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By-election betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,694

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    Pfft tinfoil hats dont work, if conspiracy theorist minded people had any common sense they would realise that if the cia had mind control rays the first thing they would do if tinfoil hats blocked it would be to ensure companies that make tin foil includes micro holes in the tin foil to let the rays through
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,996
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,554

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388

    @williamglenn at what point did you become an anarcho capitalist lunatic?

    I'm not an anarcho capitalist. You need a strong state to do things like protecting the borders and executing criminals.
    This is what most people want imo. They want authoritarianism for criminals, and libertarianism for everyone else. At the moment, it's more like the other way round.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    If its my personal facebook account and I have never mentioned the company on it how is it bringing them into disrepute?
    Depends on your role in the company and equally if they want an excuse to get rid of you
    Ah so its only an unfair sacking if I am important
    He actually means the opposite. That you’re more likely to get sacked if you have a higher profile
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,454
    Andy_JS said:

    DavidL said:

    England making 246 off 40 overs look at least 100 runs short.

    Do you mean Windies?
    Yes, the Windies total is nowhere near competitive as it turns out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,694

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    Because if everyone did that no women would get jobs if aged between 22 to about 45.
    So all this stuff about it being in the companies' own interest is a lie?
    More than one thing can be true at the same time. It can be in a company's interest not to be discriminatory, and to the advantage of other employees, and to wide society.

    In fact, it can be a win-win-win.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    edited June 3

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t pay their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,339
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the previous thread, there was a discussion about why we don't have more pumped storage.

    And the answer is that there actually aren't that many suitable sites. You need to have two reservoirs that are very close, of sufficient size, and which have enough vertical drop between them.

    That's a pretty rare combination.

    They also take up a lot of space, are not inexpensive to build, are more convenient if they are close to existing intermittent power sources (and ideally demand) so as to avoid the need to build out transmission capacity, and are far from maintenance free.

    Plus they often involve having to compulsory purchase order a bunch of people's property, because the chance that all the space is going to belong to a single landowner is really small.

    The pumped storage schemes I mentioned in the Highlands use existing lochs (Ness and Awe) as the lower reservoir. You need to build the upper reservoirs, which are about 1km wide, on the mountain tops, land has no economic value. Drop is 500m. They are close to existing power lines that are being upgraded to handle additional wind farms. They are definitely expensive to build, but on current estimates a fraction of Hinckley C and probably more useful.
    You ask @malcolmg what he thinks of despoiling those landscapes.
    Technically, they're quite attractive...
    Nigel , exactly , typical opinion from someone far away happy to despoil other people's lives just for their benefit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    On the other hand, if a crime is committed and you are a potential suspect, you might find it harder to prove where you were - or were not.
    I don't need to prove where I was, its the prosecutions job to prove I was there....its called innocent till proven guilty
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,554

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,072
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    On the other hand, if a crime is committed and you are a potential suspect, you might find it harder to prove where you were - or were not.
    I don't need to prove where I was, its the prosecutions job to prove I was there....its called innocent till proven guilty
    That's really funny.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    Jesus didn't sacrifice himself though according to your bible he was up and about 3 days later so he at most sacrificed a weekend, hell I have slept in longer than that after a good party
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,339

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t pay their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    Looks like PB has more than it's fair share of dickheads given the claptrap on this.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,072
    Andy_JS said:

    @williamglenn at what point did you become an anarcho capitalist lunatic?

    I'm not an anarcho capitalist. You need a strong state to do things like protecting the borders and executing criminals.
    This is what most people want imo. They want authoritarianism for criminals, and libertarianism for everyone else. At the moment, it's more like the other way round.
    Human beings want to be able to do everything they want, without restriction. But they also want everybody else to be restricted so they can only do things that don't displease them.

