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Who will be Tory leader at the next general election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,534
edited June 23 in General
Who will be Tory leader at the next general election? – politicalbetting.com

Smarkets have some very low liquidity markets on who will be Tory leader at the next general election but it chimes in with markets where punters think Kemi Badenoch is doomed where it is believed that senior members of Hezbollah and the IRFC have longer career prospects that Kemi Badenoch.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,621
    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,832
    There may be some competent new Tory MPs. There are very few competent old Tory MPs. Apart from possibly Jeremy Hunt, I can’t think of any.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,765
    malcolmg said:

    hello

    hello.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,660
    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    The paucity of talent is, to me, rather frightening. Who could blame voters for looking elsewhere to possibly questionable parties.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,765

    There may be some competent new Tory MPs. There are very few competent old Tory MPs. Apart from possibly Jeremy Hunt, I can’t think of any.

    Ian Duncan Smith has matured nicely. I would also nominate.Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown, sole survivor of the LD rout in the Cotswolds, although he is essentially a constituency man and lifetime backbencher.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,995
    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    The paucity of talent is, to me, rather frightening. Who could blame voters for looking elsewhere to possibly questionable parties.
    If you're talking about the Farage party, then there's no reason to put 'possibly' in your sentence. They are very questionable.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 989
    Poor Kemi. Strived for the role she always wanted only to find out she's crap at it. Any sensible person would exit gracefully to preserve their longer term prospects.

    What is it about the modern Tory party that gives you Kemi, Truss and Boris. Does reading the Telegraph cause brain damage?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,660

    There may be some competent new Tory MPs. There are very few competent old Tory MPs. Apart from possibly Jeremy Hunt, I can’t think of any.

    Ian Duncan Smith has matured nicely. I would also nominate.Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown, sole survivor of the LD rout in the Cotswolds, although he is essentially a constituency man and lifetime backbencher.
    Sometimes the best leaders are those who never wanted to become leaders.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,621
    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    The paucity of talent is, to me, rather frightening. Who could blame voters for looking elsewhere to possibly questionable parties.
    I agree.

    The traditional job of the Tories is to get things back on track after Labour seriously screws things up. 1979 and 2010 are classic examples of that. Labour are doing their part with real dedication by the likes of Reeves and Miliband. But I am not seeing an alternative worthy of the name.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,768

    There may be some competent new Tory MPs. There are very few competent old Tory MPs. Apart from possibly Jeremy Hunt, I can’t think of any.

    Ian Duncan Smith has matured nicely. I would also nominate.Sir Geoffrey Clifton Brown, sole survivor of the LD rout in the Cotswolds, although he is essentially a constituency man and lifetime backbencher.
    GCB has been quite good on a campaign I am involved in. He was quite good at nailing a civil servant talking bollocks at a Parliamentary committee meeting.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,155
    edited June 23
    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,066
    Don't know don't care all of them are a shower of shite
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,074
    I'm quite interested in the Palestine Action debate. From the description in the legislation, it's an obvious case of "terrorism" - serious property damage for the purpose of advancing a political cause.

    My instinct is that's a bit too broad a definition. But, like any football fan, what I'm really interested in is consistency of application of the law. If Palestine Action (and their wider supporters) are being prosecuted on this basis, why isn't everyone who took part in the Southport riots, and those online who supported them, being similarly banged up on terrorism charges?

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,418
    DavidL said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    The paucity of talent is, to me, rather frightening. Who could blame voters for looking elsewhere to possibly questionable parties.
    I agree.

    The traditional job of the Tories is to get things back on track after Labour seriously screws things up. 1979 and 2010 are classic examples of that. Labour are doing their part with real dedication by the likes of Reeves and Miliband. But I am not seeing an alternative worthy of the name.
    It has been off and on all weekend, alternate sun and downpours. Car insurance is robbery nowadays for sure, good luck with it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,418
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    The paucity of talent is, to me, rather frightening. Who could blame voters for looking elsewhere to possibly questionable parties.
    I agree.

    The traditional job of the Tories is to get things back on track after Labour seriously screws things up. 1979 and 2010 are classic examples of that. Labour are doing their part with real dedication by the likes of Reeves and Miliband. But I am not seeing an alternative worthy of the name.
    It has been off and on all weekend, alternate sun and downpours. Car insurance is robbery nowadays for sure, good luck with it.
    I am not crazy David, I was replying to Eabhal, or thought I was at least.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,917
    FPT:

    Leon said:

    “Just came back from a large birthday party full of very wealthy people.

    Nearly all of them are leaving the U.K.

    All for the exact same two reasons.

