Shy Conservatives? – politicalbetting.com

System · April 27

Shy Conservatives? – politicalbetting.com

If you’ve been backing the Liberals/laying the Conservatives in Canada then this revelation might make you very nervous given how this polling question has predicted Brexit and Trump victories.

Read the full story here

Nigelb · April 27

Why is it always conservatives ?

TheScreamingEagles · April 27

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?

Society has portrayed as baby eating monsters.

Remember in the early 2000s I was a Tory living in London, it was grim as lefty friends thought I wanted to kill poor people and have a zero tax rate.

Sometimes it is better to keep your head down.

Nigelb · April 27

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Society has portrayed as baby eating monsters.

Remember in the early 2000s I was a Tory living in London, it was grim as lefty friends thought I wanted to kill poor people and have a zero tax rate.

Sometimes it is better to keep your head down.

I understand that.
The question was why *always* (which I admit is an assumption).

TheScreamingEagles · April 27

Whoever is in charge, insiders say Conservative campaign headquarters (CCHQ) has big problems in putting together a competent ground game. Astonishingly, Rachel Maclean, the Conservative Party’s director of strategy, is on holiday in the Himalayas.

There is also mutiny in the ranks over the handling of the general election betting scandal, with five staff members who have since been charged with offences surviving the brutal restructuring of CCHQ.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/20556c7b-4880-4b32-979d-aabe84349f1a

Leon · April 27

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?

I bet this is a massive issue in Canada as voting Conservative is now seen as pro Trump and anti Canadian and anti patriotic

And yet many of these Canuck voters will be thinking Yeah ok Trump is a menace but this is Canada and Trudeau destroyed the country, screw the liberals

I don’t know what odds you can get on a surprise conservative victory but I agree with @TSE’s threader. It could be VALUE

TheScreamingEagles · April 27

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Society has portrayed as baby eating monsters.

Remember in the early 2000s I was a Tory living in London, it was grim as lefty friends thought I wanted to kill poor people and have a zero tax rate.

Sometimes it is better to keep your head down.
I understand that.
The question was why *always* (which I admit is an assumption).

It's not always the Conservatives.

In 2017 Labour were underestimated.

In France there's been a history of the Front National being overestimated/their principal opponent being underestimated.

Nigelb · April 27

That's pretty weak, not defiant.
Defiant would have been keeping the comedian and ripping the piss out of Trump again.

Amid Trump absence, WH Correspondents’ dinner delivers defiant message: We’re not the ‘enemy of the people’
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/5269768-amid-trump-absence-wh-correspondents-dinner-delivers-defiant-message-were-not-the-enemy-of-the-people/
“We care deeply about accuracy and take seriously the heavy responsibility of being stewards of the public’s trust. What we are not is the opposition,” Daniels said to applause, before appearing to push back on remarks made in the past by President Trump.
“What we are not is the enemy of the people,” Daniels said, without naming the president.

Leon · April 27

Driving towards the Tien Shan mountains on a bright sunny day in late April is like driving towards a wonderfully enticing death

An awfully big adventure, indeed

Roger · April 27

I thought the two questions usually are;

1. Who are you voting for?

2. Who do you think will win?

This looks like a cunning plan for Focaldata to claim credit whatever the result.

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.

This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.

Sean_F · April 27

I do from time to time, find myself wondering if this is like our 1970 election, with a sudden shift back to the government in the polls, that did not quite materialise on polling day. The swingback to Labour was real enough, but the polling overstated it.

Stuartinromford · April 27

Roger said:
I thought the two questions usually are;

1. Who are you voting for?

2. Who do you think will win?

This looks like a cunning plan for Focaldata to claim credit whatever the result.

It is a very mysterious set of statements. If he wants to say PM Pierre Poilievre, he could, but he doesn't. The floor length skirt is rustling but no ankle is being shown.

How far ahead on votes do the Conservatives have to be to have a majority?

DecrepiterJohnL · April 27

Counter-terror police investigate Headingley attack in Leeds
...
A daylight attack which left two women seriously injured in an area popular with students is being investigated as a potential terrorist incident.

Officers from West Yorkshire Police were called to Otley Road, in Headingley, Leeds, at 2.47pm on Saturday to reports of a serious incident involving a man seen with weapons.

Three people were found to have suffered injuries, including two women who were taken to hospital for treatment.

The third, a 38-year-old man, was arrested and taken to hospital with a self-inflicted injury.
https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2025-04-26/man-arrested-after-three-people-injured-in-headingley-attack

IANACopper but it sounds more like a domestic than terrorist incident but what does stand out for politicians looking for the next moral panic is use of a crossbow, also used for the Hunt family murders that were in the news recently.

DavidL · April 27

What Carney fairly urgently needs is some more gratuitous rudeness from Trump.

Trump has been distracted by the fact that his tariff plan is crashing the markets and driving inflation. He has also claiming to be busy agreeing all these deals with people, some of whom deny even talking to him.

As Trump's bile has been directed elsewhere Carney has slipped back in the polls to the point that a majority is starting to look a bit of an ask. It really shouldn't be too hard to wind Trump up again before election day though.

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Counter-terror police investigate Headingley attack in Leeds
...
A daylight attack which left two women seriously injured in an area popular with students is being investigated as a potential terrorist incident.

Officers from West Yorkshire Police were called to Otley Road, in Headingley, Leeds, at 2.47pm on Saturday to reports of a serious incident involving a man seen with weapons.

Three people were found to have suffered injuries, including two women who were taken to hospital for treatment.

The third, a 38-year-old man, was arrested and taken to hospital with a self-inflicted injury.
https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2025-04-26/man-arrested-after-three-people-injured-in-headingley-attack

IANACopper but it sounds more like a domestic than terrorist incident but what does stand out for politicians looking for the next moral panic is use of a crossbow, also used for the Hunt family murders that were in the news recently.