    In other words, humans are massive fucking hypocrites.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,899
    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,554

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    If its my personal facebook account and I have never mentioned the company on it how is it bringing them into disrepute?
    Depends on your role in the company and equally if they want an excuse to get rid of you
    Ah so its only an unfair sacking if I am important
    He actually means the opposite. That you’re more likely to get sacked if you have a higher profile
    Oh do give over, I have worked for many companies where senior people have blotted their copybooks far more than a face book post. They don't get sacked they get moved and if the person raising the issue was an employee to no ones surprise they are the ones that get removed one way or the other
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    edited June 3

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Is it beyond your grasp of reality that women might want to work?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,986

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    On the other hand, if a crime is committed and you are a potential suspect, you might find it harder to prove where you were - or were not.
    I don't need to prove where I was, its the prosecutions job to prove I was there....its called innocent till proven guilty
    That's really funny.
    Well I am talking theoretically here naturally we all know you are guilty if the police arrested you
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,041
    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DavidL said:

    England making 246 off 40 overs look at least 100 runs short.

    Do you mean Windies?
    Yes, the Windies total is nowhere near competitive as it turns out.
    One a ball isn't enough in any limited overs format unless the pitch is a dog
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,041

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Women's lib was the greatest cash cow ever
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Women's lib was the greatest cash cow ever
    It was certainly highly profitable for bra manufacturers as after they burnt them they found unfettered boobs caused back pain and sagging and had to be replaced
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,523
    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,072

    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    It's more accurate to say that certain US states are attempting to get this data, and the Federal government isn't intervening to prevent them.

    However, I appreciate they end up being much the same thing.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,041

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Is it beyond your grasp of reality that women might want to work?
    I think the point is that the concept of 'want' was hijacked by government to become 'need to' so they could enjoy double tax take from all families
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,601
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    And if some kid decides to switch off all the electric to your house will you be equally happy because they are developing these hacks as we speak
    If so SSE will deal with it and we are vulnerable customers anyway
    If they do a hack on SSE meters then there is likely nothing the company can do it will likely be a ransomware attack where they turn off half a million homes and demand payment else they won't turn them back on. You are being very naive about the danger sorry
    To be honest if we were as cynical as you we would go back to the 1950s
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,554

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Is it beyond your grasp of reality that women might want to work?
    Some do, but the problem with the economy now is that they *have to* because of the aforementioned two-income trap. It serves the interests of capitalists more than the interests of society.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    And if some kid decides to switch off all the electric to your house will you be equally happy because they are developing these hacks as we speak
    If so SSE will deal with it and we are vulnerable customers anyway
    If they do a hack on SSE meters then there is likely nothing the company can do it will likely be a ransomware attack where they turn off half a million homes and demand payment else they won't turn them back on. You are being very naive about the danger sorry
    To be honest if we were as cynical as you we would go back to the 1950s
    Alternatively you could look at it as most people who actually work in software when asked if they would consider a smart meter go hell no because we know how unsafe they actually are

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    edited June 3

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Is it beyond your grasp of reality that women might want to work?
    Some do, but the problem with the economy now is that they *have to* because of the aforementioned two-income trap. It serves the interests of capitalists more than the interests of society.
    Your plan to put people out of work in order to depress costs is an insane way to go about making life more affordable as it would cause no end of pain and suffering for a generation before it helped, if it even did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,936
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    Jesus didn't sacrifice himself though according to your bible he was up and about 3 days later so he at most sacrificed a weekend, hell I have slept in longer than that after a good party
    The resurrection is a sign God accepted his sacrifice and that Jesus had conquered death so also offering eternal life and salvation with him
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,986
    This would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago, yet the data is unequivocal: the world at large now has an overwhelmingly more positive opinion of China than of the United States, with 79% of the world's countries favoring China.

    This data was compiled based on a survey of 111,273 people in 100 countries by the Alliance of Democracies Foundation, founded by former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Needless to say, not exactly an organization with a pro-China bias 😏

    Here are the findings:
    - 79% of the world's countries favor China versus the U.S.
    - Fascinatingly, this is even the case among countries classified in the survey as "democracies" (as opposed to "authoritarian") who also favor China on average, particularly in Western Europe
    - China is now the only great power among the three with a net positive image, while the U.S. and Russia are both viewed more negatively than positively
    - The U.S. in particular has seen a sharp decline in its global standing over the past year, while perceptions of China and Russia have steadily improved..

