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By-election betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,524
    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,549

    eek said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Why do I think of Prince William / the Prince of Wales when people discuss such things?

    I might be oversharing here but my wife once suggested this and I say, nah.

    I have zero interest in the arsehole.
    This is why I haven't bothered watching a single second of any of these Robert Jenrick videos.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    And if some kid decides to switch off all the electric to your house will you be equally happy because they are developing these hacks as we speak
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,161
    Andy_JS said:

    Smart meters just instinctively feel like a bad idea.

    Beats having to hunt around for the gas box door key to read the meter.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,221

    carnforth said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    £-28 per mwh electricity price currently. Another day where our lack of storage, grid connections, electrified heavy industrial base and interconnector capacity means we’re leaving money on the table.

    I don't understand why we haven't built more hydro-electric reservoirs over the last 30 years which could be used to store energy.
    Because they're nosebleedingly expensive in relation to the power generated, in most cases.

    If you dammed a very large Scottish valley, then it might be cost effective, but the (by a very long way) most attractive location for a mega project has been repeatedly vetoed (for understandable reasons).
    This is an amazing project

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
    It is, but I doubt anything similar will be built again as it will very soon be cheaper to replicate its capabilities with a large battery storage facility.

    I believe it cost around £425m, forty years ago. It would be nearer £1.5bn today, I think ?
    Large battery storage isn't even that necessary when we're transitioning to lots of small battery storage.

    Dinorwig's 9.1 GWh of storage is the equivalent of 140,000 vehicles with a 65 kWh battery, or the equivalent of 0.4% of the vehicles on the road.

    Why spend billions on that, when we're transitioning anyway?

    The amount of storage we will have in this country in a few years time utterly dwarfs anything imaginable today.
    This is also spot on.
    On the couple of occasions over the last few decades where there's been an issue with the fuel supply for domestic motor vehicles, we always see cases of people dangerously storing fuel in their sheds, etc.

    This is because in a situation of scarcity people do not behave economically rationally, they hoard scarce resources rather than sell them.

    The same would be true of fully charged car batteries. If there's a high pressure forecast for a week, and even if a fully charged battery would normally last a person for a month of driving, rather than sell their excess energy for a profit, most people will want to hang onto it, just in case.

    That is ultimately why there will be a market for grid scale storage owned by people willing to sell their energy at a profit when energy is scarce.
    With that said... if power was properly priced, then people would make economically rational decisions
    about when to use it too.

    If it costs you £5 to run the dishwasher now, then maybe you'll postpone it.
    I dunno. I think that would be very unpopular and wouldn't last long in most democracies.
    Economics is the study of the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    A lot of stuff we do is hiding those real choices from people, by making things that are scarce appear unlimited.

    FWIW - in some Swiss cantons, from the 1970s, they've had households with two electrical circuits. One of which was only on during periods of low electricity prices. So, you can put your dishwasher on there if you like, and not get to use it for half the day... but when you do use it, it costs a lot less. It doesn't seem to have caused them terrible problems.
    Isn’t that just the same as the old Economy 7 meters?
    Economy 7 has two meters, but only one circuit.
    In my old flat, I had two fuse boxes - one for the Economy 7 circuit and one for the regular. IIRC the timing system for the Economy 7 was run for the whole block from the services cupboard.
    Ah, I've only seen it where the control module was also in each flat. Interesting.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    The law has to define what “unfairly” means.
    The law is an ass and the last people I would trust to define it
    That’s all very well and good but it still needs to be defined if you want to make it unlawful.
    It shouldn't be defined by pondscum....sorry I meant lawyers
    Well judges are lawyers and they are the ones who ultimately have to decide
    They dont stop being scum because they were promoted
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,000
    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    Todmorden, location of the Zigmund Adamski mystery
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    Well over a decade ago, Mrs J developed a couple of chips used in smart meters.

    We don't want a smart meter, and are trying our damnedest not to get one.

    Just sayin'. ;)
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,221
    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    So what is the Luxembourgish working class guilty secret?
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 154
    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Welcome to PB 1971.

    Classy.
    Some of the absolute tosspot posts on here this afternoon explain very neatly why Pride is still needed.
    Oh get over yourself! As a gay man I could tell he was basically joking. A lot of snowflakes here tonight.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    fpt

    SWR (now need GBR) need to read the room..

    Heavily overcrowded train and everyone pissed off. Playing two automatic announcements:

    (1) "Abuse against our staff will not be tolerated"
    (2) "You must have a ticket to travel on one of our trains or you will pay a penalty fare"

    Revolutions have started for less. The passenger experience is entirely shit.

    No explanation for the cancellation and an entirely insincere or pre-recorded "apology" if you're lucky. Which we are not.

    "Annabel Denham
    What my train journey from hell tells us about the state of Britain
    The UK needs leaders to take tough decisions – but neither Labour, Tories nor Reform are ready to do so" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/03/train-journey-from-hell-state-of-broken-britain/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    This Jamie Smith lad can play a bit.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,161
    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Welcome to PB 1971.