    Too much tax and too many migrants.”

    https://x.com/kezia_noble/status/1936768025761358176?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    London property is about to crater

    Judging by her twitter feed she’s not exactly unbiased
    Kezia Noble?

    Is that lady not the studio cleavage on GB News?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,641
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    £248 this year for me, which was lower than last year. This insurer shows my full 19 years NCD too which I like rather than just the 9+ Churchill did.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,418
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    £248 this year for me, which was lower than last year. This insurer shows my full 19 years NCD too which I like rather than just the 9+ Churchill did.
    name them so we can all benefit
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,995

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Trump is a wanker. Saying one thing then saying the complete opposite thing just to appear to be edgy and newsworthy. He is perfectly capable of dragging the US into a hot war here.

    Starmer has tried to be the friend of the wanker, easing him away from the truly stupid - he needs to be very mindful of not following Trump into insanity.

    Iran is going to close the Straights of Hormuz. That by definition will lead to open warfare between Iran and the US. We should not get involved - other than working with the likes of Qatar to broker the inevitable climb down and peace deal.
    We need to look after our own interests. Does Iran blocking the straits - or all the other nasty stuff they do geopolitically - hurt us? If so, what do we do about it?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,066
    Rule no 1 never accept the first quote from any insurer about anything. If they drop.the price to keep.you then they were ripping you off with the first quote.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,917
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    £248 this year for me, which was lower than last year. This insurer shows my full 19 years NCD too which I like rather than just the 9+ Churchill did.
    Which model of vehicle?

    If you are roughly where I think you are, it could be a Subaru :wink: .
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,429

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,019

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    Iran didn't have nukes
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,483

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Trump is a wanker. Saying one thing then saying the complete opposite thing just to appear to be edgy and newsworthy. He is perfectly capable of dragging the US into a hot war here.

    Starmer has tried to be the friend of the wanker, easing him away from the truly stupid - he needs to be very mindful of not following Trump into insanity.

    Iran is going to close the Straights of Hormuz. That by definition will lead to open warfare between Iran and the US. We should not get involved - other than working with the likes of Qatar to broker the inevitable climb down and peace deal.
    We need to look after our own interests. Does Iran blocking the straits - or all the other nasty stuff they do geopolitically - hurt us? If so, what do we do about it?
    We negotiate.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,352
    edited June 23

    Rule no 1 never accept the first quote from any insurer about anything. If they drop.the price to keep.you then they were ripping you off with the first quote.

    I take great joy in phoning up to cancel on renewal and vetoing their offer to try to match the quote I'm moving to with "sorry you already had your chance - just make sure the renewal isn't renewed".
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,378
    edited June 23
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    Your loyalty is not allowed to mean anything, per new government rules. They must give a new customer the same price.

    I paid £224 this year. God knows how, but I'll take it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,019
    @haynesdeborah
    Has the UK ever seemed so irrelevant in an international crisis? Genuine question...
    The government isn't even able to say publicly if it is for or against the US strikes on Iran Defence minister @LukePollard dodged the question despite being asked 4 times by @WilfredFrost

    Q: Is our government pleased or disappointed that the US took this action (to attack Iran)?
    A: It is not for me to comment on the particular US action
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,973

    Rule no 1 never accept the first quote from any insurer about anything. If they drop.the price to keep.you then they were ripping you off with the first quote.

    Which, as a company in a free market, is pretty much their duty. For the market to work, the seller has got to pitch for as much as they think they can get away with and the buyer as little as possible. Then they are meant to haggle to get to something both sides are happy with.

    But yes, it's a hassle, for some a very disagreeable hassle. I'd much rather not bother, and would happily pay quite a bit more to not do so.

    (See also, utility contracts and salaries. High pay is often more about willingness to demand it as any intrinsic worth of the job or brilliance at it.)
  • vikvik Posts: 536
    edited June 23
    The Israelis yesterday carried out airstrikes within 10 kilometres of the Bushehr Nuclear Power Plant.

    If they accidentally hit the power plant then it could cause a Chernobyl-level disaster:

    In a worst-case scenario, a strike on Bushehr, which contains “thousands of kilogrammes of nuclear material”, would require evacuation orders to be issued for areas within several hundred kilometres of the plant, including population centres in other Gulf countries, he said.

    Grossi said that a strike on the two lines that supply electricity to Bushehr could cause its reactor core to melt, with dire consequences.

    Authorities would have to take protective actions, administering iodine to populations and potentially restricting food supplies, with subsequent radiation monitoring covering distances of several hundred kilometres.




    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/6/20/iaeas-grossi-warns-of-nuclear-disaster-if-israel-hits-irans-bushehr-plant
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,019
    Zelensky in London this morning
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    edited June 23
    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
    Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,678
    DavidL said:

    The paucity of talent is depressing. A competent government would be a delightful change but its not even on the horizon (or the rear view mirror).

