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Punters think recent events help Labour and the Tories – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,356
edited March 10 in General
Punters think recent events help Labour and the Tories – politicalbetting.com

at the time of the next election, which is potentially over four years away, will the name Rupert Lowe really move votes in a way the traditional vote deciders such as the economy or the NHS? I have my doubts.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,052
    First
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    edited March 10
    Second.

    What information do we think will be added by the Local Elections in a few weeks?

    (Apart from that the Conservatives will be mining hopium and copium on a Brobdingnagian scale, given that they hold around 1000 from 1600 seats up for election if my numbers are correct.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,640
    Never mind Reform, Lowe and Trump. There's a scandal closer to home.

    barking mad Crufts 2025’s Best in Show winner backlash as favourite is ‘robbed’, claim fans
    The fan favourite of the Best in Show missed out on a podium place

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/33765262/crufts-2025-winner-revealed-best-in-show-history/

    PB's dog for scale correspondent never warned us about this.

    TL;DR yet another space-filler based on cutting and pasting from TwiX which is what passes for journalism nowadays.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,640
    MattW said:

    Second.

    What information do we think will be added by the Local Elections in a few weeks?

    (Apart from that the Conservatives will be mining hopium and copium on a Brobdingnagian scale, given that they hold around 1000 from 1600 seats up for election if my numbers are correct.)

    No information but possibly a new leader for the blue team and certainly more infighting.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    edited March 10

    Never mind Reform, Lowe and Trump. There's a scandal closer to home.

    barking mad Crufts 2025’s Best in Show winner backlash as favourite is ‘robbed’, claim fans
    The fan favourite of the Best in Show missed out on a podium place

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/33765262/crufts-2025-winner-revealed-best-in-show-history/

    PB's dog for scale correspondent never warned us about this.

    TL;DR yet another space-filler based on cutting and pasting from TwiX which is what passes for journalism nowadays.

    That's a perfect fit for yesterday's "Weight loss drugs" piece from the BBC:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly62lmpll3o

    Thin dog preferred to fat dog in practice; public don't like to admit it and tabloids exist for controversy not news.

    The mistake was that Last of the Summer Wine never had a St Bernard in it as a regular character. Men prefer whippets and Kylie.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,640
    edited March 10
    ARMAGEDDON ALERT Donald Trump says ‘monster’ nukes could be ‘end of the world’ in stark nuclear war warning over missile stockpiles
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33761941/donald-trump-monster-nukes-end-of-world/

    President Trump has floated a new arms control agreement.


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,044
    MattW said:

    Second.

    What information do we think will be added by the Local Elections in a few weeks?

    (Apart from that the Conservatives will be mining hopium and copium on a Brobdingnagian scale, given that they hold around 1000 from 1600 seats up for election if my numbers are correct.)

    Given the initial map, there will be a hefty seam of copium- surely the Conservatives will "win" the elections, in terms of most votes and most councillors elected. They would have to lose about half their current councillors (roughly equally to LD and Ref I suspect) to fall off that perch.

    Fail to clear that hurdle, and Kemi will likely be out by evensong on Friday.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,566
    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    rkrkrk said:
    That's other mince, sorry, by focussing on just year seven is a bit like deciding a football match result based on the first 10 minutes.

    Spoiler alert: There are students in years other than year 7.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,724
    rkrkrk said:
    I think any behavioural response would take years/decades to materialise. Isolating it will be difficult - private school fees have increased by over 50% in real terms since 2000, yet the proportion of children going has remained fixed at around 6%/7%.

    (I guess that reflects growing inequality more than anything. The funding gap between private/state has doubled since 2010).
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,283

    ARMAGEDDON ALERT Donald Trump says ‘monster’ nukes could be ‘end of the world’ in stark nuclear war warning over missile stockpiles
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33761941/donald-trump-monster-nukes-end-of-world/

    President Trump has floated a new arms control agreement.


    Will Mr Trump be offering USA protection as a guarantee of security in return for nonproliferation?

    Good morning, everyone.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972

    ARMAGEDDON ALERT Donald Trump says ‘monster’ nukes could be ‘end of the world’ in stark nuclear war warning over missile stockpiles
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33761941/donald-trump-monster-nukes-end-of-world/

    President Trump has floated a new arms control agreement.


    I bet he floats everybody but the USA should give up their nukes.

    Oh, and Russia.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,044
    On topic "Farage falls out with his followers, squashes his emerging rival like a bug" won't be news to anyone who has followed his career. Though it's a plausible cue for a selloff in what looked like a toppy price.

    The bigger risk is that the British right goes a bit French. National Rally squeezed the Republicans from the right, but then got squeezed from even further right by Reconquest.

    And unlike France, the British system doesn't allow the concertina to squeeze back in a second round of voting.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    Back on topic, it all depends on how Trump decides to play geopolitics. If we genuinely end up with a hostile America then Reform will be miles away from them with Farage fronting it as "He was my friend then he went mad".

    The fundamental problems in people's lives don't change whether or not the ex-chair of Southampton FC is ousted, nor whether Trump goes mad. People are looking for a solution which the Tories and Labour have failed to deliver.

    If Reform collapse completely into infighting then they're done. And something else will capture the zeitgeist and take these votes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,815
    Another way of looking at the subject of the lead is to consider the experience of the SDP, which after launch became very popular to support, attracting all sorts of people many with little or no prior political interest; nevertheless despite such an encouraging start, its support peaked, began to decline (without the help of any obvious scandal, as far as I can recall) and then dropped away as geopolitical events (the Falklands War) captured the headlines, the electoral system denied the party any sort of decent return on its quarter share of the vote, and Labour began its long march toward sorting itself out.