    Classy.
    Some of the absolute tosspot posts on here this afternoon explain very neatly why Pride is still needed.
    I must have missed some of the posts this afternoon, but that particular one was best left in Jim Davidson's audition for New Faces.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346
    edited June 3

    This Jamie Smith lad can play a bit.

    I'll get my coat....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,014

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Wot - not butterscotch?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,000

    This Jamie Smith lad can play a bit.

    I'll get my coat....
    No, you were right, he can play a bit. The bit is finished!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Elon Musk

    @elonmusk
    ·
    20m
    I’m sorry, but I just can’t stand it anymore.

    This massive, outrageous, pork-filled Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination.

    Shame on those who voted for it: you know you did wrong. You know it.

    He can help the deficit by refusing any payments from the government for Tesla and SpaceX.

    I mean, his companies would be in serious trouble, but at least the deficit would go down.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    An absolute cop out. You may as well get rid of all laws and let judges decide cases on a completely arbitrary basis based on their judgement.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    Hiring who you want is a lot different to running an unsafe work place and frankly legitimate companies will run a safe workplace without the health and safety regs because if they don't they will be ruined by compensation claims fairly damn quick
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,346

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    But I heard the Toby Carvery serves Angel Delight....
    Wot - not butterscotch?
    Only on Sundays....
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743

    Elon Musk

    @elonmusk
    ·
    20m
    I’m sorry, but I just can’t stand it anymore.

    This massive, outrageous, pork-filled Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination.

    Shame on those who voted for it: you know you did wrong. You know it.

    Well he could always f*** off back to South Africa.
    About as acceptable as Trump saying the same about Ilhan Omar going back to Somalia.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,549

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Welcome to PB 1971.

    Classy.
    Cmon get with the "Vibeshift". We're going back to a time before all the equality nonsense.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    That's why I don't do numbers 2,3,4 and only use a few of 1 like PB. Hopefully 5 doesn't happen.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,405
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Bloody football on ITV so watching classic Star Trek on Legend. Just got to the ‘teach me about this strange earth custom called Kissing, Captain’ scene 👍

    "Please, Captain. Not in front of the Klingons!" - Spock.
    Your Chagos avatar didn’t last too long.
    Casino changed his to Chagos hours after I did (a couple of weeks back), and since he's in one of his, ah, "moods" tonight, I don't want my messages confused with his :lol:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,990

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    "Refer a friend" recruitment bonus schemes are the enemy of achieving a diverse workforce.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    Hiring who you want is a lot different to running an unsafe work place and frankly legitimate companies will run a safe workplace without the health and safety regs because if they don't they will be ruined by compensation claims fairly damn quick
    The whole point of discrimination in employment law is to give employees the right to make a compensation claim in the event they are unfairly (in law) discriminated against. It’s the same motivator.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671
    A couple of years back i found myself in the Nottingham area with a few hours to spare, so I parked at a tram park and ride and ran into the city centre. It turned out to be Nottingham Pride day (I genuinely had not known), and I spent a couple of hours chatting to the bearded ladies, short-haired butch lesbians and loads of other people. All of whom were probably wondering what this sweaty weirdo was doing in their presence...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,265
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Dopermean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    £-28 per mwh electricity price currently. Another day where our lack of storage, grid connections, electrified heavy industrial base and interconnector capacity means we’re leaving money on the table.

    I don't understand why we haven't built more hydro-electric reservoirs over the last 30 years which could be used to store energy.
    Because they're nosebleedingly expensive in relation to the power generated, in most cases.

    If you dammed a very large Scottish valley, then it might be cost effective, but the (by a very long way) most attractive location for a mega project has been repeatedly vetoed (for understandable reasons).
    This is an amazing project

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
    It is, but I doubt anything similar will be built again as it will very soon be cheaper to replicate its capabilities with a large battery storage facility.

    I believe it cost around £425m, forty years ago. It would be nearer £1.5bn today, I think ?
    Large battery storage isn't even that necessary when we're transitioning to lots of small battery storage.

    Dinorwig's 9.1 GWh of storage is the equivalent of 140,000 vehicles with a 65 kWh battery, or the equivalent of 0.4% of the vehicles on the road.

    Why spend billions on that, when we're transitioning anyway?

    The amount of storage we will have in this country in a few years time utterly dwarfs anything imaginable today.
    This is also spot on.
    On the couple of occasions over the last few decades where there's been an issue with the fuel supply for domestic motor vehicles, we always see cases of people dangerously storing fuel in their sheds, etc.

    This is because in a situation of scarcity people do not behave economically rationally, they hoard scarce resources rather than sell them.

    The same would be true of fully charged car batteries. If there's a high pressure forecast for a week, and even if a fully charged battery would normally last a person for a month of driving, rather than sell their excess energy for a profit, most people will want to hang onto it, just in case.

    That is ultimately why there will be a market for grid scale storage owned by people willing to sell their energy at a profit when energy is scarce.
    With that said... if power was properly priced, then people would make economically rational decisions
    about when to use it too.

