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America is going to the dogs – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,509
    pm215 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    If a church gets repurposed as a bar, or a restaurant or housing or even a mosque then so what. At least it’s bringing a barely used building back into use. I cannot find it in me to care at all either way.
    I suspect a lot of them won't be repurposed, though -- churches as buildings are typically not very well suited for other uses, and the maintenance, restoration and conservation bills are enormous.

    (I have also seen the argument that medieval churches are not very well suited for CofE worship either -- http://norfolkchurches.co.uk/translation/translation.htm (and the bit about Cawston and Salle that it links to) suggests that the Reformation took out both the need for such large structures and also the funding model that built and maintained them.)
    https://secretldn.com/mercato-mayfair-italian-food-hall/

    Is an interesting use of an old church. In medieval times, churches and cathedrals got used for a lot more than just prayer. Markets, social events etc….
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,956

    pm215 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    If a church gets repurposed as a bar, or a restaurant or housing or even a mosque then so what. At least it’s bringing a barely used building back into use. I cannot find it in me to care at all either way.
    I suspect a lot of them won't be repurposed, though -- churches as buildings are typically not very well suited for other uses, and the maintenance, restoration and conservation bills are enormous.

    (I have also seen the argument that medieval churches are not very well suited for CofE worship either -- http://norfolkchurches.co.uk/translation/translation.htm (and the bit about Cawston and Salle that it links to) suggests that the Reformation took out both the need for such large structures and also the funding model that built and maintained them.)
    https://secretldn.com/mercato-mayfair-italian-food-hall/

    Is an interesting use of an old church. In medieval times, churches and cathedrals got used for a lot more than just prayer. Markets, social events etc….
    It's the rural church buildings which will be the problem, I would think. I am a member of the Churches Conservation Trust. But their churches do feel soulless.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,952
    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,952

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    So troubled souls looking to seek solace in a church are instead forced to hang out in a bar?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,263

    pm215 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    If a church gets repurposed as a bar, or a restaurant or housing or even a mosque then so what. At least it’s bringing a barely used building back into use. I cannot find it in me to care at all either way.
    I suspect a lot of them won't be repurposed, though -- churches as buildings are typically not very well suited for other uses, and the maintenance, restoration and conservation bills are enormous.

    (I have also seen the argument that medieval churches are not very well suited for CofE worship either -- http://norfolkchurches.co.uk/translation/translation.htm (and the bit about Cawston and Salle that it links to) suggests that the Reformation took out both the need for such large structures and also the funding model that built and maintained them.)
    https://secretldn.com/mercato-mayfair-italian-food-hall/

    Is an interesting use of an old church. In medieval times, churches and cathedrals got used for a lot more than just prayer. Markets, social events etc….
    That's the best case -- and even though it has a great location, it still spent two decades on the Buildings at Risk register before eventually finding someone willing to take it on long term, and it cost five million quid to renovate...
  • novanova Posts: 782

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    Presumably the article sets out why it matters. It's not obvious to me either, but I ha en't read the article and it's behind a paywall. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might.
    From this vantage point, the CoE looks like it believes in nothing except identity politics and climate change, but I am only a distant observer.
    I read the article and it merely stated it mattered, without giving much of a reason why.

    The architecture was mentioned, though nobody really is proposing demolishing Churches - them getting repurposed to bars and restaurants keeps the architecture going in a far more productive 21st century use.

    PS great game at Anfield. A couple of goals in as many minutes. :)
    It quoted Simon Jenkins saying they were very important, which is even better than any facts or arguments.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,516

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    Heralding Cameron's chumocracy and that chap off Facebook.

    We poke fun at Trump for hiring TV presenters but David Cameron surrounded himself with mates from Oxford and enough Old Etonians to fill a Tardis back to the 1930s.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,555

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Bad Al warming up for trying to overturn the Brexit vote by plotting to get Brown to squat in No10 after losing a GE

    Perfectly sensible, grown up centrism

    https://youtu.be/8DnQcO17uYY?si=d4a7sHr4mDT7Q3Vm
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 187

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Also constitutionally correct though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,706

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    The numbers didn’t work, either.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 187
    isam said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Bad Al warming up for trying to overturn the Brexit vote by plotting to get Brown to squat in No10 after losing a GE

    Perfectly sensible, grown up centrism

    https://youtu.be/8DnQcO17uYY?si=d4a7sHr4mDT7Q3Vm
    The 'squatting' in No.10 thing was silly. What's he supposed to do if there is no other government to take over?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,444
    Just as we’ve now - belatedly - admitted that mass immigration makes us poorer, not richer, so we will soon admit that - in many areas - it leads to higher crime

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,956
    Leon said:

    Just as we’ve now - belatedly - admitted that mass immigration makes us poorer, not richer, so we will soon admit that - in many areas - it leads to higher crime

    Been a banner day for Overton Window enthusiasts, certainly. Not so much "third way" as an outflanking.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,034

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    Presumably the article sets out why it matters. It's not obvious to me either, but I ha en't read the article and it's behind a paywall. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might.
    From this vantage point, the CoE looks like it believes in nothing except identity politics and climate change, but I am only a distant observer.
    I read the article and it merely stated it mattered, without giving much of a reason why.

    The architecture was mentioned, though nobody really is proposing demolishing Churches - them getting repurposed to bars and restaurants keeps the architecture going in a far more productive 21st century use.

    PS great game at Anfield. A couple of goals in as many minutes. :)
    Meanwhile, the UEFA cup final is looking like a real battle of the resistable force meets the movable object.
  • vikvik Posts: 345

    The stupid home Secretary, wet lettuce cooper, has instantly caused a massive crisis in the UK care industry. You can’t just switch off immigration like a tap that shouldn’t be on - how many zillion care homes now close? where do their customers go other than the NHS bed blocking? What now happens to NHS and hospital and treatment waits thanks to this stupid policy decision?

    THERES CONSEQUENCES TO JUST SUDDENLY SWITCHING OFF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT WARNING TO INDUSTRIES.

    Not least the horrendous damage of your actual actions not meeting your policy announcements.

    Care homes pre-dated these visas and they'll survive past them too. Last data I've seen showed shows that 88% of employees in care homes are British anyway.

    Supply and demand may mean that wages need to rise beyond minimum wage to fill vacancies. Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
    You havn’t provided any answers to social care crisis in your pirate response.

    The Boris, Truss and Sunak governments were not nearly stupid enough to do something as stupid as what Labour announced today - switching off immigration whilst there is a need for it. The last government are known as stupid and unelectable for putting out vibes they would switch the gushing immigration off, whilst actually doing the opposite. Labour have so quickly shredded themselves by making the same mistakes, trapping themselves between fantasy and reality.

    To be tough on immigration you first need to get in place mitigation for all immigration you don’t really need. No other way of doing it. Labour have kicked sorting social care crisis into the long grass, just like, for all their bluster, the Conservatives did.

