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Can Sunak and the Tories sink any lower? – politicalbetting.com

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  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    isam said:

    What she was saying, rightly or wrongly, was “Look at the type of knuckleheads that vote UKIP”
    She didn't actually 'say' anything from my memory, other than "Rochester" (which was where she was campaigning?)
  • She didn't actually 'say' anything from my memory, other than "Rochester" (which was where she was campaigning?)
    Posting the picture is saying something.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    You are moving your accusation from breaking the law to breaking wisdom criteria.

    The key is did he break the law, not was he unwise? If we track back to Johnson it would appear he was both.
    I'm not 'moving' - I'm explaining my position as it's been pretty much since the Starmer story broke. Cases can be made for both - however inconvenient it is for you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881
    There is simply no point in talking about anything to do with Trump or Biden on this site - so I shall stop and post a photo and it’s your fault

    In a lifetime of eccentric and unlikely offices this might be one of the best. Sitting on the terrace of a thatched tree-bungalow in the middle of the Tayrona jungle staring down at the distant Caribbean

    Hummingbirds flit about

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    Suspect Forbes is the candidate the unionists fear. Strongly pro independence and pro business. Could mop up a few Tory votes. She needs to handle the same-sex marriage question better but I assume she has figured that out by now.
    She’s certainly the Sc*tch experts favoured candidate.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    So is Khan surging ahead to do with Lee Anderson, the Tories changing the voting system or both?
    SNP nowhere, Useless must explain.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    She’s certainly the Sc*tch experts favoured candidate.
    With all this stuff about scotch experts… where’s the single malt?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    Posting the picture is saying something.
    On the Nike 'flag' - the problem is that although it is shaped like the English flag, it looks nothing like it when coloured like that. It's just an elongated plus symbol; meaningless.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    You just answered your own question. They are commercial entities and are trying to make money by accommodating the latest trends.

    As for the purple England shirt-gate. Isn't that acknowledging the 1966 England strip. Like when the Arse played in their (rather fetching) 2005-6 strip marking their final season at Highbury.

    It’s not the purple shirt that politicians are criticising, but the changed colours of the flag on the collar.



  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881
    kinabalu said:

    Russian efforts to help him electorally are proven fact, aren't they?
    Are they?

    This is a genuine question

    I've realised that my belief that Putin always wants Trump to win is based on me hearing a lot of people say this, rather than seeing actual evidence. That is probably my fault for not looking hard enough. I am hoping you may be able to show me it (I am perfectly willing to believe it: I can see arguments why Putin would favour Trump, I can also see arguments where he might favour Biden)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Dura_Ace said:

    You'd think buying the fucking thing was compulsory the way people are carrying on.
    In fairness, it's rather more than that, isn't it? It's the jersey of the national team in the national sport. The iconography matters. Whether or not one buys the shirt oneself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    With all this stuff about scotch experts… where’s the single malt?
    The single malt*s*, the currently opened ones, are in the cupboard, with the gin.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    TOPPING said:

    Wasn't it the coffees that did for those two women on Primrose Hill?
    The Two Blondes were in Derbyshire I think!
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    I honestly dunno. It seems to me to be one of those received opinions which we have all long accepted (me included), but on analysis I cannot think of immediate evidence

    If you can provide it, then great, I am happy to believe it. But it needs to be evidence not conjecture
    Trump saying he would force Ukraine to end the war is a pretty good piece of evidence.
  • Leon said:

    Are they?

    This is a genuine question

    I've realised that my belief that Putin always wants Trump to win is based on me hearing a lot of people say this, rather than seeing actual evidence. That is probably my fault for not looking hard enough. I am hoping you may be able to show me it (I am perfectly willing to believe it: I can see arguments why Putin would favour Trump, I can also see arguments where he might favour Biden)
    Yes they are. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

    The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee investigation submitted the first in their five-volume 1,313-page report in July 2019. The committee concluded that the January 2017 intelligence community assessment alleging Russian interference was "coherent and well-constructed". The first volume also concluded that the assessment was "proper", learning from analysts that there was "no politically motivated pressure to reach specific conclusions". The final and fifth volume, which was the result of three years of investigations, was released in August 2020,[8] ending one of the United States "highest-profile congressional inquiries".[9][10] The Committee report found that the Russian government had engaged in an "extensive campaign" to sabotage the election in favor of Trump, which included assistance from some of Trump's own advisers.[9]
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    With all this stuff about scotch experts… where’s the single malt?
    I yield to a true Scotch expert (she must be, she’s made a shitload of money out of it), though I suspect she pronounces it ‘Scatch’.
    It’s the SNP’s fault, again!


