establishment your instinct is to protect it from outsiders like me who suggest it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt, yet I will keep going back to the same point which you have never been able to answer. Public sector employment is higher than ever, public spending is higher than ever and yet public sector output hasn't grown in 5 years. The system is simply eating up resources and giving us nothing for it.
    No, I can and the use of consultants or Interim staff to fill highly paid posts is a big problem and when you see £1000 and £1200 per day being lashed out, you ask questions.

    The reason Consultants or Interims (another way to swerve the recruitment process) are employed is because the level of specialist knowledge and experience perceived to be required just doesn't exist among the on-site staff so it has to be bought in. It's a lazy way of dealing with a problem of recruitment and retention.

    If you hire new staff at the salaries local councils can afford to offer (as distinct from a private organisation like yours which can presumably spend whatever it likes to get whoever they want), you won't get top level quality staff. The younger able staff do their time in the council, get their qualifications and experience and then go on into the private sector who can often pay double what the local council can.

    As for levels of "public sector employment", Covid caused an increase which has never been reversed but that's not been seen in local Government but perhaps more in the NHS about which I know much less.

    As for "output", the mantra frequently was doing more with less but that's not how it worked and we ended up doing less with less as individuals were overworked and given unrealistic deadlines. The technology wasn't the issue - in any case, how do you measure the output of a child social worker - by the number of cases?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,920
    edited June 23

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
    It seems as though the one who is most hungry for power is Zia Yusuf...
    Zia Yusuf has some problems with parts of the support coalition.

    They really are quite obsessed about Muslims.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,746
    dixiedean said:

    Starmer most likely won't fight the next election, so a lot of this speculation is moot.

    Does he go at a time of his own choosing?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited June 23
    WinViz currently gives England a 15% chance of victory.

    I think that should be more like 1.5%.....requiring yet another innings for ages from Root or Stokes.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
    That last sentence is code for "so me and my other Lib Dem friends can object to all of the development we can and block any new houses or infrastructure". It's so transparent sometimes, you didn't even need to bother trying to hide it.
    The problem I have with planning reform is that it’s a great idea but most people are grade A idiots (so some object to things that will improve their lives, and others devise schemes that could be so much better if they take a tiny bit more care and weren’t seeking every single penny).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,434
    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,735
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
    That last sentence is code for "so me and my other Lib Dem friends can object to all of the development we can and block any new houses or infrastructure". It's so transparent sometimes, you didn't even need to bother trying to hide it.
    I think you need to invest in a new translation matrix as your code machine is a little out of date (somewhere in the 1980s) and faulty.

    Developers who work with communities in pre-submission meetings usually get their applications through with little or no fuss. It's those who drive a coach and horses through densities agreed in local plans who run into problems with the Councils themselves (let alone the public) and have to waste time and money appealing to the Government.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    Eliminate 1m public sector roles over the next two years. Invest in automation and move away from custom built software to SaaS platforms.
    And yet we want to spend more money on defence and have to spend more on health services for an ageing population. Even if you can find 1 million "public sector roles" (presumably you exclude the armed forces and Police from that so we're looking at "administrators" in central and local Government and the NHS.), that won't impact too much on central Government finance.

    A lot of what these so-called administrators do is providing information for elected officials (councillors and MPs) as well as monitoring for central Government and other bodies.

    It's surely time for land value taxation and a complete overhaul of the Council Tax system as part of a comprehensive review of how local Government is funded alongside the implementation of a social care funding model.
    Cut the jobs first then argue for more taxes. The public sector needs to fund itself with productivity gains, cutting salaried 1m roles, cutting consultants and barring agency staff must be the starting point.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-funding-care-crisis-zg0n6clv0

    "It showed that the NHS struggled to convert funding into more resources such as doctors, nurses, hospital beds or scanners, with two thirds of its budget swallowed up by staffing costs, including pensions."

    "The TaxPayers’ Alliance report said the UK ranked third highest out of the 13 countries in terms of how much is spent on health as a percentage of GDP. However, it only ranked 12th by the metric of converting money into resources that can help treat patients."

    Keep kidding yourself that the public sector hasn't got any jobs to cut, this just in the NHS. In other departments, local government etc... it will be just as bad. The public sector is likely in a position where it has negative incremental productivity per new employee in that output per worker hired is lower than the inefficiency/complexity they add.

    You are part of the system, or were for a long time, and you can't see how broken it is. As part of that establishment your instinct is to protect it from outsiders like me who suggest it needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt, yet I will keep going back to the same point which you have never been able to answer. Public sector employment is higher than ever, public spending is higher than ever and yet public sector output hasn't grown in 5 years. The system is simply eating up resources and giving us nothing for it.
    No, I can and the use of consultants or Interim staff to fill highly paid posts is a big problem and when you see £1000 and £1200 per day being lashed out, you ask questions.

