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Narrative changers – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    Well THAT's cheered me up
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812
    Debate doesn't really happen in the Commons but this does seem like it would give up the pretence. The two parts of the government statement don't seem related to one another.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,199
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Not just from the previous thread, but the one before that...

    a

    Nigelb said:

    Ridiculous failure.

    https://x.com/s8mb/status/1922732865650831769
    The HS2 line between Birmingham and Old Oak Common in outer London will now cost £126bn and be finished in 2039.

    Doesn’t include the trains, the Euston bit, or any of the other bits to Manchester, Crewe or Leeds, which it was once said would cost well below £100bn put together.

    For that money, we could build a reusable heavy lift rocket and have our own moon landings. Probably 5x over, if we don’t let BAe near it.
    Before you can say that, we need SpaceX to build a working reusable heavy lift rocket and for the US to make their own moon landings. Because SpaceX have not yet made a reusable heavy lift rocket, and the US moon landings seem to be further away than ever. And until it's done, we cannot know the costs.
    Given the efforts by various companies, a £20bn is high end for a reusable *super* heavy booster (Starship/New Armstrong)

    A merely heavy booster (Delta IV heavy/F9H) would be much less.

    The architecture to get from that to the moon is well known and discussed- it didn't meet political considerations. See the Obama plan to cancel SLS.
    My point is we can't tell, as it's not been done yet. BO has a glacial pace atm (sadly...), whilst Musky Baby is already talking about Starship V3, when V1 and V2 failed - and V3 uses many future potential updates just to try to get the capacity that was promised for V1.

    The current architecture to get to the Moon is imperiled by the potential cancellation of SLS. Starting again afresh will be costly and, more importantly, time-consuming.
    My friends in the aerospace/space industry here in SoCal are sounding increasing downbeat about Starship - like it'll never work because the weight reductions they need to achieve compromise structural integrity too much negative. And these are people who absolutely love SpaceX.
    https://medium.com/predict/starship-was-doomed-from-the-beginning-743bf809539c
    That's interesting from an engineering perspective, but I think it gets the fundamental flaw wrong:

    Starship is failing because Musk has succeeded so many times, he thinks himself infallible.

    And therefore he's doubling down, and tripling down.

    But -yes- it is entirely likely that Starship will be a colossal failure. Fortunately for SpaceX, Falcon is by far the most cost efficient rocket on the planet. And fortunately too, Starlink is a big success.
    If I may disagree....starlink has been a finacial success but likely to be an ecological disaster in the making.
    I'm only talking financially: it's a massive cash generator for SpaceX.
    Just pointing out financial isn't the only measure, leo satellites degrade their orbits quickly not just starlink but all similar and will therefore be spreading lots of shit in the upper atmosphere...from memory a starling satellite has an expected life expectancy of about 5 years

    See now you say financially great and for example it makes musks company a billion a year....if it hastens climate change by 10 years however it may be a success for musk but not the rest of us
    "if it hastens climate change by 10 years"

    Please show your workings.
    Not a climate scientest so don't claim to show workings but people that are climate scientests are concerned

    eg
    https://www.independent.co.uk/space/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-internet-b2567423.html

    https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.15291

    https://essopenarchive.org/doi/full/10.22541/essoar.174554388.86285221
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,397
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:
    So he’s suggesting all the kids are running around with guns and therefore the IDF genocide is acceptable .

    He can go fxck himself and his desperate attempts to justify the slaughter .
    That is such a depressing tweet (and that's a hell of a field). It makes me really sad.
    It was so sad seeing the little boy desperate for food in Gaza on the BBC clip . Children are crying because of the hunger . The west should be utterly ashamed .
    Why "the West"? We don't run the world any more. China has the world's biggest economy by PPP. One of Israel's biggest allies is Russia. Israel has other major allies in, eg, Turkey (when it suits them)

    This idea of the Big Bad Evil West needs to be killed off
    I didn’t expect much from morally bankrupt regimes but stupidly expected more from the west .

    Humanity is in a very dark place .
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,426
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    Well THAT's cheered me up
    The Tories are staring into the maw.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,199
    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:
    So he’s suggesting all the kids are running around with guns and therefore the IDF genocide is acceptable .

    He can go fxck himself and his desperate attempts to justify the slaughter .
    That is such a depressing tweet (and that's a hell of a field). It makes me really sad.
    It was so sad seeing the little boy desperate for food in Gaza on the BBC clip . Children are crying because of the hunger . The west should be utterly ashamed .
    Why "the West"? We don't run the world any more. China has the world's biggest economy by PPP. One of Israel's biggest allies is Russia. Israel has other major allies in, eg, Turkey (when it suits them)

    This idea of the Big Bad Evil West needs to be killed off
    I didn’t expect much from morally bankrupt regimes but stupidly expected more from the west .

    Humanity is in a very dark place .
    Why did you figure the west has less right to be repugnant? We have had imperialism, we have had hitler, napolean, the french revolution, nena and her 99 red balloons all in the last couple of centuries
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012
    edited May 15
    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812
    edited May 15

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    TSE....And I approve this message...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012
    edited May 15
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    They also have a very poor leader, who really isn't very like-able e.g. the two footed above the knee tackle responding to trans ruling didn't set her in a good light, and they are seemingly totally devoid of much talent or any new ideas.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012
    edited May 15
    Iran using criminal gangs for hit jobs abroad, court papers show

    There has been a sharp rise in plots by the Iranian regime to kidnap or assassinate dissidents, journalists and political foes living abroad, according to reports by Western intelligence agencies.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c308p0rjq9zo
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:
    So he’s suggesting all the kids are running around with guns and therefore the IDF genocide is acceptable .

