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America and the UK are standing shoulder to shoulder when it comes to not defending Israel

SystemSystem Posts: 12,527
edited June 18 in General
America and the UK are standing shoulder to shoulder when it comes to not defending Israel– politicalbetting.com

Would you support or oppose the United Kingdom helping to defend Israel by assisting in the shooting down of missiles and drones from Iran?Support: 25%Oppose: 49%yougov.co.uk/topics/inter…

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Comments

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    Persian appeasers carry the day
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,962
    edited June 18
    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,926
    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse. The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    (Snip)

    I disagree. It'll be about both, and probably many more things as well.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,902
    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,937

    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse. The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    (Snip)

    I disagree. It'll be about both, and probably many more things as well.
    I agree it’s about both.

    I’ve no issue with what Israel is doing to Iran. However, the IDF is clearly guilty of war crimes in Gaza.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,385
    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    I'll post this again.

    This explains so much.

    Using AI makes you stupid, researchers find

    Study reveals chatbots risk hampering development of critical thinking, memory and language skills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/17/using-ai-makes-you-stupid-researchers-find/
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,346
    This when the US is withdrawing air defence materiel from Ukraine to ship to the Middle East.

    US President Trump left the G7 without speaking to Ukrainian President Zelenskyy after Russia launched its deadliest missile strike on Kyiv

    He had nothing to say to Ukraine, said former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Volodymyr Ohryzko

    https://x.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1935048720275398795
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    edited June 18
    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,413
    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    Should Bibi attack himself for historically suring up Hamas and Hezbollah as agents of discord in the Palestinian territories?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,902
    @iandunt.bsky.social‬

    Previous US administrations prevented Netenyahu pursuing his lunatic plans. This one has been utterly humiliated by him, having to play catch up with an actor it cannot control or condemn. What we're seeing here is the reality of US decline.

    https://bsky.app/profile/iandunt.bsky.social/post/3lrudslajck2k
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,173
    That US poll question is too convoluted for this bear of little brain – negotiations as an alternative to bombing Iran or to staying out?

    But we should bear in mind a lot of Trump's support is isolationist and Trump will not welcome being bounced into a new war by Bibi and GOP neocons.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,173
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,059

    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    I'll post this again.

    This explains so much.

    Using AI makes you stupid, researchers find

    Study reveals chatbots risk hampering development of critical thinking, memory and language skills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/17/using-ai-makes-you-stupid-researchers-find/
    Surely it depends what you use it for. I just use it as a glorified search engine. Primarily recipes, home brewing and how do I fix a problem in the house.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,864

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,560

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    The Iranian regime is always prone to hyperbole.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    Their navy will enforce it.
    Failing which they can mine the strait
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,926
    In other news, Kazakhstan seems to be cozying up to us:

    https://dknews.kz/en/articles-in-english/358679-kazakhstan-signs-new-cooperation-deals-with-the-uk
    https://anewz.tv/world/world-news/8661/kazakhstan-and-uk-deepen-military-cooperation/news

    I've been quite impressed with the way Kazakhstan has handled the Ukraine war. They've been nowhere near as pro-Russian as Putin may have hoped.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,820
    FPT…
    vik said:

    ydoethur said:

    US VP JD Vance thinks the first Islamist country to possess nuclear weapons will be ... Britain:-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ve84tHbYq8w

    He’s never heard of Pakistan?

    I mean I know he’s both American and a bit thick, but even so…
    Yeah, it's right there in the official name of the country: "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan"
    Even after Pakistan, I can think of four more countries that have or have had nuclear weapons with larger Muslim populations than the UK: India, China, Russia and France.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,926

    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    Their navy will enforce it.
    Failing which they can mine the strait
    That didn't end too well for Iran last time:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Praying_Mantis
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,173
    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    Rory on TRiP asks China's DeepSeek AI whether Trump and Xi are corrupt (1m20s video)

    DeepSeek is incredibly helpful... until you ask it about Xi Jinping.
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/i3mvaKTJdDI
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,962

    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    Should Bibi attack himself for historically suring up Hamas and Hezbollah as agents of discord in the Palestinian territories?
    We* should be so lucky.

    *And Israel, for the matter of that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,346
    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    But not necessarily their attacks on shipping, or placement of mines.
    Whether they can physically close it is possibly less important than their ability to make shipping uninsurable.