  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    isam said:

    It’s not the purple shirt that politicians are criticising, but the changed colours of the flag on the collar.



    Isn't that what the flag is referencing?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    She’s certainly the Sc*tch experts favoured candidate.
    Not yours I take it?

    (P.S. I claim not to be a Scotch expert)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,001
    TOPPING said:

    You just answered your own question. They are commercial entities and are trying to make money by accommodating the latest trends.

    As for the purple England shirt-gate. Isn't that acknowledging the 1966 England strip. Like when the Arse played in their (rather fetching) 2005-6 strip marking their final season at Highbury.

    I think the 1966 link has been debunked as bollocks. When rumblings of annoyance started they tried to say that the designer took inspiration from the 1966 squad’s training kit until it was pointed out that that kit was blue with red and white trim not blue, pink and purple and red.

    And frankly when has anyone thought, “you know what’s going to really inspire the team, the fans and drive sales? A tiny reference to a training kit that nobody except the surviving one from the team and twelve fans remember.”
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    isam said:

    Possibly. I buy Nike trainers generally, and them being woke probably won’t put me off. It really annoys me that my bank bangs on about Pride etc but I don’t change bank accounts. The only anti woke thing I ever did in terms of purchasing was to not buy some cat food that had the pride rainbow on it. I just can’t see why commercial entities try to force political opinions on us
    I'm not sure that this storm in the smallest of teacups has anything to do with "woke" at all. As SKS notes the real scandal is the cost of the damn things. Not that I'll be buying one anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    I yield to a true Scotch expert (she must be, she’s made a shitload of money out of it), though I suspect she pronounces it ‘Scatch’.
    It’s the SNP’s fault, again!


    SNP? mid-20th century?!

    But the lady is a fiction writer, apparently, so that explains it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143
    WillG said:

    Trump saying he would force Ukraine to end the war is a pretty good piece of evidence.
    If Biden is not willing to help Ukraine actually win (defined as pushing Russia out of all of Ukraine) then Trump's position is more moral.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    I'm not sure that this storm in the smallest of teacups has anything to do with "woke" at all. As SKS notes the real scandal is the cost of the damn things. Not that I'll be buying one anyway.
    In fairness, aren't you Scottish anyway? :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    boulay said:

    I think the 1966 link has been debunked as bollocks. When rumblings of annoyance started they tried to say that the designer took inspiration from the 1966 squad’s training kit until it was pointed out that that kit was blue with red and white trim not blue, pink and purple and red.

    And frankly when has anyone thought, “you know what’s going to really inspire the team, the fans and drive sales? A tiny reference to a training kit that nobody except the surviving one from the team and twelve fans remember.”
    Just as long as you realise you are Nike's wet dream by contributing to the continued discussion around it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295
    Leon said:

    Are they?

    This is a genuine question

    I've realised that my belief that Putin always wants Trump to win is based on me hearing a lot of people say this, rather than seeing actual evidence. That is probably my fault for not looking hard enough. I am hoping you may be able to show me it (I am perfectly willing to believe it: I can see arguments why Putin would favour Trump, I can also see arguments where he might favour Biden)
    There was an official investigation and report. I'd link it if I was in my study.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,135
    edited March 2024

    If Biden is not willing to help Ukraine actually win (defined as pushing Russia out of all of Ukraine) then Trump's position is more moral.
    Bullshit.

    And you have the disgrace of having a Ukrainian flag avatar while posting such vile nonsense.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I'm not sure that this storm in the smallest of teacups has anything to do with "woke" at all. As SKS notes the real scandal is the cost of the damn things. Not that I'll be buying one anyway.
    Sir Keir also criticises the flag colour change doesn’t he?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    That's a good start. You need to break the bars down into which US President was in office when the territory was occupied.
    :lol:


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,836
    edited March 2024
    Leon said:

    Are they?

    This is a genuine question

    I've realised that my belief that Putin always wants Trump to win is based on me hearing a lot of people say this, rather than seeing actual evidence. That is probably my fault for not looking hard enough. I am hoping you may be able to show me it (I am perfectly willing to believe it: I can see arguments why Putin would favour Trump, I can also see arguments where he might favour Biden)
    What is true is the Russians sowed discord - particularly on Twitter - ahead of the 2016 election. They created fake news stories, and then they promoted them. So, they created stories about police brutality and made sure that African Americans saw them. And they created stories about an invasion on the Southern border and promoted them to those concerned about immigration.