    This bolsters what an awful week it’s been for this Labour government. This little period of getting themselves caught with rhetoric they can’t deliver on, caught in no man’s land between EU and Trump on trade, is defining why they lose the next election.
    Yes, it's completely insane.

    They are not taking any active steps to stop the most visible form of illegal migration, that causes the most anger among voters, which is the boats crossing the channel. Their war on the migration 'gangs' will be as successful as the 'war on drugs' & the boats will continue to arrive & the hotels will keep filling up.

    Instead Labour are stopping migration from the one source, aged care workers, where even a lot of Reform voters might be Ok to have a limited number of migrants.

    I doubt many Reform voters are eager to go and work in aged care. They want to stop the entry of migrant criminals, as a top priority, and then the entry of migrants who take good well-paying jobs, such as tradesmen & factory workers. Instead of prioritising this, Labour instead goes & stops the entry of aged care workers.

    And, no, a Labour government that is cutting Winter Fuel Allowance, won't be putting any more money into aged care. So, the end result will voters who continue being angry about the boats and are now also angry about the deteriorating quality of aged care services.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    Exactly


  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,160
    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1921600580658868710

    President Putin of Russia doesn't want to have a Cease Fire Agreement with Ukraine, but rather wants to meet on Thursday, in Turkey, to negotiate a possible end to the BLOODBATH. Ukraine should agree to this, IMMEDIATELY. At least they will be able to determine whether or not a deal is possible, and if it is not, European leaders, and the U.S., will know where everything stands, and can proceed accordingly! I'm starting to doubt that Ukraine will make a deal with Putin, who's too busy celebrating the Victory of World War ll, which could not have been won (not even close!) without the United States of America. HAVE THE MEETING, NOW!!!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794
    My observation would be that there would be transitional problems for some industries, such as care homes and in the NHS, from an immigration crackdown but it's not critical.

    Pubs and restaurants said the same amount free movement from the EU ending. It was tricky for a couple of years, and then the market adjusted.

    My local pub is now staffed entirely with Britons.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,990
    vik said:

    The stupid home Secretary, wet lettuce cooper, has instantly caused a massive crisis in the UK care industry. You can’t just switch off immigration like a tap that shouldn’t be on - how many zillion care homes now close? where do their customers go other than the NHS bed blocking? What now happens to NHS and hospital and treatment waits thanks to this stupid policy decision?

    THERES CONSEQUENCES TO JUST SUDDENLY SWITCHING OFF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT WARNING TO INDUSTRIES.

    Not least the horrendous damage of your actual actions not meeting your policy announcements.

    Care homes pre-dated these visas and they'll survive past them too. Last data I've seen showed shows that 88% of employees in care homes are British anyway.

    Supply and demand may mean that wages need to rise beyond minimum wage to fill vacancies. Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
    You havn’t provided any answers to social care crisis in your pirate response.

    The Boris, Truss and Sunak governments were not nearly stupid enough to do something as stupid as what Labour announced today - switching off immigration whilst there is a need for it. The last government are known as stupid and unelectable for putting out vibes they would switch the gushing immigration off, whilst actually doing the opposite. Labour have so quickly shredded themselves by making the same mistakes, trapping themselves between fantasy and reality.

    To be tough on immigration you first need to get in place mitigation for all immigration you don’t really need. No other way of doing it. Labour have kicked sorting social care crisis into the long grass, just like, for all their bluster, the Conservatives did.

    This bolsters what an awful week it’s been for this Labour government. This little period of getting themselves caught with rhetoric they can’t deliver on, caught in no man’s land between EU and Trump on trade, is defining why they lose the next election.
    Yes, it's completely insane.

    They are not taking any active steps to stop the most visible form of illegal migration, that causes the most anger among voters, which is the boats crossing the channel. Their war on the migration 'gangs' will be as successful as the 'war on drugs' & the boats will continue to arrive & the hotels will keep filling up.

    Instead Labour are stopping migration from the one source, aged care workers, where even a lot of Reform voters might be Ok to have a limited number of migrants.

    I doubt many Reform voters are eager to go and work in aged care. They want to stop the entry of migrant criminals, as a top priority, and then the entry of migrants who take good well-paying jobs, such as tradesmen & factory workers. Instead of prioritising this, Labour instead goes & stops the entry of aged care workers.

    And, no, a Labour government that is cutting Winter Fuel Allowance, won't be putting any more money into aged care. So, the end result will voters who continue being angry about the boats and are now also angry about the deteriorating quality of aged care services.
    So exactly how do you stop boats coming across the channel - because I'm 100% sure any proposal you have will be utterly unworkable...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,444
    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794
    On the channel, it would probably be a political benefit if Labour ended the crossings by getting French permission to turnback and return all boats, in return for taking an agreed quota (not a silly one) direct from the Pas de Calais and deploying Royal Navy assets to the Med and extra border security to help France.

    Even if that led to overall figures going up a bit under the radar ending the farce of the boats in the Channel would probably give them credit.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,095
    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,385

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,448
    edited May 11
    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    I think the offending posts were deleted. They were not mild.

    (I don't really know if that level of anger is out of character. If so, hope they are ok.)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    Presumably the article sets out why it matters. It's not obvious to me either, but I ha en't read the article and it's behind a paywall. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might.
    From this vantage point, the CoE looks like it believes in nothing except identity politics and climate change, but I am only a distant observer.
    I read the article and it merely stated it mattered, without giving much of a reason why.

    The architecture was mentioned, though nobody really is proposing demolishing Churches - them getting repurposed to bars and restaurants keeps the architecture going in a far more productive 21st century use.

    PS great game at Anfield. A couple of goals in as many minutes. :)
    Meanwhile, the UEFA cup final is looking like a real battle of the resistable force meets the movable object.
    Makes a complete mockery that a team could end the season on less than 40 points but end up in the Champions League rather than getting relegated.

    Giving the reigning Champions League champions the right to defend their title was sensible, but giving the Europa League champions tickets to the Champions League is just silly.

    Whoever wins the Europa League should get the right to defend their title in the Europa League next season, no more than that.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,990
    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    the f word and the c word in a 5 word sentence. It wasn't exactly a @malcolmg level of inventive insult..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037
    Leon said:

    Just as we’ve now - belatedly - admitted that mass immigration makes us poorer, not richer, so we will soon admit that - in many areas - it leads to higher crime

    A questionable assertion given the available data.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,990

    On the channel, it would probably be a political benefit if Labour ended the crossings by getting French permission to turnback and return all boats, in return for taking an agreed quota (not a silly one) direct from the Pas de Calais and deploying Royal Navy assets to the Med and extra border security to help France.

    Even if that led to overall figures going up a bit under the radar ending the farce of the boats in the Channel would probably give them credit.