    He can go fxck himself and his desperate attempts to justify the slaughter .
    That is such a depressing tweet (and that's a hell of a field). It makes me really sad.
    It was so sad seeing the little boy desperate for food in Gaza on the BBC clip . Children are crying because of the hunger . The west should be utterly ashamed .
    Why "the West"? We don't run the world any more. China has the world's biggest economy by PPP. One of Israel's biggest allies is Russia. Israel has other major allies in, eg, Turkey (when it suits them)

    This idea of the Big Bad Evil West needs to be killed off
    I didn’t expect much from morally bankrupt regimes but stupidly expected more from the west .

    Humanity is in a very dark place .
    Oh give over, it's boring

    China runs the show now. Let them sort it out. Europe needs to defend itself, and recover its civilisation from the hordes - internal and external - that would tear it down
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    TSE....And I approve this message...
    Priti Patel backs the French:

    https://x.com/pritipatel/status/1923126313105174765

    If these reports are correct, then Calamity Lammy must be honest about the details of his trip as this is becoming an embarrassing saga for Britain’s chief diplomat and for our country.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,621
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,147

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    They also have a very poor leader, who really isn't very like-able e.g. the two footed above the knee tackle responding to trans ruling didn't set her in a good light, and they are seemingly totally devoid of much talent or any new ideas.
    They’re also continually criticising this govt for stuff that is either down to them or happened on their watch (such as the former Kent PCSO arrested for a tweet the Police misunderstood).

    Badenoch is a terrible leader so far but would any of the others be any better ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,594

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    To be fair, it's hard to think of an example of a mainstream right party that has successfully fended off a populist right rival. And now, with Reform twice as popular as the Conservatives, why should anyone who didn't offer Winston Churchill a posy of flowers in 1957 vote for the original blue team?

    It may be too late now, but the Conservatives really should have strangled UKIP at birth.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,520

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    TSE....And I approve this message...
    I think that's a direct quote from Agincourt.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222

    It may be too late now, but the Conservatives really should have strangled UKIP at birth.

    By having a referendum on Europe much sooner?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,397
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:
    So he’s suggesting all the kids are running around with guns and therefore the IDF genocide is acceptable .

    He can go fxck himself and his desperate attempts to justify the slaughter .
    That is such a depressing tweet (and that's a hell of a field). It makes me really sad.
    It was so sad seeing the little boy desperate for food in Gaza on the BBC clip . Children are crying because of the hunger . The west should be utterly ashamed .
    Why "the West"? We don't run the world any more. China has the world's biggest economy by PPP. One of Israel's biggest allies is Russia. Israel has other major allies in, eg, Turkey (when it suits them)

    This idea of the Big Bad Evil West needs to be killed off
    I didn’t expect much from morally bankrupt regimes but stupidly expected more from the west .

    Humanity is in a very dark place .
    Oh give over, it's boring

    China runs the show now. Let them sort it out. Europe needs to defend itself, and recover its civilisation from the hordes - internal and external - that would tear it down
    Oh God we’re back to that again !
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,235

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    Once it starts it can be infectious. And once the taste starts for demolishing parties it can occur again. If I were Labour, I would be looking carefully at this picture:

    21% is rubbish
    LD + Green get to 25%
    The LDs can quite possibly lift a point or two more from centrist Tories and fed up Labour
    A few Greens deciding that supporting the LDs will help the cause.

    Outcome: LD ahead of the Tories, level with Labour.

    At that point people in the 500+ seats where the LDs have not been in contention start to look again.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    To be fair, it's hard to think of an example of a mainstream right party that has successfully fended off a populist right rival. And now, with Reform twice as popular as the Conservatives, why should anyone who didn't offer Winston Churchill a posy of flowers in 1957 vote for the original blue team?

    It may be too late now, but the Conservatives really should have strangled UKIP at birth.
    Well Reform did die, albeit Farage jumping ship did that, but despite initial splashes it's not like Brexit becoming a successful ReformUK was obviously going to succeed so well.

    I do wonder if the mere fact of getting 5 MPs instead of, say, 2, made a lot of difference despite being marginal in numbers. It just sounds more significant, and they have built on it in a way I doubt the Tories expected - Reform barely bothered with local elections last year, and in part I think that would have been ability not just lack of desire, but getting those 5, a decent if small number, launched them into 'proper' party status and they were able to get hundreds more people to stand as a result.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,272
    edited May 15
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    Once it starts it can be infectious. And once the taste starts for demolishing parties it can occur again. If I were Labour, I would be looking carefully at this picture:

    21% is rubbish
    LD + Green get to 25%
    The LDs can quite possibly lift a point or two more from centrist Tories and fed up Labour
    A few Greens deciding that supporting the LDs will help the cause.

    Outcome: LD ahead of the Tories, level with Labour.

    At that point people in the 500+ seats where the LDs have not been in contention start to look again.....
    The trouble is, the LDs have not yet had any polls either level with or ahead of the Tories and I wonder if it will ever happen.

    The polls where the Lib Dems are are 16 or 17% are the same ones that put Conservative at 19 or 20. Those that have Tories in the mid teens have LD at a lowly 13-14%. They seem, if anything, autocorrelated.

    I wonder if that’s because the remaining Tory vote is affluent rural traditionalists who likely shop at Waitrose and may well choose whether to participate in polls on similar bases to Lib Dem voters.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,062
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    Set out the 2 things they need to do earlier.
    PR. And blame Nige's Brexit for their failure.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,621
    There was a photo of Sunak with a really tall bloke yet did the rounds wasn’t there?

    https://x.com/christopherhope/status/1922941284651524361?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,272
    UK party affiliation by attitude to Trump:

    Trump is:

    Reform: a hero
    Tory: a bit worrying
    Labour: the president of the USA
    Lib Dem: vulgar and uncouth
    Green: an evil Nazi
    SNP: not actually Scottish
    Plaid: certainly not Welsh
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,347
    .
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    Taz said:
    So he’s suggesting all the kids are running around with guns and therefore the IDF genocide is acceptable .