    Yes. And this is a betting matter. SFAICS Jeremy Hunt isn't going to be leader. No-one else at this time is close to seeming to be the part to those who have left the Tories in their millions for NOTA, LDs and Labour. Few if any new ones have made a mark.

    This affects the probabilities. Only one party, however flawed, can form or lead a government on behalf of moderates wanting maximally stable government. That one is Labour. The chances of either a Labour or Labour led government in 2029 are high.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,643
    Scott_xP said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    Iran didn't have nukes
    More to the point, Iran would have been nowhere near nukes if Trump, at Netamyahu's urging, hadn't ripped up Obama's deal for no discernible reason. I'm no fan of Obama, but he did agree a reasonable deal with the Iranians that they were sticking with.

    In a rare example of karma in international affairs, Trump and Netanyahu are having to clean up their own mess at much higher cost than if they'd just stuck to the deal in the first place.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
    There's not going to be boots on the ground.

    The question is: to what extent did the US disrupt Iran's uranium enrichment program?

    And there are (broadly) three possible scenarios:

    (1) They destroyed the centrifuges and buried the enriched uranium. Even getting their hands on the uranium is going to be difficult, and a nuclear device is now at least 5 years away, and possibly more like 10.

    (2) They destroyed the enrichment facility and the centrifuges, but didn't manage to put the HEU beyond use. In this scenario, Iran will probably acquire new centrifuges over the next few years, and will begin enrichment again, at somewhere even more fortified than previously. In which case, they are probably 3 to 5 years away from a bomb, unless there is regime change,

    (3) Any damage to the facilities is repairable, in which case, Iran is probably only 9 to 18 months away from nuclear capability.

    My guess is that (2) is the most likely scenario,
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348
    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    Iran didn't have nukes
    More to the point, Iran would have been nowhere near nukes if Trump, at Netamyahu's urging, hadn't ripped up Obama's deal for no discernible reason. I'm no fan of Obama, but he did agree a reasonable deal with the Iranians that they were sticking with.

    In a rare example of karma in international affairs, Trump and Netanyahu are having to clean up their own mess at much higher cost than if they'd just stuck to the deal in the first place.
    Oppositionalism.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    edited June 23
    Lammy doing a Gabbard over an Iran nuclear threat. Surprising, has he ever reverse ferreted over anything else?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
    There's not going to be boots on the ground.

    The question is: to what extent did the US disrupt Iran's uranium enrichment program?

    And there are (broadly) three possible scenarios:

    (1) They destroyed the centrifuges and buried the enriched uranium. Even getting their hands on the uranium is going to be difficult, and a nuclear device is now at least 5 years away, and possibly more like 10.

    (2) They destroyed the enrichment facility and the centrifuges, but didn't manage to put the HEU beyond use. In this scenario, Iran will probably acquire new centrifuges over the next few years, and will begin enrichment again, at somewhere even more fortified than previously. In which case, they are probably 3 to 5 years away from a bomb, unless there is regime change,

    (3) Any damage to the facilities is repairable, in which case, Iran is probably only 9 to 18 months away from nuclear capability.

    My guess is that (2) is the most likely scenario,
    They’d need to tighten up their secrecy quite a bit wouldn’t wouldn’t they. Even Hollywood script writers knew where they were hiding the goods. One imagines now the precedent is set, some combination of the Israelis and America’s would snuff out a repeat programme in its infancy, perhaps with a “this is your final warning”.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
    There's not going to be boots on the ground.

    The question is: to what extent did the US disrupt Iran's uranium enrichment program?

    And there are (broadly) three possible scenarios:

    (1) They destroyed the centrifuges and buried the enriched uranium. Even getting their hands on the uranium is going to be difficult, and a nuclear device is now at least 5 years away, and possibly more like 10.

    (2) They destroyed the enrichment facility and the centrifuges, but didn't manage to put the HEU beyond use. In this scenario, Iran will probably acquire new centrifuges over the next few years, and will begin enrichment again, at somewhere even more fortified than previously. In which case, they are probably 3 to 5 years away from a bomb, unless there is regime change,

    (3) Any damage to the facilities is repairable, in which case, Iran is probably only 9 to 18 months away from nuclear capability.

    My guess is that (2) is the most likely scenario,
    I guess US boots on Iraqi ground may be looking nervously over their shoulders.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,425
    I have to give credit to Reform, they have some genius political communicators working for them. This Britannia card policy is, in political communication terms, almost perfect.

    Compared to what the other parties have put out over the last several years it's on a different level entirely. People are seriously underestimating Reform. I no longer think that 40% at the general election is out of reach.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
    There's not going to be boots on the ground.