Wasn't that weird case where it also used to kill a bloke who was up on his roof fixing his aerial a few years ago? If I remember correctly the convicted somebody, but not sure they got to the bottom of why.

Leon · April 27

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.

A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

DavidL said:
What Carney fairly urgently needs is some more gratuitous rudeness from Trump.

Trump has been distracted by the fact that his tariff plan is crashing the markets and driving inflation. He has also claiming to be busy agreeing all these deals with people, some of whom deny even talking to him.

As Trump's bile has been directed elsewhere Carney has slipped back in the polls to the point that a majority is starting to look a bit of an ask. It really shouldn't be too hard to wind Trump up again before election day though.

Surely that should be very easy, you just go on Fox News or NewsMax and call his small ~~handed~~ minded etc etc etc. Perhaps follow it up with some tweets.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 27

Major Tory donor defects to Reform with £1m gift
...
Bassim Haidar, who gave the Tories more than £700,000 during Rishi Sunak’s premiership, resigned his membership earlier this year, saying the party had “lost its way”.

The technology billionaire said he was convinced that Mr Farage could become the next prime minister. He has already given the party more than £200,000 ahead of next week’s local elections, likely to be the biggest single donation to any party during the campaign.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/04/27/major-tory-donor-defects-to-reform-with-1m-donation/ (£££)

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone

Really interesting was Singapore where only the rich can afford cars due to having to buy a very expensive permit ($100k when you factor in the car tarfiff), so they aren't exactly price sensitive to the actual car* being $1-2k different.

For new cars I saw, hardly any Tesla, only Western cars I saw were high end Mercs / Porsches. The rest it was Chinese cars (things like the Avatr look very cool) and Kia's.

DavidL · April 27

Talking of terrorism there has been another multiple death by car incident in Vancouver: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c2d48erzg7lt

I suspect that this sort of incident probably helps the Conservatives more than the Liberals.

Theuniondivvie · April 27

I’m now getting paid ads on twitter from an account called Deport Foreign Criminals suggesting the only way ‘it’ will stop is by a dictator taking control of Great Britain. I’ve clicked the ‘not interested in this ad’ for this rsole previously but they still keep coming back, and on the Following rather than the For You feed.
It’d be interesting to know who or what is paying for them.

https://x.com/peterstopcrime/status/1916385217629036671?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

ydoethur · April 27

TheScreamingEagles said:
Whoever is in charge, insiders say Conservative campaign headquarters (CCHQ) has big problems in putting together a competent ground game. Astonishingly, Rachel Maclean, the Conservative Party’s director of strategy, is on holiday in the Himalayas.

I don't know. Trying to climb the world's highest and most difficult peaks sounds like quite good practice for managing a Tory campaign right now.

Roger · April 27

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.

OT. If you have a recommendation for a small electric vehicle I'd appreciate the advice. Someone suggested a BMW I3 but they don't make them anymore

rcs1000 · April 27

Roger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
OT. If you have a recommendation for a small electric vehicle I'd appreciate the advice. Someone suggested a BMW I3 but they don't make them anymore

We have the new Fiat 500E, and it's absolutely superb. Easily the best non-Tesla, non-Rivian I've driven. My wife (who hates driving) loves it.

eek · April 27

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Counter-terror police investigate Headingley attack in Leeds
...
A daylight attack which left two women seriously injured in an area popular with students is being investigated as a potential terrorist incident.

Officers from West Yorkshire Police were called to Otley Road, in Headingley, Leeds, at 2.47pm on Saturday to reports of a serious incident involving a man seen with weapons.

Three people were found to have suffered injuries, including two women who were taken to hospital for treatment.

The third, a 38-year-old man, was arrested and taken to hospital with a self-inflicted injury.
https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2025-04-26/man-arrested-after-three-people-injured-in-headingley-attack

IANACopper but it sounds more like a domestic than terrorist incident but what does stand out for politicians looking for the next moral panic is use of a crossbow, also used for the Hunt family murders that were in the news recently.

Otley Road in the middle of a Saturday afternoon with the Otley run in full swing - Police are not going to be treating that as a domestic..

eek · April 27

Roger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
OT. If you have a recommendation for a small electric vehicle I'd appreciate the advice. Someone suggested a BMW I3 but they don't make them anymore

As @Dura_Ace pointed out earlier - you want a Renault 5

boulay · April 27

…

Roger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
OT. If you have a recommendation for a small electric vehicle I'd appreciate the advice. Someone suggested a BMW I3 but they don't make them anymore

Dura recommended the new Renault 5 which I would agree with. I think he said he has ordered one for himself so put his money where his mouth is which is a good sign.

rcs1000 · April 27

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame

Theuniondivvie · April 27

Roger said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
OT. If you have a recommendation for a small electric vehicle I'd appreciate the advice. Someone suggested a BMW I3 but they don't make them anymore

I believe the Renault 5 was the general consensus?

kinabalu · April 27

I'm not that impressed with this French "whale" thing. The polls were mostly good for Trump in the run-up to 5/11. He was the betting fav.

ydoethur · April 27

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone

Was he an Albanian?

Leon · April 27

Everyone is picnicking along the alamedin river as it tumbles out of the Tien Shan. There are kids bareback on horses and smoke rising from barbecues and laughing families outside yurts with babies and beatifiul daughters

And behind them the mighty peaks rise, glittering and lordly and icy white

Exquisite. Only travel can do this

*sob*

HYUFD · April 27

I would not be surprised if pollsters underestimate the Conservatives in Canada and they end up with most votes.

However they won most votes in 2021 and 2019 too and the Liberals still won most seats in a hung parliament

rcs1000 · April 27

kinabalu said:
I'm not that impressed with this French "whale" thing. The polls were mostly good for Trump in the run-up to 5/11. He was the betting fav.

Indeed: the actual result was the most likely scenario under Nate Silver's model.

With that said... Trump clearly outperformed at the national share level, just not by *that* much.