    Farage and his motly crew could easily go the same way.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,283
    We're seeing with Mr Trump that normalcy bias is wrong lately. If we're in an era when that's a thing, then it puts a lot of calculations out.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    AnneJGP said:

    ARMAGEDDON ALERT Donald Trump says ‘monster’ nukes could be ‘end of the world’ in stark nuclear war warning over missile stockpiles
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33761941/donald-trump-monster-nukes-end-of-world/

    President Trump has floated a new arms control agreement.


    Will Mr Trump be offering USA protection as a guarantee of security in return for nonproliferation?

    Good morning, everyone.
    So Trump is going to start investigating how to make even bigger Nukes

    While the rest of the world starts looking at how to make smaller ones because they are no longer protected by the USA,,
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972

    Never mind Reform, Lowe and Trump. There's a scandal closer to home.

    barking mad Crufts 2025’s Best in Show winner backlash as favourite is ‘robbed’, claim fans
    The fan favourite of the Best in Show missed out on a podium place

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/33765262/crufts-2025-winner-revealed-best-in-show-history/

    PB's dog for scale correspondent never warned us about this.

    TL;DR yet another space-filler based on cutting and pasting from TwiX which is what passes for journalism nowadays.

    Your PB.com Canine Correspondent did point out from his priveleged position On The Sofa In Front of the Telly that it was a wonderful whippet. A worthy winner.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    Morning Pb.

    FPT : Musk has already lost 100 billion in three months, and may lose another 100 billion to be back, behind Bezos, by mid-year.

    SpaceX also looks to be having some troubles.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,566

    rkrkrk said:
    That's other mince, sorry, by focussing on just year seven is a bit like deciding a football match result based on the first 10 minutes.

    Spoiler alert: There are students in years other than year 7.
    Surely you'd accept its less likely parents would take their kids out midway through their time at a school, and more likely they would make the switch before starting a new school?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,158
    IanB2 said:

    Another way of looking at the subject of the lead is to consider the experience of the SDP, which after launch became very popular to support, attracting all sorts of people many with little or no prior political interest; nevertheless despite such an encouraging start, its support peaked, began to decline (without the help of any obvious scandal, as far as I can recall) and then dropped away as geopolitical events (the Falklands War) captured the headlines, the electoral system denied the party any sort of decent return on its quarter share of the vote, and Labour began its long march toward sorting itself out.

    Farage and his motly crew could easily go the same way.

    Also the header doesn't really talk about the likelihood that Reform might spend the next four years in the same manner they've spent the last four weeks.
    Is the Lowe spat an aberration, or is it characteristic ?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 541
    Eabhal said:

    rkrkrk said:
    I think any behavioural response would take years/decades to materialise. Isolating it will be difficult - private school fees have increased by over 50% in real terms since 2000, yet the proportion of children going has remained fixed at around 6%/7%.

    (I guess that reflects growing inequality more than anything. The funding gap between private/state has doubled since 2010).
    I recall that there was a trend for children to be in the state sector up until 6th form, then private later. Suppose the hope would be that there would be some sort of cachet attached. Perhaps that market will take a hit.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,766
    I think there is a policy argument behind the shenanigans that could be important for the future of Reform. Lowe reckons Farage isn't extreme enough.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    There was much commentary on PB yesterday about "but but but are our nukes really independent of Mr Trump?"

    George Allison has published an explainer:

    "Here’s how Britain’s nukes are ‘operationally independent’"
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/heres-how-britains-nukes-are-operationally-independent/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,185
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:
    That's other mince, sorry, by focussing on just year seven is a bit like deciding a football match result based on the first 10 minutes.

    Spoiler alert: There are students in years other than year 7.
    Surely you'd accept its less likely parents would take their kids out midway through their time at a school, and more likely they would make the switch before starting a new school?
    My eldest has seen two kids leave his form since VAT kicked in.

    If you're a parent with three kids in private schools you're going to have find on average nearly an extra grand a month to cover the VAT.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,073

    SpaceX also looks to be having some troubles.

    https://x.com/AndyGJBurge/status/1898282235947524186
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,044

    rkrkrk said:
    That's other mince, sorry, by focussing on just year seven is a bit like deciding a football match result based on the first 10 minutes.

    Spoiler alert: There are students in years other than year 7.
    Though Year 7 intake was the likely pressure point, since children generally change schools then anyway. If things are fine there this year, they're probably going to be fine throughout.

    Whatever the rights or wrongs of VAT on private schools (and some bits of the state sector are in the VAT system), a mass switch out of private schools making the state system fall over was always unlikely.

    Partly because the baby bust after 2010 or so is now in the secondary age range- state schools are generally shrinking or closing. But also because schools are Veblen goods- expensive=reassuring (thanks whoever here taught me that term.) Both those points were known in advance.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    eek said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ARMAGEDDON ALERT Donald Trump says ‘monster’ nukes could be ‘end of the world’ in stark nuclear war warning over missile stockpiles
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/33761941/donald-trump-monster-nukes-end-of-world/

    President Trump has floated a new arms control agreement.


    Will Mr Trump be offering USA protection as a guarantee of security in return for nonproliferation?

    Good morning, everyone.
    So Trump is going to start investigating how to make even bigger Nukes

    While the rest of the world starts looking at how to make smaller ones because they are no longer protected by the USA,,
    This is beginning to remind me of a comment by Albert Speer about the orgasmic raptures Hitler used to go into when talking about the many thousands of tons of concrete going into building his latest fortification.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,566
    Eabhal said:

    rkrkrk said:
    I think any behavioural response would take years/decades to materialise. Isolating it will be difficult - private school fees have increased by over 50% in real terms since 2000, yet the proportion of children going has remained fixed at around 6%/7%.