    If it costs you £5 to run the dishwasher now, then maybe you'll postpone it.
    I dunno. I think that would be very unpopular and wouldn't last long in most democracies.
    You can do it now with octopus, you just set your dishwasher/washing machine to start in x hours which all new ones can do. Just like you set your car to charge
    People are used to the convenience of being able to use electricity when they want. A few geeks will enjoy playing the system and looking at the numbers, but most people will see it as a nuisance and a step backwards.

    Household chores are enough of a hassle without having to plan them with the aid of the weather forecast. That's why people pay for a dishwasher, or a robot vacuum cleaner/lawnmower. They don't want to micromanage the whole thing.
    It doesn't require micromanagement, there's a cheap nighttime tariff and you press start in 3 / 6 / x hours. People who do save a few pence, it helps the grid balance.
    When 2 way car chargers are available again then people will use their EV as a domestic battery. It is where it will go because it evens out demand.
    Don't be daft few will use their car as a domestic battery, simple reason is they don't want to go to the car to go somewhere and find the car hasn't enough charge for where they want to go because the wind wasn't blowing in buttfuck nowhere
    I would quite happily use my car as a domestic battery backup if I had one and if I had the electronics to make it work.

    A typical household battery is 5-10 kWh, a typically car battery is 60-70 kWh. You could use the car battery as a domestic one and it would only take about 15% of the power - plus of course most inverter setups will stop the drain of the battery when it gets to a defined percentage anyway.

    If you have an inverter setup you can just plug it in when at home and forget about it, draining when needed, and charging when its cheap, with no worries.

    My petrol car doesn't normally sit on my driveway 100% full of petrol either, I allow the tank to drain and only refill it when there's only a few miles left in the tank.

    That inverter setups are more expensive is a bigger reason most won't do it.
    You would until the first time you go out in the morning to drive somewhere and find you no longer have the charge for it due to your battery being drained for domestic use. You analogy to your petrol car is pointless as your petrol car is not being drained of fuel to supply your house it has the same amount of petrol in it as when you parked it. I doubt very much you park it with hardly any petrol in knowing you have to drive 100 miles the following day.

    The situation using a car to power your house is exactly the opposite....you park it has more than enough power to get you where you need to be tomorrow...but then the battery is drained because there is insufficient wind and when you goto leave in the morning you no longer have sufficient power in the battery.

    It will happen to people precisely once before they go fuck that, my car isn't powering the house
    You don't seem to understand the point that was made, so lets try again.

    A domestic battery setup is about 10-15% of the power of an EV battery.

    Would I be OK with my car battery being drained to 0%? No, of course not.

    If my car battery was 100% would I be OK with it being drained to 85% if that saved me money? Yes.

    An inverter setup normally operates on a smart system whereby you can program what percentage of the battery its allowed to drain to, at which point it cuts off and won't drain any further. Eg I could say "do not go below 80%" and it will never go below 80% due to powering the house. Or any other percentage you care to set it to.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,524
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    We’re a long way from the Toby Carvery in Todmorden, Tonto

    So what is the Luxembourgish working class guilty secret?
    Be Portuguese? Half of them are from Portugal thanks to a mass migration in the 70s - and they’re very visible

    The local guide in Echternacht home of Saint Willibrord of Northumberland was bracingly honest when she explained this to me:

    “We needed migrants, but we wanted them to integrate, so we chose Portugal because they were poor, but also white, European, and Christian and Catholic, so we thought they’d fit in. And they have”

    Was that racist of the Luxemburgers? Or just obviously bleedin’ sensible?

    I shall let PB decide as I finish the weirdly excellent foie gras. Why is this restaurant so good? It’s not even expensive (not that I am paying). But suddenly I’m getting classic High French cuisine expertly executed after days and days of German gunk

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Not really. If a hiring manager is stupid enough to write down or otherwise communicate that they didn’t hire someone for a protected characteristic then they deserve everything coming to them.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761
    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743
    The Trumpdozer and President Xi are having a chat Friday.

    I’m sure it will all be fine.

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1929928168741236922?s=61
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    "Refer a friend" recruitment bonus schemes are the enemy of achieving a diverse workforce.
    All that is doing is saving money on recruiter fees
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,161
    Taz said:

    Elon Musk

    @elonmusk
    ·
    20m
    I’m sorry, but I just can’t stand it anymore.

    This massive, outrageous, pork-filled Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination.

    Shame on those who voted for it: you know you did wrong. You know it.

    Well he could always f*** off back to South Africa.
    About as acceptable as Trump saying the same about Ilhan Omar going back to Somalia.
    If he doesn't like US tax and spend policy he is welcome to return to his country of birth. I meant no more than that.

    I suspect you complained about my presumably racially charged post not because you disliked the post but because you dislike the poster.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,990
    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    SWR (now need GBR) need to read the room..

    Heavily overcrowded train and everyone pissed off. Playing two automatic announcements:

    (1) "Abuse against our staff will not be tolerated"
    (2) "You must have a ticket to travel on one of our trains or you will pay a penalty fare"

    Revolutions have started for less. The passenger experience is entirely shit.