    https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1929513923373604898
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    Jesus didn't sacrifice himself though according to your bible he was up and about 3 days later so he at most sacrificed a weekend, hell I have slept in longer than that after a good party
    The resurrection is a sign God accepted his sacrifice and that Jesus had conquered death so also offering eternal life and salvation with him
    Or just a sign he was the original zombie
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,936

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    Whatever his sexuality was he was celibate
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,072
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    Jesus didn't sacrifice himself though according to your bible he was up and about 3 days later so he at most sacrificed a weekend, hell I have slept in longer than that after a good party
    The resurrection is a sign God accepted his sacrifice and that Jesus had conquered death so also offering eternal life and salvation with him
    Or it's a sign that he was pulled down off the cross before he was properly dead.

    But definitely one of the two.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    That was a rubbish second half from England. Every time their defenders should have cleared the ball properly they tried doing clever little passes to each other and lost the ball.
  • a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    Wait, Pagan is pregnant?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    Whatever his sexuality was he was celibate
    It was never mentioned either way, you just like to think so but lets face it he spent a lot of time with a known prostitute
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762

    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    Wait, Pagan is pregnant?
    I can confirm I am not pregnant if I was I could probably sell that story to so many papers I would never need to work again
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Pagan2 said:

    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    Wait, Pagan is pregnant?
    I can confirm I am not pregnant if I was I could probably sell that story to so many papers I would never need to work again
    On a serious note however the us authorities are using and have for several years warrentless geo fenced phone records to get suspect lists
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,986
    Anger as Oxford rail line classed as England and Wales project

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxyr75gk1vo
    There is anger that a multi-billion pound project to build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge has been classed as an England and Wales project.
    The £6.6bn line will see no tracks laid in Wales but, because of the way it has been classified, the country will not benefit from any extra cash.
    David Chadwick, Liberal Democrat MP for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, told BBC Radio Wales Breakfast it was "HS2 all over again", while former Welsh Labour transport minister Lee Waters called for Westminster colleagues to "fix" the system.
    The UK government said the project is being financed through its "rail network enhancements pipeline", which it said was also funding schemes in Wales.
    Under pressure over the issue in the Senedd, Wales' First Minister Eluned Morgan defended the decision but said Wales was not getting its "fair share" of rail cash...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    Wait, Pagan is pregnant?
    I can confirm I am not pregnant if I was I could probably sell that story to so many papers I would never need to work again
    On a serious note however the us authorities are using and have for several years warrentless geo fenced phone records to get suspect lists
    eg
    https://www.techdirt.com/2024/01/16/bulk-suspicion-typo-in-geofence-warrant-created-two-mile-long-dragnet/
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,751
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,986
    Q: Does the White House have a reaction to the election results in South Korea?

    WH Press Secretary Leavitt: “Yes, we do. In fact, Let me find it for you. It should be somewhere here. Thank you. Um. We do not.”

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1929961717414449398
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Andy_JS said:

    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".

    You read the sunday times magazine....so middle class
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,751
    Rishi will be chuffed. RCB win the IPL.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    Nigelb said:

    Anger as Oxford rail line classed as England and Wales project

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxyr75gk1vo
    There is anger that a multi-billion pound project to build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge has been classed as an England and Wales project.
    The £6.6bn line will see no tracks laid in Wales but, because of the way it has been classified, the country will not benefit from any extra cash.
    David Chadwick, Liberal Democrat MP for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, told BBC Radio Wales Breakfast it was "HS2 all over again", while former Welsh Labour transport minister Lee Waters called for Westminster colleagues to "fix" the system.
    The UK government said the project is being financed through its "rail network enhancements pipeline", which it said was also funding schemes in Wales.
    Under pressure over the issue in the Senedd, Wales' First Minister Eluned Morgan defended the decision but said Wales was not getting its "fair share" of rail cash...

    Are English railways not also used by Welsh people?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Nigelb said:

    Q: Does the White House have a reaction to the election results in South Korea?

    WH Press Secretary Leavitt: “Yes, we do. In fact, Let me find it for you. It should be somewhere here. Thank you. Um. We do not.”