    There's some discussion of the practicalities on Wikipedia.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Hormuz
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,962

    In other news, Kazakhstan seems to be cozying up to us:

    https://dknews.kz/en/articles-in-english/358679-kazakhstan-signs-new-cooperation-deals-with-the-uk
    https://anewz.tv/world/world-news/8661/kazakhstan-and-uk-deepen-military-cooperation/news

    I've been quite impressed with the way Kazakhstan has handled the Ukraine war. They've been nowhere near as pro-Russian as Putin may have hoped.

    Friend of all Uzbekistan (and Vladimir Putin).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,144

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,392

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    They should get permission with ordnance, cannot have these feckers deciding who sails the oceans, at same time give those Houti nutters a good going over as well.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,173
    F1: The Movie – Brad Pitt’s spectacular racing drama is Barbie for dads
    Thrilling action scenes and a puppyishly charming leading man turn this officially branded Formula One film into rousing entertainment

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/f1-the-movie-review-brad-pitt/

    That will keep @Morris_Dancer quiet for a couple of hours.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,962
    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    Can you? If I remember right last time we had this from Iran @Dura_Ace pointed out that the deep water channel tankers have to use *does* pass through Iran's territorial waters.

    I'm happy to be corrected, but just because it's blue doesn't mean it's navigable.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,567
    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    It all comes back to Trump doesn't it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,962
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    It all comes back to Trump doesn't it?
    I'm no starry-eyed admirer of Trump, but Netanyahu is a lot worse.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,997

    That US poll question is too convoluted for this bear of little brain – negotiations as an alternative to bombing Iran or to staying out?

    But we should bear in mind a lot of Trump's support is isolationist and Trump will not welcome being bounced into a new war by Bibi and GOP neocons.

    That implies a level of consistent strategic thought in Trump which I don’t think exists. He’s a quivering sac of impulses with great variance, and with absolutely no shame when one impulse directly contradicts a previous one - yesterday no wars under Trump, tomorrow bombs away.
    Must be a nightmare for sane Trump wranglers managing him, though the evidence suggests the sane ones are got rid of pdq.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,113
    Looks like the Iranians lost a huge missile store/production facility NE of Tehran overnight.

    Even before that, the attacks against Israel were on a much smaller scale than previously. The Israeli Defence Force showing they are even more efficient at blowing stuff up than they are at shooting Palestinians at food aid stations...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,173
    Putin under pressure to declare war on Ukraine
    President’s ‘special military operation’ doesn’t go far enough, say Russian hardliners

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/06/18/putin-under-pressure-declare-war-ukraine-nationalists-kyiv/ (£££)

    Gift share without paywall:-
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/885c7af540ca275d
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,937
    Nigelb said:

    This when the US is withdrawing air defence materiel from Ukraine to ship to the Middle East.

    US President Trump left the G7 without speaking to Ukrainian President Zelenskyy after Russia launched its deadliest missile strike on Kyiv

    He had nothing to say to Ukraine, said former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Volodymyr Ohryzko

    https://x.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1935048720275398795

    He’s finally discovered that he has no leverage over Ukraine.

    Make America Weak Again.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,926
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    It all comes back to Trump doesn't it?
    I'm no starry-eyed admirer of Trump, but Netanyahu is a lot worse.
    But Trump has orders of magnitude more capacity to damage the world and us. And not just through nukes: the world view that he and MAGA promote is intensely damaging.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,113
    edited June 18

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Encouraging for Kemi. If she can keep this up over the summer and get the Tories back to 25% she'll be safe this year.

    Labour waking up to another rousing chorus from the terraces of "You don't know what you're doing..."
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,144

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    What’s also little known is that (most) enrichment processes gets easier as you get to higher and higher grades.

    To get to 60% is a long slog. It’s taken them years. 60 to 80 will be much quicker. 80-90+ would be quite quick. Beyond 95%+ I think you hit diminishing returns - with most processes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,902
    ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,592
    DavidL said:

    I'm not sure why we should spend time and money protecting Israel. What's in it for us? I also don't think that Israel being immune to such attacks is a good thing. Such immunity leads to profoundly immoral results. Look at Gaza. It is probably good that, unlike the last time, the Iron Dome has proven to have a few cracks in it and there are consequences for Israel's actions.

    The leadership of Iran are appalling, particularly for Iranians, and I would welcome them gone but I think its generally a matter we should stay out of. There's a lot of things like this. We are not a great power any longer. We need to protect our interests but be much more focused on what those interests are.

    The support is surely in forming an alliance against Iran, which is in all our interests.

    I don't think the Israels need our help to defend them, and nor would they welcome it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,937

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    What’s also little known is that (most) enrichment processes gets easier as you get to higher and higher grades.