    No explanation for the cancellation and an entirely insincere or pre-recorded "apology" if you're lucky. Which we are not.

    "Annabel Denham
    What my train journey from hell tells us about the state of Britain
    The UK needs leaders to take tough decisions – but neither Labour, Tories nor Reform are ready to do so" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/03/train-journey-from-hell-state-of-broken-britain/
    You would think that someone writing in the Telegraph would know that you only use "neither" when there are two options.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    Definitely,the second one. Possibly community service too
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Not really. If a hiring manager is stupid enough to write down or otherwise communicate that they didn’t hire someone for a protected characteristic then they deserve everything coming to them.
    Under current laws, yes, but those laws shouldn't exist. It should be legal to discriminate in hiring in any way a private company sees fit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761
    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    Definitely,the second one. Possibly community service too
    Community service it too good for them, summary execution or being shipped to rwanda is my preferred solution for do number 2's
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549
    edited June 3

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    edited June 3
    edit
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Not really. If a hiring manager is stupid enough to write down or otherwise communicate that they didn’t hire someone for a protected characteristic then they deserve everything coming to them.
    Under current laws, yes, but those laws shouldn't exist. It should be legal to discriminate in hiring in any way a private company sees fit.
    Good luck winning an election on a platform saying that businesses should be able lawfully refuse to hire or to fire a pregnant woman simply for being pregnant.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671
    Taz said:

    The Trumpdozer and President Xi are having a chat Friday.

    I’m sure it will all be fine.

    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/1929928168741236922?s=61

    I wonder if Xi has a passing understanding of English? I would not be surprised if he did, and that would be to his advantage.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,265
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Not really. If a hiring manager is stupid enough to write down or otherwise communicate that they didn’t hire someone for a protected characteristic then they deserve everything coming to them.
    Under current laws, yes, but those laws shouldn't exist. It should be legal to discriminate in hiring in any way a private company sees fit.
    Good luck winning an election on a platform saying that businesses should be able lawfully refuse to hire or to fire a pregnant woman simply for being pregnant.
    This sort of thing should be left to a free vote as a cultural issue or matter of conscience. It doesn't belong in a party manifesto.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,213

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    So once again the second one is the issue here
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    Hiring who you want is a lot different to running an unsafe work place and frankly legitimate companies will run a safe workplace without the health and safety regs because if they don't they will be ruined by compensation claims fairly damn quick
    Compensation claims are wokery.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743
    Our former PM at the IPL final cheering on RCB

    https://x.com/rishisunak/status/1929913174804877439?s=61
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,161
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Welcome to PB 1971.

    Classy.
    Cmon get with the "Vibeshift". We're going back to a time before all the equality nonsense.
    Yes, it's all gone a bit like a particularly shite episode of Are You Being Served on here this afternoon.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    I was a hiring manager for the software team at a company I worked for, we got a discrimination case lodged by the one of the interviewed candidates saying we didn't employ him because he was black. It cost us money defending it

    The real irony being the candidate we selected was also black and a woman and fortunately we could prove why we had not selected him (it was because he didn't know his arse from his elbow and didn't answer a single tech question correctly)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,449

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    Genuine LOL.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    Definitely,the second one. Possibly community service too
    Community service it too good for them, summary execution or being shipped to rwanda is my preferred solution for do number 2's
    Approve new housing developments and infrastructure by them. It would be torture for the NIMBYs.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    If its my personal facebook account and I have never mentioned the company on it how is it bringing them into disrepute?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,617
    edited June 3
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TimS said:

    £-28 per mwh electricity price currently. Another day where our lack of storage, grid connections, electrified heavy industrial base and interconnector capacity means we’re leaving money on the table.

    I don't understand why we haven't built more hydro-electric reservoirs over the last 30 years which could be used to store energy.
    Because they're nosebleedingly expensive in relation to the power generated, in most cases.

    If you dammed a very large Scottish valley, then it might be cost effective, but the (by a very long way) most attractive location for a mega project has been repeatedly vetoed (for understandable reasons).
    This is an amazing project

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
    It is, but I doubt anything similar will be built again as it will very soon be cheaper to replicate its capabilities with a large battery storage facility.

    I believe it cost around £425m, forty years ago. It would be nearer £1.5bn today, I think ?
    Large battery storage isn't even that necessary when we're transitioning to lots of small battery storage.

    Dinorwig's 9.1 GWh of storage is the equivalent of 140,000 vehicles with a 65 kWh battery, or the equivalent of 0.4% of the vehicles on the road.

    Why spend billions on that, when we're transitioning anyway?

    The amount of storage we will have in this country in a few years time utterly dwarfs anything imaginable today.
    This is also spot on.
    On the couple of occasions over the last few decades where there's been an issue with the fuel supply for domestic motor vehicles, we always see cases of people dangerously storing fuel in their sheds, etc.

    This is because in a situation of scarcity people do not behave economically rationally, they hoard scarce resources rather than sell them.