    He can go fxck himself and his desperate attempts to justify the slaughter .
    That is such a depressing tweet (and that's a hell of a field). It makes me really sad.
    It was so sad seeing the little boy desperate for food in Gaza on the BBC clip . Children are crying because of the hunger . The west should be utterly ashamed .
    Why "the West"? We don't run the world any more. China has the world's biggest economy by PPP. One of Israel's biggest allies is Russia. Israel has other major allies in, eg, Turkey (when it suits them)

    This idea of the Big Bad Evil West needs to be killed off
    I didn’t expect much from morally bankrupt regimes but stupidly expected more from the west .

    Humanity is in a very dark place .
    Oh give over, it's boring

    China runs the show now. Let them sort it out. Europe needs to defend itself, and recover its civilisation from the hordes - internal and external - that would tear it down
    It's not Chinese bombs dropping on Gaza.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,235
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    Once it starts it can be infectious. And once the taste starts for demolishing parties it can occur again. If I were Labour, I would be looking carefully at this picture:

    21% is rubbish
    LD + Green get to 25%
    The LDs can quite possibly lift a point or two more from centrist Tories and fed up Labour
    A few Greens deciding that supporting the LDs will help the cause.

    Outcome: LD ahead of the Tories, level with Labour.

    At that point people in the 500+ seats where the LDs have not been in contention start to look again.....
    The trouble is, the LDs have not yet had any polls either level with or ahead of the Tories and I wonder if it will ever happen.

    The polls where the Lib Dems are are 16 or 17% are the same ones that put Conservative at 19 or 20. Those that have Tories in the mid terms have LD at a lowly 13-14%. They seem, if anything, autocorrelated.

    I wonder if that’s because the remaining Tory vote is affluent rural traditionalists who likely shop at Waitrose and may well choose whether to participate in polls on similar bases to Lib Dem voters.
    This may be right. Hopwever, the gap recently between LD and Tory polling has been between 1 %point and 6 %points. the real gap may be only about 3 points. On current trends the LD and Tory lines meet and cross over in a matter of a few weeks. The Tories registered a 27% and a 24% in polls only a month or so ago. Change is rapid.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,132
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now. Is there a danger that if it becomes clear that a vote for the Tories is a wasted one in lots of places that even more of their natural supporters jump ship. A downward spiral effect.
    To be fair, it's hard to think of an example of a mainstream right party that has successfully fended off a populist right rival. And now, with Reform twice as popular as the Conservatives, why should anyone who didn't offer Winston Churchill a posy of flowers in 1957 vote for the original blue team?

    It may be too late now, but the Conservatives really should have strangled UKIP at birth.
    Well Reform did die, albeit Farage jumping ship did that, but despite initial splashes it's not like Brexit becoming a successful ReformUK was obviously going to succeed so well.

    I do wonder if the mere fact of getting 5 MPs instead of, say, 2, made a lot of difference despite being marginal in numbers. It just sounds more significant, and they have built on it in a way I doubt the Tories expected - Reform barely bothered with local elections last year, and in part I think that would have been ability not just lack of desire, but getting those 5, a decent if small number, launched them into 'proper' party status and they were able to get hundreds more people to stand as a result.
    The critics were both right and wrong. They set that there would be dreadful fallings out and Nigel's ego would get in the way, and that was right. They also said that Reform MPs would be a bunch of lazy embarrassing yobs propping up the HOC bars, and that was very definitely wrong. If every Tory MP worked as hard as a Reform MP, things would look very different for that party.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,401
    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,198
    carnforth said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Trump may get his birthright citizenship ban. Or, at least, stopping it may be harder than thought:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/15/politics/supreme-court-birthright-citizenship-nationwide-injunctions-executive-order

    At least part of Trump’s argument appeared to find purchase on the conservative court: That lower court judges were too frequently shutting down the president’s policies with too little review.

    But that left several of the conservatives questioning what to do, in the meantime, with Trump’s policy, which appears to conflict directly with the text of the 14th Amendment.


    That's a complicated way of describing their real challenge - that they don't want to say no to a Republican president, but the direct text apparently means they have little option, even as creative as they can be.
    Traditionally, the consevatives aren't creative, because they are strict constructionists, who don't believe the constitution is a living document, right? Or maybe that's only some of them.
    It's a fantasy they put about. They often introduce very innovative approaches, as with giving Trump immunity and various 2nd amendment decisions.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,272
    edited May 15
    Tactical voting - negative tactical voting - is going to play a big part in 2029.

    Any constituency where it was Lab-Con-Lib last time but where Reform got a decent score will see consolidation of the anti-Reform vote, and probably around Labour.

    I’m interested in seats where Tory-Lab-Lib were top 3 last time but Reform were nowhere, including in this year’s locals. Those seats I think are going Lib Dem, even if they were third in 24.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,235
    edited May 15
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,198
    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    And he was still a much better president than Trump!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,819
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,827
    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,132
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    To me, her biggest failure is internal. When it was briefed to the press that she 'spent the day doomscrolling on her phone' after the local election results, it really couldn't have made the utterly toxic nature of CCHQ any clearer. No other leader of any party is subjected to that type of thing from their own party - after shadow cabinet meetings, by MPs, by 'Senior Tories', by 'former Ministers' etc. etc. etc.