Foxy · April 27

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Major Tory donor defects to Reform with £1m gift
...
Bassim Haidar, who gave the Tories more than £700,000 during Rishi Sunak’s premiership, resigned his membership earlier this year, saying the party had “lost its way”.

The technology billionaire said he was convinced that Mr Farage could become the next prime minister. He has already given the party more than £200,000 ahead of next week’s local elections, likely to be the biggest single donation to any party during the campaign.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/04/27/major-tory-donor-defects-to-reform-with-1m-donation/ (£££)

I have had a flyer from Reform for the Leics local elections. No local issue mentioned, just "Stop the Boats" etc. 2 flyers from each of the Tories and LDs, both focusing on local issues. Usually it is an LD/Conservative contest so interesting to see how Reform get on.

rcs1000 · April 27

HYUFD said:
I would not be surprised if pollsters underestimate the Conservatives in Canada and they end up with most votes.

However they won most votes in 2021 and 2019 too and the Liberals still won most seats in a hung parliament

FWIW, I think they'll struggle to top the poll. I suspect they'll end up close but no cigar. Say, 44-41 or similar.

Dura_Ace · April 27

boulay said:

Dura recommended the new Renault 5 which I would agree with. I think he said he has ordered one for himself so put his money where his mouth is which is a good sign.

No discounts on them though. I paid full whack for mine. Arrives 1st June. I could have had one quicker if I didn't want a specific colour. I've got OZ wheels and H&R lowering springs waiting for it but others must act as their conscience dictates.

Back up to six cars...

HYUFD · April 27

DecrepiterJohnL said:
Major Tory donor defects to Reform with £1m gift
...
Bassim Haidar, who gave the Tories more than £700,000 during Rishi Sunak’s premiership, resigned his membership earlier this year, saying the party had “lost its way”.

The technology billionaire said he was convinced that Mr Farage could become the next prime minister. He has already given the party more than £200,000 ahead of next week’s local elections, likely to be the biggest single donation to any party during the campaign.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/04/27/major-tory-donor-defects-to-reform-with-1m-donation/ (£££)

With a name like that not sure all Reform voters will be delighted with his support

Theuniondivvie · April 27

DavidL said:
Talking of terrorism there has been another multiple death by car incident in Vancouver: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c2d48erzg7lt

I suspect that this sort of incident probably helps the Conservatives more than the Liberals.

I recall 5 minutes after the Manchester Arena bombing folk were saying it would destroy Corbyn’s GE campaign. Presumably if it had such an effect it must have stopped him winning.

HYUFD · April 27

DavidL said:
What Carney fairly urgently needs is some more gratuitous rudeness from Trump.

Trump has been distracted by the fact that his tariff plan is crashing the markets and driving inflation. He has also claiming to be busy agreeing all these deals with people, some of whom deny even talking to him.

As Trump's bile has been directed elsewhere Carney has slipped back in the polls to the point that a majority is starting to look a bit of an ask. It really shouldn't be too hard to wind Trump up again before election day though.

Trump is more focused on China now than Canada

nico67 · April 27

Footage of the alleged perpetrator if correct certainly won’t fit the stereotype some right wingers would like to see .

HYUFD · April 27

TheScreamingEagles said:
Whoever is in charge, insiders say Conservative campaign headquarters (CCHQ) has big problems in putting together a competent ground game. Astonishingly, Rachel Maclean, the Conservative Party’s director of strategy, is on holiday in the Himalayas.

There is also mutiny in the ranks over the handling of the general election betting scandal, with five staff members who have since been charged with offences surviving the brutal restructuring of CCHQ.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/20556c7b-4880-4b32-979d-aabe84349f1a

Local election campaigns tend to be run by local Conservative Associations anyway.

CCHQ are more involved in general election campaigns

TOPPING · April 27

Leon said:
Everyone is picnicking along the alamedin river as it tumbles out of the Tien Shan. There are kids bareback on horses and smoke rising from barbecues and laughing families outside yurts with babies and beatifiul daughters

And behind them the mighty peaks rise, glittering and lordly and icy white

Exquisite. Only travel can do this

*sob*

Wrong.

Only PB can do this. Where is your experience if you didn't have us to relay it to as it happens. An article several days or weeks later isn't the same.

Happy to be here for you.

Dura_Ace · April 27

Dura_Ace said:

boulay said:

Dura recommended the new Renault 5 which I would agree with. I think he said he has ordered one for himself so put his money where his mouth is which is a good sign.

No discounts on them though. I paid full whack for mine. Arrives 1st June. I could have had one quicker if I didn't want a specific colour. I've got OZ wheels and H&R lowering springs waiting for it but others must act as their conscience dictates.

Back up to six cars...

Forgot to say, you can probably get a lower sticker price with dealer financing but I paid cash for mine.

BartholomewRoberts · April 27

The Canadian car attack seems to have been targetting the Filipino community.

I find this cryptic statement by the Police rather puzzling, the suspect was "known to police in certain circumstances".

What does that mean? I thought it was generally a binary that the suspect was either known, or not known, to the Police. But to only be known in certain circumstances, is this like Schrodinger's suspect, or more like Heisenberg's?

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame

Huawei also make cars. They apparently have the best of the Chinese version of Tesla Autopilot.

TOPPING · April 27

Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.

BartholomewRoberts · April 27

TOPPING said:
Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.

I wasn't online and must have missed it. Did it involve Leon being drunk and who else was involved?

Scott_xP · April 27

TOPPING said:
Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.

Wrexham!

Oh, you mean the other one...

TimS · April 27

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame

If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.

Gadfly · April 27

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Society has portrayed as baby eating monsters.

Remember in the early 2000s I was a Tory living in London, it was grim as lefty friends thought I wanted to kill poor people and have a zero tax rate.

Sometimes it is better to keep your head down.