    The question is: to what extent did the US disrupt Iran's uranium enrichment program?

    And there are (broadly) three possible scenarios:

    (1) They destroyed the centrifuges and buried the enriched uranium. Even getting their hands on the uranium is going to be difficult, and a nuclear device is now at least 5 years away, and possibly more like 10.

    (2) They destroyed the enrichment facility and the centrifuges, but didn't manage to put the HEU beyond use. In this scenario, Iran will probably acquire new centrifuges over the next few years, and will begin enrichment again, at somewhere even more fortified than previously. In which case, they are probably 3 to 5 years away from a bomb, unless there is regime change,

    (3) Any damage to the facilities is repairable, in which case, Iran is probably only 9 to 18 months away from nuclear capability.

    My guess is that (2) is the most likely scenario,
    They’d need to tighten up their secrecy quite a bit wouldn’t wouldn’t they. Even Hollywood script writers knew where they were hiding the goods. One imagines now the precedent is set, some combination of the Israelis and America’s would snuff out a repeat programme in its infancy, perhaps with a “this is your final warning”.
    I suspect they will (a) distribute them a lot more than previously, rather than having a single site with more than 1,000 centrifugues, and (b) follow the Hamas strategy of burying them under hospitals and the like.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915

    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
    Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
    Do you think trump has magically squirrelled several hundred thousands US troops on the Iranian border, while we were distracted by the sleight of hand of that parade? His comments are some combination of political hyperbole and a call to arms to Iranian insurgents. I don’t rule out down the line an aerially conducted decapitation strategy but that feels a long way off and would need direct Iranian retaliation first. Happy to hear why this view is wrong.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,155
    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    Your loyalty is not allowed to mean anything, per new government rules. They must give a new customer the same price.

    I paid £224 this year. God knows how, but I'll take it.
    In principle @Eabhal shouldn't be able to get a discount on his insurance because the company should have offered him the best rates, which is what those rules say.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    It depends on whether you think Lidar achieves something for this use case that Vision AI cannot.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,378
    FF43 said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    Your loyalty is not allowed to mean anything, per new government rules. They must give a new customer the same price.

    I paid £224 this year. God knows how, but I'll take it.
    In principle @Eabhal shouldn't be able to get a discount on his insurance because the company should have offered him the best rates, which is what those rules say.
    Yes, you are right. I am up too early and got it the wrong way around....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,822
    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,483
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    We will see. We were told that vision-only would not work, and yet here we are with it working. As I understand it there is a new software stack imminent which will make another big leap forward in how FSD works - what happens when Tesla buy a shitton of GPUs and set them to work.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,973

    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    By 2035? So two general elections away?

    Everybody is going to have to explain where they would get the money from.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,348
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    It depends on whether you think Lidar achieves something for this use case that Vision AI cannot.
    This my theory:

    We're much more accepting of human beings making mistakes than we are of machines. If Joe Smith has a lapse of concentration and runs someone over, it's very sad, but we understand it. We're all human after all.

    We hold technology to a much higher standard. If a machine makes a mistake and runs someone over, we will be very unhappy indeed, and we'll demand something is done about it.

    Musk is a utilitarian: he sees his FSD with cameras alone as being safer than a human driver, and I'm sure he's right. But we will hold robotaxis to a higher standard. The first time that a child is run over (and a child wll be run over), then those Robotaxis will be off the streets, and people will be demanding they don't start up again until Tesla can guarantee no child deaths.

    LIDAR takes vehicles from better than human, to much better than human. It enables the vehicle to "see" things, even when humans or cameras cannot see them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,657
    edited June 23

    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    They won't. They'll leave it for whoever follows them to struggle to achieve.

    See also May's ridiculous "I want a legacy" legal commitment to Net Zero by... 2050, I think.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,514
    edited June 23

    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    The Reform Government of 2029 to 2034!

    Next question.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,352
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    Doesn't Tesla have the exact same business model as Waymo for it's robocabs. Heck even if the plan is to let the general public buy, insure and run them the end result is going to be the same.

    And the lack of LIDAR is why I think Tesla's self driving is a dead end - it will get close but never actually be good enough for it to achieve what was promised.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
    Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
    Do you think trump has magically squirrelled several hundred thousands US troops on the Iranian border, while we were distracted by the sleight of hand of that parade? His comments are some combination of political hyperbole and a call to arms to Iranian insurgents. I don’t rule out down the line an aerially conducted decapitation strategy but that feels a long way off and would need direct Iranian retaliation first. Happy to hear why this view is wrong.
    ‘Look, it’s only one of the four morons of the apocalypse doing a bit of hyperbole, fortunately the record of *checks notes* Hegseth, Rubio and Vance in restraining Trump is AWESOME!’
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,921
    Eabhal said:

    Bemusing to see pro-terrorist "protestors" object to being labelled as terrorists themselves, just because they engaged in an act of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't include being violent. Turn violent and that's terrorism, not protest.