    To get to 60% is a long slog. It’s taken them years. 60 to 80 will be much quicker. 80-90+ would be quite quick. Beyond 95%+ I think you hit diminishing returns - with most processes.
    Does Iran have the capacity to deliver such a warhead?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    edited June 18

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Encouraging for Kemi. If she can keep this up over the summer and get the Tories back to 25% she'll be safe this year.

    Labour waking up to another rousing chorus from the terraces of "You don't know what you're doing..."
    Its obviously one poll only but its the highest Tory share since the Locals and their first time ahead of Labour since April.
    If labours drop repeats elsewhere then maybe the dam has burst. But as it is a chuckle for Weds morning
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,926
    I missed this:

    "Breaking: After 186 sessions over 3.5 years, a German court sentenced Dr. Alaa Mousa to life for crimes against humanity against patients in Syria for the Assad regime. He's one of many criminal medics who killed & tortured Syrians, including me. No safe haven, no impunity!"

    https://x.com/MansourOmari/status/1934540684414816277
    Also:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/16/german-court-sentences-syrian-doctor-alaa-mousa-to-life-in-jail-for-crimes-against-humanity
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,560
    Even if Iran were able, despite a lot of damaged facilities, to put together some form of nuclear device, it would have to have some method of delivering it; and with its missile systems under attack daily and (as far as I am aware) no reliable method of delivery disclosed, that looks like a very tall order.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,592
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    I'll post this again.

    This explains so much.

    Using AI makes you stupid, researchers find

    Study reveals chatbots risk hampering development of critical thinking, memory and language skills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/17/using-ai-makes-you-stupid-researchers-find/
    Surely it depends what you use it for. I just use it as a glorified search engine. Primarily recipes, home brewing and how do I fix a problem in the house.
    It's an Ask Jeeves that actually works.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,113

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    But then how many million Iranians die in Israel's over-the-top response? Iran would cease to exist as a state, its few remaining citizens having to leave their radioactively toxic land for whoever would take them and their terrible medical needs.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,546
    edited June 18
    ydoethur said:

    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    Can you? If I remember right last time we had this from Iran @Dura_Ace pointed out that the deep water channel tankers have to use *does* pass through Iran's territorial waters.

    I'm happy to be corrected, but just because it's blue doesn't mean it's navigable.
    The navigable channel in the centre of the strait is only 6,000m wide.

    Not that the legal niceties mean anything. If Iran wants to close it, they surely can.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,365
    edited June 18

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,507

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    But then how many million Iranians die in Israel's over-the-top response? Iran would cease to exist as a state, its few remaining citizens having to leave their radioactively toxic land for whoever would take them and their terrible medical needs.
    You’re talking about an ideological group that thinks things will be better for them after they die if they die the right way.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    But then how many million Iranians die in Israel's over-the-top response? Iran would cease to exist as a state, its few remaining citizens having to leave their radioactively toxic land for whoever would take them and their terrible medical needs.
    Indeed so. More worryingly the Samson doctrine means a lot of us get a dose
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,708

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    A very good poll for the Conservatives though with the caveat More In Common has been the "best" pollster for the Tories since the election but it echoes small improvements from other polls.

    As an example, at the end of March, the Conservatives led an MIC poll with 26% yet have been 16-17% with other pollsters so it may be the sampling and weighting used by MIC are different but as to whether they are "right", time will tell.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,546
    I've been away for a few days and can't be arsed to read everything but I assume our usual war mongering maniacs have been in full voice.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,059

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    I'll post this again.

    This explains so much.

    Using AI makes you stupid, researchers find

    Study reveals chatbots risk hampering development of critical thinking, memory and language skills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/17/using-ai-makes-you-stupid-researchers-find/
    Surely it depends what you use it for. I just use it as a glorified search engine. Primarily recipes, home brewing and how do I fix a problem in the house.
    It's an Ask Jeeves that actually works.
    I remember Ask Jeeves. It was shit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,113

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Encouraging for Kemi. If she can keep this up over the summer and get the Tories back to 25% she'll be safe this year.

    Labour waking up to another rousing chorus from the terraces of "You don't know what you're doing..."
    Its obviously one poll only but its the highest Tory share since the Locals and their first time ahead of Labour since April.
    If labours drop repeats elsewhere then maybe the dam has burst. But as it is a chuckle for Weds morning
    That 9% for the Greens is worthy of note too. Can they get close to delivering it - or does it evaporate on contact with a general election?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,392
    Sean_F said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    What’s also little known is that (most) enrichment processes gets easier as you get to higher and higher grades.