"Too many Labour people and progressives more generally have come to believe in their own superior virtue. They are the good people, the smart people, the people who care, and so they gravitate towards ideas and policies that seem good, smart and caring. That their opponents, who are wicked, unenlightened and cruel, disagree with them only confirms the righteousness of these positions."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-is-a-shallow-hollow-man/

TOPPING · April 27

BartholomewRoberts said:

TOPPING said:
Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.
I wasn't online and must have missed it. Did it involve Leon being drunk and who else was involved?

Someone said that the control over valve timing that a double overhead twin camshaft gives you wasn't a significant benefit vs an EV and all hell broke loose.

nico67 · April 27

BartholomewRoberts said:
The Canadian car attack seems to have been targetting the Filipino community.

I find this cryptic statement by the Police rather puzzling, the suspect was "known to police in certain circumstances".

What does that mean? I thought it was generally a binary that the suspect was either known, or not known, to the Police. But to only be known in certain circumstances, is this like Schrodinger's suspect, or more like Heisenberg's?

Yes it was a bizarre statement . Footage of the alleged suspect is quite surreal with him cowering his head and saying sorry for the attack .

Roger · April 27

Theuniondivvie said:
I’m now getting paid ads on twitter from an account called Deport Foreign Criminals suggesting the only way ‘it’ will stop is by a dictator taking control of Great Britain. I’ve clicked the ‘not interested in this ad’ for this rsole previously but they still keep coming back, and on the Following rather than the For You feed.
It’d be interesting to know who or what is paying for them.

https://x.com/peterstopcrime/status/1916385217629036671?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

Be interesting to give it to an investigative journalist but hardly any exist and several of the new news outlets will be in sympathy with the writer.

MattW · April 27

College said:

DM_Andy said:

College said:
Quiz time.

Which 3 political parties have a bicycle as their symbol?

Hint: they are in 3 different countries.
The only one that comes to mind is the Samajwadi Party in India

That's one of them. The other two are from countries nearby.

The use of the symbol made me think of the boot, ship, etc., in Monopoly. It's cooler than the use of numbers by political parties in Brazil. It's similarly for appealing to non-literate voters but it's also designed to appeal to people in a few different social classes. There's probably a reference to the Ashoka Chakra in there somewhere too. Clever piece of design.

I've had a look at this, and I can find more than 3 - but I had to dig, and they are not all current or from that area. I should have known this, at least in part.

And I think I may need to do some Getty Images rootling to find images.

The Samajwadi Party are socialists who made progress as a secular Government, but afaics were swept away by the populist-nationalist BJP. I'm interested that the symbol is clearly a hybrid of a man's bike, but with sit up and beg handlebars and a parcel rack, The symbol is vintage 1992.

Their origins were to do with the demolition of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya by a Hindu nationalist mob, which was also linked to the then incarnation of the BJP.

I make the others:

Bangladesh Awami League.

Social Democratic Party (Mexico) - in the early 2000s. Then replaced by a slightly bizarre hybrid of a groping hand * and a peace-dove.

SDLP (Northern Ireland) - from 1970 to 2003. There the current symbol is some sort of weird egg whisk. It looks like the kind of thing Cybermen would use to remove your skull cap in their processing station.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/SDLP_logo.svg/1200px-SDLP_logo.svg.png )

* This illustrates the ambiguity of symbol design. I think it's meant as a version of an open hand releasing the dove, or stance that in the UK would make one ask "is it raining?".
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/PSD_logo_(Mexico).svg/400px-PSD_logo_(Mexico).svg.png

DecrepiterJohnL · April 27

Leon said:
Everyone is picnicking along the alamedin river as it tumbles out of the Tien Shan. There are kids bareback on horses and smoke rising from barbecues and laughing families outside yurts with babies and beatifiul daughters

And behind them the mighty peaks rise, glittering and lordly and icy white

Exquisite. Only travel can do this

*sob*

Only travel can do what exactly? The people you want us to envy with their horses and mountains have not travelled. They are at home, reading the Tashkent Gazette's travel writer's implorations to come to London to see Ferris wheels and big clocks and statues of lions near fountains because only travel can do this. It's all on YouTube anyway.

Dura_Ace · April 27

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame

It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Watching the video I linked. Along with all the Chinese brands and a few European brands like VW / Audi, Toyota and Nissan were at the show, it was interesting how out of date their cars looked particularly the insides. And we know VW are miles behind with their IT side of things, such they had had to buy Rivian just to get some working software that isn't 20 years old.

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?

I doubt Rolls Royce are losing any sleep over the likes of Hongqi.

MattW · April 27

TOPPING said:
Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.

Did I miss something? What happened?

(Serious question, Good morning, everyone.)

Leon · April 27

TimS said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.

Luxury and branding are fascinating things. Veblen goods. Despite the revelation that prada and Chanel and Vuitton shoes and bags are all being made in guangdong for 30p it probably won’t dent their sales much - BECAUSE you are paying for the label not the product (tho the product will be nice)

A luxury car is similar but different. No matter how posh the brand you still want performance. People review luxury cars they don’t really review handbags

So if you produce a beautiful car that performs realty well then yes you can break in to that sector

But it has to be outstanding in design or aesthetics etc

What China needs is a Chinese E Type jag for sale at a premium price. A car so lovely albeit pricey everyone swoons. Once that is done China becomes a luxury car maker

I wouldn’t bet against them. Look at the strategic way Korea has overtaken Anglo-American pop music when everyone thought it was impossible

Casino_Royale · April 27

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?

Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.

Casino_Royale · April 27

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?

You bought a Renault.

Chortle.