    (I guess that reflects growing inequality more than anything. The funding gap between private/state has doubled since 2010).
    No, I would expect the switch to be nearly immediate, especially given Lab are in power for at least 4 years and have shown no signs of changing their minds. I wouldn't expect people to switch schools immediately (although that would be very strong evidence for elasticity), but I would definitely expect new sign ups to be down - and we aren't seeing that. It seems the private schools have largely rightly judged they could pass this cost on and have done so.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858
    MattW said:

    There was much commentary on PB yesterday about "but but but are our nukes really independent of Mr Trump?"

    George Allison has published an explainer:

    "Here’s how Britain’s nukes are ‘operationally independent’"
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/heres-how-britains-nukes-are-operationally-independent/

    Thanks for that; it seems a balanced and factual piece as I understand the situation. A lot of pro-Russia trolls and idiots like to spread the idea that the Yanks have a magic button that stops us from launching the weapons from the subs...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,319
    rkrkrk said:

    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.

    I guess this detail wasn’t important then?

    Jessica Brösche was walking from Tijuana to San Diego with her friend, Nikita Lofving, an American citizen living in Los Angeles, when she was stopped by U.S. Customs and Border Protection and accused of working in the country last time she was in the United States on a visa, KGTV reported.

    https://www.latintimes.com/german-tourist-detained-ice-spent-more-week-solitary-confinement-while-traveling-california-577370

    I have no knowledge of this specific case - this was the first Google article
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,158
    The US cutting of intel and targeting information, without notice, looks as though it could help cost Ukraine the entire Kursk salient.
    Along with the forces there.

    Russian forces are collapsing the northern part of the Ukrainian salient in Kursk Oblast following several days of intensified Russian activity in the area.

    The temporal correlation between the suspension of US intelligence sharing with Ukraine and the start of Russia's collapse of the Ukrainian Kursk salient is noteworthy...

    https://x.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1898887404754448682
  • CJohnCJohn Posts: 73

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    Which party did you change from and to?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,319

    rkrkrk said:
    That's other mince, sorry, by focussing on just year seven is a bit like deciding a football match result based on the first 10 minutes.

    Spoiler alert: There are students in years other than year 7.
    Plus that article was entirely focused on the numbers of kids getting their first choice.

    The only county that gave numbers for children was +56 on last year’s 608.

    9% seems like a large year on year variance but I don’t know what is normal. @ydoethur ?

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    MattW said:

    There was much commentary on PB yesterday about "but but but are our nukes really independent of Mr Trump?"

    George Allison has published an explainer:

    "Here’s how Britain’s nukes are ‘operationally independent’"
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/heres-how-britains-nukes-are-operationally-independent/

    Thanks for that; it seems a balanced and factual piece as I understand the situation. A lot of pro-Russia trolls and idiots like to spread the idea that the Yanks have a magic button that stops us from launching the weapons from the subs...
    The signs are that the government isn't working on this assumption.

    It seems that the Germans might help fund an anglo-french nuclear project.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    Not working on the assumption that our deterrent is independent, I mean.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,158
    Diehl Defence, a manufacturer of the Iris-T air defense system, signed an agreement with the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine

    The document provides for a threefold increase in the supply of missiles and air defense systems

    https://x.com/NijhuisClaretta/status/1898866806049341828
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678

    MattW said:

    There was much commentary on PB yesterday about "but but but are our nukes really independent of Mr Trump?"

    George Allison has published an explainer:

    "Here’s how Britain’s nukes are ‘operationally independent’"
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/heres-how-britains-nukes-are-operationally-independent/

    Thanks for that; it seems a balanced and factual piece as I understand the situation. A lot of pro-Russia trolls and idiots like to spread the idea that the Yanks have a magic button that stops us from launching the weapons from the subs...
    George Allison is generally very sane and reliable, and quite self-effacing. When he put his site on Patreon last year to fund spending more time on it, he set his membership level at $1.

    Some knowledgeable commenters, but also some wildcards, and everyone likes playing Fantasy Forces.

    He annoys Nats sometimes because he repeatedly and politely explains how to count frigates.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,766

    rkrkrk said:

    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.

    I guess this detail wasn’t important then?

    Jessica Brösche was walking from Tijuana to San Diego with her friend, Nikita Lofving, an American citizen living in Los Angeles, when she was stopped by U.S. Customs and Border Protection and accused of working in the country last time she was in the United States on a visa, KGTV reported.

    https://www.latintimes.com/german-tourist-detained-ice-spent-more-week-solitary-confinement-while-traveling-california-577370

    I have no knowledge of this specific case - this was the first Google article
    Even if true, the deal with the visa waiver program is that you can be immediately sent back on the total discretion of the border guard, not that you are placed indefinitely in solitary confinement at your expense. This is a change.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,566

    rkrkrk said:

    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.

    I guess this detail wasn’t important then?

    Jessica Brösche was walking from Tijuana to San Diego with her friend, Nikita Lofving, an American citizen living in Los Angeles, when she was stopped by U.S. Customs and Border Protection and accused of working in the country last time she was in the United States on a visa, KGTV reported.

    https://www.latintimes.com/german-tourist-detained-ice-spent-more-week-solitary-confinement-while-traveling-california-577370

    I have no knowledge of this specific case - this was the first Google article
    Well the CNN story I read didn't mention that, but regardless, just send her home? Why detain her at your expense? It doesn't make sense to me.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972
    FF43 said:

    I think there is a policy argument behind the shenanigans that could be important for the future of Reform. Lowe reckons Farage isn't extreme enough.