    If she does an Augean stables clear out of the malevolent sacks of shit who make up her own party staff, she'll have at least one solid achievement as leader under her belt.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
    It seems to be available for everyone to read. Don't know whether that's usual for Nate.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/did-the-media-blow-it-on-biden
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    And he was still a much better president than Trump!
    Yes but why cover it up when a much earlier process to select a new candidate would have been better.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,756
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    "Unexpectedly"? I had zero expectations of her as she took over other than "she wasn't as god-awful as that other candidate". I'm not enough of a politics historian/geek to judge - but it does feel from the outside like the conservative party is whimpering on the back porch - aware and yet fearful of it's impending death.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,132
    ohnotnow said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    "Unexpectedly"? I had zero expectations of her as she took over other than "she wasn't as god-awful as that other candidate". I'm not enough of a politics historian/geek to judge - but it does feel from the outside like the conservative party is whimpering on the back porch - aware and yet fearful of it's impending death.
    What a revolting metaphor.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812
    edited May 15

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,756
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    And he was still a much better president than Trump!
    Yes but why cover it up when a much earlier process to select a new candidate would have been better.
    Because it's what everyone else was doing? The political press are a herd.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
    Beginning to? Yeah, right.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,094

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    To me, her biggest failure is internal. When it was briefed to the press that she 'spent the day doomscrolling on her phone' after the local election results, it really couldn't have made the utterly toxic nature of CCHQ any clearer. No other leader of any party is subjected to that type of thing from their own party - after shadow cabinet meetings, by MPs, by 'Senior Tories', by 'former Ministers' etc. etc. etc.

    If she does an Augean stables clear out of the malevolent sacks of shit who make up her own party staff, she'll have at least one solid achievement as leader under her belt.
    I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Baxtered, that FON gives a Ref majority of 188, with Lab on 100 seats and the Conservatives on 8.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    A slightly odd choice of words from John Curtice imo.

    "John Curtice
    Soon the makeup of the British population will be very different. How will politics change?
    Both the Conservatives and Reform are – in the long term – seemingly at risk of being cast away by a gradually ebbing tide"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/15/demographics-politics-transformation-stats/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,621
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
    It seems to be available for everyone to read. Don't know whether that's usual for Nate.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/did-the-media-blow-it-on-biden
    🤣

    “For instance, according to reporting in Fight, after Biden told a group of Democratic governors that he’d have to avoid scheduling events after 8 p.m., one of them wondered what might happen if a foreign policy crisis unfolded late at night. “Somebody better tell the Chinese when they can attack us, because I don’t want [them] to do that and wake him up.’”
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,827
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    He's also only four months into his Presidency.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
    It seems to be available for everyone to read. Don't know whether that's usual for Nate.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/did-the-media-blow-it-on-biden
    🤣

    “For instance, according to reporting in Fight, after Biden told a group of Democratic governors that he’d have to avoid scheduling events after 8 p.m., one of them wondered what might happen if a foreign policy crisis unfolded late at night. “Somebody better tell the Chinese when they can attack us, because I don’t want [them] to do that and wake him up.’”
    Trump doesnt do morning meetings.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,812
    edited May 15
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    He's also only four months into his Presidency.
    Quite so - he's not end of presidency Biden, but people are downplaying what such an old guy in that job is already like and what he could be in 2-3 years (with the glazers on one side and those focusing on being horrified by him on the other).

    When his biggest fans like to talk up how fit and handsome and great at golf he is, there's no way his frailties will be openly admitted.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,094

    ohnotnow said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    "Unexpectedly"? I had zero expectations of her as she took over other than "she wasn't as god-awful as that other candidate". I'm not enough of a politics historian/geek to judge - but it does feel from the outside like the conservative party is whimpering on the back porch - aware and yet fearful of it's impending death.
    What a revolting metaphor.
    Yes, I winced at that apostophe too.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,006
    TimS said:

    Tactical voting - negative tactical voting - is going to play a big part in 2029.

    Any constituency where it was Lab-Con-Lib last time but where Reform got a decent score will see consolidation of the anti-Reform vote, and probably around Labour.

    I’m interested in seats where Tory-Lab-Lib were top 3 last time but Reform were nowhere, including in this year’s locals. Those seats I think are going Lib Dem, even if they were third in 24.

    LibDems - Spinning Here!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,272
    edited May 15
    The conservatives were never going to get much of a hearing only 1 year into opposition after a thorough thrashing. They needed time for people to forgive and forget. Eventually the new government would get unpopular and they would recover.

    The trouble is another right wing party with none of the baggage of government has appeared and nicked those recovery votes just as the government gets unpopular.

    I’m not sure there’s anything that they could realistically have done to change this dynamic, short of going full Farage or full on rejoin / hug-a-hoodie.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012

    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    There's a really good piece by Nate Silver on that today.

    (It's also worth noting that we're beginning to see some of those same issues with Trump - which shouldn't surprise us.)
    It seems to be available for everyone to read. Don't know whether that's usual for Nate.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/did-the-media-blow-it-on-biden
    🤣

    “For instance, according to reporting in Fight, after Biden told a group of Democratic governors that he’d have to avoid scheduling events after 8 p.m., one of them wondered what might happen if a foreign policy crisis unfolded late at night. “Somebody better tell the Chinese when they can attack us, because I don’t want [them] to do that and wake him up.’”
    Trump doesnt do morning meetings.
    Neither do I....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012
    edited May 15
    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Most people are going to be very disappointed....when Starmer claims victory by getting net migration down to 350k.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,609
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    He's also only four months into his Presidency.
    I’ve got this crazy idea. Run someone for President who is physically fit, mid-40s, with excellent cognition, empathy and flexibility of mind.