Casino_Royale · April 27

TOPPING said:
Meanwhile why is everyone wittering on about effing Canada when, for all its complications and controversy we witnessed a fight of the age last night.

www.politicalbetting.com

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Leon said:

TimS said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.
Luxury and branding are fascinating things. Veblen goods. Despite the revelation that prada and Chanel and Vuitton shoes and bags are all being made in guangdong for 30p it probably won’t dent their sales much - BECAUSE you are paying for the label not the product (tho the product will be nice)

A luxury car is similar but different. No matter how posh the brand you still want performance. People review luxury cars they don’t really review handbags

So if you produce a beautiful car that performs realty well then yes you can break in to that sector

But it has to be outstanding in design or aesthetics etc

What China needs is a Chinese E Type jag for sale at a premium price. A car so lovely albeit pricey everyone swoons. Once that is done China becomes a luxury car maker

I wouldn’t bet against them. Look at the strategic way Korea has overtaken Anglo-American pop music when everyone thought it was impossible

While it was interesting to see in Asia how people with money are actively choosing Chinese alternatives to iPhone or a Tesla/Audi/BMW, they definitely aren't when it comes to European luxury fashion brands.

boulay · April 27

Dura_Ace said:

boulay said:

Dura recommended the new Renault 5 which I would agree with. I think he said he has ordered one for himself so put his money where his mouth is which is a good sign.

No discounts on them though. I paid full whack for mine. Arrives 1st June. I could have had one quicker if I didn't want a specific colour. I've got OZ wheels and H&R lowering springs waiting for it but others must act as their conscience dictates.

Back up to six cars...

That’s not as long a wait as I would have expected. Considering one for myself for day to day and being a shy wallflower I won’t be going for yellow like you did but stick to boring black.

Dura_Ace · April 27

TimS said:

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.

Pre-malaise era Cadillacs (and some Chryslers, etc.) were luxurious and very refined (by the standards of the time).

I disagree on Lexus. The brand didn't work in Europe but it was and is a success in the US and elsewhere.

Finally, the Toyota Century is the refinement and luxury gold standard. Just a bit esoteric!

Foxy · April 27

FrancisUrquhart said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
I doubt Rolls Royce are losing any sleep over the likes of Hongqi.

That's what Triumph, BSA and Norton thought about Honda and Kawasaki.

Casino_Royale · April 27

Sean_F said:
I do from time to time, find myself wondering if this is like our 1970 election, with a sudden shift back to the government in the polls, that did not quite materialise on polling day. The swingback to Labour was real enough, but the polling overstated it.

I've bet on a Liberal minority government at 7/2, for that reason.

They are so far ahead in Ontario and Quebec - ground zero of English and French Canada, and where most live - plus solidly there in the Maritimes that I can't see how they won't be ahead in seats, my primary bet, but I could see a late shift denying them a majority.

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Foxy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
I doubt Rolls Royce are losing any sleep over the likes of Hongqi.
That's what Triumph, BSA and Norton thought about Honda and Kawasaki.

Not sure they are comparable.

A better comparison is how VW / Audi is absolutely getting their lunch eaten by Chinese cars in China. They were a very popular brand in China, really struggling now.

TimS · April 27

Casino_Royale said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.

It’s not entirely a passive phenomenon.

Conservatives, of all stripes, have long used “toughness” and callous language about certain groups in society to build what they’ve seen as a reputation for effective government. It’s part of the brand DNA.

Strivers vs skivers, work-shy benefits scroungers, lazy kids benefiting from grade inflation etc etc.

If they talk like that then they’re going to get a reputation as cold bastards, and it’s a strategy they’ve embraced and evidently see as being successful. So much so that Labour now seems to want to emulate it.

nova · April 27

BartholomewRoberts said:
The Canadian car attack seems to have been targetting the Filipino community.

I find this cryptic statement by the Police rather puzzling, the suspect was "known to police in certain circumstances".

What does that mean? I thought it was generally a binary that the suspect was either known, or not known, to the Police. But to only be known in certain circumstances, is this like Schrodinger's suspect, or more like Heisenberg's?

I have no idea about this case, but in situations like this, the press obviously ask if the suspect was "known to the police". The implication being that they had been flagged as a potential terrorist/murderer etc.

However, what if the police knew him as a shoplifter, or something else that wouldn't flag up as anything more serious?

Of course, it may just be more careful language. As we've seen in this country, the far right are pretty keen on using the question to spread conspiracies and cause unrest - so the police are "trying" to be honest, but don't want to tell everything they know about someone within hours of such an awful incident.

Foxy · April 27

TimS said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.
It’s not entirely a passive phenomenon.

Conservatives, of all stripes, have long used “toughness” and callous language about certain groups in society to build what they’ve seen as a reputation for effective government. It’s part of the brand DNA.

Strivers vs skivers, work-shy benefits scroungers, lazy kids benefiting from grade inflation etc etc.

If they talk like that then they’re going to get a reputation as cold bastards, and it’s a strategy they’ve embraced and evidently see as being successful. So much so that Labour now seems to want to emulate it.

It's also why the Conservatives shat the bed so thoroughly. A cruel but competent government gets support, but a cruel and incompetent government has very few friends, and the incompetence isn't easily forgotten.

Penddu2 · April 27

Some of the Chinese brands available in the Middle East are stunning (dont know if they are available in UK) - Changan make some excellent SUVs - albeit with a 1500 cc engine - more than enough for school runs and shopping trips (which is all most people want)

Casino_Royale · April 27

TimS said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.
It’s not entirely a passive phenomenon.

Conservatives, of all stripes, have long used “toughness” and callous language about certain groups in society to build what they’ve seen as a reputation for effective government. It’s part of the brand DNA.

Strivers vs skivers, work-shy benefits scroungers, lazy kids benefiting from grade inflation etc etc.

If they talk like that then they’re going to get a reputation as cold bastards, and it’s a strategy they’ve embraced and evidently see as being successful. So much so that Labour now seems to want to emulate it.

And, what you see as callous we see as facing-up-to-the-facts and hard-headed realism. Which is why we think our governments are more effective (let's maybe ignore the last one a little bit).

I haven't met any Conservatives in my life who take joy in those who, at times, lose out, but they do think tough choices are necessary because otherwise the country fails.

kinabalu · April 27

rcs1000 said:

kinabalu said:
I'm not that impressed with this French "whale" thing. The polls were mostly good for Trump in the run-up to 5/11. He was the betting fav.
Indeed: the actual result was the most likely scenario under Nate Silver's model.