    To get to 60% is a long slog. It’s taken them years. 60 to 80 will be much quicker. 80-90+ would be quite quick. Beyond 95%+ I think you hit diminishing returns - with most processes.
    Does Iran have the capacity to deliver such a warhead?
    Currently looks like they would struggle to fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They are getting a tanking.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,059

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Labour will bounce back, now that we have the baby killing legislation.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,997

    DavidL said:

    I'm not sure why we should spend time and money protecting Israel. What's in it for us? I also don't think that Israel being immune to such attacks is a good thing. Such immunity leads to profoundly immoral results. Look at Gaza. It is probably good that, unlike the last time, the Iron Dome has proven to have a few cracks in it and there are consequences for Israel's actions.

    The leadership of Iran are appalling, particularly for Iranians, and I would welcome them gone but I think its generally a matter we should stay out of. There's a lot of things like this. We are not a great power any longer. We need to protect our interests but be much more focused on what those interests are.

    The support is surely in forming an alliance against Iran, which is in all our interests.

    I don't think the Israels need our help to defend them, and nor would they welcome it.
    So the UK should stop training IDF troops, supplying aircraft parts and surveillance flights over Gaza?
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,059
    Dura_Ace said:

    I've been away for a few days and can't be arsed to read everything but I assume our usual war mongering maniacs have been in full voice.

    We had a small break from it last night due to the abortion vote.

    But I’m sure we will be back on it today.

    I won’t. I’m off out to the toon.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,059
    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    But the Iranian dead would all be "martyrs". So that makes it OK in the minds of their nutjob leaders.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    edited June 18
    stodge said:

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    A very good poll for the Conservatives though with the caveat More In Common has been the "best" pollster for the Tories since the election but it echoes small improvements from other polls.

    As an example, at the end of March, the Conservatives led an MIC poll with 26% yet have been 16-17% with other pollsters so it may be the sampling and weighting used by MIC are different but as to whether they are "right", time will tell.
    MiC is one of their better pollsters, they use a redistribution of DKs model (it worked very well at the GE but will it with Reforms surge?). Survation and JL Partners seem to be a bit better for them too
    When they had that lead on 26 they were on 22 (-4) with Opinium that week and 21 (-5) with YouGov - same differences this week too so the various methodologies are pretty consistent!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Encouraging for Kemi. If she can keep this up over the summer and get the Tories back to 25% she'll be safe this year.

    Labour waking up to another rousing chorus from the terraces of "You don't know what you're doing..."
    Its obviously one poll only but its the highest Tory share since the Locals and their first time ahead of Labour since April.
    If labours drop repeats elsewhere then maybe the dam has burst. But as it is a chuckle for Weds morning
    That 9% for the Greens is worthy of note too. Can they get close to delivering it - or does it evaporate on contact with a general election?
    The worse Labour do the more chance of two figure Greenery
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,761
    edited June 18

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,144
    Sean_F said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    What’s also little known is that (most) enrichment processes gets easier as you get to higher and higher grades.

    To get to 60% is a long slog. It’s taken them years. 60 to 80 will be much quicker. 80-90+ would be quite quick. Beyond 95%+ I think you hit diminishing returns - with most processes.
    Does Iran have the capacity to deliver such a warhead?
    They *had* before this started, MRBMs with a range of a couple of thousand km, with warheads in the 1800kg range. Which would be a tight fit for the first nukes. But…

    An oft repeated mistake is to think that every country has to go through the Fat Man/Little Boy design route.

    Little Boy was initially designed to work with plutonium - the insertion speed for uranium is so low, you could do it by hand! So a modern gun type weapon would be much smaller than LB - a couple of hundred kilos would be possible. Mostly tungsten reflector. Length would be shorter. Easy fit on a missile. See South Africa, who did this.

    Fat Man was designed by guesswork - John Von Neumann basically invented implosion theory as they went. The second stage of design (Swan primary) was the late 1950s - air lenses and flying plates. Much, much lighter and smaller. This was enabled by better computers, and better testing tech - really high speed x-ray movie photography. The third stage was to turn the problem round - instead of imploding inward, perfectly symmetrically, start with an odd shape that ends up as a sphere. This took 1970s computers to work out.

    The final result is that a modern fission device is about the size of a bowling ball.

    To test implosion you dry fire it with natural uranium, or similar. The high speed X-ray machine gives you a movie if what happened.

    So - a modern gun type device would do the job. And requires no testing. See South Africa, which produced weapons small enough for missiles, without any real design effort. The main objection is the large amounts of fissile material they use - the material for one gun type weapon would make several implosion bombs.

    An implosion bomb would almost certainly start with a flying plate/air lens design. So that would be missile capable as well.