    It’s not like there a shortage of people who want the job.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222
    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    Not sure why but there seems to be a clear link between strong RefUK areas and levels of obesity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/north-yorkshire-humber-london-hartlepool-rotherham-b2746561.html
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,094

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Not much of a comfort blanket. Demented Biden wasn't evil before he became demented. Demented Biden wasn't surrounded by sycophants (well, no more so than normal for a boss.) Demented Biden had an oh-so-inadequate -and-terrible-at-politics-but-actually-human vp. None of this applies to Trump. Demented Trump is possibly even less appealing and certainly more unpredictable a prospect than sane Trump.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,609
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    Compare him to film of 90s Trump. He is a caricature of himself.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,094
    Andy_JS said:

    Not sure why but there seems to be a clear link between strong RefUK areas and levels of obesity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/north-yorkshire-humber-london-hartlepool-rotherham-b2746561.html

    Both are correlated with poverty.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,520
    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    So 5% is the Conservative floor ;)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,520

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Most people are going to be very disappointed....when Starmer claims victory by getting net migration down to 350k.
    A 2/3rd reduction will be the (accurate) spin.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,012

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    Compare him to film of 90s Trump. He is a caricature of himself.
    How much is it age and how much is that this weird patter has got him elected twice so it seems to work with the voters e.g. that low tech comedy sized cardboard tables for the tariffs that is deliberate.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
    Not sure I understand the point you're making.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    Shall we go back to the many many threads where I said “look Biden is gaga, this is a problem”

    And the usual centrist dad dullards on here kept saying “no he’s always had a stammer and he likes falling over and drooling”
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,094

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    Compare him to film of 90s Trump. He is a caricature of himself.
    I don't know. Not 90s, but this Trump from 2007 is essentially the same character we now have in the White House:
    https://youtu.be/jkghtyxZ6rc?si=Qm4_Wq31kgUa5syD
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222
    When you give people a range of options there is a tendency for them to choose something in the middle, so those options push people to choose a positive number.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Perhaps those wanting negative migration should help their own cause and bugger off.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931

    When you give people a range of options there is a tendency for them to choose something in the middle, so those options push people to choose a positive number.

    I don't know how the poll was presented as questions, this is how it's being presented as results. They might not be the same.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,397
    Andy_JS said:

    Not sure why but there seems to be a clear link between strong RefUK areas and levels of obesity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/north-yorkshire-humber-london-hartlepool-rotherham-b2746561.html

    Was there also a link with ASBO’s ?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    Andy_JS said:

    A slightly odd choice of words from John Curtice imo.

    "John Curtice
    Soon the makeup of the British population will be very different. How will politics change?
    Both the Conservatives and Reform are – in the long term – seemingly at risk of being cast away by a gradually ebbing tide"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/15/demographics-politics-transformation-stats/

    An unusually stupid analysis from curtice. Maybe he’s past it

    I predict: a populist right wing party is going to emerge across Europe. It will be overtly right wing, Christian and - I’m sorry but I have to be blunt - white. And it will be extremely successful

    This is an inevitable consequence of the racial/cultural sectarianism arising in European politics consequent on economic stagnation and mass immigration. For every action a reaction

    It should never have been this way. It is a sad thing. But now inevitable
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,733
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A slightly odd choice of words from John Curtice imo.

    "John Curtice
    Soon the makeup of the British population will be very different. How will politics change?
    Both the Conservatives and Reform are – in the long term – seemingly at risk of being cast away by a gradually ebbing tide"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/15/demographics-politics-transformation-stats/

    An unusually stupid analysis from curtice. Maybe he’s past it

    I predict: a populist right wing party is going to emerge across Europe. It will be overtly right wing, Christian and - I’m sorry but I have to be blunt - white. And it will be extremely successful

    This is an inevitable consequence of the racial/cultural sectarianism arising in European politics consequent on economic stagnation and mass immigration. For every action a reaction

    It should never have been this way. It is a sad thing. But now inevitable
    You have been having these wishes for ten years on here. Back then it was about putting all the British Muslims... somewhere. Not much different here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,702
    edited May 15
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
    Not sure I understand the point you're making.
    I believe William's point is (and he does sound frustrated in my narrative) who the f*** are Merlin Strategies and why is that spanner Goodwin reposting this s***e!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A slightly odd choice of words from John Curtice imo.

    "John Curtice
    Soon the makeup of the British population will be very different. How will politics change?
    Both the Conservatives and Reform are – in the long term – seemingly at risk of being cast away by a gradually ebbing tide"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/15/demographics-politics-transformation-stats/

    An unusually stupid analysis from curtice. Maybe he’s past it

    I predict: a populist right wing party is going to emerge across Europe. It will be overtly right wing, Christian and - I’m sorry but I have to be blunt - white. And it will be extremely successful

    This is an inevitable consequence of the racial/cultural sectarianism arising in European politics consequent on economic stagnation and mass immigration. For every action a reaction

    It should never have been this way. It is a sad thing. But now inevitable
    You have been having these wishes for ten years on here. Back then it was about putting all the British Muslims... somewhere. Not much different here.
    If that is the case (I dispute it, I was a lurker until a year ago) then I have clearly been proven correct, with the ascendenacy of the populist right across Europe, now taking over entire governments

    Basically, I'm right about everything. Especially big things. Governments should hire me
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,397
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A slightly odd choice of words from John Curtice imo.