    The same would be true of fully charged car batteries. If there's a high pressure forecast for a week, and even if a fully charged battery would normally last a person for a month of driving, rather than sell their excess energy for a profit, most people will want to hang onto it, just in case.

    That is ultimately why there will be a market for grid scale storage owned by people willing to sell their energy at a profit when energy is scarce.
    With that said... if power was properly priced, then people would make economically rational decisions
    about when to use it too.

    If it costs you £5 to run the dishwasher now, then maybe you'll postpone it.
    I dunno. I think that would be very unpopular and wouldn't last long in most democracies.
    Economics is the study of the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

    A lot of stuff we do is hiding those real choices from people, by making things that are scarce appear unlimited.

    FWIW - in some Swiss cantons, from the 1970s, they've had households with two electrical circuits. One of which was only on during periods of low electricity prices. So, you can put your dishwasher on there if you like, and not get to use it for half the day... but when you do use it, it costs a lot less. It doesn't seem to have caused them terrible problems.
    Isn’t that just the same as the old Economy 7 meters?
    Economy 7 has two meters, but only one circuit.
    In my old flat, I had two fuse boxes - one for the Economy 7 circuit and one for the regular. IIRC the timing system for the Economy 7 was run for the whole block from the services cupboard.
    Ah, I've only seen it where the control module was also in each flat. Interesting.
    Yep - my parents used to have washer, dryer etc wired in to Economy 7, to be used on a timer overnight.

    They had no gas and about 90% of their lecky went through Economy 7. Lots and lots (about 12-14) of storage heaters.

    Sometimes it's a game people play to fully use solar - they might have that into a "sink" such as underfloor heating, water tank etc, where now it might be a house battery.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,000
    edited June 3
    Starmer ruling out an indy ref whilst he is PM should give SNP turnout a good shunt for Thursday
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,598
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    And if some kid decides to switch off all the electric to your house will you be equally happy because they are developing these hacks as we speak
    If so SSE will deal with it and we are vulnerable customers anyway
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,068

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Dairy farmers are known for their rampant agoraphobia. So, if you like agora wool, you should really stay away from butter.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,449
    Taz said:

    Our former PM at the IPL final cheering on RCB

    https://x.com/rishisunak/status/1929913174804877439?s=61

    Good luck to him. I am more than a bit jealous. A major match in the IPL is certainly on my bucket list.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because:

    discriminatory asshats are sadly common - as we see on here;
    there are other factors that influence success and failure;
    discrimination will become normalised.
    +more.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
  • eekeek Posts: 30,213
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    If its my personal facebook account and I have never mentioned the company on it how is it bringing them into disrepute?
    Depends on your role in the company and equally if they want an excuse to get rid of you
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    If its universal, then why do so many people not have this "problem"?

    What seems to be universal is that events happen that people are free to take part in, if they choose to do so.

    That people are scorned or suspect or anything else if they don't take part in one event does not seem to be remotely universal.

    Just live and let live.
    You must be the world's most boring man
    I assume you've ran out of arguments to bitch and moan about now that you're just turning personal and silly.

    I was responding to the statements and not turning personal.

    If people want to celebrate Christmas for a month instead of a day, or wear poppies for a month instead of a day, or wear a lanyard for a month instead of a day, just let them. If you don't want to, then don't, its not mandatory.

    If people want to do something they enjoy, then there's no harm in that. You don't need to take part, but you don't need to object either.
    Your view is that on every subject you can win an argument simply by being more relentless and repetitive than everyone else, and always having the last word.

    It doesn't work like that.

    Doubtless you'll respond to this and claim some sort of victory - you simply won't be able to help yourself - but I'm happy with the points I've made and that I've addressed yours.

    I won't be engaging with you further.
    Nothing like a bit of Blue on Blue action!
    The right seems so obsessed with the minutiae of cultural issues, nowadays, that they have lost sight of the masses of ordinary folk simply wanting the country to work and to have the chance to improve their lives. That Farage at least has this on his radar screen, whereas the Tories do not, explains a lot.
    It is probably more of a social media thing than a left/right thing. Spend too much time on twatter and its sister sites, become a cultural bore, whether on the left or right. Live more offline, those are subjects that can be joked about, enjoyed or ignored as preferred.
    People joke about me being a luddite because I don't carry my smart phone out of the house. I think the smart meter issue proves my point

    Every technology has its upsides and downsides, as a techie I am probably more aware of some of them than others

    Each time an individual embraces a technology they should weigh up the benefit/danger ratio

    I have been a software engineer since 1997 so grew up with the internet and technology and use it all the time.