With that said... Trump clearly outperformed at the national share level, just not by *that* much.

I hate to go back there - it's painful - but that Selzer rogue poll for Iowa has much to answer for. It boosted the (as it turned out) unfounded confidence of people like me who thought when push came to shove America would not do something so palpably nuts. By polling day the polls in general favoured Trump (just) but you could make good cases for all outcomes, a close result either way or a clear one either way.

Dura_Ace · April 27

boulay said:

Dura_Ace said:

boulay said:

Dura recommended the new Renault 5 which I would agree with. I think he said he has ordered one for himself so put his money where his mouth is which is a good sign.

No discounts on them though. I paid full whack for mine. Arrives 1st June. I could have had one quicker if I didn't want a specific colour. I've got OZ wheels and H&R lowering springs waiting for it but others must act as their conscience dictates.

Back up to six cars...
That’s not as long a wait as I would have expected. Considering one for myself for day to day and being a shy wallflower I won’t be going for yellow like you did but stick to boring black.

I ordered it in February... Yellow was a 1200 quid option. The cheeky sods. But RE30, RS01, A442, etc. so yellow it is.

Penddu2 · April 27

I see they now have some 2.0L options

nico67 · April 27

My final word on the trans debate Ed Davey making a good point .

If you’re a female to male trans are you supposed to use the female toilet? won’t that cause problems .

BartholomewRoberts · April 27

nico67 said:
My final word on the trans debate Ed Davey making a good point .

If you’re a female to male trans are you supposed to use the female toilet? won’t that cause problems .

The Supreme Court already answered the question, so it seems Davey wasn't paying attention.

The female toilet is for biological females. Biological males and anyone who has altered themselves to be male should not use it.

The answer is no, you should use a gender-neutral alternative toilet instead.

Casino_Royale · April 27

We need site rules on trans/toilets just like we do on AI/AI imagery.

kinabalu · April 27

Foxy said:

TimS said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.
It’s not entirely a passive phenomenon.

Conservatives, of all stripes, have long used “toughness” and callous language about certain groups in society to build what they’ve seen as a reputation for effective government. It’s part of the brand DNA.

Strivers vs skivers, work-shy benefits scroungers, lazy kids benefiting from grade inflation etc etc.

If they talk like that then they’re going to get a reputation as cold bastards, and it’s a strategy they’ve embraced and evidently see as being successful. So much so that Labour now seems to want to emulate it.
It's also why the Conservatives shat the bed so thoroughly. A cruel but competent government gets support, but a cruel and incompetent government has very few friends, and the incompetence isn't easily forgotten.

The loss of their 'trusted with the economy' rep is IMO easily their biggest problem. Until they regain this they are not winning another general election.

nico67 · April 27

BartholomewRoberts said:

nico67 said:
My final word on the trans debate Ed Davey making a good point .

If you’re a female to male trans are you supposed to use the female toilet? won’t that cause problems .
The Supreme Court already answered the question, so it seems Davey wasn't paying attention.

The female toilet is for biological females. Biological males and anyone who has altered themselves to be male should not use it.

The answer is no, you should use a gender-neutral alternative toilet instead.

A female to male trans is still a biological female .

Casino_Royale · April 27

Leon said:

TimS said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.
Luxury and branding are fascinating things. Veblen goods. Despite the revelation that prada and Chanel and Vuitton shoes and bags are all being made in guangdong for 30p it probably won’t dent their sales much - BECAUSE you are paying for the label not the product (tho the product will be nice)

A luxury car is similar but different. No matter how posh the brand you still want performance. People review luxury cars they don’t really review handbags

So if you produce a beautiful car that performs realty well then yes you can break in to that sector

But it has to be outstanding in design or aesthetics etc

What China needs is a Chinese E Type jag for sale at a premium price. A car so lovely albeit pricey everyone swoons. Once that is done China becomes a luxury car maker

China could never do that, because they don't do swagger and style, or the individual type statements that implies.

Theuniondivvie · April 27

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
You bought a Renault.

Chortle.

Didn't you buy a Jaguar?

...

Casino_Royale · April 27

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
You bought a Renault.

Chortle.
Didn't you buy a Jaguar?

...

Yeah. And that's 1,000 times more cool and less gay than a Renault.

FrancisUrquhart · April 27

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

TimS said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.
Luxury and branding are fascinating things. Veblen goods. Despite the revelation that prada and Chanel and Vuitton shoes and bags are all being made in guangdong for 30p it probably won’t dent their sales much - BECAUSE you are paying for the label not the product (tho the product will be nice)

A luxury car is similar but different. No matter how posh the brand you still want performance. People review luxury cars they don’t really review handbags

So if you produce a beautiful car that performs realty well then yes you can break in to that sector

But it has to be outstanding in design or aesthetics etc

What China needs is a Chinese E Type jag for sale at a premium price. A car so lovely albeit pricey everyone swoons. Once that is done China becomes a luxury car maker

China could never do that, because they don't do swagger and style, or the individual type statements that implies.

Interestingly it appears on the higher end the Chinese are actually employing Europeans to do the design. I believe KIA did the same, hiring designers from the big German car makers.

DecrepiterJohnL · April 27

Fun fact (h/t reddit where there is no discussion):-

No Prime Minister of Pakistan has served a full, five-year term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Pakistan

Theuniondivvie · April 27

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
You bought a Renault.

Chortle.
Didn't you buy a Jaguar?

...
Yeah. And that's 1,000 times more cool and less gay than a Renault.

A Jeg as Clarkson era Top Gear called them.

Nowt wrong with a bit of gayness in design, though..

MattW · April 27

kinabalu said:

Foxy said:

TimS said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigelb said:
Why is it always conservatives ?
Because they are judged more loudly by progressives who are also more established and influential.