    Except for the Pas de Calais bit as that would be a draw to head towards there I think that would be the best plan. I don't know how practical it is.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,557

    On the channel, it would probably be a political benefit if Labour ended the crossings by getting French permission to turnback and return all boats, in return for taking an agreed quota (not a silly one) direct from the Pas de Calais and deploying Royal Navy assets to the Med and extra border security to help France.

    Even if that led to overall figures going up a bit under the radar ending the farce of the boats in the Channel would probably give them credit.

    You and I probably come at this from different directions, but that sounds fair enough.

    I don't think anyone can approve of the small boats; it puts money in evil pockets, it's horribly dangerous for desperate people, and so on. The question has always been how to reduce their numbers and how low the asylum numbers should be pushed.

    For the last few years, the answer to the second question has seemed to be "ideally to zero" and the first, "without co-operating with France etc." The first isn't really on, and the second doesn't really work. Hence the shouting as an alternative to anything effective.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    edited May 11
    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Somewhat exaggerated, the Church of England still has 700,000 attending its services every Sunday and more for weddings, funerals, baptisms, Easter and Christmas. In rural areas like mine we no longer have a post office or shop and even have to go to the next village for a pub or primary school but we still have a church holding monthly servies.

    The Church of England is also still one of the wealthiest landowners in England, landlord of much prime central London real estate too and has £8 billion in assets and stocks so has more than enough to keep going regardless of congregation size. Though it could put more funds into Parishes and keep its churches open rather than diocesan and Lambeth Palace admin and church plants which normally don't have great success
  • isamisam Posts: 41,555

    isam said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Bad Al warming up for trying to overturn the Brexit vote by plotting to get Brown to squat in No10 after losing a GE

    Perfectly sensible, grown up centrism

    https://youtu.be/8DnQcO17uYY?si=d4a7sHr4mDT7Q3Vm
    The 'squatting' in No.10 thing was silly. What's he supposed to do if there is no other government to take over?
    Didn’t he ‘offer‘ to stay until October?!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,482
    Really off-topic:

    There was a badly-potholed road near Royston on today's bike ride, that managed to damage *both* tyres on my bike. Not flats (which should have been easy to deal with), but bulges, or actual damage to the tyres' structure. I stopped, deflated both tyres, and pumped them up again to see if they could automagically reseat better, but no change. So I slowly (and bumpily) rode home for a couple of hours. All spokes seem fine, and the actual wheel rims do not seem to be out of true.

    After 1,800km with no punctures on this bike, it is a bit of a **** to have damage on both tyres, perhaps on the same pothole. And I may have a race next Sunday.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,099

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Oh blimey! All of a sudden macho man Sir Keir agrees with me that mass immigration undercuts the wages of British workers.

    Whatever brought that on?

    The Tories lost control of our borders and let net migration soar to record levels, undercutting hardworking Brits.

    I won't stand for it.

    I promised to restore control and cut migration, and I'm delivering with tough new measures.

    British workers – I’ve got your back.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1921454888766112166?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I am trying to imagine the howls of apoplexy that would have come from the left if a Tory PM or Farage had tweeted something like that.

    I find Tough Sir Keir’s Twitter persona exceptionally cringe, but it does show how much they have realised this issue is hurting them. They might however be better served at quietly getting on with it rather than trying to get into a measuring contest as to who can sound tougher on immigration (because Farage will always, always win that one).
    Oh yes, the beauty of the centrist's silence almost calms the anxiety brought on by Sir Keir's bad acting

    I would have thought Reform voters would be more put off by the blatant hypocrisy from the nations leading Human Rights lawyer, who signed letters preventing criminals who went on to commit murder being deported recently, as well as campaigning for a second referendum and promising to fight for FOM
    Continued FOM would have led, and did lead, to less immigration than Brexit and the Boris wave.....as most of the people who came here did so to work for a few years and returned to their home countries, whereas the immigration we have outside Europe is more permanent.....just saying.....
    There is no way of knowing that to be true. FOM meant we had no control whatsoever over who could come from EU countries. If a million had turned up in a year, then a million would be here. Obviously the Boris wave was a disaster, but a government that is actually tough on immigration can lower it to zero if it wanted, and that wasn't possible while we were in the EU - if it had been, we wouldn't have had a referendum, let alone voted to leave
    You're a betting man, we had a long sample of what FOM would bring in each year and trends we could extrapolate from. None of that pointed to the kind of migration we have seen post Brexit.
    Yes, I agree it is highly improbable, but the fact that Boris messed up immigration post Brexit doesn't mean voting for Leave in order to limit immigration should be a regret. Starmer's phoney rhetoric on immigration grates as he has never said a word against it before, and fought tooth and nail to continue FOM. I don't think he was doing that because he feared higher immigration without it!

    It will be interesting to see what the post Boris-wave migration figures are. There's no reason why they should only come down gradually, they should drop like a stone really, to way lower than EU FOM levels

    Starmer is probably for sensible migration. He wasn't bothered by the low hundreds of thousands but can see the problem with high hundreds of thousands. There is nothing hypocritical about that.
    His problem there will be that the voters he is trying to con with his phoney concern don't think the low hundreds of thousands is sensible
    I doubt it is phoney. I hold a similar view and it is genuine, the numbers are too high recently especially without house building.

    And the people who thought the low hundreds of thousands were a problem are the very same people who put someone in charge who brought in close to a million instead, just perhaps their judgment isn't all that good......
    That's a nice attempt a smart arse pay off, but I think you should know better than that.

    Basically voting for Boris was the only way anyone who wanted what they thought in 2016 would be the straightforward process of voting Leave being recognised. It's to the shame of people like Starmer that they tried so hard to ignore the democratic vote they promised to implement.

    The only reason people like Starmer even have power right now because Boris and the ERG wing of the Tories took Leave voters for fools.
    I would put it the other way round. The leave voters were fools for believing Boris and the ERG.
    At the 2019 GE, Leave voters had a choice between voting Tory, & having their Leave vote implemented, or voting for anyone else and tossing a coin about the referendum result being overturned. So it wasn't a case of being made fools of; Boris did implement the Leave vote, and that's why we voted for him. He didn't do as expected on immigration, but at least we have the ability to do something about it now.
    The basic failure in comprehension it takes not to distinguish between the returning the right of the UK Government to set its own immigration policy, and the implementation of a low immigration policy, and why the former is a necessary precursor for, but not a guarantee of, the latter, is quite extraordinary. If I believed that people really didn't understand it (as opposed to irritatingly debating in bad faith), I'd believe I was talking to people who couldn't tie their shoelaces.
    Having a lever is utterly worthless if it's apparent the UK Government was never going to use it. And the people who actually wanted Singapore on Thames (the ERG) or just supported Brexit for their own careers (Boris, then eventually Truss and now Jenrick) were never going to use it. The reason the Tories are totally f**ked everyone eventually realised they were a bunch of bullshitting, liars.
    But it is now (or will be now) being used. A Government that caused the issue has been chucked out. A Government that gave every impression of failing to get to grips with it has had an electoral shock, and is now playing catch up. That's democracy in action.
    Considering where most of the Boriswave came from, we don't need to end FOM to stop them from coming in.
    Correct, but nevertheless, there was a hugely significant proportion of immigration that could not be controlled, and that the UK Government was not accountable for. It can now all can be controlled and the UK Government are accountable for it all.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037
    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    That's 2.4 on betfair - Trump to be impeached before the 28 election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    edited May 11

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    Presumably the article sets out why it matters. It's not obvious to me either, but I ha en't read the article and it's behind a paywall. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might.
    From this vantage point, the CoE looks like it believes in nothing except identity politics and climate change, but I am only a distant observer.
    I read the article and it merely stated it mattered, without giving much of a reason why.