    The reason Consultants or Interims (another way to swerve the recruitment process) are employed is because the level of specialist knowledge and experience perceived to be required just doesn't exist among the on-site staff so it has to be bought in. It's a lazy way of dealing with a problem of recruitment and retention.

    If you hire new staff at the salaries local councils can afford to offer (as distinct from a private organisation like yours which can presumably spend whatever it likes to get whoever they want), you won't get top level quality staff. The younger able staff do their time in the council, get their qualifications and experience and then go on into the private sector who can often pay double what the local council can.

    As for levels of "public sector employment", Covid caused an increase which has never been reversed but that's not been seen in local Government but perhaps more in the NHS about which I know much less.

    As for "output", the mantra frequently was doing more with less but that's not how it worked and we ended up doing less with less as individuals were overworked and given unrealistic deadlines. The technology wasn't the issue - in any case, how do you measure the output of a child social worker - by the number of cases?
    That’s what Cornwall are doing (based on the experience of the foster mum we saw last week).

    The staff are so overworked they sent the parent with no access the details of the new secondary school from September but hadn’t actually told the foster mum or the current primary school
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848

    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He's bored already. He'll be off before 2029
    Where do people get this stuff from?
    His track record of buggering off to do something else
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    edited June 23
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Starmer most likely won't fight the next election, so a lot of this speculation is moot.

    Does he go at a time of his own choosing?
    It’s very hard (virtually impossible) to remove a Labour PM unless he wants to leave.

    Given the work and steps required to remove him / her, the leader would have to be deaf, dumb, blind and brain dead not to realise the time was up
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246

    WinViz currently gives England a 15% chance of victory.

    I think that should be more like 1.5%.....requiring yet another innings for ages from Root or Stokes.

    I think chasing 400 is possible on this pitch and if Bumrah gets tired, breaks down etc. I question how aggressive Gill will be tonight - you know Stokes would be getting the batters swinging to get the maximum bowling time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
    That last sentence is code for "so me and my other Lib Dem friends can object to all of the development we can and block any new houses or infrastructure". It's so transparent sometimes, you didn't even need to bother trying to hide it.
    I think you need to invest in a new translation matrix as your code machine is a little out of date (somewhere in the 1980s) and faulty.

    Developers who work with communities in pre-submission meetings usually get their applications through with little or no fuss. It's those who drive a coach and horses through densities agreed in local plans who run into problems with the Councils themselves (let alone the public) and have to waste time and money appealing to the Government.
    So are you in favour or against new runways at Heathrow and Gatwick? Would you back new the expansion of the runway and terminal building at London City so it can take larger aircraft? All three of these are ultra high multiplier investments yet are constantly blocked by "consultations with locals" and various activist NIMBY groups.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,826
    Leon said:

    Farage is going to win

    That said I saw Big Nige on telly other day and he looked… old

    He was one of those people who looked a bit younger than his age until about 5 years ago.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,735

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,843
    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1937171298393936014

    Did I hear Former President Medvedev, from Russia, casually throwing around the "N word" (Nuclear!), and saying that he and other Countries would supply Nuclear Warheads to Iran? Did he really say that or, is it just a figment of my imagination? If he did say that, and, if confirmed, please let me know, IMMEDIATELY. The "N word" should not be treated so casually. I guess that's why Putin's "THE BOSS." By the way, if anyone thinks our "hardware" was great over the weekend, far and away the strongest and best equipment we have, 20 years advanced over the pack, is our Nuclear Submarines. They are the most powerful and lethal weapons ever built, and just launched the 30 Tomahawks — All 30 hit their mark perfectly. So, in addition to our Great Fighter Pilots, thank you to the Captain and Crew!
  • eekeek Posts: 30,354
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    He still often leads best PM polls against Farage and Badenoch though, it is getting a grip on the boats and stopping raising tax which will be a better way for Labour to boost support than getting rid of Starmer

    And yet further tax rises are impossible to avoid.

    The problem this Government has is that they are trying to give their supporters quick wins when they would have been better off sorting out a few things and getting the bad but unavoidable things such as an increase in employee NI or income tax out of the way first
    Maybe the government needs to think about how to grow the real economy rather than just grow public spending. Wouldn't need the tax rises if they did that.
    We’ve been trying to do that for at least 17 years ( since 2008) and probably well before then.