    "John Curtice
    Soon the makeup of the British population will be very different. How will politics change?
    Both the Conservatives and Reform are – in the long term – seemingly at risk of being cast away by a gradually ebbing tide"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/15/demographics-politics-transformation-stats/

    An unusually stupid analysis from curtice. Maybe he’s past it

    I predict: a populist right wing party is going to emerge across Europe. It will be overtly right wing, Christian and - I’m sorry but I have to be blunt - white. And it will be extremely successful

    This is an inevitable consequence of the racial/cultural sectarianism arising in European politics consequent on economic stagnation and mass immigration. For every action a reaction

    It should never have been this way. It is a sad thing. But now inevitable
    You have been having these wishes for ten years on here. Back then it was about putting all the British Muslims... somewhere. Not much different here.
    If that is the case (I dispute it, I was a lurker until a year ago) then I have clearly been proven correct, with the ascendenacy of the populist right across Europe, now taking over entire governments

    Basically, I'm right about everything. Especially big things. Governments should hire me
    You’d cost them a fortune in legal fees !
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,560
    Is PB ever going to break down in sobs and say

    "Shit, Leon was right, about everything*"

    Because the time is coming when you really should

    *Except Liz Truss (and what3words MAYBE)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,609

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Astonishing to read this in black and white. (FPT).

    "The Biden cover-up
    The extent of the president’s decline was concealed by his desperate team. The reality was even worse than it seemed.
    By Freddie Hayward

    We now know Biden was senile during his presidency. He would fail to recognise decades-old acquaintances, or freeze with his mouth agape. His annual exam suspiciously did not include a cognitive test. Aides gave him black Hoka trainers to straighten his gait and began walking beside him to his helicopter in order to literally catch him if he tripped. Congressional Democrats left meetings with him thinking of their parents with dementia. Around Thanksgiving, Biden was handed cue-cards in case he was asked what he was thankful for. His team debated pushing him around in a wheelchair and laid down fluorescent tape to guide him through parties with few people. Like puppeteers, they used contraptions to bring him to life."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/book-of-the-day/2025/05/the-biden-cover-up

    You can watch it in real time

    Guy forgetting why he is in the room.
    Guy forgetting peoples' names.
    Guy being guided by staff when he wanders off.

    oh, wait, that's the other guy...
    I think it seems to be a comfort blanket for some to imagine that Trump is as far down the dementia road as Biden. Trouble is, it’s just not true. Trump is essentially a typical late seventies old man. My dad is a shade older and has been calling me Pete (his brothers name) or Jim (his brother in laws name) for years, if not decades. He hasn’t got dementia, and neither does Trump.
    Biden, on the other hand, has it rather severely and those who conspired to cover this up, for whatever reason, have led to Trump #2.
    Trump appears to be extremely erratic and incoherent, but he was that to some degree already, and his need for vainglorious boasting means he would have to be 100x better than he is to match his own claims. He will get worse - pressures of that job and his age - and his behaviour is oddly normalised, but he's clearly not in as fragile a state yet.
    Compare him to film of 90s Trump. He is a caricature of himself.
    How much is it age and how much is that this weird patter has got him elected twice so it seems to work with the voters e.g. that low tech comedy sized cardboard tables for the tariffs that is deliberate.
    Compare him, Biden and Guliani with their 90s selves. There’s a pattern there.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,009

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
    Not sure I understand the point you're making.
    I believe William's point is (and he does sound frustrated in my narrative) who the f*** are Merlin Strategies and why is that spanner Goodwin reposting this s***e!
    Who?
    According to companies house they've been in existence since 15 April 25, single director
    Why Goodwin retweeting?
    Photo of the director on the website is easy on the eye, supports his narrative
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,939

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    Remarkable way the Sun presents that story. If you don't go past the front page you would understand Lammy refused to pay his taxi fare and called the driver racist names. You have to turn to page 4 to find out he had paid the fare in advance, the driver tried to extort a further €700 out of him, threatened Lammy and his wife, drove off with his luggage, helped himself to money from Lammy's suitcase and is now under arrest.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222
    Dopermean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
    Not sure I understand the point you're making.
    I believe William's point is (and he does sound frustrated in my narrative) who the f*** are Merlin Strategies and why is that spanner Goodwin reposting this s***e!
    Who?
    According to companies house they've been in existence since 15 April 25, single director
    Why Goodwin retweeting?
    Photo of the director on the website is easy on the eye, supports his narrative
    The all important bit for @Mexicanpete

    https://merlinstrategy.com/#about

    We are applying for BPC accreditation and will abide by their disclosure rules.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    Leon said:

    Is PB ever going to break down in sobs and say

    "Shit, Leon was right, about everything*"

    Because the time is coming when you really should

    *Except Liz Truss (and what3words MAYBE)

    Err, if you could really predict everything, why don't you tell us......
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,009
    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Not sure why but there seems to be a clear link between strong RefUK areas and levels of obesity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/north-yorkshire-humber-london-hartlepool-rotherham-b2746561.html

    Was there also a link with ASBO’s ?

    There's also a link with low social mobility according to Sutton trust.
    According to electoral calculus demographics of most successful and least successful areas are similar in most aspects.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    Leon said:

    Is PB ever going to break down in sobs and say

    "Shit, Leon was right, about everything*"

    Because the time is coming when you really should

    *Except Liz Truss (and what3words MAYBE)

    Did you predict the Scotland and Brexit referendums correctly? Can't remember.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,222
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/chagos-islands-deal-mauritius-diego-garcia-5r2zxjvmn

    The Government has delayed the Chagos Islands handover to Mauritius amid fears of a "toxic backlash" from Labour MPs who are being asked to vote for welfare cuts
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,009
    FF43 said:

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    Remarkable way the Sun presents that story. If you don't go past the front page you would understand Lammy refused to pay his taxi fare and called the driver racist names. You have to turn to page 4 to find out he had paid the fare in advance, the driver tried to extort a further €700 out of him, threatened Lammy and his wife, drove off with his luggage, helped himself to money from Lammy's suitcase and is now under arrest.
    It would be odd for the taxi driver to go to the police, unless the police are in his pocket. Since it's probably not his home town, they probably aren't.