    The architecture was mentioned, though nobody really is proposing demolishing Churches - them getting repurposed to bars and restaurants keeps the architecture going in a far more productive 21st century use.

    PS great game at Anfield. A couple of goals in as many minutes. :)
    The restaurant and pub trade isn't doing much better

    'Restaurant closures are already running at their highest level in over a decade, with a total of 1,409 UK restaurant businesses entering insolvency in 2023/24 (year ending 30 September 2024), up from 1,180 in 2022/23.'
    https://www.thecaterer.com/news/restaurant-closures-price-bailey-prediction

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/dec/30/number-of-pubs-in-england-and-wales-falls-below-39000-for-first-time
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,827
    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    And the years after that up on a huge number of charges.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,099
    edited May 11
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    Presumably the article sets out why it matters. It's not obvious to me either, but I ha en't read the article and it's behind a paywall. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might.
    From this vantage point, the CoE looks like it believes in nothing except identity politics and climate change, but I am only a distant observer.
    Church attendance in the UK seems to have turned a corner and be increasing. Anecdotally, I am hearing about particularly high attendences at Easter services - and it can't all have been down to Sir Zeitgeist's inspiring Easter Tweet.

    Just not the COE!

    https://youtu.be/N8p3qdr0-ds?si=sLkYBPQad49Vn-6D

    https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/11-april/news/uk/dramatic-growth-in-young-people-attending-church-bible-society-research-finds

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,706
    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    If a church gets repurposed as a bar, or a restaurant or housing or even a mosque then so what. At least it’s bringing a barely used building back into use. I cannot find it in me to care at all either way.
    Church buildings cannot be converted into mosques, most have legal clauses prohibiting the church from being used for any kind of non-Christian worship and correctly so unless you want more fuel for the Tommy Robinson and Reform fire
    https://www.gbnews.com/news/church-of-england-conversion-grade-ii-listed-building-mosque
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,557

    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    And the years after that up on a huge number of charges.
    So either Team Donald have to make sure that the Dems don't win big in 2026, or Trump has do a John Stonehouse before the orange man can be put in an orange jumpsuit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    edited May 11

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Golly, I’m old enough to remember a rightwing susurration of pleasure that the volk were returning to churches. Since it was only two weeks ago I don’t even have to be that old.
    Indeed

    'Churches enjoyed bumper attendances over Easter, members of the clergy have said.

    Some parishes reported congregations up by half compared to recent years, buoyed by large numbers of young people turning to religion.

    A recent survey by the Bible Society suggested the share of the population attending a service once a month had risen from eight per cent in 2018 to 12 percent last year. But the figures for those aged between 18 and 24 have quadrupled over the same period, to 16 per cent.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
    Leon said:

    Just as we’ve now - belatedly - admitted that mass immigration makes us poorer, not richer, so we will soon admit that - in many areas - it leads to higher crime

    That’s not true. According to the mayor of London’s office it’s our strength and made Britain great. I guess Reform voters just aren’t grateful. 😉
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    The offending post/posts have been deleted. Far from mild.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,827

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Fifteen years since that Cameron/Clegg rose garden love-in.

    Fifteen years since the LibDems decreed no discussion on an EU referendum. That delay allowed the issue to come to the surface - and eventually delivered us Brexit.

    Take a bow, Nick Clegg. I wonder where his now?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    I think the offending posts were deleted. They were not mild.

    (I don't really know if that level of anger is out of character. If so, hope they are ok.)
    I’m sure Kamski is fine. Will just find someone else or somewhere to rant to.

    I think those posts are typical of his posting style.

    I had no issue with him calling me a spacker either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,827

    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    And the years after that up on a huge number of charges.
    So either Team Donald have to make sure that the Dems don't win big in 2026, or Trump has do a John Stonehouse before the orange man can be put in an orange jumpsuit.
    Or a convenient bout of the Ernest Saunders...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,555

    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.

    Do you ever get over the cricket at Chelmsford anymore?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Fifteen years since that Cameron/Clegg rose garden love-in.

    Fifteen years since the LibDems decreed no discussion on an EU referendum. That delay allowed the issue to come to the surface - and eventually delivered us Brexit.

    Take a bow, Nick Clegg. I wonder where his now?
    Not to forget that fifteen years and six days ago the Lib Dems were campaigning on a manifesto commitment that we should be having an in/out EU referendum.

    A commitment of his that Nick Clegg was horrified to see David Cameron embrace.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,462

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,213
    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    Ironically, I think he might have used it on one of the posters he learned it from ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794

    On the channel, it would probably be a political benefit if Labour ended the crossings by getting French permission to turnback and return all boats, in return for taking an agreed quota (not a silly one) direct from the Pas de Calais and deploying Royal Navy assets to the Med and extra border security to help France.

    Even if that led to overall figures going up a bit under the radar ending the farce of the boats in the Channel would probably give them credit.

    You and I probably come at this from different directions, but that sounds fair enough.

    I don't think anyone can approve of the small boats; it puts money in evil pockets, it's horribly dangerous for desperate people, and so on. The question has always been how to reduce their numbers and how low the asylum numbers should be pushed.

    For the last few years, the answer to the second question has seemed to be "ideally to zero" and the first, "without co-operating with France etc." The first isn't really on, and the second doesn't really work. Hence the shouting as an alternative to anything effective.
    I'm not saying it's my favoured solution (it isn't) but I could see it as a centre-left one that his party could rally behind.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,205

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1921600580658868710

    President Putin of Russia doesn't want to have a Cease Fire Agreement with Ukraine, but rather wants to meet on Thursday, in Turkey, to negotiate a possible end to the BLOODBATH. Ukraine should agree to this, IMMEDIATELY. At least they will be able to determine whether or not a deal is possible, and if it is not, European leaders, and the U.S., will know where everything stands, and can proceed accordingly! I'm starting to doubt that Ukraine will make a deal with Putin, who's too busy celebrating the Victory of World War ll, which could not have been won (not even close!) without the United States of America. HAVE THE MEETING, NOW!!!