    So any ideas for quick wins that will actually result in productivity growth?
    1) Rather than messing around with piddly tax rises or cuts that don't address the cliff edges in the tax system, actually grasp the cliff edges and eliminate them, meaning people can be more productive and keep more of their income if they are rather than be punished or afraid of a cliff edge.

    2) Meaningful planning reform so that people can get on with building businesses/homes/shops/whatever without years or decades of planning back and forth.
    Actually, putting it this way (a slightly more nuanced way of some of your previous) makes a lot of sense.I agree completely about cliff edges - I'd like to see how "twilight" tax bands might work - we have a 40p and 45p rate - could we have a 30p rate and a 50p rate as well but based on where the thresholds would have been if Conservative Chancellors hadn't dragged so many intom paying higher rates of tax via fiscal drag. Perhaps a lower 10p tax rate as well.

    I'm more than happy to support "meaningful planning reform" as long as there is some form of public consultation form larger developments and we see developers more interested in working with communities than making a fast buck.
    That last sentence is code for "so me and my other Lib Dem friends can object to all of the development we can and block any new houses or infrastructure". It's so transparent sometimes, you didn't even need to bother trying to hide it.
    I think you need to invest in a new translation matrix as your code machine is a little out of date (somewhere in the 1980s) and faulty.

    Developers who work with communities in pre-submission meetings usually get their applications through with little or no fuss. It's those who drive a coach and horses through densities agreed in local plans who run into problems with the Councils themselves (let alone the public) and have to waste time and money appealing to the Government.
    So are you in favour or against new runways at Heathrow and Gatwick? Would you back new the expansion of the runway and terminal building at London City so it can take larger aircraft? All three of these are ultra high multiplier investments yet are constantly blocked by "consultations with locals" and various activist NIMBY groups.
    Gatwick - now the old restrictions are time served needs to be implemented.
    Heathrow - find a way that doesn’t impact the M25 - although personally I would go Boris Island and reuse for housing
    London City - still a mess even after expansion so a harder question - I actually think No
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    I know little of local governance but I do wonder if it has parallels with student union politics. The students make lots of big pledges trying to get elected and when they are in power are very quickly steered by the university down the line of what is possible and what isn't.

    Local councils may be similar.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited June 23

    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    I know little of local governance but I do wonder if it has parallels with student union politics. The students make lots of big pledges trying to get elected and when they are in power are very quickly steered by the university down the line of what is possible and what isn't.

    Local councils may be similar.
    What do we want...Pound a pint and free cheesy chips....when do we want it.... every Wednesday....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206
    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    Those senior officers should be first to the gulags. Roadblocks to reform, protecting their own salaries and nothing more.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,268
    Scott_xP said:

    @GregTSargent

    Amazing. NYT has more confirmation that Trump's decision to bomb Iran was motivated in large part by the way the Israeli strikes were "playing" on Fox News, which drove him to want some credit for it

    https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/1937099961373483269

    If the Palestinian protestors were serious they'd stop chucking paint about and instead have a whip round to advertise emaciated Gaza babies on Fox.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    Those senior officers should be first to the gulags. Roadblocks to reform, protecting their own salaries and nothing more.
    Do you believe that anyone in the public sector does a good job? You seem rather obsessed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    Surprised Trump is still watching Fox News, they weren't big fans of him for a good chunk of time. I would have thought NewsMax would be more his cup of tea.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,567

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1937171298393936014

    Did I hear Former President Medvedev, from Russia, casually throwing around the "N word" (Nuclear!), and saying that he and other Countries would supply Nuclear Warheads to Iran? Did he really say that or, is it just a figment of my imagination? If he did say that, and, if confirmed, please let me know, IMMEDIATELY. The "N word" should not be treated so casually. I guess that's why Putin's "THE BOSS." By the way, if anyone thinks our "hardware" was great over the weekend, far and away the strongest and best equipment we have, 20 years advanced over the pack, is our Nuclear Submarines. They are the most powerful and lethal weapons ever built, and just launched the 30 Tomahawks — All 30 hit their mark perfectly. So, in addition to our Great Fighter Pilots, thank you to the Captain and Crew!