    So yes, the Iranians could deliver it. If their missiles still exist.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,997
    edited June 18

    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    But the Iranian dead would all be "martyrs". So that makes it OK in the minds of their nutjob leaders.
    Thank goodness the entirely sane folk that believe God gave them their land (and other people’s’ land) 4000 years ago are the only ones in charge of nukes in the Middle East.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    Lol, Starmer will get back from the G7 and be like 'what the f... have you done??' Lmao
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,708
    Morning all :)

    I assumed Tehran's pronouncement of an event "which should shake the world for centuries" would be Stodge finding a couple of winners at Royal Ascot....

    Day Two beckons and after a dramatic opening day, the pace slackens a notch but nonetheless...

    Queen Mary Stakes: SOCIETY MISS
    Queen's Vase: DEVIL'S ADVOCATE
    Duke of Cambridge Stakes: ONE LOOK
    Prince of Wales's Stakes: LOS ANGELES
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619

    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    But the Iranian dead would all be "martyrs". So that makes it OK in the minds of their nutjob leaders.
    Thank goodness the entirely sane folk that believe God gave them their land (and other people’s’ land) 4000 years ago are the only ones in charge of nukes in the Middle East.
    3300 years ago ;)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,708

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    One swallow doesn't make a summer and one poll doesn't make a general election winner - well, one did almost to this day six years ago but that was different. Time wounds all heels as a cobbler once told me and it's understandable for those who have had buyers' remorse over not voting for Sunak and Hunt last July, they might now see the blandishments of Reform for what they are and see the Conservatives as the answer though if they do, perhaps they should think about the question.

    It's a good poll for Badenoch and will calm nerves but it's one poll and while for Conservative sympathisers, any bit of good news after the last three years will be welcome, the road back remains a long and hard one.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,734

    Scott_xP said:

    Elon Musk once again outsmarted by his own AI engine

    https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3lru3xs5uqc2f

    I'll post this again.

    This explains so much.

    Using AI makes you stupid, researchers find

    Study reveals chatbots risk hampering development of critical thinking, memory and language skills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/17/using-ai-makes-you-stupid-researchers-find/
    Going by last night's exchange, when you posted this, one sensitive soul is going to have steam coming out of his ears.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,324
    on the abortion vote, I'm surprised all Reform UK MPs opposed the amendment. Shows them to be conservative more than libertarian, at least on this issue.

    I missed the chat on here yesterday; I would have voted in favour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,755

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    The best time to go to war is BEFORE a country has WMDs but when they are working towards it.

    That is the case with Iran.

    They don't have them yet, let's keep it that way!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,822
    edited June 18
    Good morning everyone.

    There are some nuances around the US Army's apparent slovenliness (aka "Malicious Compliance") on parade to be a mascot for Emperor Chump's vanity.

    One of the tunes played was "Fortunate Son" by Creedence Clearwater Revival - a song about draft dodging from 1969. Fuck you, Mr President.

    Nice one, US Army.

    Recognising pop music played on military parades is not my forte, and I picked this up from press. Though I do recognise Those Magnificent Men when used to wind up the RAF when they are drilling, which is the correct beat, but distracting.

    Deep link to the Whitehouse stream of the event:
    https://youtu.be/LTH9p7Gl5ME?t=5138

    Recording:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA

    Lyrics:
    Some folks are born made to wave the flag
    Ooh, they're red, white and blue
    And when the band plays "Hail to the chief"
    Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no senator's son, son
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no

    Some folks are born silver spoon in hand
    Lord, don't they help themselves, oh
    But when the taxman comes to the door
    Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no

    Some folks inherit star spangled eyes
    Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord
    And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
    Ooh, they only answer "More! More! More!" yoh

    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no military son, son
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, one

    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no no no
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate son, no no no
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,755
    Stocky said:

    on the abortion vote, I'm surprised all Reform UK MPs opposed the amendment. Shows them to be conservative more than libertarian, at least on this issue.

    I missed the chat on here yesterday; I would have voted in favour.

    I'm not surprised, they've never been libertarian, just the bastardised US version of the word.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,755
    stodge said:

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    One swallow doesn't make a summer
    but two makes a girlfriend.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,180
    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    How does that matter for a leadership that literally gives no fucks about their own people though? Millions dead in Iran? Blame Israel/US/UK as necessary not the fact they used a first strike nuke. The worst part is that the Islamist supporting media will lap it up just as they have lapped up Hamas propaganda for the past two years.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,619
    edited June 18
    stodge said:

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    One swallow doesn't make a summer and one poll doesn't make a general election winner - well, one did almost to this day six years ago but that was different. Time wounds all heels as a cobbler once told me and it's understandable for those who have had buyers' remorse over not voting for Sunak and Hunt last July, they might now see the blandishments of Reform for what they are and see the Conservatives as the answer though if they do, perhaps they should think about the question.