    He’s such an arse. WW2 in Europe wouldn’t even have started if Stalin hadn’t colluded with Hitler to invade Poland as pals and allies.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    Ironically, I think he might have used it on one of the posters he learned it from ?
    So who do you think he learned the ‘c’ word from here and the ‘f’ word from ?

    Name names
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,956
    edited May 11
    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,509
    vik said:

    The stupid home Secretary, wet lettuce cooper, has instantly caused a massive crisis in the UK care industry. You can’t just switch off immigration like a tap that shouldn’t be on - how many zillion care homes now close? where do their customers go other than the NHS bed blocking? What now happens to NHS and hospital and treatment waits thanks to this stupid policy decision?

    THERES CONSEQUENCES TO JUST SUDDENLY SWITCHING OFF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT WARNING TO INDUSTRIES.

    Not least the horrendous damage of your actual actions not meeting your policy announcements.

    Care homes pre-dated these visas and they'll survive past them too. Last data I've seen showed shows that 88% of employees in care homes are British anyway.

    Supply and demand may mean that wages need to rise beyond minimum wage to fill vacancies. Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
    You havn’t provided any answers to social care crisis in your pirate response.

    The Boris, Truss and Sunak governments were not nearly stupid enough to do something as stupid as what Labour announced today - switching off immigration whilst there is a need for it. The last government are known as stupid and unelectable for putting out vibes they would switch the gushing immigration off, whilst actually doing the opposite. Labour have so quickly shredded themselves by making the same mistakes, trapping themselves between fantasy and reality.

    To be tough on immigration you first need to get in place mitigation for all immigration you don’t really need. No other way of doing it. Labour have kicked sorting social care crisis into the long grass, just like, for all their bluster, the Conservatives did.

    This bolsters what an awful week it’s been for this Labour government. This little period of getting themselves caught with rhetoric they can’t deliver on, caught in no man’s land between EU and Trump on trade, is defining why they lose the next election.
    Yes, it's completely insane.

    They are not taking any active steps to stop the most visible form of illegal migration, that causes the most anger among voters, which is the boats crossing the channel. Their war on the migration 'gangs' will be as successful as the 'war on drugs' & the boats will continue to arrive & the hotels will keep filling up.

    Instead Labour are stopping migration from the one source, aged care workers, where even a lot of Reform voters might be Ok to have a limited number of migrants.

    I doubt many Reform voters are eager to go and work in aged care. They want to stop the entry of migrant criminals, as a top priority, and then the entry of migrants who take good well-paying jobs, such as tradesmen & factory workers. Instead of prioritising this, Labour instead goes & stops the entry of aged care workers.

    And, no, a Labour government that is cutting Winter Fuel Allowance, won't be putting any more money into aged care. So, the end result will voters who continue being angry about the boats and are now also angry about the deteriorating quality of aged care services.
    See the numbers I posted from the gov (above). Visas for recruited abroad carers have collapsed under scrutiny.

    - The care home workforce is 750k
    - It’s 88% U.K. origin.
    - So 90,000 of immigrant origin.
    - at one point, the number of visas for carers was 6 figures. Per year.
    - Last year, one company arranged for 1200 visas. But employs 20. The BBC found multiple allegations against them of selling non-existent jobs.

    I strongly suspect that the government found that very few of the people getting visas to work in care homes were ending up working in care homes.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,198
    carnforth said:

    pm215 said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Why does it matter?

    If the Church dies then its legacy buildings can be repurposed to a modern use of the pre-existing architecture. EG you get former Church buildings that now operate as bars or restaurants that tend to get far more patrons than they ever did as a Church.
    If a church gets repurposed as a bar, or a restaurant or housing or even a mosque then so what. At least it’s bringing a barely used building back into use. I cannot find it in me to care at all either way.
    I suspect a lot of them won't be repurposed, though -- churches as buildings are typically not very well suited for other uses, and the maintenance, restoration and conservation bills are enormous.

    (I have also seen the argument that medieval churches are not very well suited for CofE worship either -- http://norfolkchurches.co.uk/translation/translation.htm (and the bit about Cawston and Salle that it links to) suggests that the Reformation took out both the need for such large structures and also the funding model that built and maintained them.)
    https://secretldn.com/mercato-mayfair-italian-food-hall/

    Is an interesting use of an old church. In medieval times, churches and cathedrals got used for a lot more than just prayer. Markets, social events etc….
    It's the rural church buildings which will be the problem, I would think. I am a member of the Churches Conservation Trust. But their churches do feel soulless.
    The problem needs more than one size fits all treatment. Eg:

    Large numbers of churches, many of them rural, are viable financially and are wanted and appreciated by a significant sector of the community. Many, especially in towns and cities have significant following. A national support base of round about a million is not great, but not extinction level either.

    Quite a number of churches are of little or no aesthetic significance, so the world will get on without them if necessary. Lots are unlisted.

    But Grade 1/Grade 2* buildings are, taken together, as central a part of the dispersed landscape as Oxford, Cambridge, York, Stamford or Bath - where townscape is found in concentrated form. These need special treatment for the same reasons, and it isn't cheap.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,213
    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    What a surprise, Pam Bondi and Pete Hegseth have concluded that it would not violate the emoluments clause for Trump to accept a “flying palace” 747-8 jumbo jet from Qatar.
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1921554860215820399
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,462
    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,213
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Has @kamski been banned for a fairly mild insult?

    Seems a bit harsh. Speaking as someone who makes mild insults. But it might be something else and I’m not a moderator

    Ironically, I think he might have used it on one of the posters he learned it from ?
    So who do you think he learned the ‘c’ word from here and the ‘f’ word from ?

    Name names
    I was replying to Leon, who like me seems to have missed that post.
    We were talking about another epithet.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,160
    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,956
    edited May 11
    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    I don't think your positively Trumpian threat to change the electoral system without a referendum is good. That's my position. And I don't view any of the three Cameron referendums to have been a mistake. And I would feel that way even if I had not won all three of them.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,956

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    No EU observer? Naughty boys. Might agree to things they're not allowed to.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,501

    Taz said:

    The Lib Dem’s have launched ‘Reform watch’ to monitor Reform in local govt.

    The NOTA party is really getting under the skin of the mainstream parties.

    Of course this reeks of making a hostage to fortune.

    https://x.com/thisliberalage/status/1921465465215320219?s=61

    Sounds like perfectly normal practice to me; the kind of things parties have done to each other forever.

    (Outside the far southwest, are there many Lib-Ref battlegrounds?)

    And the challenge for Reform is simple. Up until now, they have prospered by being NOTA. What happens in the parts of the country where they are now AOTA? (Not so much the effect on voters, as the effect on Reform activists. Consider what happened to Lib Dem morale during the coalition years.)
    To be fair, the Conservatives set up a group to monitor Lib Dem run Councils - especially the ones they once controlled and then lost.