    In italics and everything. Lovely job.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,826
    edited June 23
    It's nice to see a more traditional test match being played at Headingley, one that will last for 5 days for a change. None of this 3 day rubbish.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    Ok England youve let them make a game out of it, finish it off now please
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @factal

    Qatar closes airspace to commercial traffic over safety concerns following US-Iran strikes, marking first Gulf state to do so

    https://x.com/factal/status/1937174475969040838
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,206

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    Those senior officers should be first to the gulags. Roadblocks to reform, protecting their own salaries and nothing more.
    Do you believe that anyone in the public sector does a good job? You seem rather obsessed.
    There are individual doctors, nurses, teachers and other customer facing people who I think do very well. Then there's a large contingent of very lazy senior and middle manager types there to get a salary and pension who create micro-bureaucracies around them to justify their jobs, hire other middle managers and lower roles, create themselves fiefdoms and multiple layers of unnecessary bullshit because they know the government doesn't have the balls to get rid of them. The whole administrative part of the public sector just needs sweeping away. I'd genuinely sack 25% of them per year until people started to notice they were gone. Just random selection in the pool by employee number or something.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,268
    Scott_xP said:

    @annmarie

    Iran’s armed forces Chief of Staff Abdolrahim Mousavi says after the US attack, the army is “now free to take any action” against US interests and military, per state-run IRIB agency.

    US and UK tell citizens in Qatar to shelter in place
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqx29w0lrx0o

    That likely explains the Qatar warning. There is a big American base there.

    Hopefully wiser counsel will prevail.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,883
    edited June 23
    Starmer will stand down before the next election and give someone else a go in an effort to refresh Labour with a new face

    The only issue is how much irrecoverable damage he and Reeves do to Labour before their departures.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,030
    @londonvinjamuri

    Max Boot on CFR call anticipates that at most the US strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities sets its program back by 2-3 years, which is less than the JCPOA would have done. Notes current uncertainty about what comes next.

    https://x.com/londonvinjamuri/status/1937174399016157615
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848
    Qatar closes its airspace.......

    Feckin Brace
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,826
    Rahul goes, played on.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,848

    Starmer will stand down before the next election and give someone else a go in an effort to refresh Labour with a new face

    The only issue is how much irrecoverable damage he and Reeves do to Labour before their departures.

    On top of the already irrecoverable stuff?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,268
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    Those senior officers should be first to the gulags. Roadblocks to reform, protecting their own salaries and nothing more.
    Do you believe that anyone in the public sector does a good job? You seem rather obsessed.
    There are individual doctors, nurses, teachers and other customer facing people who I think do very well. Then there's a large contingent of very lazy senior and middle manager types there to get a salary and pension who create micro-bureaucracies around them to justify their jobs, hire other middle managers and lower roles, create themselves fiefdoms and multiple layers of unnecessary bullshit because they know the government doesn't have the balls to get rid of them. The whole administrative part of the public sector just needs sweeping away. I'd genuinely sack 25% of them per year until people started to notice they were gone. Just random selection in the pool by employee number or something.
    You can't sack people at random, you need to restructure. Get rid of the internal market and probably trusts as well, then you won't need armies of pen-pushers and bean counters.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,040
    Andy_JS said:

    Rahul goes, played on.

    Always really annoyed me that played on is "bowled" in the scorebook
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,246
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Reform in actual government latest:


    Andrew Topping
    @AToppingJourno

    NEW: 'No idea, genuinely': Watch as Reform economic chief gets confused over existing relationships between Notts County Council and regional leaders.

    Cllr James Walker-Gurley, a new Reform cabinet member in Notts, sat down with us last week. It didn't go well.

    @laurenamonaghan

    https://x.com/AToppingJourno/status/1937134139473277269

    This is the problem when you have a revolution.

    The revolutionaries take over and most of them don't have a clue. I mentioned last week how the first Cabinet meetings in Kent and Derbyshire weren't until the end of July so for the better part of three months, these authorities have mostly been leaderless and rudderless.

    I don't know the extent to which Reform councillors are able to act without having to consult their HQ first but the notion of Yusuf micro-managing hundreds of councillors is absurd.

    The other side of the revolution will be the extent to which Reform councillors get "nobbled" by senior officers who will tell them not just how things do work but how things should work.
    Those senior officers should be first to the gulags. Roadblocks to reform, protecting their own salaries and nothing more.
    Do you believe that anyone in the public sector does a good job? You seem rather obsessed.
    There are individual doctors, nurses, teachers and other customer facing people who I think do very well. Then there's a large contingent of very lazy senior and middle manager types there to get a salary and pension who create micro-bureaucracies around them to justify their jobs, hire other middle managers and lower roles, create themselves fiefdoms and multiple layers of unnecessary bullshit because they know the government doesn't have the balls to get rid of them. The whole administrative part of the public sector just needs sweeping away. I'd genuinely sack 25% of them per year until people started to notice they were gone. Just random selection in the pool by employee number or something.
    How do you know that this is true? If you call it an experiment how do you deal with the employment law?
Sign In or Register to comment.