    Putting aside the taxi driver stealing from the luggage, of course.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    edited May 15
    "@ElectionMapsUK

    Birches Head & Northwood (Stoke-on-Trent) Council By-Election Result:

    RefUK 1226
    Lab 449
    Cit Ind 346
    Con 73

    ➡️ RFM: 58.5% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 21.4% (-22.4)
    🏘️ CI: 16.5% (-15.3)
    🌳 CON: 3.5% (-16.3)

    No GRN (-4.5) as previous.

    Reform GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2023."

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1923152606769111413
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,601
    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    The Sun puts Lammy’s taxi-gate on the front page:

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1923115936455737517

    Remarkable way the Sun presents that story. If you don't go past the front page you would understand Lammy refused to pay his taxi fare and called the driver racist names. You have to turn to page 4 to find out he had paid the fare in advance, the driver tried to extort a further €700 out of him, threatened Lammy and his wife, drove off with his luggage, helped himself to money from Lammy's suitcase and is now under arrest.
    It would be odd for the taxi driver to go to the police, unless the police are in his pocket. Since it's probably not his home town, they probably aren't.

    Putting aside the taxi driver stealing from the luggage, of course.
    Sacked by his employer too. Doesn't really sound like he was in the right.....
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,009

    Dopermean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Levels of net migration desired by voters according to StrategyMerlin.

    Negative: 23%
    Nil: 23%
    1 to 10K: 17%
    10K to 100K: 22%
    100K to 500K: 10%
    500K to 1m: 3%
    More than 1m: 2%

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1922942319742812295

    Such a biased poll. What is nil not the central answer?
    Not sure I understand the point you're making.
    I believe William's point is (and he does sound frustrated in my narrative) who the f*** are Merlin Strategies and why is that spanner Goodwin reposting this s***e!
    Who?
    According to companies house they've been in existence since 15 April 25, single director
    Why Goodwin retweeting?
    Photo of the director on the website is easy on the eye, supports his narrative
    The all important bit for @Mexicanpete

    https://merlinstrategy.com/#about

    We are applying for BPC accreditation and will abide by their disclosure rules.
    Not "do" ? LOL
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,581
    dixiedean said:

    The Tories need to do two things to survive.
    Get behind PR now. They have a future on 16% then.
    Secondly. Repudiate Brexit. Say it was the real reason for all their incompetence. And what is Starmer doing persisting with it? The madman.
    It was all that blithering idiot Nigel's idea. Cretin.
    It's incredibly cynical. But it's the Tory Party we're talking about.

    Short of bringing Boris back as leader (which polls show would put the Conservatives in the lead again) then yes PR might be their best bet and also Starmer's best bet for staying PM with LD backing and keeping out Farage.

    Repudiating Brexit would be absurd though given over half the current Conservative vote still voted Leave, if the Tories became a centre right anti Brexit party they would be virtually indistinguishable from the centrist anti Brexit LDs anyway and may as well merge with them. Leaving the rest to go off to the harder right, pro full fat Brexit Reform
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,827

    When you give people a range of options there is a tendency for them to choose something in the middle, so those options push people to choose a positive number.

    Indeed:

    A fair question would probably be: what do you think that the approximate correct proportion of foreign born people in the UK should be?

    We could ask that without offering multiple options, and then we could base immigration policy around that.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,425
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FON has:

    Ref: 33%, Lab 21%, Con 16%, Lib Dem 14%, Green 11%.

    The Tories are well through that 20% floor now.
    Things can spiral quickly with FPTP. They had a bad hand after 14 years in office which ended terribly, but I struggle to see an obvious way to turn things around which is in their own hands - out Reforming Reform won't work, not following them doesn't work, and they're not strong enough to attack them outright.
    A Farage faux pas/health issue combined with change of Conservative leader perhaps?
    Fargage does seem key - he's been around long enough to have plenty of ammunition to throw at him, but he's still standing and effective, but it'd have to be something egregious to derail him a quick manner.

    With Kemi there doesn't seem much energy there. I get LD type vibes of struggling to get attention, fairly or not, and lack of attention is probably survivable when your niche is not being eaten in to, but it is, and even a riskier more divisive leader might be better if it means they get more viewtime - for them, even the bad publicity would be good, to remind people they are there.
    Kemi has been unexpectedly sub optimal. I don't think she is good at being populist and if she is trying to be I haven't noticed; she could at least have stuck enough intelligent thinking into the public domain so that thoughtful centrists had something to take in and think about. Half hearted pragmatism and unconvincing opposing of things is the image.

    It would be nice to be given an idea what she thinks Toryism is about. I'm one of the long term ex loyalists she is needing to get back.
    Unexpected by whom?

    Plenty on here said she was the wrong leader at the wrong time. Her crap performance in cabinet was a strong indicator of how things would go as LotO.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,425
    Taz said:

    I have just seen served an ad for Aston Martin integration with Apply Carplay...what the f##k is the look of Aston Martin's these days, it looks like a Kia SUV. Nought wrong with KIA these days, but the ladies would laugh at James Bond if he pulled up to the Monte Carlo Casino in that thing.

    Dura Ace is your man for that.
    AM have to build an SUV because it's a high margin, high demand product in the markets that count: China, Middle East, USA.