    Do you think spray painting some RAF jets is terrorism? Do you think coming out to support the spray paiting of RAF jets in terrorism?

    I'm starting to get quite concerned about the terrorists over in my local Church of Scotland congregation. Great scones though.
    I think violence to further political aims is terrorism, yes.

    Don't you?

    If your congregation are engaging in violence, then yes they're terrorists, if they're not then what point are you trying to make?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    It depends on whether you think Lidar achieves something for this use case that Vision AI cannot.
    Interesting substack. One difference Tesla vs Waymo is the intention for private owners to be the backbone of the Tesla Network, just like the uber comparison you make. Also the scalability is the key difference.

    Notwithstanding the couple of million cars Tesla churns out each year, it’s realistic to think they can migrate a $15k 5 year old model 3 to the network with a relatively trivial hardware upgrade (compared with a $150k waymo). The economic issue might soon be the opposite of what you say is waymo’s problem: Tesla will have saturated the market to such an extent the margins from joining the network tend to zero in many places.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,822

    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    By 2035? So two general elections away?

    Everybody is going to have to explain where they would get the money from.
    Indeed, but Starmer and Labour are the government for the next 4 years and will need to show a pathway to this spending
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,516

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    hello.
    Hello, hello, hello.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,425
    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
    Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
    Do you think trump has magically squirrelled several hundred thousands US troops on the Iranian border, while we were distracted by the sleight of hand of that parade? His comments are some combination of political hyperbole and a call to arms to Iranian insurgents. I don’t rule out down the line an aerially conducted decapitation strategy but that feels a long way off and would need direct Iranian retaliation first. Happy to hear why this view is wrong.
    ‘Look, it’s only one of the four morons of the apocalypse doing a bit of hyperbole, fortunately the record of *checks notes* Hegseth, Rubio and Vance in restraining Trump is AWESOME!’
    So there is not a coherent counter view to what I said, thanks.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,921

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,514

    Good morning

    Sky reports NATO ambassadors have agreed members must increase defence spending to 5% by 2035

    This is to be affirmed by NATO leaders including Trump and Starmer at NATO's meeting this week

    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    By 2035? So two general elections away?

    Everybody is going to have to explain where they would get the money from.
    Indeed, but Starmer and Labour are the government for the next 4 years and will need to show a pathway to this spending
    Charity curry nights in Durham?

    They can load the post 2029 years for Nigel to sweat over. Although as he is quite comfortable with Putin, maybe it won't be needed for us anyway.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,822

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,921

    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    “At war” and a single night of limited bombing aimed at WMD facilities are qualitatively not the same thing, as you (and AOC) well understand.

    It presents an interesting alt-history actually. Imagine if we had none of Colin Powell and Blair’s UN shenanigans. And W had just sent in B2s to take out the most notable legacy WMD sites in a night or three - Desert Fox v2. That old b*stare Hussein would probably be sat on his golden toilet sending out viral tweets.
    Thank goodness none of the definitely not at war US hierarchy are mentioning regime change.
    There should be regime change and pressure towards it.

    But there's not boots on the ground.

    So what's your problem?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,514

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Iran haven't closed the Straits of Hormuz - yet.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,425

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
    The capability to close the Strait is completely different to that to hit Israel directly. Might it be a mistake to generalise from one to the other?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,104
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    hello.
    Hello, hello, hello.
    Mornin' Sgt Dixon, mornin' all

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,921

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
    The capability to close the Strait is completely different to that to hit Israel directly. Might it be a mistake to generalise from one to the other?
    No.

    If they try to close the Strait then America will come down on them like a tonne of bricks, and they have no air defences.

    They're unable to cope with Israel who are flying unimpeded in their air space, how do you think they are they going to cope with an irate America who wants the Strait reopened?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,425

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Iran haven't closed the Straits of Hormuz - yet.
    Right, but, as I understand it, the market price for oil is actually a futures price, so there's an element of forecasting involved, and a closure of the Strait of Hormuz has to be more likely now than it has been for several decades.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,822

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Iran haven't closed the Straits of Hormuz - yet.
    I expect the Gulf states and China will exert influence on Iran not to close the Straits of Hormuz
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,019
    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Is it me you're looking for?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,626

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Oil prices are already higher than economic fundamentals would imply so I assume the market is simply happy with the current geopolitical risk premium.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,626

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
    The capability to close the Strait is completely different to that to hit Israel directly. Might it be a mistake to generalise from one to the other?
    No.