    Taking his cue from Elon Musk.

    What do our home-grown billionaires think?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858
    I don't know how true this is, but the amazing thing is that it is believable at all.

    "Russian forces in Kursk SUDDENLY have extremely precise coordinates for our troop locations, logistics and ammo depots, and this CANNOT be a coincidence.

    I think that Trump's administration is trying to 'give Kursk to russia' before negotiations begin as part of a secret deal with russia.

    As he HIMSELF said, he wants Ukraine to have 'no cards to play at all'."

    https://x.com/AleksandrX13/status/1898893581462479359
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    FF43 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.

    I guess this detail wasn’t important then?

    Jessica Brösche was walking from Tijuana to San Diego with her friend, Nikita Lofving, an American citizen living in Los Angeles, when she was stopped by U.S. Customs and Border Protection and accused of working in the country last time she was in the United States on a visa, KGTV reported.

    https://www.latintimes.com/german-tourist-detained-ice-spent-more-week-solitary-confinement-while-traveling-california-577370

    I have no knowledge of this specific case - this was the first Google article
    Even if true, the deal with the visa waiver program is that you can be immediately sent back on the total discretion of the border guard, not that you are placed indefinitely in solitary confinement at your expense. This is a change.
    Is this not simply Trump's indifferent & deliberate performative cruelty, pour encourager les autres?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,400
    85.9% of approval rating for President Scheinbaum in Mexico. Pretty impressive.

    https://bsky.app/profile/joncooper-us.bsky.social/post/3ljymnsc6i22b

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858
    MattW said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
    But it doesn't matter, as Tesla makes cool cars (*) and SpaceX's rockets are brilliant. And Musk is a genius (**).

    (*) Rapidly becoming not so, thankfully, now they are seen as Swasticars.
    (**) Hopefully even this is now only believed by idiots.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,972
    MattW said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
    It's nice there are the occassional moments of humour.

    But the rest of it is monumentally crushing of the spirit. Will America escape its Cycle of Stupid? Will we follow down that rabbit hole? You'd like to think not, but....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    MattW said:

    There was much commentary on PB yesterday about "but but but are our nukes really independent of Mr Trump?"

    George Allison has published an explainer:

    "Here’s how Britain’s nukes are ‘operationally independent’"
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/heres-how-britains-nukes-are-operationally-independent/

    Thanks for that; it seems a balanced and factual piece as I understand the situation. A lot of pro-Russia trolls and idiots like to spread the idea that the Yanks have a magic button that stops us from launching the weapons from the subs...
    The signs are that the government isn't working on this assumption.

    It seems that the Germans might help fund an anglo-french nuclear project.
    That article is very interesting for highlighting a common misconception. We have *operational* independence - we can use the missiles and nukes whenever we want. But that is different from structural independence, where we need American help for medium-term logistics and infrastructure.

    The Anglo-French nuclear project would create interesting issues with first-use policies, as France has a rather unique first-strike strategy that we do not share.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    MattW said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
    It's nice there are the occassional moments of humour.

    But the rest of it is monumentally crushing of the spirit. Will America escape its Cycle of Stupid? Will we follow down that rabbit hole? You'd like to think not, but....
    I don't think it will.
    My Tory cousins in Gloucestershire, they of the green wellies and anti-Frenchism, have turned against America. Momentous, and always a bellwether in our family.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    I don't think we'll follow America don't the rabbit hole, I mean.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,724
    MattW said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
    "Women", "female", "black", "clean energy", "Native American", "disability", "race" are also among the suppressed words. Those who went along with the anti-woke, anti-DEI stuff were frankly childishly naive - it was always about reversing civil rights all the way back to the 60s.

    "Advocate" is also in there. First they came for the lawyers, and, understandably...
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,094
    Eabhal said:

    rkrkrk said:
    I think any behavioural response would take years/decades to materialise. Isolating it will be difficult - private school fees have increased by over 50% in real terms since 2000, yet the proportion of children going has remained fixed at around 6%/7%.

    (I guess that reflects growing inequality more than anything. The funding gap between private/state has doubled since 2010).
    - Banning fox-hunting will turn the countryside into a desolate wasteland.
    - Minimum wage will lead to mass unemployment.
    - Reducing the agricultural IHT exemption will lead to food shortages.
    - VAT on school fees will cause an education meltdown.

    All should be filed in the same bin.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,277
    Morning all :)

    On topic - as so many have said so often since July 2024, the next GE is a lifetime away and trying to predict then from now looks the epitome of the fool's errand. Remember how everyone was so convinced Boris Johnson would be re-elected with an increased majority even as late as early 2021 given how "popular" the Government's handling of Covid appeared to be?

    I do agree the obvious beneficiaries of any Reform implosion will be all the other parties in general and the Conservatives and Labour in particular and if I were to have any bet at all with reference to the next GE at this time it would be on an increased vote share for both parties.

    From the low point of 30.6% in 1997, the Conservative vote share rose at every election until reaching a peak of 43.6% in 2019 before crashing so spectacularly last time. You can see in the constituency results across a swathe of seats in the north of England and the Midlands how the Conservative vote recovered and built from the 1997 nadir.

    I don't know if that will happen again - it might, it might not.

    The key question is whether people will "feel" better off at the end of the first Starmer administration - if they do, Labour will likely be re-elected (whether that will be 2001 redux or more like 2005 I don't know). The other question is whether all those who didn't vote last year will vote next time - 3 million or so and that's a big block of potential voters to be persuaded.

    There's also of course external issues though they probably matter less to most voters than we on here imagine. Nonetheless, the general "background noise" isn't without significance.