    I agree that DBX did not have to look quite so... mundanely Asian. I think it looks more Chinese than Korean, who lean more toward the Cyberpunk 2077 aesthetic lately. They could have compromised interior packaging for a more distinctive look like Ferrari Purosangue but DBX has been a massive sales success and is probably keeping AM alive at this point.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    edited May 15
    "WEST DUNBARTONSHIRE Clydebank Waterfront

    Stage I only

    Kevin Crawford (Scottish National Party (SNP)) 1,039
    David Smith (Reform UK) 768
    Maureen McGlinchey (Scottish Labour Party) 739
    Cameron Eoin Stewart (Scottish Liberal Democrats) 138
    Brian Walker (Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party) 84
    Eryn Browning (Scottish Greens) 76
    Kristopher Duncan (Alba Party for independence) 47
    Andrew Joseph Muir (Scottish Family Party) 25"


    "Acle (Broadland) Council By-Election Result:

    ➡️ RFM: 33.2% (New)
    🌳 CON: 21.4% (-25.4)
    🌍 GRN: 20.6% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 19.2% (-23.2)
    🔶 LDM: 5.6% (-5.2)

    Reform GAIN from Conservative.
    Changes w/ 2023."



    "Whetstone (Barnet) Council By-Election Result:

    🌹 LAB: 33.5% (-18.0)
    🌳 CON: 28.4% (-7.8)
    ➡️ RFM: 20.5% (New)
    🌍 GRN: 7.2% (-5.1)
    🔶 LDM: 6.1% (New)
    🇪🇺 REU: 2.3% (New)
    🧑‍🔧 TUSC: 1.6% (New)
    🙋 Ind: 0.5% (New)

    Labour HOLD.
    Changes w/ 2022."

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19363/local-council-elections-15th-2025?page=2
  • vikvik Posts: 365
    Andy_JS said:

    "WEST DUNBARTONSHIRE Clydebank Waterfront

    Stage I only

    Kevin Crawford (Scottish National Party (SNP)) 1,039
    David Smith (Reform UK) 768
    Maureen McGlinchey (Scottish Labour Party) 739
    Cameron Eoin Stewart (Scottish Liberal Democrats) 138
    Brian Walker (Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party) 84
    Eryn Browning (Scottish Greens) 76
    Kristopher Duncan (Alba Party for independence) 47
    Andrew Joseph Muir (Scottish Family Party) 25"


    "Acle (Broadland) Council By-Election Result:

    ➡️ RFM: 33.2% (New)
    🌳 CON: 21.4% (-25.4)
    🌍 GRN: 20.6% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 19.2% (-23.2)
    🔶 LDM: 5.6% (-5.2)

    Reform GAIN from Conservative.
    Changes w/ 2023."



    "Whetstone (Barnet) Council By-Election Result:

    🌹 LAB: 33.5% (-18.0)
    🌳 CON: 28.4% (-7.8)
    ➡️ RFM: 20.5% (New)
    🌍 GRN: 7.2% (-5.1)
    🔶 LDM: 6.1% (New)
    🇪🇺 REU: 2.3% (New)
    🧑‍🔧 TUSC: 1.6% (New)
    🙋 Ind: 0.5% (New)

    Labour HOLD.
    Changes w/ 2022."

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19363/local-council-elections-15th-2025?page=2

    Converting the West Dunbartonshire results into Percentages and comparing with the 2022 results:

    SNP: 36% (-16.7)
    REF: 26% (New)
    LAB: 25% (-12.1)
    LDM: 5% (New)
    CON: 3% (-4.8)
    GRN: 3% (New)
    ALBA: 2% (New)
    FAM: 1% (New)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydebank_Waterfront_(ward)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,931
    edited May 15
    Theoretically Ref or Lab could win the Clydebank election after preferences are redistributed. Interesting to see what happens.
  • vikvik Posts: 365
    vik said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "WEST DUNBARTONSHIRE Clydebank Waterfront

    Stage I only

    Kevin Crawford (Scottish National Party (SNP)) 1,039
    David Smith (Reform UK) 768
    Maureen McGlinchey (Scottish Labour Party) 739
    Cameron Eoin Stewart (Scottish Liberal Democrats) 138
    Brian Walker (Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party) 84
    Eryn Browning (Scottish Greens) 76
    Kristopher Duncan (Alba Party for independence) 47
    Andrew Joseph Muir (Scottish Family Party) 25"


    "Acle (Broadland) Council By-Election Result:

    ➡️ RFM: 33.2% (New)
    🌳 CON: 21.4% (-25.4)
    🌍 GRN: 20.6% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 19.2% (-23.2)
    🔶 LDM: 5.6% (-5.2)

    Reform GAIN from Conservative.
    Changes w/ 2023."



    "Whetstone (Barnet) Council By-Election Result:

    🌹 LAB: 33.5% (-18.0)
    🌳 CON: 28.4% (-7.8)
    ➡️ RFM: 20.5% (New)
    🌍 GRN: 7.2% (-5.1)
    🔶 LDM: 6.1% (New)
    🇪🇺 REU: 2.3% (New)
    🧑‍🔧 TUSC: 1.6% (New)
    🙋 Ind: 0.5% (New)

    Labour HOLD.
    Changes w/ 2022."

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19363/local-council-elections-15th-2025?page=2

    Converting the West Dunbartonshire results into Percentages and comparing with the 2022 results:

    SNP: 36% (-16.7)
    REF: 26% (New)
    LAB: 25% (-12.1)
    LDM: 5% (New)
    CON: 3% (-4.8)
    GRN: 3% (New)
    ALBA: 2% (New)
    FAM: 1% (New)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydebank_Waterfront_(ward)
    Minor correction, sorry ... The FAM (Scottish Family Party) should be -1.7 and not "New".

    Anyway, the results are extremely interesting & show that Reform could be strong electoral force in Scotland too.
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