    If they try to close the Strait then America will come down on them like a tonne of bricks, and they have no air defences.

    They're unable to cope with Israel who are flying unimpeded in their air space, how do you think they are they going to cope with an irate America who wants the Strait reopened?
    Maybe Trump will rename it the Straits of America.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,033

    Eabhal said:

    Bemusing to see pro-terrorist "protestors" object to being labelled as terrorists themselves, just because they engaged in an act of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't include being violent. Turn violent and that's terrorism, not protest.

    Do you think spray painting some RAF jets is terrorism? Do you think coming out to support the spray paiting of RAF jets in terrorism?

    I'm starting to get quite concerned about the terrorists over in my local Church of Scotland congregation. Great scones though.
    I think violence to further political aims is terrorism, yes.

    Don't you?

    If your congregation are engaging in violence, then yes they're terrorists, if they're not then what point are you trying to make?
    There has to be a moral judgement in there somewhere. Otherwise by your definition you'd have to class the Suffragettes as terrorists. Maybe by strict definition they are but only a zealot would make no distinction between them and Baader-Meinhof
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,425

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
    The capability to close the Strait is completely different to that to hit Israel directly. Might it be a mistake to generalise from one to the other?
    No.

    If they try to close the Strait then America will come down on them like a tonne of bricks, and they have no air defences.

    They're unable to cope with Israel who are flying unimpeded in their air space, how do you think they are they going to cope with an irate America who wants the Strait reopened?
    I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good option for them to close the Strait, but you would agree that Ian was seeking a nuclear weapon, yes?

    And nuclear weapons mostly operate on the principle of deterrence, the promise that you will inflict annihilation on the enemy, even if that invites annihilation on return, as deterrence against attack, right?

    But if Iran are unwilling to close the Strait in response to the destruction of their nuclear facilities, then they've shown themselves unwilling to follow through on a deterrence threat. It makes a nuclear weapon much less useful for them, because one would doubt that they'd use it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,078
    TimS said:

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Iran have been shown to have all the power of a senile geriatric who can not open a wet paper bag.
    The capability to close the Strait is completely different to that to hit Israel directly. Might it be a mistake to generalise from one to the other?
    No.

    If they try to close the Strait then America will come down on them like a tonne of bricks, and they have no air defences.

    They're unable to cope with Israel who are flying unimpeded in their air space, how do you think they are they going to cope with an irate America who wants the Strait reopened?
    Maybe Trump will rename it the Straits of America.
    Straits of Straight America.
    The mullahs would approve.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,995

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Trump is a wanker. Saying one thing then saying the complete opposite thing just to appear to be edgy and newsworthy. He is perfectly capable of dragging the US into a hot war here.

    Starmer has tried to be the friend of the wanker, easing him away from the truly stupid - he needs to be very mindful of not following Trump into insanity.

    Iran is going to close the Straights of Hormuz. That by definition will lead to open warfare between Iran and the US. We should not get involved - other than working with the likes of Qatar to broker the inevitable climb down and peace deal.
    We need to look after our own interests. Does Iran blocking the straits - or all the other nasty stuff they do geopolitically - hurt us? If so, what do we do about it?
    We negotiate.
    A lovely sentiment. But as Russia shows; negotiation can only be done with a party that actually wants to negotiate honestly. Does Iran? From past evidence, not much.

    And in the meantime, they continue hurting us.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,155
    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    Your loyalty is not allowed to mean anything, per new government rules. They must give a new customer the same price.

    I paid £224 this year. God knows how, but I'll take it.
    In principle @Eabhal shouldn't be able to get a discount on his insurance because the company should have offered him the best rates, which is what those rules say.
    Yes, you are right. I am up too early and got it the wrong way around....
    Clearly insurance companies are not following the spirit of the rules , so that may not have been so wrong.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,915
    TimS said:

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Oil prices are already higher than economic fundamentals would imply so I assume the market is simply happy with the current geopolitical risk premium.
    Indeed, we’d be at ~$60 without all this
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,249
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    Trump needs be wary of Netanyahu

    "Do you want America to be at war with Iran?"

    No: 85%
    Yes: 5%

    YouGov / June 22, 2025


    https://bsky.app/profile/usapolling.bsky.social/post/3lsaj2uj7hc2l

    And add Starmer should also be wary of Trump. I don't expect an Iran war to be any more popular in the UK.

    Some Trumpian mouthpiece just on R4 saying bombing Iran was polling well with folks back home. Real as opposed to fake polls I guess.
    To be fair to that Trumpian, there's other polling from reputable pollsters which show a big majority of Yanks not wanting Iran to have nukes.
    I suppose the nitty gritty question would be do you support the bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities if it means boots on the ground with dead Americans wearing them.
    There's not going to be boots on the ground.