    It's a good poll for Badenoch and will calm nerves but it's one poll and while for Conservative sympathisers, any bit of good news after the last three years will be welcome, the road back remains a long and hard one.
    Very long hard road indeed. I was thinking a couple of days ago about political deal or no deal, what offer would parties 'bank' for GE 29 if offered.....
    I guess for Tories any number of seats if they remain HM loyal Oppo or perhaps if raw numbers 150? Any less and the old born to rule arrogance kicks in and theyd roll the dice.
    I reckon the LDs would bank at 60
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,647

    F1: The Movie – Brad Pitt’s spectacular racing drama is Barbie for dads
    Thrilling action scenes and a puppyishly charming leading man turn this officially branded Formula One film into rousing entertainment

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/f1-the-movie-review-brad-pitt/

    That will keep @Morris_Dancer quiet for a couple of hours.

    Not planning on watching it. I hardly ever go to the cinema and watching pretend F1 rather than actual F1 just doesn't seem appealing.

    F1: pushed for time but contemplating backing Russell each way at 8 in Austria. Still concerned over the power unit.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,864
    ydoethur said:

    moonshine said:

    Hmmmmm, looks like the crafty Iranians are doing a semi closure in Hormuz - no tankers without Iranian permission to pass through the strait for 100 days

    How does that work when you can avoid Iranian territorial waters
    Can you? If I remember right last time we had this from Iran @Dura_Ace pointed out that the deep water channel tankers have to use *does* pass through Iran's territorial waters.

    I'm happy to be corrected, but just because it's blue doesn't mean it's navigable.
    And yet Brent is down this morning.
  • vikvik Posts: 515
    The numbers in the poll regarding joint military action with Israel would change rapidly if Trump (and maybe Starmer too?) did an actual "sales job" to sell the war to the US & UK publics.

    50% of Americans consider Iran to be an "enemy" of the US and an additional 25% consider it unfriendly.

    36% of Americans consider Israel to be an "ally" of the US and an additional 25% consider it friendly.

    It shouldn't be too hard for a half-competent leader (even Trump) to sell Americans on the need to support their "ally" to defend itself against the mutual "enemy".

    https://thehill.com/policy/international/5355706-half-in-new-survey-view-iran-as-enemy-to-us/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,902

    watching pretend F1 rather than actual F1 just doesn't seem appealing.

    Seems more appealing

    A fully scripted drama has more jeopardy and intrigue than the average F1 procession
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,755

    ydoethur said:

    Thing is, this isn't weapons of mass destruction. It's about Netanyahu's need to shore up his right flank to secure his government so it doesn't collapse (the TLDR version is because Ben-Gvir is basically a mad racist, and he's not even the worst of them). The moment it does he will end up in prison.

    There might be legitimate reasons to attack Iran, particularly since we all know it's behind Hamas, Hezbollah and is closely linked to Russia. Saving the career and freedom of a tenth rate Fascist crook is not one of them.

    Should Bibi attack himself for historically suring up Hamas and Hezbollah as agents of discord in the Palestinian territories?
    Yes.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    It was wrong to support Hamas in the past.

    It is right to attack Hamas today.

    Some people seem to think that Netanyahu was wrong to tolerate Hamas and wrong to attack them, there's no consistency there.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,719
    DavidL said:

    I'm not sure why we should spend time and money protecting Israel. What's in it for us? I also don't think that Israel being immune to such attacks is a good thing. Such immunity leads to profoundly immoral results. Look at Gaza. It is probably good that, unlike the last time, the Iron Dome has proven to have a few cracks in it and there are consequences for Israel's actions.

    The leadership of Iran are appalling, particularly for Iranians, and I would welcome them gone but I think its generally a matter we should stay out of. There's a lot of things like this. We are not a great power any longer. We need to protect our interests but be much more focused on what those interests are.

    There was a nuclear deal with Iran. Trump blew it up, likely because Obama negotiated it. Now Iran has every incentive to develop a nuclear weapon to make the attacks stop.