    Their goal is to make the US less united. It's why they boosted Brexit pre-the referendum, and the boosted FBPE (or whatever it was) afterwards. The goal - as always - is disunity.

    We know this because there have been a number of excellent investigative pieces that involved interviews with people working in troll farms.

    Now, did the troll farms specifically promote Trump over Clinton? Probably. Putin knew that Trump was hostile to NATO and to the EU in general, and that fitted with Russian strategic goals.

    Edit to add:
    We also know that Trump and Putin met with no interpreters or other diplomatic staff present and which ensured to notes or minutes were kept, which is an extraordinary breech of diplomatic protocol.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    Yes they are. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

    The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee investigation submitted the first in their five-volume 1,313-page report in July 2019. The committee concluded that the January 2017 intelligence community assessment alleging Russian interference was "coherent and well-constructed". The first volume also concluded that the assessment was "proper", learning from analysts that there was "no politically motivated pressure to reach specific conclusions". The final and fifth volume, which was the result of three years of investigations, was released in August 2020,[8] ending one of the United States "highest-profile congressional inquiries".[9][10] The Committee report found that the Russian government had engaged in an "extensive campaign" to sabotage the election in favor of Trump, which included assistance from some of Trump's own advisers.[9]
    Fair enough, and thankyou. That looks pretty compelling

    My sense is that Putin doesn't so much favour any particular politicians or causes in the west, rather he wants to sow division and disunity any way he can, especially on issues like race. Hence his support for Brexit AND Scottish indy

    Anything that fragments the west is good
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    If Biden is not willing to help Ukraine actually win (defined as pushing Russia out of all of Ukraine) then Trump's position is more moral.
    Complete drivel. Biden should be more aggressive, but that isn't anywhere close to completely screwing Ukraine entirely. And Trump is on record as withholding aid for Ukraine and the Republicans have been blocking the latest aid bill in Congress.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,925

    She didn't actually 'say' anything from my memory, other than "Rochester" (which was where she was campaigning?)
    I think she labelled the picture 'Out and about in Rochester' or some such. The British Right must have been going through one of its 'We luv the working class' phases at the time (in between slamming them as ugly, obese benefit scroungers for whom a bit of sterilization wouldn't go amiss).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143

    Bullshit.

    And you have the disgrace of having a Ukrainian flag avatar while posting such vile nonsense.
    How can you defend a policy of prolonging the war while ruling out a strategy to actually win it?

    The Biden administration, like Obama before him, pinned its hopes on changing Putin's 'calculus' by making the war too costly so that he would give up. It's been an utter failure and the price has been paid in Ukrainian lives.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,001
    TOPPING said:

    Just as long as you realise you are Nike's wet dream by contributing to the continued discussion around it.
    I am not their wet dream, I would be their wet dream if I was posting about it and then went and bought the shirt (never have and never will buy and England football shirt). I am more of a useful idiot by increasing their publicity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881
    edited March 2024
    rcs1000 said:

    What is true is the Russians sowed discord - particularly on Twitter - ahead of the 2016 election. They created fake news stories, and then they promoted them. So, they created stories about police brutality and made sure that African Americans saw them. And they created stories about an invasion on the Southern border and promoted them to those concerned about immigration.

    Their goal is to make the US less united. It's why they boosted Brexit pre-the referendum, and the boosted FBPE (or whatever it was) afterwards. The goal - as always - is disunity.

    We know this because there have been a number of excellent investigative pieces that involved interviews with people working in troll farms.

    Now, did the troll farms specifically promote Trump over Clinton? Probably. Putin knew that Trump was hostile to NATO and to the EU in general, and that fitted with Russian strategic goals.

    Edit to add:
    We also know that Trump and Putin met with no interpreters or other diplomatic staff present and which ensured to notes or minutes were kept, which is an extraordinary breech of diplomatic protocol.
    Yes, I have just posted, saying almost exactly that!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    What do you do when the court's only sanction - to imprison and fine someone for contempt of court - is entirely ineffective, because the individual in question quite likes the idea of being a martyr?