    There's nothing wrong, by the way, with holding any Council and any Party to account for decisions and actions. Reform aren't an exception.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,966

    vik said:

    The stupid home Secretary, wet lettuce cooper, has instantly caused a massive crisis in the UK care industry. You can’t just switch off immigration like a tap that shouldn’t be on - how many zillion care homes now close? where do their customers go other than the NHS bed blocking? What now happens to NHS and hospital and treatment waits thanks to this stupid policy decision?

    THERES CONSEQUENCES TO JUST SUDDENLY SWITCHING OFF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT WARNING TO INDUSTRIES.

    Not least the horrendous damage of your actual actions not meeting your policy announcements.

    Care homes pre-dated these visas and they'll survive past them too. Last data I've seen showed shows that 88% of employees in care homes are British anyway.

    Supply and demand may mean that wages need to rise beyond minimum wage to fill vacancies. Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
    You havn’t provided any answers to social care crisis in your pirate response.

    The Boris, Truss and Sunak governments were not nearly stupid enough to do something as stupid as what Labour announced today - switching off immigration whilst there is a need for it. The last government are known as stupid and unelectable for putting out vibes they would switch the gushing immigration off, whilst actually doing the opposite. Labour have so quickly shredded themselves by making the same mistakes, trapping themselves between fantasy and reality.

    To be tough on immigration you first need to get in place mitigation for all immigration you don’t really need. No other way of doing it. Labour have kicked sorting social care crisis into the long grass, just like, for all their bluster, the Conservatives did.

    This bolsters what an awful week it’s been for this Labour government. This little period of getting themselves caught with rhetoric they can’t deliver on, caught in no man’s land between EU and Trump on trade, is defining why they lose the next election.
    Yes, it's completely insane.

    They are not taking any active steps to stop the most visible form of illegal migration, that causes the most anger among voters, which is the boats crossing the channel. Their war on the migration 'gangs' will be as successful as the 'war on drugs' & the boats will continue to arrive & the hotels will keep filling up.

    Instead Labour are stopping migration from the one source, aged care workers, where even a lot of Reform voters might be Ok to have a limited number of migrants.

    I doubt many Reform voters are eager to go and work in aged care. They want to stop the entry of migrant criminals, as a top priority, and then the entry of migrants who take good well-paying jobs, such as tradesmen & factory workers. Instead of prioritising this, Labour instead goes & stops the entry of aged care workers.

    And, no, a Labour government that is cutting Winter Fuel Allowance, won't be putting any more money into aged care. So, the end result will voters who continue being angry about the boats and are now also angry about the deteriorating quality of aged care services.
    See the numbers I posted from the gov (above). Visas for recruited abroad carers have collapsed under scrutiny.

    - The care home workforce is 750k
    - It’s 88% U.K. origin.
    - So 90,000 of immigrant origin.
    - at one point, the number of visas for carers was 6 figures. Per year.
    - Last year, one company arranged for 1200 visas. But employs 20. The BBC found multiple allegations against them of selling non-existent jobs.

    I strongly suspect that the government found that very few of the people getting visas to work in care homes were ending up working in care homes.
    Very strange that Yvette Cooper isn't saying anything like that, if that's the reason.

    But is instead talking about improving carers' pay to make the jobs more attractive to UK workers. I wonder whether there is any kind of plan to fund better pay.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,198
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Golly, I’m old enough to remember a rightwing susurration of pleasure that the volk were returning to churches. Since it was only two weeks ago I don’t even have to be that old.
    Indeed

    'Churches enjoyed bumper attendances over Easter, members of the clergy have said.

    Some parishes reported congregations up by half compared to recent years, buoyed by large numbers of young people turning to religion.

    A recent survey by the Bible Society suggested the share of the population attending a service once a month had risen from eight per cent in 2018 to 12 percent last year. But the figures for those aged between 18 and 24 have quadrupled over the same period, to 16 per cent.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
    I would be happy if that were true but I doubt it very much. The recent Economist article on growing Catholic youth attendance only got as far as discussing Brompton Oratory and Farm Street, Mayfair. Maybe Economist journos are unaware that this may not be typical of how Catholicism is getting on in Cleckheaton, Hull or Goole.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,237
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Golly, I’m old enough to remember a rightwing susurration of pleasure that the volk were returning to churches. Since it was only two weeks ago I don’t even have to be that old.
    Indeed

    'Churches enjoyed bumper attendances over Easter, members of the clergy have said.

    Some parishes reported congregations up by half compared to recent years, buoyed by large numbers of young people turning to religion.

    A recent survey by the Bible Society suggested the share of the population attending a service once a month had risen from eight per cent in 2018 to 12 percent last year. But the figures for those aged between 18 and 24 have quadrupled over the same period, to 16 per cent.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
    So still a massive minority then?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 769

    Taz said:

    The Lib Dem’s have launched ‘Reform watch’ to monitor Reform in local govt.

    The NOTA party is really getting under the skin of the mainstream parties.

    Of course this reeks of making a hostage to fortune.

    https://x.com/thisliberalage/status/1921465465215320219?s=61

    Sounds like perfectly normal practice to me; the kind of things parties have done to each other forever.

    (Outside the far southwest, are there many Lib-Ref battlegrounds?)

    And the challenge for Reform is simple. Up until now, they have prospered by being NOTA. What happens in the parts of the country where they are now AOTA? (Not so much the effect on voters, as the effect on Reform activists. Consider what happened to Lib Dem morale during the coalition years.)
    They'll probably do an SNP and blame Westminster for any problems, while taking no responsibility whatsoever.
    It's what I would be disinterestedly recommend as a strategy, sure. It's the obvious mantra to get to sleep at night. But there is other stuff- where to spend the limited money, where to put the good things and the bad things- where that won't work.

    UKIP ran Thanet council for less than a year before internal splits cost them their majority.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-34517022
    1 year as a baseline. Noted for betting strategy.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,501

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Fifteen years since that Cameron/Clegg rose garden love-in.

    Fifteen years since the LibDems decreed no discussion on an EU referendum. That delay allowed the issue to come to the surface - and eventually delivered us Brexit.

    Take a bow, Nick Clegg. I wonder where his now?
    Not to forget that fifteen years and six days ago the Lib Dems were campaigning on a manifesto commitment that we should be having an in/out EU referendum.

    A commitment of his that Nick Clegg was horrified to see David Cameron embrace.
    Some selective rewriting of history at work.

    Cameron's "offer" was a referendum on the terms of our membership of the EU which he hoped and believed he would amend (around QMV and more "opt outs") in post-election discussions with the EU. It was also predicated on the Conservatives winning a majority which didn't look likely and only became likely once voters were scared into voting Tory by the concept of a Labour minority Government led by Ed Miliband dependent on SNP support (which equated to facilitating Scottish independence).

    I don't think Cameron expected to win a majority but he did. I think he then expected the other EU leaders to accede to his demands on a redefined EU membership for the UK - that didn't happen. He backed himself into a corner where his only option was an In/Out referendum.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794
    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    No EU observer? Naughty boys. Might agree to things they're not allowed to.
    I presume it's European defence and security.