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1929961717414449398

    See wrong question...should have been two

    1) did the white house realise there was an election outside america?
    2) did the white house know where and what the result was?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,523
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anger as Oxford rail line classed as England and Wales project

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxyr75gk1vo
    There is anger that a multi-billion pound project to build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge has been classed as an England and Wales project.
    The £6.6bn line will see no tracks laid in Wales but, because of the way it has been classified, the country will not benefit from any extra cash.
    David Chadwick, Liberal Democrat MP for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, told BBC Radio Wales Breakfast it was "HS2 all over again", while former Welsh Labour transport minister Lee Waters called for Westminster colleagues to "fix" the system.
    The UK government said the project is being financed through its "rail network enhancements pipeline", which it said was also funding schemes in Wales.
    Under pressure over the issue in the Senedd, Wales' First Minister Eluned Morgan defended the decision but said Wales was not getting its "fair share" of rail cash...

    Are English railways not also used by Welsh people?
    Only if they sit at the back of the train
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    "Home Office accused of 'dog ate my homework' excuse as it blames good weather for record migrant crossings"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/weather-blame-record-migrant-crossings-home-office-number-people-boats-b1230985.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,855
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    Jesus didn't sacrifice himself though according to your bible he was up and about 3 days later so he at most sacrificed a weekend, hell I have slept in longer than that after a good party
    The resurrection is a sign God accepted his sacrifice and that Jesus had conquered death so also offering eternal life and salvation with him
    What sort of sacrifice is it if he knew he would be resurrected?

    The doctrine of substitutionary atonement makes no sense.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,222
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,631
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    MTGG
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
    Angel Delight?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,855
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
    We despise them because of some random made up post on a blog site?

    I know you have a low threshold for despising people, but even so!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,222

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
    Angel Delight?
    Gotta ask the chef for that. When he's off duty.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
    We despise them because of some random made up post on a blog site?

    I know you have a low threshold for despising people, but even so!
    Well being fair its not just a random blog post I have also been seeing what they did for the last 40 years
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,693
    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    Politeness should never be anything to do with the law or legal system. It should be customary. You know something is going badly wrong when politicians/the legal system starts trying to do so.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,557
    Andy_JS said:

    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".

    That's an odd collection of sentences.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,222
    kjh said:

    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.

    The Mosque-Cathedral in Cordoba is one of the best places I've ever been. Plan to spend a while there.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 983

    Got a feeling I'm going to enjoy this week's issue:


    Why exactly? Is it really that difficult to leave the gays to celebrate their own thing and get on with your own life. If it's because of all of the corporate posturing on social media i agree with that but I can tell you that I and no other gay person I know asked for that.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,745
    kjh said:

    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.

    I'm not sure that'll the case, we never offered discounts to over 65s when we were in the EU. You have to get a Senior Railcard. Romania offers it to Romanian pensioners. Some places you can still show proof of age.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,506
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anger as Oxford rail line classed as England and Wales project

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxyr75gk1vo
    There is anger that a multi-billion pound project to build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge has been classed as an England and Wales project.
    The £6.6bn line will see no tracks laid in Wales but, because of the way it has been classified, the country will not benefit from any extra cash.
    David Chadwick, Liberal Democrat MP for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, told BBC Radio Wales Breakfast it was "HS2 all over again", while former Welsh Labour transport minister Lee Waters called for Westminster colleagues to "fix" the system.
    The UK government said the project is being financed through its "rail network enhancements pipeline", which it said was also funding schemes in Wales.
    Under pressure over the issue in the Senedd, Wales' First Minister Eluned Morgan defended the decision but said Wales was not getting its "fair share" of rail cash...

    Are English railways not also used by Welsh people?
    Only if they sit at the back of the train
    That's where you'll normally find Leigh Halfpenny.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,631
    edited June 3
    Does anyone have any gen on how our Reform Councils are doing? I'm seeing a few things coming loose.

    When I least heard hit-the-ground-running Kent and Notts have cancelled/postponed all of the first month's committee meetings, except perhaps one in Kent.