    Why would Iran trust Trump and Netanyahu to keep to a deal? Netanyahu is calling for regime change anyway.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,997
    edited June 18
    MaxPB said:

    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    How does that matter for a leadership that literally gives no fucks about their own people though? Millions dead in Iran? Blame Israel/US/UK as necessary not the fact they used a first strike nuke. The worst part is that the Islamist supporting media will lap it up just as they have lapped up Hamas propaganda for the past two years.
    Propaganda is an insidious thing.
    For example those simps who were hook, line and sinkered over the 'Minnesota shooter is a Dem' bullshit...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,017

    MaxPB said:

    Ratters said:

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    They have, according to the various international agencies, 400Kg of 60% enriched uranium. And are trying to enrich it to 80%

    You can build a bomb out of 60%, though the efficiency would be rubbish and you’d probably get a yield of a kiloton or so.

    Little know fact - the Hiroshima bomb, which yielded 16Kt was (average) enriched to about 80%. The enrichment in different parts of the bullet and target actually varied.

    But, analysis shows it was designed for 92% enriched material. Which would have give a yield of about 32Kt.

    There is little documentation of who made the decision to “go early” - but the yield/enrichment was a frequently discussed by Oppenheimer and Groves.

    A 16 kiloton warhead would wipe out Tel Aviv. Nukemap has it at 100,000 deaths and 250,000 injured on an airburst
    Of course we don't want Iran to have nukes, but does MAD not apply here as well?

    If Iran used a nuke on Israel, or was suspected to have done so, then Tehran would be destroyed in pretty short order.
    How does that matter for a leadership that literally gives no fucks about their own people though? Millions dead in Iran? Blame Israel/US/UK as necessary not the fact they used a first strike nuke. The worst part is that the Islamist supporting media will lap it up just as they have lapped up Hamas propaganda for the past two years.
    Propaganda is an insidious thing.
    For example those simps who were hook, line and sinkered over the 'Minnesota shooter is a Dem' bullshit...
    "Independent sources".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,606
    Looks like everyone is sick of Israel lol.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,285

    F1: The Movie – Brad Pitt’s spectacular racing drama is Barbie for dads
    Thrilling action scenes and a puppyishly charming leading man turn this officially branded Formula One film into rousing entertainment

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/f1-the-movie-review-brad-pitt/

    That will keep @Morris_Dancer quiet for a couple of hours.

    Not planning on watching it. I hardly ever go to the cinema and watching pretend F1 rather than actual F1 just doesn't seem appealing.

    F1: pushed for time but contemplating backing Russell each way at 8 in Austria. Still concerned over the power unit.
    Surely you have watched “Rush”. Fantastic film about F1, well really a character study of James Hunt/Nikki Lauder but still F1.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,718
    "A single ticket-holder from Ireland has won the 250 million euro EuroMillions jackpot, the Irish National Lottery said.
    Ireland's lottery said it was the "biggest ever EuroMillions jackpot," and its chief executive said it would reveal the winning location soon. The winning numbers from Tuesday's draw - which had rolled over several times - were 13, 22, 23, 44 and 49, with lucky stars 3 and 5."

    https://news.sky.com/story/single-ticket-holder-from-ireland-wins-euromillions-jackpot-13385031
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,755
    That as many as a quarter of the population support doing the right thing is more than I'd expect actually.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,708

    stodge said:

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    One swallow doesn't make a summer and one poll doesn't make a general election winner - well, one did almost to this day six years ago but that was different. Time wounds all heels as a cobbler once told me and it's understandable for those who have had buyers' remorse over not voting for Sunak and Hunt last July, they might now see the blandishments of Reform for what they are and see the Conservatives as the answer though if they do, perhaps they should think about the question.

    It's a good poll for Badenoch and will calm nerves but it's one poll and while for Conservative sympathisers, any bit of good news after the last three years will be welcome, the road back remains a long and hard one.
    Very long hard road indeed. I was thinking a couple of days ago about political deal or no deal, what offer would parties 'bank' for GE 29 if offered.....
    I guess for Tories any number of seats if they remain HM loyal Oppo or perhaps if raw numbers 150? Any less and the old born to rule arrogance kicks in and theyd roll the dice.
    I reckon the LDs would bank at 60
    I think I'd rather try and find the winners of the Hunt Cup, Britannia and the Wokingham in a treble than try to predict the next GE. I could see the LDs anywhere from 20 to 120 to be honest and the Conservatives anywhere from 30 to 200.

    I have no clue what is going to happen between now and 2028 or even 2029 (and let's be honest, the latter is probably more likely for Starmer and Labour at this moment). The current anti-Labour hysteria has echoes of the anti-Conservative hysteria of 1980-81. Governing is tough and an impatient electorate has little patience if they don't feel things are improving.