    The nations that have punch.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,741

    vik said:

    The stupid home Secretary, wet lettuce cooper, has instantly caused a massive crisis in the UK care industry. You can’t just switch off immigration like a tap that shouldn’t be on - how many zillion care homes now close? where do their customers go other than the NHS bed blocking? What now happens to NHS and hospital and treatment waits thanks to this stupid policy decision?

    THERES CONSEQUENCES TO JUST SUDDENLY SWITCHING OFF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT WARNING TO INDUSTRIES.

    Not least the horrendous damage of your actual actions not meeting your policy announcements.

    Care homes pre-dated these visas and they'll survive past them too. Last data I've seen showed shows that 88% of employees in care homes are British anyway.

    Supply and demand may mean that wages need to rise beyond minimum wage to fill vacancies. Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
    You havn’t provided any answers to social care crisis in your pirate response.

    The Boris, Truss and Sunak governments were not nearly stupid enough to do something as stupid as what Labour announced today - switching off immigration whilst there is a need for it. The last government are known as stupid and unelectable for putting out vibes they would switch the gushing immigration off, whilst actually doing the opposite. Labour have so quickly shredded themselves by making the same mistakes, trapping themselves between fantasy and reality.

    To be tough on immigration you first need to get in place mitigation for all immigration you don’t really need. No other way of doing it. Labour have kicked sorting social care crisis into the long grass, just like, for all their bluster, the Conservatives did.

    This bolsters what an awful week it’s been for this Labour government. This little period of getting themselves caught with rhetoric they can’t deliver on, caught in no man’s land between EU and Trump on trade, is defining why they lose the next election.
    Yes, it's completely insane.

    They are not taking any active steps to stop the most visible form of illegal migration, that causes the most anger among voters, which is the boats crossing the channel. Their war on the migration 'gangs' will be as successful as the 'war on drugs' & the boats will continue to arrive & the hotels will keep filling up.

    Instead Labour are stopping migration from the one source, aged care workers, where even a lot of Reform voters might be Ok to have a limited number of migrants.

    I doubt many Reform voters are eager to go and work in aged care. They want to stop the entry of migrant criminals, as a top priority, and then the entry of migrants who take good well-paying jobs, such as tradesmen & factory workers. Instead of prioritising this, Labour instead goes & stops the entry of aged care workers.

    And, no, a Labour government that is cutting Winter Fuel Allowance, won't be putting any more money into aged care. So, the end result will voters who continue being angry about the boats and are now also angry about the deteriorating quality of aged care services.
    See the numbers I posted from the gov (above). Visas for recruited abroad carers have collapsed under scrutiny.

    - The care home workforce is 750k
    - It’s 88% U.K. origin.
    - So 90,000 of immigrant origin.
    - at one point, the number of visas for carers was 6 figures. Per year.
    - Last year, one company arranged for 1200 visas. But employs 20. The BBC found multiple allegations against them of selling non-existent jobs.

    I strongly suspect that the government found that very few of the people getting visas to work in care homes were ending up working in care homes.
    While this is 90% accurate, I believe that the carer visas includes people who do home visits and live in care, as well as working for care homes. In total, 1.6 million people work in the adult social care sector in England.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9615/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    edited May 11
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Golly, I’m old enough to remember a rightwing susurration of pleasure that the volk were returning to churches. Since it was only two weeks ago I don’t even have to be that old.
    Indeed

    'Churches enjoyed bumper attendances over Easter, members of the clergy have said.

    Some parishes reported congregations up by half compared to recent years, buoyed by large numbers of young people turning to religion.

    A recent survey by the Bible Society suggested the share of the population attending a service once a month had risen from eight per cent in 2018 to 12 percent last year. But the figures for those aged between 18 and 24 have quadrupled over the same period, to 16 per cent.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
    I would be happy if that were true but I doubt it very much. The recent Economist article on growing Catholic youth attendance only got as far as discussing Brompton Oratory and Farm Street, Mayfair. Maybe Economist journos are unaware that this may not be typical of how Catholicism is getting on in Cleckheaton, Hull or Goole.
    I think it is and ironically boosted especially by young immigrants who are not just boosting Muslim numbers in the UK but Christian numbers too.

    'In 2018, just four per cent of 18 to 24-year-olds said they attended church at least once a month but 16 per cent of them now say they do. The increase has been driven by those from ethnic minority backgrounds.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,205
    edited May 11

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    CatMan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain | Churchgoing, going…gone?

    The Church of England is dying out and selling up
    Even if you don’t go to church, this matters" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/05/08/the-church-of-england-is-dying-out-and-selling-up

    Golly, I’m old enough to remember a rightwing susurration of pleasure that the volk were returning to churches. Since it was only two weeks ago I don’t even have to be that old.
    Indeed

    'Churches enjoyed bumper attendances over Easter, members of the clergy have said.

    Some parishes reported congregations up by half compared to recent years, buoyed by large numbers of young people turning to religion.

    A recent survey by the Bible Society suggested the share of the population attending a service once a month had risen from eight per cent in 2018 to 12 percent last year. But the figures for those aged between 18 and 24 have quadrupled over the same period, to 16 per cent.'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/21/bumper-easter-mass-attendance-church-clergy-claim/
    So still a massive minority then?
    At least as big a percentage as those who go to a football league match regularly
    https://www.statista.com/forecasts/890322/frequency-of-attending-a-football-match-at-a-stadium-in-england
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    What a surprise, Pam Bondi and Pete Hegseth have concluded that it would not violate the emoluments clause for Trump to accept a “flying palace” 747-8 jumbo jet from Qatar.
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1921554860215820399
    There is one sure-as-eggs thing about this 'unpredictable' president. He is going to set a (developed) world record for personal enrichment from political office. You can (as he will) take that to the bank.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    edited May 11
    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    Ironically electoral reform would now be even more in the Tories interests than the LDs on current polls, FPTP only really boosts the Tories when the right is united behind them certainly not now Reform have overtaken them
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,459
    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    Merz may not be charismatic but he leads a bigger economy than any of the other 3
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    What a surprise, Pam Bondi and Pete Hegseth have concluded that it would not violate the emoluments clause for Trump to accept a “flying palace” 747-8 jumbo jet from Qatar.
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1921554860215820399
    There is one sure-as-eggs thing about this 'unpredictable' president. He is going to set a (developed) world record for personal enrichment from political office. You can (as he will) take that to the bank.
    That depends upon if you define Russia as a developed country or not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    A common European defence capability is though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,031
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Qatar are giving Trump a luxury jet for use as Air Force One and then to be transferred to the Trump Presidential library before he steps down. This is not a bribe, honest. Also, Trump has a big new property deal in Qatar.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-poised-accept-palace-sky-gift-trump/story?id=121680511

    If the midterms happen, and the Dems win big, the Mad King is going to spend the last 2 years being impeached continuously
    What a surprise, Pam Bondi and Pete Hegseth have concluded that it would not violate the emoluments clause for Trump to accept a “flying palace” 747-8 jumbo jet from Qatar.
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1921554860215820399
    There is one sure-as-eggs thing about this 'unpredictable' president. He is going to set a (developed) world record for personal enrichment from political office. You can (as he will) take that to the bank.
    That depends upon if you define Russia as a developed country or not.
    I don't.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    Taz said:
    Pay reviews do tend to happen annually, yes.