    At this stage, lots of questions, lots of hypotheses, very few answers.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678

    MattW said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.
    Indeed they have already gone after gay people. It's partly the obsession with traditional families (see the 1950s), keeping women in the house, and more white babies - as we also see over here now.

    Reportedly (AP), the photo of the Enola Gay - the plane that dropped the atom bomb - is on the Trump "scrub the Department of Defence website" list under "DEI".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ90aLXmbVY

    The playbook is from the Loon Lobby. I did not know about the one from a decade ago where a Christian website replaced "gay" with "homosexual" and turned the sprinter Tyson Gay into Tyson Homosexual (from the Standard):

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-websites-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html

    They are completely nuts. And they are serious about being nuts - which is a big part of the problem.
    It's nice there are the occassional moments of humour.

    But the rest of it is monumentally crushing of the spirit. Will America escape its Cycle of Stupid? Will we follow down that rabbit hole? You'd like to think not, but....
    That takes me back to my consistent analysis.

    No, imo we won't follow the USA down the rabbit hole, for the same reasons we did not swallow Christian Dominionism or the Prosperity Gospel back in the 1980s. Even now it is at best fringe, even though some on the Right are going down the Dominionism-at-one-remove route (that is culturally not theologically) to a degree (eg NatCon has a whiff of it, and people like Matt Goodwin). Witness, for example, the obsession with demonising particularly Muslims - that has been a theme on the UK radical (choose your word) right for 20 years or more.

    We have too many checks and balances in place still.

    Chunks of Trump's movement *really believe it* and have gone down the rabbit hole themselves, such that even their thought through justifications are from planet Zarg.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,103
    Foxy said:

    85.9% of approval rating for President Scheinbaum in Mexico. Pretty impressive.

    https://bsky.app/profile/joncooper-us.bsky.social/post/3ljymnsc6i22b

    Good news. Maybe the pendulum's moving faster than we thought and the good guys (and gals) are on the way back. I've been predicting a hippy revival since Trump 1 and the Marie Le Pen collapse.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,644

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    This needs refining. There are tons of plausible absolutes. Take 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' as a precise example.
    The puzzle is not that it is an absolute - we all know it is, even David Hume despite his denials would have known it was true, but why, and how.

    Secondly, morality does not in general deal with absolutes. Mostly absolutes, like the one I instance, look after themselves. It is exactly because of shades of grey that moral philosophy, morality, or ethics is a subject which isn't going to be settled and isn't going away.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882

    Never mind Reform, Lowe and Trump. There's a scandal closer to home.

    barking mad Crufts 2025’s Best in Show winner backlash as favourite is ‘robbed’, claim fans
    The fan favourite of the Best in Show missed out on a podium place

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/33765262/crufts-2025-winner-revealed-best-in-show-history/

    PB's dog for scale correspondent never warned us about this.

    TL;DR yet another space-filler based on cutting and pasting from TwiX which is what passes for journalism nowadays.

    Your PB.com Canine Correspondent did point out from his priveleged position On The Sofa In Front of the Telly that it was a wonderful whippet. A worthy winner.

    Devo would be proud
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    I searched for Tesla February sales and this is the first article that appeared on Google:

    https://www.carscoops.com/2025/03/tesla-sales-falling-off-a-cliff-globally-including-germany-australia-and-china/

    And you think that this hasn't made Musk even slightly poorer? If you have a link for your claims please give it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855
    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    I searched for Tesla February sales and this is the first article that appeared on Google:

    https://www.carscoops.com/2025/03/tesla-sales-falling-off-a-cliff-globally-including-germany-australia-and-china/

    And you think that this hasn't made Musk even slightly poorer? If you have a link for your claims please give it.
    It looks actually realistic to me that he might be down to 200b by mid'-year.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,897
    @RochdalePioneers Elon’s malign influence is going to get worse, not better
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
    You don't bat them away very well.

    So let me ask you this: is there anything that could make you stop promoting Musk's products and brands? If he actually became fully fascist, or fully Nazi, or called for eradication of all trans people, would you still pretend that there's a disconnect between him and the products that give him his power?
  • FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    If I boycotted every company that I'm not happy about the ethics of, I'd have to walk around naked, eat grass and drink river water.
    Someone, somewhere is almost certainly getting exploited, no matter where we spend our money.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Keep doing what you do. You owe no one here anything, especially a justification. Some people seem to have lost their minds since Trump came to power.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    Good morning

    That is simply harsh and unfair on Tesla owners who purchased their cars long before the Trump- Musk nightmare

    Of course @RochdalePioneers doesn't want the destruction of democracy and European civilisation and I doubt owning or otherwise a Tesla has any relevance, other than the obnoxious and nasty Musk has a little bit less of his obscene wealth

    And I would say, I have no interest in buying an ev either now or in the future and certainly have never owned one, though I have driven one
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
    You don't bat them away very well.

    So let me ask you this: is there anything that could make you stop promoting Musk's products and brands? If he actually became fully fascist, or fully Nazi, or called for eradication of all trans people, would you still pretend that there's a disconnect between him and the products that give him his power?
    Is he going to do any of those things?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,882

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    Of course he’s not a fascist. This is bordering on everyone I disagree with it Hitler stuff. It’s like an episode of the Young Ones with Rik calling everyone a ‘fascist’.

    He wants a smaller state not a larger one.

    Less regulation not more.