    However the benefits of

    Social media
    Carrying a smart phone everywhere
    Smart meters,
    Driving a modern car,
    Home office version of id cards where its backed by a db containing all your personal data

    To me at least dont outweigh the dangers they pose

    My worry is people like BigG really don't realise for example how vulnerable a smart meter actually is to malicious actors
    Dont worry about me

    I am 81, and my wife 85, and if our energy supplier gives us 48 hours free electricity in a month due to the use of a smart meter than that is fine by us not least because my wife is a Scot who loves a bargain
    And if some kid decides to switch off all the electric to your house will you be equally happy because they are developing these hacks as we speak
    If so SSE will deal with it and we are vulnerable customers anyway
    If they do a hack on SSE meters then there is likely nothing the company can do it will likely be a ransomware attack where they turn off half a million homes and demand payment else they won't turn them back on. You are being very naive about the danger sorry
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because:

    discriminatory asshats are sadly common - as we see on here;
    there are other factors that influence success and failure;
    discrimination will become normalised.
    +more.
    So in fact you don't really believe that companies that discriminate would lose out by overlooking the best people?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482
    @williamglenn at what point did you become an anarcho capitalist lunatic?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,934
    Leon said:

    I like companies that celebrate Pride Month while simultaneously celebrating their latest contract in a country where you get locked up for being gay.

    I like companies and charities and government bodies that celebrate Pride month even as they celebrate mass migration from the most homophobic places on earth, thereby guaranteeing that some way down the line the latter phenomenon will menace or destroy the first

    See how the most homophobic place in the UK is…. London
    On the basis of same sex marriage the most homophobic places are actually Scotland, the Midlands and Wales all of which have 16% opposing same sex marriage compared to 11% in London

    https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/YouGov_-_Same_sex_marriage_June_2023.pdf
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    Any comments on this?

    "Video footage of an award-winning police officer arresting a knife-carrying teenager has been released after the officer was sacked for a 'lack of respect'. The shocking footage shows how PC Lorne Castle grabbed the 15-year-old boy, who was suspected of assault, pushed him into a wall before slamming him into the ground and proceeded to place his hand over the youth's face while shouting threats and curse words. During the commotion a Stanley-type knife fell out of the teenager's waistband. PC Castle, 46, was dismissed from Dorset Police over the Bournemouth arrest, sparking a wave of criticism as it emerged the teen was suspected of assaulting two people including an elderly gentlemen. Dorset Police has now released the full bodycam footage from PC Castle's partner on the stop, allowing the public to judge for themselves. Following the arrest PC Castle's colleagues reported concerns about his conduct to senior officers, prompting a 16-month investigation and gross misconduct proceedings. A misconduct panel last week found PC Castle made the boy feel 'frightened and intimidated' and showed him a 'lack of courtesy and respect' during the arrest in January last year."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14776185/Video-arrest-police-officer-knife-teenager-sacked.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,524
    Battlebus said:

    Could I gently suggest to @Casino_Royale that he makes his way to Paris for June 28th. All your LBGTQIA+ questions will be answered there. Or you can have a bloody good time by going with the flow. And those guys in beards with the platform soles - just ignore their enthusiastic banter. They are out for a good time too.

    https://parisjetaime.com/eng/event/the-gay-lesbian-bi-and-trans-pride-march-e029

    Good choice. Paris

    “FRANCE: Muslim immigrants tear down pride flags from a gay bar in Paris.

    Can’t wait to see how ‘Queers for Palestine’ and their ‘Intersectionality’ rationalize this.”

    https://x.com/realmaalouf/status/1922935495685722163?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,449
    England making 246 off 40 overs look at least 100 runs short.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because:

    discriminatory asshats are sadly common - as we see on here;
    there are other factors that influence success and failure;
    discrimination will become normalised.
    +more.
    So in fact you don't really believe that companies that discriminate would lose out by overlooking the best people?
    I do believe that. It's just that the negative effects of not hiring the best people might be drowned out by other effects; or people may think hiring the 'right' (white) people is worth the costs. But (as an example) they may be less profitable because they missed out on skills and ideas because they hired someone less capable.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,743
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Our former PM at the IPL final cheering on RCB

    https://x.com/rishisunak/status/1929913174804877439?s=61

    Good luck to him. I am more than a bit jealous. A major match in the IPL is certainly on my bucket list.
    Same here. Probably KKR for me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    @williamglenn at what point did you become an anarcho capitalist lunatic?

    I'm not an anarcho capitalist. You need a strong state to do things like protecting the borders and executing criminals.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,934
    theakes said:

    SNP to get 0ver 40% of the vote and win comfortably. Reform 20-25%, Labour 15 - 20%, rest nowhere with the Lib Dem probably crawling into fourth place.

    Labour got a significantly higher voteshare in the Hamilton Westminster constituency last year than they did Scotland wide, the SNP slightly lower and Reform about average. So not impossible Labour could win the Holyrood seat in a close 3 way contest
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Freedom is doing things without carrying a phone around with you at all times.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    @williamglenn at what point did you become an anarcho capitalist lunatic?