    The DOGE free audit team includes Arron Banks and a man called Nathaniel Fried. Officers who do not comply are threatened with disciplinary action. This looks important; they have demanded access to all sorts of internal documents, including supplier contracts, whistleblower reports etc.. I'm not sure what happens to staff if they point out that something proposed for the team to do is unlawful.
    https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/396-governance-news/61123-reform-uk-says-officers-who-obstruct-internal-review-team-sent-into-county-council-will-be-guilty-of-gross-misconduct

    They all seem to be deprioritising supervision of flood defences, rolling the committees into "Environment". Is it too woke (whatever woke means today?) Good luck with that one in Lincs when it floods.

    And the leader of Lincs had a slightly car crash interview from the BBC. "Is it pro bono?" - "No, it's for free." I Can't find a vid of the whole thing, which had him not knowing anything which could be cut, RefUK having declared that there were a lot of things.
    Excerpt: https://x.com/Parody_PM/status/1929857141025735028
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,693
    carnforth said:

    kjh said:

    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.

    The Mosque-Cathedral in Cordoba is one of the best places I've ever been. Plan to spend a while there.
    Been there done that today. You are correct. Fabulous.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,222
    edited June 3

    kjh said:

    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.

    I'm not sure that'll the case, we never offered discounts to over 65s when we were in the EU. You have to get a Senior Railcard. Romania offers it to Romanian pensioners. Some places you can still show proof of age.
    It's on residence not nationality, normally.

    Having said that, there are some tourist attractions in Spain, for example the Royal palace in Madrid, which are free to EU citizens:

    https://www.patrimonionacional.es/en/tarifa-gratuita-palacio-real-de-madrid

    So there are some Brexit changes.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,097
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".

    That's an odd collection of sentences.
    Curiously, I was thinking earlier of a TV advert from, it must have been, the early 1990s. It featured an attractive blonde woman walking down the street, and the joke was she didn't get leers and catcalls from the group of hard-hatted workmen who were milling about as she passed. That sort of behaviour was commonplace back then, but I can't say I've seen it for many years. Bit depressing that elements of the British Right are now openly advocating a return to such oafishness.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,858
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
    'Despise' is quite a strong word. Do you really despise them? I sometimes find myself disappointed, annoyed, exasperated, etc. But despise - no.

    Jimmy Saville - yes. That schoolteacher I remember who locked a pupil in a cupboard, forgot about them, then when they remembered opened the door and shouted so loudly in their ear and clapped them with a wooden ruler that they literally burst the pupils ear-drum - yes.

    (The schoolteacher in question went on to become a Tory MP - but that's not what I despise them for)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,041
    MattW said:

    Does anyone have any gen on how our Reform Councils are doing?

    When I least heard hit-the-ground-running Kent and Notts have cancelled/postponed all of the first month's committee meetings, except perhaps one in Kent.

    The DOGE free audit team includes Arron Banks and a man called Nathaniel Fried. Officers who do not comply are threatened with disciplinary action. This looks important; they have demanded access to all sorts of internal documents, including supplier contracts, whistleblower reports etc.. I'm not sure what happens to staff if they point out that something proposed for the team to do is unlawful.
    https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/396-governance-news/61123-reform-uk-says-officers-who-obstruct-internal-review-team-sent-into-county-council-will-be-guilty-of-gross-misconduct

    They all seem to be deprioritising supervision of flood defences, rolling the committees into "Environment". Is it too woke (whatever woke means today?) Good luck with that one in Lincs when it floods.

    And the leader of Lincs had a slightly car crash interview from the BBC. "Is it pro bono?" - "No, it's for free." Excerpt:
    https://x.com/Parody_PM/status/1929857141025735028

    Reform councils will end up getting sued for several times more than they manage to save in all likelihood
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,693
    edited June 3

    kjh said:

    Seville done. Cordoba now. Spanish trains are excellent.

    If you are over 65 you can't get the senior discounts in the EU (another Brexit benefit). Italy enforce it, Spaniards don't seem to care, which is handy. Got into lots of places cheap.

    I'm not sure that'll the case, we never offered discounts to over 65s when we were in the EU. You have to get a Senior Railcard. Romania offers it to Romanian pensioners. Some places you can still show proof of age.
    Not talking about trains. Talking about sight seeing and the discounts are big both in Italy and Spain if you are an old codger and an EU citizen. Italy enforces the EU membership rules, Spain doesn't. Saved a fortune over the last few days. Not in Italy though last month.