    He’s a free speec absolutist and disruptor but he’s not going to annexe the Sudetenland.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,759
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    85.9% of approval rating for President Scheinbaum in Mexico. Pretty impressive.

    https://bsky.app/profile/joncooper-us.bsky.social/post/3ljymnsc6i22b

    Good news. Maybe the pendulum's moving faster than we thought and the good guys (and gals) are on the way back. I've been predicting a hippy revival since Trump 1 and the Marie Le Pen collapse.
    You still have 4 more years to endure ( at least )
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
    I have never seen your Youtube channel, and never will. It's enough to know it's called "Just Get a Tesla", combined with your misleading comments on here. Eg saying promoting Tesla isn't doesn't help Musk because "he's just the CEO and figurehead". I looked that one up too - Tesla makes up a massive chunk of Musk's total wealth.

    I also wouldn't buy or promote a car from a company where Putin is the biggest shareholder, even if I thought the car itself was technologically OK, and even if I stood to make money from doing so.

    And if I did promote such a car, I would fully expect to be condemned for it, even if philosophically "there are no moral absolutes"
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
    You don't bat them away very well.

    So let me ask you this: is there anything that could make you stop promoting Musk's products and brands? If he actually became fully fascist, or fully Nazi, or called for eradication of all trans people, would you still pretend that there's a disconnect between him and the products that give him his power?
    Is he going to do any of those things?
    Who knows? But given the journey he's already been on, to giving Nazi salutes, supporting the AfD and saying the Nazis were Communists, can you say it is utterly implausible?

    But nice swerve to avoid answering the question...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,855

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    He's retweeted far-right accounts promoting civil war in the UK. He was reintrointruced to Trump's canpaign by Peter Thiel, an open techno-fascist, who is the kingmaker, and also promoted fascist ideologues like Curtis Yarvin to Vance.

    He was named by his father after a character in a Nazi rocket scientists novel about a benign dictator who took over Mars. I would say the signs are pretty clear.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,678
    edited March 10
    I'm not entering the rhetorical knife fight, or the PB Truth & Reconciliation Commission's examination of Just Get a Tesla, but I note that the UK is about the only place known to me where Tesla sales went UP in February. :wink:

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/mar/05/teslas-uk-sales-rise-despite-threat-of-backlash-over-elon-musk-political-role
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,158
    Flattery was always something of a delusion; what Trump wants is complete subservience.

    Donald Trump has 'gone cool' on Britain since King Charles welcomed Zelensky to Sandringham, diplomatic sources in Washington have claimed, - Daily Mail

    Allies of the US President have made clear to UK officials in America that pictures of the King with the Ukranian leader made him feel 'less special' about the monarch's invitation for a state visit to Britain.

    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1898686677201150174
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,816
    We’re all guilty of buying products from morally questionable producers however given Musks behaviour over the last few years I wouldn’t drive a Tesla if it was handed to me free of charge . We’ve got beyond morally questionable to a much darker place .

    There’s a reason the vast majority of companies stay neutral politically, alienating a group of consumers isn’t really the way to go .

    And Musk seems to be alienating those most likely to be interested in EC .


  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    "Musk is a free speech absolutist"

    you are just writing total bollocks now.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,644

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    I wish you were right. But I think you have made an offer and paid a large deposit on Brooklyn Bridge.

    https://donmoynihan.substack.com/p/real-chilling-effects
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,319
    FF43 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Seeing lots of reports of tourists being detained by ICE in US even with valid documents.
    Apparently one German tourist who wanted to visit for 3 weeks has been detained for over a month!? Seems mad they won't let her in but also won't let her go home! All part of the Trump/Musk incompetence show.

    Tbh I'm not sure I want to travel to the US right now. I've managed to persuade my work team that UK is a better location for us to meet next time, but due to go again in October. Maybe things will have calmed down by then.

    I guess this detail wasn’t important then?

    Jessica Brösche was walking from Tijuana to San Diego with her friend, Nikita Lofving, an American citizen living in Los Angeles, when she was stopped by U.S. Customs and Border Protection and accused of working in the country last time she was in the United States on a visa, KGTV reported.

    https://www.latintimes.com/german-tourist-detained-ice-spent-more-week-solitary-confinement-while-traveling-california-577370

    I have no knowledge of this specific case - this was the first Google article
    Even if true, the deal with the visa waiver program is that you can be immediately sent back on the total discretion of the border guard, not that you are placed indefinitely insolitary confinement at your expense. This is a change.
    Depends - don’t know if she was on the visa waiver system

    But if ICE believed she committed a felony (I’m assuming that working on a tourist visa counts under US law) they may arrest her anyway.

    After all they need someone to trade with the Germans.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151
    MattW said:

    I'm not entering the rhetorical knife fight, but I note that the UK is about the only place known to me where Tesla sales went UP in February. :wink:

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/mar/05/teslas-uk-sales-rise-despite-threat-of-backlash-over-elon-musk-political-role

    entirely down to RochdalePioneers no doubt!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,073
    Taz said:

    He’s a free speec absolutist

    Bollocks

    He deletes things on Twix he doesn't like

    He's a white supremacist
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,429
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    I can bat these away all day love.

    "there are plenty of other cars available". Yep. As I say on the channel. Repeatedly. I'm not trying to tell people what to drive. Explicitly - I think they remain the best EV platform out there but I don't tell people who still drive a petrol car (like me) they are wrong or that people who get a car from another brand (like me) are wrong)

    "bollocks to people promoting Teslas on YouTube" - ok. Up to you. Would it upset you to know that your view isn't the same as other people's views? But at least you aren't coming onto the channel by clicking to watch a video then by interacting with it by posting abuse, then engaging with me as I comment back. "How can you promote this" they say as by doing what they are doing they themselves are promoting it.