    I'm not an anarcho capitalist. You need a strong state to do things like protecting the borders and executing criminals.
    So you want a strong state with strong corporate power… So fascism in the classical definition?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,457
    Got a feeling I'm going to enjoy this week's issue:


  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,482

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    I mean realistically under the current law you could and unless you were stupid nobody would challenge it
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    Don't forget to stock up on bacofoil while you're out !
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,671
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    Its called google, if a company is raging racists or homophobes they are likely to have been called out on it.
    Says the guy who doesn’t bring his phone with him when he leaves the house!
    Sorry whats the connection here, I don't bring my phone as its a tracking device that shows everywhere I have been. Google will yes log my search of Kerrygold but I am unlikely to become a suspect in a murder because of that whereas that now happens in the us (before trump took over as well) where all people who's phones show up in the locale of a serious crime are considered suspects
    On the other hand, if a crime is committed and you are a potential suspect, you might find it harder to prove where you were - or were not.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,761
    edited June 3
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    A reasonable statement marred by one little fact

    Define unfairly sacked?
    Define anything in life. Requires judgement, as everything always has done.
    Ok give you an example, I am for the sake of argument on facebook (I am not)

    On my personal account not linked to the company in anyway but my work colleagues all know it

    I make the following posts

    Gays should be castrated
    Lib dems are a great party
    N****** go home
    All teachers are peadophiles
    A cartoon of muhammed

    Which of these are cause for sacking?
    The second one is cause for getting sectioned, not sacked.

    However an employer can sack anyone who brings the firm into disrepute.
    If its my personal facebook account and I have never mentioned the company on it how is it bringing them into disrepute?
    Depends on your role in the company and equally if they want an excuse to get rid of you
    Ah so its only an unfair sacking if I am important
  • eekeek Posts: 30,213

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    Because if everyone did that no women would get jobs if aged between 22 to about 45.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,934

    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    That's not a real choice, though. This is universal in the corporate world now.

    Thankfully, there is a pushback - but it needs a real shove to tip it out the system.
    No, it isn’t.

    I’ve encountered the proactive shite twice in a long career.

    That and the time HR fucked up booking a resteraunt, because they had no idea of actual diversity.
    Er, yes it is. And I suspect I've worked for more clients in more sectors than you have.

    This is just denialism: people veer between saying the problem doesn't exist or that it does but that's your problem.
    Some companies think diversity is important and spend money on it.

    Some companies employ people who think it's important

    My viewpoint is that it's irrelevant to me but if people think it's important that's fine by me.

    I really don't see why people get worked up about it...
    Then, you need to work harder to educate yourself.
    You will have to enlighten me because at the moment you remind me of


    I have a philosophy of live and let live and I’m the one with a blind spot?
    When did I ever say I'm not live and let live?

    That's not how I'm being treated. This stuff is megaphoned into my ear every year for a month or more, like Steve Bray, and if you ever objected your career would be shot.

    That's not live and let live. That's live in sufferance and try not to let it get to you.
    We get two months in Manchester. Pride in June, Manchester Pride in August.
    There's also LBGT history month in February, but that' not really caught on yet. Give it time, mind.
    Yes, this stuff is essentially all year round now.

    It's become a religion.
    We live in a world where we are expected to celebrate for a month because someone likes it up the bum. 🌈 🤷🏼‍♂️

    https://x.com/mrbrum43/status/1929599342421159990?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Arguably better than celebrating someone being painfully nailed to a cross
    Actually a celebration of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins and not for a month, not that I have anything against Pride particularly
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,549
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "DW Politics
    @dw_politics

    JUST IN: A German court rules government's move to turn away asylum seekers at border is unlawful- in a blow to Chancellor Merz."

    https://x.com/dw_politics/status/1929550116957860323

    The system of international law/human rights either needs to be changed or it will be overturned entirely.
    The legal/activist class across Europe are like the monks and priests of the Catholic Church in northern and Western Europe circa 1500. Parasitic, doctrinaire, vain, myopic and greedy. And you can feel the resentment building and building. A Reformation is coming to sweep them away and it might be violent
    That's a great analogy.

    But it goes wider. Full on Pride shite at work today with some events stretching into August. A queer quiz. A gay tapestry. Marches all over the place. A fans for trans social.

    Who wants this shit?
    I am totally ungay, but your workplace sounds like fun.

    Did you realise the company was this "right on" when you joined?
    All companies are like this now. All of them.

    The only acceptable response is to cheer and amplify it. To do anything else risks you being labelled as a homophobe, and we all know what that means.

    So, this absurd foghorning goes on - despite most people not really caring and being somewhat fed up with it all.
    That’s not my experience at double digit organisations across both engineering and law. You can delete DEI emails. You can refuse to put pronouns in email signatures. You don’t have to attend pride events. Nobody cares. It’s all in your head.

    I do all of those things and nobody thinks I am a homophobe because, well, I’m not.
    No, it's not all in my head - this is simple denialism by you.

    It's on every call I go to, and I have to listen to it all.

    You said upthread you loved this stuff, and now you say you don't do any of it.

    Which one is it?
    Where I've worked there's emails to 'Pride' events . . . and emails inviting to football games, basketball games, chess clubs, book clubs, craft clubs, and plenty of other things.

    The general thing with social emails is to pick the ones you're interested in and ignore the rest.