50 years ago, it would have been the other way round.
It’s not entirely a passive phenomenon.

Conservatives, of all stripes, have long used “toughness” and callous language about certain groups in society to build what they’ve seen as a reputation for effective government. It’s part of the brand DNA.

Strivers vs skivers, work-shy benefits scroungers, lazy kids benefiting from grade inflation etc etc.

If they talk like that then they’re going to get a reputation as cold bastards, and it’s a strategy they’ve embraced and evidently see as being successful. So much so that Labour now seems to want to emulate it.
It's also why the Conservatives shat the bed so thoroughly. A cruel but competent government gets support, but a cruel and incompetent government has very few friends, and the incompetence isn't easily forgotten.
The loss of their 'trusted with the economy' rep is IMO easily their biggest problem. Until they regain this they are not winning another general election.

Do you see an opportunity for this?

They will only get to "have a go" when they are the last option available, or if the electorate makes a mistake - the evidence base that they have submitted for a verdict says they will make a dog's breakfast of it, and will place party firmly before country.

And there is no way to create an alternative evidence base whilst they have exiled themselves from power.

TOPPING · April 27

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
You bought a Renault.

Chortle.
Didn't you buy a Jaguar?

...
Yeah. And that's 1,000 times more cool and less gay than a Renault.

And I assume you've seen *that* advert.

Scott_xP · April 27

@Steven_Swinford

Times weekend read:

* Donald Trump is increasingly seen as an unreliable ally in Downing Street. Starmer said to believe UK's overwhelming national interest lies in closer alignment with EU

* New deal with EU will be unveiled on May 19 in summit at Lancaster House - will cover security, goods, agriculture, fishing. It will be far more substantive that any US deal

* The new internal deadline for the US deal is May 19. Concern is that EU deal and visuals of summit could infuriate Donald Trump and undermine deal

* Desire for deal with EU has influenced negotiations from US from off. On day one of negotiations UK made clear agricultural standards was red line because alignment with EU seen as greater priority

* YouGov polling for Times suggests 55% of voters want a closer relationship with EU, compared to 21% who think UK should have a closer relationship with the US

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1916409252639293518

nico67 · April 27

Scott_xP said:
@Steven_Swinford

Times weekend read:

* Donald Trump is increasingly seen as an unreliable ally in Downing Street. Starmer said to believe UK's overwhelming national interest lies in closer alignment with EU

* New deal with EU will be unveiled on May 19 in summit at Lancaster House - will cover security, goods, agriculture, fishing. It will be far more substantive that any US deal

* The new internal deadline for the US deal is May 19. Concern is that EU deal and visuals of summit could infuriate Donald Trump and undermine deal

* Desire for deal with EU has influenced negotiations from US from off. On day one of negotiations UK made clear agricultural standards was red line because alignment with EU seen as greater priority

* YouGov polling for Times suggests 55% of voters want a closer relationship with EU, compared to 21% who think UK should have a closer relationship with the US

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1916409252639293518

I’m so sick of this government obsession of not annoying the pathetic man child .

TOPPING · April 27

Leon said:

TimS said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:
Shanghai Auto Show 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oCmtWOUkQ

60 Chinese car brands....60....all with better tech than Western cars many available at rock bottom prices e.g. $15-20k for cars that cost $50-60k min from Western car companies. Tesla is f##ked, everybody put the real prestige brands are f##ked unless huge protectionism.
Discussing electric cars with friends who are in the market led to two conclusions for traditional luxury car marques. First, EV has its own cool factor, and we've seen this with Tesla replacing BMW or Mercedes. Second, EV provides its own luxury because the engine is quiet and does not vibrate.

But going forward, maybe there is more to life than price. It is not like everyone with an ICE car drove Skodas for the past several decades to save money. As EV ownership becomes normalised, the old values reassert themselves. Even without Elon trashing the brand, Tesla owners were beginning to question its looks and ergonomics, and you can see reviews of EVs where, as with ordinary cars, they talk about build quality, restricted views and unergonomic switch placement.
This is why Chinese car companies have all these brands. They are literally all over the map, cheap, mid, expensive, hybrid, ICE, 4x4, F150-esque trucks.

BYD brand already has high-end brands Denza, Fangchengbao, and Yangwang. I doubt those names will fly in the West, but again they are already doing it, where the Chinese just rebadge with a new brand they make up or buy a Western brand and use that.
A coupon of times in my recent global travels I’ve got an uber or a yandex or whatever, and a driver keen to chat and with some English has said “these cars, Chinese, they are amazing, so cheap, everyone is driving them now”

To hear that more than once - in essence - in two different countries - is quite something. If I was a western car maker, car investor, car worker - anything - I’d be terrified

I remember one of the drivers said it quite wistfully. As if he still respected Japanese and Korean and European cars but “what can you do when Chinese is this good and this cheap”. That was his tone
The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
If the Chinese can actually manage to make proper headway into the luxury car market - designing and building cars, not just owning OEMs - they’ll have done something no US, Japanese or Korean marquee has ever managed. I’m still a bit sceptical.

We are looking at new family cars after our old one was written off 2 weeks ago. We had a squiz at the Polestars and Genesis, as they had showrooms next door to each other. Genesis is the “posh” brand of Hyundai. But it’s bling, not posh. That’s been the problem for Asian carmakers trying to do posh. Whereas (Chinese owned but Euro built) Polestar has more visibly European refinement.

I reflected that only 4 countries have actually managed to build a reputation for refined luxury cars: Germany, Britain, Italy (but only spots cars), and Sweden (just about). France never could despite dominating luxury in other product segments, nor Spain, Czechia, Switzerland, Denmark, Japan, the US, Korea, China.