    "whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself". Don't worry, I'm not and I don't. The key learning from my 4 years as a town councillor with a political bully as Mayor is that you can't be bullied. I simply don't care what the other side think about me, so I'm not going to be annoyed or upset or cowed by them ranting.

    Musk is an absolute dick. But some of the companies he used to be involved in before politics are doing some fantastic stuff. And that hasn't changed just because he's gone full dick crazy.
    I have never seen your Youtube channel, and never will. It's enough to know it's called "Just Get a Tesla", combined with your misleading comments on here. Eg saying promoting Tesla isn't doesn't help Musk because "he's just the CEO and figurehead". I looked that one up too - Tesla makes up a massive chunk of Musk's total wealth.

    I also wouldn't buy or promote a car from a company where Putin is the biggest shareholder, even if I thought the car itself was technologically OK, and even if I stood to make money from doing so.

    And if I did promote such a car, I would fully expect to be condemned for it, even if philosophically "there are no moral absolutes"
    Would you buy a Polestar? Genuine, non-attack question.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,858

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    Good morning

    That is simply harsh and unfair on Tesla owners who purchased their cars long before the Trump- Musk nightmare

    Of course @RochdalePioneers doesn't want the destruction of democracy and European civilisation and I doubt owning or otherwise a Tesla has any relevance, other than the obnoxious and nasty Musk has a little bit less of his obscene wealth

    And I would say, I have no interest in buying an ev either now or in the future and certainly have never owned one, though I have driven one
    Many people have bought Teslas after it was very clear that Musk is a dangerous 'man'. They have zero excuse.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151
    Nigelb said:

    Flattery was always something of a delusion; what Trump wants is complete subservience.

    Donald Trump has 'gone cool' on Britain since King Charles welcomed Zelensky to Sandringham, diplomatic sources in Washington have claimed, - Daily Mail

    Allies of the US President have made clear to UK officials in America that pictures of the King with the Ukranian leader made him feel 'less special' about the monarch's invitation for a state visit to Britain.

    https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1898686677201150174

    I would say he's fucking toddler but that would be a terrible insult to all toddlers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,400
    Taz said:

    Never mind Reform, Lowe and Trump. There's a scandal closer to home.

    barking mad Crufts 2025’s Best in Show winner backlash as favourite is ‘robbed’, claim fans
    The fan favourite of the Best in Show missed out on a podium place

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/33765262/crufts-2025-winner-revealed-best-in-show-history/

    PB's dog for scale correspondent never warned us about this.

    TL;DR yet another space-filler based on cutting and pasting from TwiX which is what passes for journalism nowadays.

    Your PB.com Canine Correspondent did point out from his priveleged position On The Sofa In Front of the Telly that it was a wonderful whippet. A worthy winner.

    Devo would be proud
    They might get no Satisfaction.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    .

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    He's retweeted far-right accounts promoting civil war in the UK. He was reintrointruced to Trump's canpaign by Peter Thiel, an open techno-fascist, who is the kingmaker, and also promoted fascist ideologues like Curtis Yarvin to Vance.

    He was named by his father after a character in a Nazi rocket scientists novel about a benign dictator who took over Mars. I would say the signs are pretty clear.
    He has been ramping Yaxley-Lennon which made me very angry. But he isn't ramping it because he supports that mindset. SYL wants to remove migrants. Musk is in America saying that migration is a good thing (which enrages many MAGA activists).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,400
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    The car is giving the man much of his power. And he is using that power in ways that are, in my view, very bad. I'd hope that was your view as well. People promoting his brands are helping him. You are doing so - and I guess you're making a little money out of it.

    And your comparison of Jenrick with what is going on in America is ludicrous and wrong.

    My point was not about whether it is acceptable to *me*. My point - as I stated above - is that if you are a country or organisation that might annoy Musk for some reason, then any of his services are unreliable. That will be a major drag against the use of those services anywhere outside MAGAland.
    We disagree but that is ok. Yes I'm promoting multiple Musk brands. Do you think Musk cares one way or another? The notion that a consumer boycott will sink him is for the birds - its having an impact on sales, but its not the collapse that some are hoping for. Anyone see the sales numbers in February here? Shows that the bigger drops in a few markets in Europe are not universal which means little impact - especially on a company whose bonkers share price is based on AI and automation hopium rather than reality.

    As for Jenrick, he said that criminal justice was biased against "Christians" and "Straight White Men". We call out dog whistle racism when its MAGA doing it, but don't want to call it out when its the Tories? And you talk about morality?

    This just makes my point. "Morality" talks of absolutes. Right and wrong. I've used that kind of language in the past which was wrong. With very very few exceptions there are no absolutes - only shades of grey. What we have here is one shade of grey addressing another shade of grey and saying "ha, you are grey"
    Well the fact is you use cars and services that are provided by a company whose main shareholder has been discovered to be a facist loving ketamine addicted billionaire.

    You also make videos (for which you earn money and seem to derive benefits from) that promote those products.

    Now it’s up to you as to whether you continue to do so but given your previous posts I suspect an accurate description for you would be hypocrite
    He's a kethead, without question.

    Is he a fascist? Really? What's the evidence of it - and don't say the salute.

    If you actually examine Musk's positions they are often at the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism. Musk is a free speech absolutist. That's an absurd position btw, but fascists don't want free speech, they want to stop free speech. Musk wants industry to be unencumbered by state regulation. Fascism shackles industry to deliver what the state wants. Musk thinks there's lots of penpusher bureaucrats and whole departments that can be done away with. Fascism regulates every aspect of life to the nth degree. Musk wants more migration. MAGA and especially some of the far right parties he has hyped want zero or negative migration.