    So what if some people in your work want to do Pride activities? How is that affecting you whatsoever? If others are playing 5-a-side is that affecting you? Don't hear you moaning about that, but I imagine that's happening too?

    If Pride is the only social stuff being organised, then it sounds like a pretty crappy place to work, but if its one amongst many, then why have a bee in your bonnet about what others choose to do?
    You really don't get this, do you?

    You have to be seen to champion, echo and be enthusiastic about this stuff, from a career perspective, or else you are suspect. It's a required belief. There is no choice.

    This is the entire problem with Wokery. Which people like you and @Gallowgate cannot understand.

    [PS. I don't have people talking to me about 5-a-side on every call for every day for a full month every year, and requiring me to applaud it or I'm seen as bigot. It's not remotely comparable.]
    Why don't you resign? I've got friends who feel like this about Gaza and have turned down good jobs at arms companies as a result.
    EVERY SINGLE COMPANY IS LIKE THIS. You can't escape.

    The solution is political: either Woke is reined in, or it ends.

    For example: Pride could go back to being a fun weekend and a march, fine, but no that wasn't enough. Now, its all of June and July and August at 110dB every single year and rainbow lanyards and flags all year round. It bores people at best and p1sses people off at worst.

    Why? Because people don't like to be hectored but it's politically incorrect - and dangerous - to object so people feel even more frustrated because they can't say anything.

    If you're not proportionate on anything and set rules around the right thing to say, or not say, you get a backlash.

    The religious adherents can never see it, because they love it.
    Companies are free to take on whatever policies they see fit; you're free to take on whatever job you fancy.

    You're right that the solution is political - but I don't think you'll find much support for banning woke activity in private companies across wider society.

    I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I feel this way about our lack of cycle infrastructure. Write to your MP, put up posters, make the argument here and elsewhere. Explain why it harms your business and/or society. Good luck, I guess.
    Companies are not free to take on whatever policies they see fit. They have to comply with all sorts of regulations on diversity and equality.
    Like what? They have to not discriminate on protected characteristics, but I can’t think of much they have to comply with in terms of “regulations on diversity and equality”. Cite some legislation if this is true.
    Don't you find the whole concept of "protected characteristics" ridiculous?
    No. Because pregnancy is a protected characteristic and if it wasn’t women could be sacked for getting pregnant. I don’t favour that. Do you?
    It goes without saying that nobody should be unfairly sacked, whatever the reason is.
    So… how do you enforce that? Are there some characteristics it’s unfair to sack someone for and some it’s OK?
    It's more than sacking; ISTR one illustrious poster saying that he would never hire a vegan for his 'team', because they wouldn't fit in for... reasons.

    Hiring practices matter as much as conditions and sackings/redundancies.
    Unless companies are free to hire whomever they please then we don’t have a genuine private sector.
    That's rubbish.

    Would you say the same for health and safety? "Unless companies are free to work in whatever manner they want then we don't have a genuine private sector" ?
    In a way, yes, but it's easier to justify regulating health and safety.
    Perhaps to you. Others may see why restricting companies from being dickheads when hiring or firing is beneficial not just to the people being hired or fired, but the companies themselves.

    I mean, take Mrs J. She would have problems in three ways: she is a woman, she is an immigrant, and she is from a Muslim country. Yet she has been a damned good employee for every company she has worked for, and is in demand. If those companies had been dickheads and not hired her because she was a woman, or an immigrant, or her potential religion, then they would have been all the poorer.
    That's totally contradictory. If it's good for the companies themselves, why would she have any problems? Let the dickhead companies be dickheads and if you're right, they'll soon go out of business.
    Because companies don't necessarily do what's good for them if the people doing the hiring are discriminatory shitbags.
    But in a free market, the companies that make bad decisions will lose out to the companies that make good decisions. Why not let the bad ones fail?
    Because people don’t have the freedom in reality to make those decisions. I have no idea if the random brands of butter I buy are a bunch of raging racists or homophobes and I have no realistic way of finding out.
    You don't need to know. As a consumer you just buy the products that you prefer, and serving your preferences is downstream of making the right hiring decisions.
    Nah. As a citizen I believe that it is in the public interest for it to not be lawful to discriminate for many reasons.
    That's a legitimate view. My point is just that it means that we don't have a true private sector. If I wanted to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic, it would be illegal.
    Why would you want to put together a team based on some arbitrary characteristic?
    Why shouldn't I? If I decided to only accept applications from men between 25-35, why should the state stop me? If I'm missing out on talent because of it, then that's my loss.
    Because if everyone did that no women would get jobs if aged between 22 to about 45.
    So all this stuff about it being in the companies' own interest is a lie?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,449
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Our former PM at the IPL final cheering on RCB

    https://x.com/rishisunak/status/1929913174804877439?s=61

    Good luck to him. I am more than a bit jealous. A major match in the IPL is certainly on my bucket list.
    Same here. Probably KKR for me.
    I'd love to see Kohli bat one more time.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,381
    DavidL said:

    England making 246 off 40 overs look at least 100 runs short.

    Do you mean Windies?
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