    I don't have the visceral contempt for Starmer and Labour many on here do - I don't think he's doing much better or worse than Sunak - indeed, I'm thinking less of how much has changed but how little. Boris showed where charisma and levitas will take you but technocratic gravitas also has its limitations.

    I do think performances like that of Emma Reynolds on LBC are part of the problem - you cannot go into the lion's den with an "Eat Me" sign round your neck which is basically what she did. You have to be combative and confident and that comes from a full understanding of your brief and the questions likely to be asked. You can't "wing it" with Nick Ferrari, who even lost patience when Tories tried to in the hope he would be sympathetic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,718
    "Northamptonshire Police has admitted it failed Harry Dunn and his family after a report found officers prioritised the welfare of the suspect in the case over the investigation.

    The 19-year-old died in 2019 after US state department employee Anne Sacoolas – who was driving a car on the wrong side of the road – hit his motorbike near RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire.

    However, Sacoolas was not immediately arrested following the crash and was able to flee the country, claiming diplomatic immunity, because police did not believe a "necessity test" had been met."

    https://news.sky.com/story/police-admit-failures-in-harry-dunn-case-after-report-finds-officers-prioritised-suspects-welfare-13385168
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,820
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,820
    Stocky said:

    on the abortion vote, I'm surprised all Reform UK MPs opposed the amendment. Shows them to be conservative more than libertarian, at least on this issue.

    I missed the chat on here yesterday; I would have voted in favour.

    80% opposed, but Farage abstained (or was absent).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,997
    Andy_JS said:

    "Northamptonshire Police has admitted it failed Harry Dunn and his family after a report found officers prioritised the welfare of the suspect in the case over the investigation.

    The 19-year-old died in 2019 after US state department employee Anne Sacoolas – who was driving a car on the wrong side of the road – hit his motorbike near RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire.

    However, Sacoolas was not immediately arrested following the crash and was able to flee the country, claiming diplomatic immunity, because police did not believe a "necessity test" had been met."

    https://news.sky.com/story/police-admit-failures-in-harry-dunn-case-after-report-finds-officers-prioritised-suspects-welfare-13385168

    'Starmer must explain'
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,820

    Are we all in awe of the major event that we would be talking about for centuries that Iran promised yesterday?
    It appears to have been a few wind up drones and a couple of missiles. There is no way these jokers have WMDs of any type

    The best time to go to war is BEFORE a country has WMDs but when they are working towards it.

    That is the case with Iran.

    They don't have them yet, let's keep it that way!
    So, you're saying we should have attacked Israel in 1965?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,606
    edited June 18

    Crossover Klaxon with More in Common

    Our latest voting intention has a Labour drop to third with joint lowest score we’ve recorded for them. Reform lead by 7.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (+1)
    🌳 CON 22% (+2)
    🌹 LAB 21% (-3)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (-1)
    🌍 GREEN 9% (+2)
    🟡 SNP 3% (nc)

    N = 2,032 | Dates: 13 - 16 June | Change w 9 June

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Edit: I said it yesterday (or perhaps didn't?) Kemi is having a good war on the issue. She is doing it right and coming into her own.
    Nice to see Labour copping it tbh - as good as Kemi might be, again it's another issue involving over aa decade of Tory failure. That's their problem on this, and other issues.

    Also I can't believe the economists didn't seem to notice the chocolate price shock currently rumbling through shops and into the CPI basket. Really poor result considering how benign oil prices are (How much longer we shall see) and the relative strength of sterling compared to May 2024.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,647
    Scott_xP said:

    watching pretend F1 rather than actual F1 just doesn't seem appealing.

    Seems more appealing

    A fully scripted drama has more jeopardy and intrigue than the average F1 procession
    Yep, nothing dramatic happened at the end of the last two races.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,647
    boulay said:

    F1: The Movie – Brad Pitt’s spectacular racing drama is Barbie for dads
    Thrilling action scenes and a puppyishly charming leading man turn this officially branded Formula One film into rousing entertainment

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/f1-the-movie-review-brad-pitt/

    That will keep @Morris_Dancer quiet for a couple of hours.

    Not planning on watching it. I hardly ever go to the cinema and watching pretend F1 rather than actual F1 just doesn't seem appealing.

    F1: pushed for time but contemplating backing Russell each way at 8 in Austria. Still concerned over the power unit.
    Surely you have watched “Rush”. Fantastic film about F1, well really a character study of James Hunt/Nikki Lauder but still F1.
    That's a fair point. I'm reasonably sure I've seen that and liked it.

    Anyway, back to this 'working', which I've decided is perverse. It's both annoying to have it and annoying to not have it.
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