    The question is: to what extent did the US disrupt Iran's uranium enrichment program?

    And there are (broadly) three possible scenarios:

    (1) They destroyed the centrifuges and buried the enriched uranium. Even getting their hands on the uranium is going to be difficult, and a nuclear device is now at least 5 years away, and possibly more like 10.

    (2) They destroyed the enrichment facility and the centrifuges, but didn't manage to put the HEU beyond use. In this scenario, Iran will probably acquire new centrifuges over the next few years, and will begin enrichment again, at somewhere even more fortified than previously. In which case, they are probably 3 to 5 years away from a bomb, unless there is regime change,

    (3) Any damage to the facilities is repairable, in which case, Iran is probably only 9 to 18 months away from nuclear capability.

    My guess is that (2) is the most likely scenario,
    They’d need to tighten up their secrecy quite a bit wouldn’t wouldn’t they. Even Hollywood script writers knew where they were hiding the goods. One imagines now the precedent is set, some combination of the Israelis and America’s would snuff out a repeat programme in its infancy, perhaps with a “this is your final warning”.
    I suspect they will (a) distribute them a lot more than previously, rather than having a single site with more than 1,000 centrifugues, and (b) follow the Hamas strategy of burying them under hospitals and the like.
    Running a cascade at multiple sites would be extremely inefficient. Quite possibly wouldn’t work.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,641

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    Iran haven't closed the Straits of Hormuz - yet.
    I expect the Gulf states and China will exert influence on Iran not to close the Straits of Hormuz
    Judging by Ship radar it looks like most ships are within Oman/UAE waters to me right now.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,565



    As we are only at 2.6% by 2027, Starmer and Reeves are going to have to explain where the money is coming from

    No, they aren't. They'll say they'll do it then not do it, as will many other countries. What will NATO do about it? Nothing.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,104

    As far as I can see oil prices have failed to react to the Iran War developments over the weekend. So the market either believes that Iran won't try to close the Strait of Hormuz, will be unable to do so, or that there is enough capacity elsewhere to make up the difference.

    Any other explanations?

    I would have thought that, even if the market thought there was only a 20% chance of closure, that would command a hefty risk premium on the current price. So, is this just market complacency, or am I missing something big?

    Sky reporting little reaction in the markets this morning, so maybe Iran will sabre rattle but not cause too much escalation
    The oil-producing non-friends of Iran have every incentive to increase oil output if the Strait of Hormuz gets blocked, so no, there shouldn't be a serious spike in the oil price, much to VVP's chagrin
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,660
    Scott_xP said:

    @haynesdeborah
    Has the UK ever seemed so irrelevant in an international crisis? Genuine question...
    The government isn't even able to say publicly if it is for or against the US strikes on Iran Defence minister @LukePollard dodged the question despite being asked 4 times by @WilfredFrost

    Q: Is our government pleased or disappointed that the US took this action (to attack Iran)?
    A: It is not for me to comment on the particular US action

    There's no shame in a small nation with little geopolitical power being irrelevant in an international crisis. The usual boring criticism is that the UK hasn't adjusted to its irrelevance on the world stage. Interesting to find this time it is a commentator who hasn't adjusted to the change.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,641
    MattW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    £248 this year for me, which was lower than last year. This insurer shows my full 19 years NCD too which I like rather than just the 9+ Churchill did.
    Which model of vehicle?

    If you are roughly where I think you are, it could be a Subaru :wink: .
    Pug 308
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,243
    I suspect if Kemi was removed by Conservative MPs they would try and make Cleverly leader by coronation.

    Otherwise Jenrick would fancy his chances if it went to the membership
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,565
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    £248 this year for me, which was lower than last year. This insurer shows my full 19 years NCD too which I like rather than just the 9+ Churchill did.
    £248? What the fuck are you driving? A P-reg Saxo?

    I've just done mine. Got done up the wrong 'un to the tune of 4 grand and that's with SORNing two cars.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,295
    Stereodog said:

    Eabhal said:

    Bemusing to see pro-terrorist "protestors" object to being labelled as terrorists themselves, just because they engaged in an act of terrorism.

    Peaceful protest doesn't include being violent. Turn violent and that's terrorism, not protest.

    Do you think spray painting some RAF jets is terrorism? Do you think coming out to support the spray paiting of RAF jets in terrorism?

    I'm starting to get quite concerned about the terrorists over in my local Church of Scotland congregation. Great scones though.
    I think violence to further political aims is terrorism, yes.

    Don't you?