    Why the heck should any working person accept a lower pay rise than that offered to those who are not working via the triple lock?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037
    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    Duck
    Bradman
    Sutherland
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,785

    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.

    Because the native population have got used to not doing that type of work.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,263
    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    My understanding from podcast interviews with politicians of various stripes is that the LDs were talking to Labour largely as a negotiating tactic to improve their leverage in the talks with the Tories, and that most of the people on the Labour side of those talks were pretty sure that was the case. But Labour didn't have much to gain from actively cutting off negotiations early.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    Duck
    Bradman
    Sutherland
    How can you rate Donald Duck more able than Bradman or Donald Sutherland?

    The greatest ever batsman. An iconic movie star who made Don't Look Now. As opposed to a cartoon duck.

    ????
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,192
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    I think even the Donald who lost his troosers is above Trump in ability.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    Duck
    Bradman
    Sutherland
    How can you rate Donald Duck more able than Bradman or Donald Sutherland?

    The greatest ever batsman. An iconic movie star who made Don't Look Now. As opposed to a cartoon duck.

    ????
    He's kept an iconic career going strong for 90 years and still going strong, entertaining generation after generation.

    But at least I put Bradman and Sutherland ahead of Trump, unlike you. Hang your head in shame.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,501
    The interesting thing about the current political debate is how it is all interconnected.

    The public finances are in a terrible state and the economy's growth is anaemic at best. Yet we have nine million working age adults (apparently) who are economically inactive.

    The simplistic response becomes "get them into work" - well, yes but how? Apart from the long term sick and the students, you have 1.5 million carers, many of whom would like to work but find it very hard to get the kind of work which works alongside their primary caring responsibility.

    An ageing population requires more care and more carers (not just residential or respite but dementia and domestic) but where to get the carers ? If we are struggling to generate economic growth because vacancies aren't being filled, let's fill them but where from? The economically inactive? No, well, what about importing labour?

    Immigration? We can't possibly do that - no one wants more immigration though actually the demand is for fewer immigrants not less immigration per se. People like people like themselves and the cultural issue becomes serious when it becomes perceived (or fact) the place in which you live is no longer a place in which you feel comfortable living.

    That's when you get into the deeper waters of identity, homogenity, uniculturalism and "re-moralising" (whatever that means).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    I think even the Donald who lost his troosers is above Trump in ability.
    Tbf on the 'personal enrichment from political office' front ... an absolute star.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,501
    pm215 said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    My understanding from podcast interviews with politicians of various stripes is that the LDs were talking to Labour largely as a negotiating tactic to improve their leverage in the talks with the Tories, and that most of the people on the Labour side of those talks were pretty sure that was the case. But Labour didn't have much to gain from actively cutting off negotiations early.

    Yes, I think that was the case. You could argue the likes of Vince Cable and Simon Hughes would have felt more comfortable backing a Labour minority Government but there was a philosophical convergence between the Orange Bookers and the "liberal conservative" supporters of Cameron which had been exacerbated by the response to the global financial crisis of 2008.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,794
    Taz said:
    We won't see any improvement in output for all the extra tens of billions the NHS has been bunged, IMHO.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,037

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Cicero said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Gordon Brown resigned as PM fifteen years ago today.

    'Resigned' is an amusing term of phrase, as if he had much choice in the matter.

    Gordon Brown lost a General Election fifteen years and five days ago.
    Well, in that five days he found out the LibDems wouldn't play ball :lol:
    To be fair Brown actually knew that the maths did not work and told the Lib Dems to "get lost"- actually a ruder version- when they called him. For a day or two Clegg was open to trying a deal with Labour, but insisted that since Brown had lost, he should give way to a new Labour leader, hence the Mot de Cambronne from Brown. Meanwhile Cameron had offered a full coalition. We kind of knew it was a trap, but were being told that if we did not have deal by Monday, the markets would collapse and we would get the blame. After the Cleggasm the Lib Dems were incredibly disappointed with the final result, so the next four days were a real rollercoaster, from disappointment to shock to pressure, to the Rose Garden love-in.

    If the next Parliament is NOC, then the Lib Dems will be massively better prepared. This time, electoral and constitutional change will not be optional.
    You were told once by the public on electoral reform. You remember, back when you though referendums were a good idea?


    So despite all that has happened you cling to error? Neither good politics nor a good way to analyse things.
    Not an EU flag in sight:

    image
    Don't say that you love me

    Just tell me that you want me

    TUSK!
    In order of geopolitical importance and charisma:

    1. Tusk
    2. Macron
    3. Starmer
    4. Merz

    Donald Tusk is by some way the most accomplished Donald currently running a country.
    I'd rank the 3 most famous Donalds as follows for ability:

    Tusk
    Duck
    Trump
    Duck
    Bradman
    Sutherland
    How can you rate Donald Duck more able than Bradman or Donald Sutherland?

    The greatest ever batsman. An iconic movie star who made Don't Look Now. As opposed to a cartoon duck.

    ????
    He's kept an iconic career going strong for 90 years and still going strong, entertaining generation after generation.

    But at least I put Bradman and Sutherland ahead of Trump, unlike you. Hang your head in shame.
    I was looking at living Donalds.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,666
    Andy_JS said:

    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.

    Because the native population have got used to not doing that type of work.
    Or have better paid alternative options, and the employers have gotten used to being able to avoid paying a better salary.

    I know people who used to work in care who left to go work in hospitality where they get the same pay but tips as well, for less stressful and less difficult work. Taking more money home.

    Maybe if care homes are struggling to fill vacancies they should offer a better salary than wait staff get, when wait staff get tips too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,706
    isam said:

    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.

    Do you ever get over the cricket at Chelmsford anymore?
    Sadly I’ve only been once since 2019; last year when I was taken in a wheelchair. Younger son is talking about taking me again this September when he’s over in Europe on business.
    Thanks for the kind thought.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,509
    Andy_JS said:

    I have carers, but at home, and have for two-and-a-half years. Carers aren’t just in Care Homes, but it’s obviously as difficult to recruit and to manage the service in the domiciliary sector as in the ‘residential’.
    I’ve had Polish, Nigerian, and Zimbabwean carers as well as British and it’s very clear from discussions with both staff and management that recruiting ‘local’ staff isn’t easy.

    Because the native population have got used to not doing that type of work.
    Yet 88% of the care workforce are of U.K. origin…..
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