    PS I can see why you thought I was talking about trains. No sadly you need to buy a card for that, which is probably worthwhile, but I couldn't be bothered.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,631
    edited June 3

    MattW said:

    Does anyone have any gen on how our Reform Councils are doing?

    When I least heard hit-the-ground-running Kent and Notts have cancelled/postponed all of the first month's committee meetings, except perhaps one in Kent.

    The DOGE free audit team includes Arron Banks and a man called Nathaniel Fried. Officers who do not comply are threatened with disciplinary action. This looks important; they have demanded access to all sorts of internal documents, including supplier contracts, whistleblower reports etc.. I'm not sure what happens to staff if they point out that something proposed for the team to do is unlawful.
    https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/396-governance-news/61123-reform-uk-says-officers-who-obstruct-internal-review-team-sent-into-county-council-will-be-guilty-of-gross-misconduct

    They all seem to be deprioritising supervision of flood defences, rolling the committees into "Environment". Is it too woke (whatever woke means today?) Good luck with that one in Lincs when it floods.

    And the leader of Lincs had a slightly car crash interview from the BBC. "Is it pro bono?" - "No, it's for free." Excerpt:
    https://x.com/Parody_PM/status/1929857141025735028

    Reform councils will end up getting sued for several times more than they manage to save in all likelihood
    Yes, but I don't want my community laid waste to evidence that they do not have any idea. Ashfield Indies at least have local loyalty, rather than being micromanaged from Farage's office in London.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
    'Despise' is quite a strong word. Do you really despise them? I sometimes find myself disappointed, annoyed, exasperated, etc. But despise - no.

    Jimmy Saville - yes. That schoolteacher I remember who locked a pupil in a cupboard, forgot about them, then when they remembered opened the door and shouted so loudly in their ear and clapped them with a wooden ruler that they literally burst the pupils ear-drum - yes.

    (The schoolteacher in question went on to become a Tory MP - but that's not what I despise them for)
    I said despise and meant it, politicians of the last 5 decades or so have flushed most of the country down the drain and turned us into slaves in practice if not in name. In theory we can change jobs, for many though its either not an option as they can't do without the wage or in fact the only other employment they could get would be equally shitty.

    But its that or be homeless
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,066

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    He was? Which version of the bible was that bit in?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,041
    edited June 3
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Does anyone have any gen on how our Reform Councils are doing?

    When I least heard hit-the-ground-running Kent and Notts have cancelled/postponed all of the first month's committee meetings, except perhaps one in Kent.

    The DOGE free audit team includes Arron Banks and a man called Nathaniel Fried. Officers who do not comply are threatened with disciplinary action. This looks important; they have demanded access to all sorts of internal documents, including supplier contracts, whistleblower reports etc.. I'm not sure what happens to staff if they point out that something proposed for the team to do is unlawful.
    https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/396-governance-news/61123-reform-uk-says-officers-who-obstruct-internal-review-team-sent-into-county-council-will-be-guilty-of-gross-misconduct

    They all seem to be deprioritising supervision of flood defences, rolling the committees into "Environment". Is it too woke (whatever woke means today?) Good luck with that one in Lincs when it floods.

    And the leader of Lincs had a slightly car crash interview from the BBC. "Is it pro bono?" - "No, it's for free." Excerpt:
    https://x.com/Parody_PM/status/1929857141025735028

    Reform councils will end up getting sued for several times more than they manage to save in all likelihood
    Yes, but I don't want my community laid waste to evidence that they do not have any idea.
    I'd better not tell yiu Zia Yusuf refused to confirm they wouldn't be looking at benefits in public sector pensions within the council then!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    edited June 3
    There was mention of Victor Meldrew earlier....yours for just £337,500.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-14776209/House-iconic-90s-BBC-sitcom-market.html
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,858

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    It's not just your loss though, is it? The better rejected candidates have also lost.
    No, they've gained because they don't have to work for a dickhead company.
    But they can’t afford their rent and they have a baby due in 8 months
    In such a labour market, a single income would be enough to support a household so it wouldn't matter.
    This line of argument is on the same level as “true communism hasn’t been tried yet”.