    "Musk is a fascist" doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny once you drop the emotional response and actually look at it.
    Of course he’s not a fascist. This is bordering on everyone I disagree with it Hitler stuff. It’s like an episode of the Young Ones with Rik calling everyone a ‘fascist’.

    He wants a smaller state not a larger one.

    Less regulation not more.

    He’s a free speec absolutist and disruptor but he’s not going to annexe the Sudetenland.
    Not the Sudentenland, just the Great Lakes and Southern Ontario.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,151

    kamski said:

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    Don't Get a Tesla! There are plenty of other cars available.

    and bollocks to people promoting Teslas on Youtube.

    It's not really complicated. At all. You can twist yourself up in all kinds of mental bretzels and whataboutery so you don't feel so bad about yourself, but don't expect people on here not to call you out on it - and if you don't want anyone to lecture you on morality you're probably posting on the wrong forum!

    Telling people to buy Teslas is fucking stupid unless you actively want the destruction of democracy and European liberal civilisation. Or maybe you just don't care enough about those things.
    Good morning

    That is simply harsh and unfair on Tesla owners who purchased their cars long before the Trump- Musk nightmare

    Of course @RochdalePioneers doesn't want the destruction of democracy and European civilisation and I doubt owning or otherwise a Tesla has any relevance, other than the obnoxious and nasty Musk has a little bit less of his obscene wealth

    And I would say, I have no interest in buying an ev either now or in the future and certainly have never owned one, though I have driven one
    It's not about "Tesla owners who purchased their cars long before the Trump- Musk nightmare". It's about actively telling people now to buy Teslas.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,710

    FPT so I can answer this:

    Horse - you dislike Starlink. We get that. But so far you’ve made a series of strident statements which get rapidly demolished. Terrible latency? Nope. Can’t do meetings? Nope. Slower than 5G? Nope. Everyone is getting FTTP (Stop and Think about the practicalities of that one). Nope. Can’t work on a train. Nope.

    Starlink may turn into a cul-de-sac technology. But here and now it offers genuinely fast and usable connectivity to people who literally have no other options. Where you insist the other options actually do exist and actually are faster and better actually.

    I don’t work in the industry. You appear to do. Which means you know more that I do. But keep posting things that are demonstrably wrong in the real world because you’ve set your mind against it. Why is that? In my industry I start with the facts on the ground and build a narrative to explain them. Not decide on the narrative and be selective and manipulate of the “facts” to prove me right

    Starlink's capabilities don't matter a jot if you are a non-MAGA government, or in a business which in any way competes with any of Musk's. Because you cannot rely on the service.

    And I'd just say I find your constant hyping of Musk's products to be very much against what I thought were your values and morals.
    How am I constantly hyping? Some products, yes. Partially. My latest Just Get A Tesla video slags off "FSD Capability" and describes it as "a con". Am I hyping FSD Capability? I'm saying that Tesla are being outrageous selling this thing which they know doesn't work. Is that me hyping them?

    I've repeatedly poked a stick at autonomous vehicles - I fully expect they to get banned after the first nasty automation crash. I think the robot thing is absurd. I've attacked Neuralink.

    What I don't do is adjust the facts to match what you insist should be "values and morals". Horse laid down a list of things that Starlink cannot do and was factually wrong. Stating that is neither hyping nor not hyping - it is what it is.

    My morality is my morality. When I was younger and more strident I drank the cool-aid where my morality should be everyone's morality. I grew out of that long ago - and had to change party to best reflect that. What I think isn't necessarily what you think. Why do you think that what you think should be inviolate and adopted by others? If I want a lecture on morality I could go to church. Oh year, I stopped doing that as well...
    What's the title of your channel again? Is it "Don't get a Tesla"?

    No?

    And my post commented on the technical merits of Starlink being pointless given the political shenanigans that Musk is performing with it.

    And as for morality and values: wait until Musk and MAGA come after gay people. Or bisexuals. See my point now?
    It's a car. It's not a man.

    Starlink is a service. Should Starlink abruptly get switched off then I would have to revert back to shonky slow options. Are you saying that because of a theoretical event maybe in the future that shonky and slow is my best option now?

    And MAGA are *already* going after anyone who isn't white Christian and straight. So what? Jenrick was foaming on about straight white Christians the other day. If I want to pay attention to homophobia I don't need to bother with MAGA.

    What's your point? Which technologies / companies / political platforms are morally acceptable to you? I converted to Apple a couple of years ago - does that make me liable for the Uighurs too?
    If I boycotted every company that I'm not happy about the ethics of, I'd have to walk around naked, eat grass and drink river water.
    Someone, somewhere is almost certainly getting exploited, no matter where we spend our money.
    I'd advise against drinking river water. Full of sewage dumped by unethical water companies.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,073
    Elon Musk has asked to meet Italy’s President Sergio Mattarella, amid growing doubts in Rome about a potential $1.5bn deal with Starlink, the multi-billionaire’s internet satellite provider.

    Musk wrote on X late on Saturday that it “would be an honour to speak with President Matterella”, in a bid to salvage a deal that has faced opposition as geopolitical turbulence between the US and Europe intensifies.

    Meloni, who has forged a strong personal bond with Musk, said in early January that talks were still at the “preliminary stage”, but defended the necessity of a potential deal saying there was “no public alternative” to meet Italy’s secure communication needs.

    Yet the deal now looks increasingly likely to be a casualty of a transatlantic rift over defence, following US President Donald Trump’s decision to suspend military aid and intelligence sharing with Ukraine. Musk has also repeatedly said on X that the US should leave the Nato security alliance.


    https://www.ft.com/content/ea7e53b8-f831-489d-919c-606149f3af17
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