Two marques almost got there for different reasons: Tesla, in a kind of iPhone Silicon Valley way, but they were never that refined inside, and Lexus, but its quality was ahead of its brand which was Alan Partridged early on.
Luxury and branding are fascinating things. Veblen goods. Despite the revelation that prada and Chanel and Vuitton shoes and bags are all being made in guangdong for 30p it probably won’t dent their sales much - BECAUSE you are paying for the label not the product (tho the product will be nice)

A luxury car is similar but different. No matter how posh the brand you still want performance. People review luxury cars they don’t really review handbags

So if you produce a beautiful car that performs realty well then yes you can break in to that sector

But it has to be outstanding in design or aesthetics etc

What China needs is a Chinese E Type jag for sale at a premium price. A car so lovely albeit pricey everyone swoons. Once that is done China becomes a luxury car maker

I wouldn’t bet against them. Look at the strategic way Korea has overtaken Anglo-American pop music when everyone thought it was impossible

One of my friends went to wherever it is in Shanghai to get a fake premium brand watch (forget which one, it was blue...).

And for that he paid several hundred quid, vs the several thousand the real one costs. So not a cheapo Wanchai market job.

Unpick that. We say that Britain is status obsessed and here we have someone with, you'd have thought, very high status spending thousands on a watch to portray himself as one or two notches higher on one of the scales (not social, he has a handle).

Dura_Ace · April 27

Scott_xP said:
@Steven_Swinford

Times weekend read:

* Donald Trump is increasingly seen as an unreliable ally in Downing Street. Starmer said to believe UK's overwhelming national interest lies in closer alignment with EU

* New deal with EU will be unveiled on May 19 in summit at Lancaster House - will cover security, goods, agriculture, fishing. It will be far more substantive that any US deal

* The new internal deadline for the US deal is May 19. Concern is that EU deal and visuals of summit could infuriate Donald Trump and undermine deal

* Desire for deal with EU has influenced negotiations from US from off. On day one of negotiations UK made clear agricultural standards was red line because alignment with EU seen as greater priority

* YouGov polling for Times suggests 55% of voters want a closer relationship with EU, compared to 21% who think UK should have a closer relationship with the US

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1916409252639293518

Petit a petit, l'oiseau fait son nid, as they say in Bruxelles. It'll be stealth rejoin by the end of this parliament.

TOPPING · April 27

nico67 said:

Scott_xP said:
@Steven_Swinford

Times weekend read:

* Donald Trump is increasingly seen as an unreliable ally in Downing Street. Starmer said to believe UK's overwhelming national interest lies in closer alignment with EU

* New deal with EU will be unveiled on May 19 in summit at Lancaster House - will cover security, goods, agriculture, fishing. It will be far more substantive that any US deal

* The new internal deadline for the US deal is May 19. Concern is that EU deal and visuals of summit could infuriate Donald Trump and undermine deal

* Desire for deal with EU has influenced negotiations from US from off. On day one of negotiations UK made clear agricultural standards was red line because alignment with EU seen as greater priority

* YouGov polling for Times suggests 55% of voters want a closer relationship with EU, compared to 21% who think UK should have a closer relationship with the US

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1916409252639293518
I’m so sick of this government obsession of not annoying the pathetic man child .

There was a good article in The Times about this (and letters about the article yesterday). Get over yourself. The US is the only game in town. Of course we have to please them. They are the six hundred pound gorilla.

We often say that Britain has struggled to come to terms with its post-colonial status (there's that status word again). Well this is the reality of having a colonial power to whom we are subservient.

Foxy · April 27

nico67 said:
My final word on the trans debate Ed Davey making a good point .

If you’re a female to male trans are you supposed to use the female toilet? won’t that cause problems .

It's never the final word...

I expect Trans-men will simply break the law and use male toilets and changing areas, and no one will be bothered.

Casino_Royale · April 27

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

rcs1000 said:

The new Xiaomi* car is amazing: it's like a Porsche Taycan clone, but at a third of the price.

See: https://youtu.be/XX3rRntdyYc?si=kIOXjSN6sNGu95yR

* Yes, them of smart phone fame
It takes decades to build a high end car brand though, look at how long Hyundai have been plugging away at it with Genesis.

Nobody who is considering a Taycan is going to buy a Xiaomi just because it's a lot cheaper. I could see them slaughtering weaker commodity brands though. What exactly is the point of Vauxhall, Fiat and Peugeot?
You bought a Renault.

Chortle.
Didn't you buy a Jaguar?

...
Yeah. And that's 1,000 times more cool and less gay than a Renault.
And I assume you've seen *that* advert.

Yeah. Don't.

rottenborough · April 27

Keiran Pedley
‪@keiranpedley.bsky.social‬

Follow
Bombshell new poll from
@ipsosintheuk.bsky.social

shows economic optimism at its lowest level we have EVER seen.

Remember - Ipsos have been recording this since 1978!

https://bsky.app/profile/keiranpedley.bsky.social/post/3lnrq3sxyoc2o

Foxy · April 27

Dura_Ace said:

Scott_xP said:
@Steven_Swinford

Times weekend read:

* Donald Trump is increasingly seen as an unreliable ally in Downing Street. Starmer said to believe UK's overwhelming national interest lies in closer alignment with EU

* New deal with EU will be unveiled on May 19 in summit at Lancaster House - will cover security, goods, agriculture, fishing. It will be far more substantive that any US deal

* The new internal deadline for the US deal is May 19. Concern is that EU deal and visuals of summit could infuriate Donald Trump and undermine deal

* Desire for deal with EU has influenced negotiations from US from off. On day one of negotiations UK made clear agricultural standards was red line because alignment with EU seen as greater priority

* YouGov polling for Times suggests 55% of voters want a closer relationship with EU, compared to 21% who think UK should have a closer relationship with the US

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1916409252639293518
Petit a petit, l'oiseau fait son nid, as they say in Bruxelles. It'll be stealth rejoin by the end of this parliament.

Much as I would like to see it, it won't be. Starmer is frit of his own shadow and wouldn't do anything to annoy the Daily Mail. Not that it will do him any good, they hate him anyway.

Shy Conservatives? – politicalbetting.com

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