    Besides you’ve slipped there and assumed this person has a partner.
    No, it reflects how things were before we forced women into the workplace and subjected everyone to the "two-income trap".
    Of all the things you've posted - I think this is the most baffling.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,454
    Damn, thanks to that 6 by Buttler my forecast for the England win was out by a whole 2 balls. Hey ho.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,858

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    He was? Which version of the bible was that bit in?
    The Emmanuel edition. One of Matthew's spicier versions before it was struck down and kept for special research by Vatican Scholars.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,275

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    He was? Which version of the bible was that bit in?
    The Gospel of John, depending upon how you interpret it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    edited June 3
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
    Angel Delight?
    Gotta ask the chef for that. When he's off duty.
    Butterscotch and I will happily pay a fiver....although we might be talking about different type of Angel Delight.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,557

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".

    That's an odd collection of sentences.
    Curiously, I was thinking earlier of a TV advert from, it must have been, the early 1990s. It featured an attractive blonde woman walking down the street, and the joke was she didn't get leers and catcalls from the group of hard-hatted workmen who were milling about as she passed. That sort of behaviour was commonplace back then, but I can't say I've seen it for many years. Bit depressing that elements of the British Right are now openly advocating a return to such oafishness.
    And so strangely expressed!

    Feminism isn't meritocratic but enjoying being leered at is?

    Hmm. Scratches head.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 154
    Stereodog said:

    Got a feeling I'm going to enjoy this week's issue:


    Why exactly? Is it really that difficult to leave the gays to celebrate their own thing and get on with your own life. If it's because of all of the corporate posturing on social media i agree with that but I can tell you that I and no other gay person I know asked for that.
    I've not been to a Pride event for at least 40 years. I've nothing against them but I know of no gay friends who'd dream of going . I don't believe they reflect the reality of life for most gay people.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,066

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    He was? Which version of the bible was that bit in?
    The Gospel of John, depending upon how you interpret it.
    A rather odd way, I’d wager.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 983
    Pagan2 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    When taken alone, yes, ridiculous. But it is a clunky means to a end without which we would be a more horrible place - where you could employ 10,000 people and stipulate that they are all white, or destroy careers because women have babies, or refuse to employ them at all.

    Drafting law is hard. Sometimes what you want to achieve is simple and obvious, until you try to draft laws that actually cover it. Try drafting the 'Compelling Reluctant People to Behave In A Civilized Manner Act 2025'.
    Please define civillized, I am sure for example most of isis think they are civillised
    Thanks for making my point. 'Civilized' will be defined in section 47 of Schedule 9 and will be further refined in the transitional provisions in Schedule 10. Schedule 14 will allow the Secretary of State following consultation with 47 named bodies to issue guidance as to how to interpret the definition, which shall not be binding.

    Welcome to ways of modern statutes.
    And politicians wonder why we despise them
    'Despise' is quite a strong word. Do you really despise them? I sometimes find myself disappointed, annoyed, exasperated, etc. But despise - no.

    Jimmy Saville - yes. That schoolteacher I remember who locked a pupil in a cupboard, forgot about them, then when they remembered opened the door and shouted so loudly in their ear and clapped them with a wooden ruler that they literally burst the pupils ear-drum - yes.

    (The schoolteacher in question went on to become a Tory MP - but that's not what I despise them for)
    I said despise and meant it, politicians of the last 5 decades or so have flushed most of the country down the drain and turned us into slaves in practice if not in name. In theory we can change jobs, for many though its either not an option as they can't do without the wage or in fact the only other employment they could get would be equally shitty.

    But its that or be homeless
    I think that we get the politicians we want rather than the politicians we need. For decades people have wanted higher living standards, higher property prices, more leisure all with less taxes and and less state spending on things that don't benefit them. As soon as a politician sticks their head above the parapet to try and change things they get shot down. See Theresa May over care and Starmer over the Winter Fuel allowance. Perfectly understandable to despise politicians but ultimately it's the voters who put them there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,899
    rcs1000 said:

    a

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
    It’s actually true that under Trump, US state police forces are trying to grab all kinds of digital data to track women who are pregnant. To see if they are visiting states where abortion is still legal. This includes phone data.
    It's more accurate to say that certain US states are attempting to get this data, and the Federal government isn't intervening to prevent them.