    If your congregation are engaging in violence, then yes they're terrorists, if they're not then what point are you trying to make?
    There has to be a moral judgement in there somewhere. Otherwise by your definition you'd have to class the Suffragettes as terrorists. Maybe by strict definition they are but only a zealot would make no distinction between them and Baader-Meinhof
    The thing is that if you do include a moral judgement then you're at risk of "terrorist" devolving into just a word for "the bad guys"...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,483
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Tesla Robotaxi service launched today.

    Sort of. 10 robotaxis. In a subset of Austin. With Tesla support drivers in them. Only giving rides to Tesla employees.

    The last bit isn’t true. The rest is only true for now
    See: https://www.theverge.com/news/690846/tesla-robotaxi-first-reaction-austin
    Yes as it says, it is early access and not just to employees - I know someone who’s never worked for Tesla that has the early access. The supervisor in the front passenger seat feels like an interesting stop gap. He can’t do an emergency stop or swerve. But he can move over to the drivers side if the car has stopped and take control if it gets stuck. That will be done remotely once you’re past the early access / pilot period.
    You are correct: some of the invite list are not Tesla employees.

    The issue for Tesla - though - is that the latest published data on time between disengagements is just 371 miles. Now, I'm sure it will be better for the service area, because they'll have mapped it extensively, and it will have been chosen for not having complex intersections, etc. But -still- 371 miles is around 1% of the Waymo number.

    This has always been a Tortoise and the Hare story though. I’m highly confident it won’t be long before waymo’s business model has been crushed. And at some point after that Uber’s
    Oh, I'm very negative on the Waymo business model.

    But Tesla bet wrong on LIDAR. The cost of LIDAR sensors has absolutely collapsed. Chinese cars are coming with them fitted as standard - and we're not talking about $100,000 cars - we're talking about some cars that cost less than a Model Y having them.
    It depends on whether you think Lidar achieves something for this use case that Vision AI cannot.
    This my theory:

    We're much more accepting of human beings making mistakes than we are of machines. If Joe Smith has a lapse of concentration and runs someone over, it's very sad, but we understand it. We're all human after all.

    We hold technology to a much higher standard. If a machine makes a mistake and runs someone over, we will be very unhappy indeed, and we'll demand something is done about it.

    Musk is a utilitarian: he sees his FSD with cameras alone as being safer than a human driver, and I'm sure he's right. But we will hold robotaxis to a higher standard. The first time that a child is run over (and a child wll be run over), then those Robotaxis will be off the streets, and people will be demanding they don't start up again until Tesla can guarantee no child deaths.

    LIDAR takes vehicles from better than human, to much better than human. It enables the vehicle to "see" things, even when humans or cameras cannot see them.
    Its pretty clear - automated cars will kill people and the reaction will be as you describe. That manually driven cars kill vastly more people will not matter. People are safe (when they kill), machines are not safe.

    Not sure that LIDAR makes a difference - you're waiting until the system can see the danger. But even LIDAR can't see through solid objects, and we had some dickhead on Twitter staging a stunt where they chuck mannequins in front of a Tesla so close that a human driver would also hit them - as "proof" that the thing is dangerous.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,425

    Javier Blas
    @JavierBlas
    Multiple oil tankers crossing the Strait of Hormuz this morning, both in and outbound. No even a hint of disruption.

    Oil loading across multiple ports in the Persian Gulf appears normal.

    https://x.com/JavierBlas/status/1937040222803624398
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,396
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    hello

    Good morning. The weather looks a bit changeable today but the garden is enjoying the mix of sun and rain.

    I'm about to the do the annual charade of negotiating my car insurance down to a reasonable price. Last year I knocked £300 off by fabricating a quote from another provider - my 6 years of loyalty means nothing, apparently.

    It's a tax on those without the time or wherewithal to challenge their renewal prices.
    When they take the piss, I tend to switch anyway, unless they offer me a much better price. Matching doesn't cut it when they've quoted way over in the first place.

    Allianz have actually quoted us realistic prices the last couple of renewals (last time I did find one online that beat by £5, so didn't bother).

    My (least) favourite example of the genre was when I was 20 and had an 8 year old Corsa broken into - the car had deadlocks so smashing the window didn't let them open the door, so they levered it open with a crowbar or similar. Cost about £600 on insurance to get it fixed, new door and some paintwork. Insurer (Nationwide) duly put the next year's premium up by about £700 (I think it was £500 or so year before, renewal quote was north of £1000; I was quite a new driver, but three years' insurance with no claims until then) thereby neatly recovering their loss - they'd tried to persuade me not to claim as well. I switched to Churchill for ~£550 or so. Occasional theft damage to low value cars is not the bulk of a premium, much a they tried to persuade me otherwise.
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