    However, I appreciate they end up being much the same thing.
    True. But the end result is that the government is trying to use all the myriad of personal data to track people for pre-“crime” behaviour.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,014
    edited June 3
    Musk has gone in with both feet on Twitter against Trump's "great big beautiful Bill" - calls it a "disgusting abomination".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THyEwaLp2TY&ab_channel=PonderingPolitics
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,275

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
    And of course Jesus was a bisexual man, so he would have been celebrating Pride.
    He was? Which version of the bible was that bit in?
    The Gospel of John, depending upon how you interpret it.
    A rather odd way, I’d wager.
    The Gospel of John refers repeatedly to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" which has been interpreted by some, for hundreds of years, as being a homosexual love. That's not a modern invention.

    King James I was quoted as saying it hundreds of years ago.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,762
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andrea Jenkyns in the Sunday Times Magazine, page 17.

    "I'm not a feminist, I'm a meritocrat. If someone wants to wolf-whistle at me, at 50, bring it on".

    That's an odd collection of sentences.
    Curiously, I was thinking earlier of a TV advert from, it must have been, the early 1990s. It featured an attractive blonde woman walking down the street, and the joke was she didn't get leers and catcalls from the group of hard-hatted workmen who were milling about as she passed. That sort of behaviour was commonplace back then, but I can't say I've seen it for many years. Bit depressing that elements of the British Right are now openly advocating a return to such oafishness.
    And so strangely expressed!

    Feminism isn't meritocratic but enjoying being leered at is?

    Hmm. Scratches head.
    Feminism while I understand the root went too far as these movements often do, they argued for womens right to work etc which is good however to a certain extent they made it a badge of shame for women who actually preferred being a homemaker only
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,222

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
    Angel Delight?
    Gotta ask the chef for that. When he's off duty.
    Butterscotch and I will happily pay a fiver....although we might be talking about different type of Angel Delight.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cewd705yy74o

    I thought you were refering to this!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,858

    MattW said:

    Does anyone have any gen on how our Reform Councils are doing?

    When I least heard hit-the-ground-running Kent and Notts have cancelled/postponed all of the first month's committee meetings, except perhaps one in Kent.

    The DOGE free audit team includes Arron Banks and a man called Nathaniel Fried. Officers who do not comply are threatened with disciplinary action. This looks important; they have demanded access to all sorts of internal documents, including supplier contracts, whistleblower reports etc.. I'm not sure what happens to staff if they point out that something proposed for the team to do is unlawful.
    https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/governance/396-governance-news/61123-reform-uk-says-officers-who-obstruct-internal-review-team-sent-into-county-council-will-be-guilty-of-gross-misconduct

    They all seem to be deprioritising supervision of flood defences, rolling the committees into "Environment". Is it too woke (whatever woke means today?) Good luck with that one in Lincs when it floods.

    And the leader of Lincs had a slightly car crash interview from the BBC. "Is it pro bono?" - "No, it's for free." Excerpt:
    https://x.com/Parody_PM/status/1929857141025735028

    Reform councils will end up getting sued for several times more than they manage to save in all likelihood
    Is there nothing that the woke blob won't do to thwart Nigels grand plan?!?!

    (Not the 'make Nigel rich and on the telly all the time' plan, the other grand plan. The one that involves 'things I vaguely don't like' and... stuff. That one.).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Todmorden has no Toby Carvery.
    Do they have a Hungry Horse ?
    Not heard of them. Looks like they have Toby beat. Roast and a pint for £11. Sundays only though.
    Angel Delight?
    Gotta ask the chef for that. When he's off duty.
    Butterscotch and I will happily pay a fiver....although we might be talking about different type of Angel Delight.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cewd705yy74o

    I thought you were refering to this!
    That is what started the joke earlier.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,388
    Noticed that some central London restaurants have increased their automatic tip percentage to 13.5% or 14.5%.
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