    This is the problem the Irish courts are grappling with, having imprisoned Enoch Burke for several months, at considerable cost and little effect.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0322/1439420-enoch-burke/
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    isam said:

    Sir Keir also criticises the flag colour change doesn’t he?
    Yes, he says why change it, and then points out how expensive they are. I agree there's no reason to change it but I do struggle to give two shits about it either way and I also struggle to see anything "woke" in it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,563
    edited March 2024

    I'm not 'moving' - I'm explaining my position as it's been pretty much since the Starmer story broke. Cases can be made for both - however inconvenient it is for you.
    If Starmer broke the rules he should have gone, but according to Durham Constabulary after investigation they decided he didn't break the rules. The Met later explained that they didn't investigate Johnson's presence at parties from which they prosecuted minions. Johnson was only innocent by dint of not being investigated.

    But your comparison of Beergate and Partygate as an equal breach is a nonsense. It's like you complaining how unfair it is my kitten has done a whoopsie in your flower bed whilst your two dozen pack-hounds are crapping all over my lawn.
  • How can you defend a policy of prolonging the war while ruling out a strategy to actually win it?

    The Biden administration, like Obama before him, pinned its hopes on changing Putin's 'calculus' by making the war too costly so that he would give up. It's been an utter failure and the price has been paid in Ukrainian lives.
    Biden has been supporting more aid to Ukraine, it's the Republicans in Congress who have been blocking it, at Trump's urging.

    And as long as Ukraine is willing to fight then supporting them is more moral than not supporting them.

    Not supporting them will lead to their defeat. The war continuing is more moral than their defeat.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,836
    WillG said:

    Complete drivel. Biden should be more aggressive, but that isn't anywhere close to completely screwing Ukraine entirely. And Trump is on record as withholding aid for Ukraine and the Republicans have been blocking the latest aid bill in Congress.
    Quite: this is the key point.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    She didn't actually 'say' anything from my memory, other than "Rochester" (which was where she was campaigning?)
    Maybe, but the inference was ‘no wonder this is going to be a UKIP win when people like this live here’ it would be quite strange to not be able to see that
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    A

    In fairness, aren't you Scottish anyway? :)
    Don’t you mean “aren’t you Scotch, anyway?”
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    warning to punters on anything anywhere . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Kentucky’s loss to unheralded Oakland crushes millions of March Madness brackets

    [University of} Kentucky’s [men's basketball team's] 80-76 loss to Oakland [University, of Michigan] on Thursday night didn’t just end a bunch of perfect brackets. It all but ruined many when it comes to the big picture.

    The third-seeded Wildcats were picked in 95% of brackets in the ESPN Tournament Challenge to beat the 14th-seeded Golden Grizzlies. What’s more, 74.21% had Kentucky making the Sweet 16, 28.84% reaching the Final Four and 6.5% winning the national championship. . . .

    SSI - Note that UK is long-standing, famous basketball power in US collegiate athletics; further note that Kentucky is one of THE top basket-ball states in the US (along with Indiana and North Carolina).

    Also note that the NCAA Division 1 men's basketball tournament - aka "March Madness" is one of the premier sporting AND betting events in the USA.

    As noted above, most folks who filled out a March Madness bracket, predicting which teams will win specific games and thus moving on to next stage, assumed that UK Wildcats were a cinch to win their first round game. Opps!

    Should also be noted, that one of the great charms of March Madness is stunning upsets such as this one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    boulay said:

    I am not their wet dream, I would be their wet dream if I was posting about it and then went and bought the shirt (never have and never will buy and England football shirt). I am more of a useful idiot by increasing their publicity.
    Never understood buying team strip. Especially the stuff loaded with adverts. Shouldn’t they pay people a percentage to wear that?

    That being said, bought some for god-children. Cost about as much as the annual subs for joining a rowing club.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143

    Biden has been supporting more aid to Ukraine, it's the Republicans in Congress who have been blocking it, at Trump's urging.

    And as long as Ukraine is willing to fight then supporting them is more moral than not supporting them.

    Not supporting them will lead to their defeat. The war continuing is more moral than their defeat.
    He's been supporting a policy of insufficient military aid with strings attached to how it is used. It is not a policy designed to bring victory and never has been.

    He even redirected ammunition to Israel that had been promised to Ukraine.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 756

    10% of people wasting their vote on the Liberal who cannot win. Does Joe Public realise this is now FPP?
    You might just as well comment on the 27% of people wasting their vote on the Conservative, who also cannot win. The joys of FPTP.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    I'm not sure that this storm in the smallest of teacups has anything to do with "woke" at all. As SKS notes the real scandal is the cost of the damn things. Not that I'll be buying one anyway.
    In fairness, aren't you Scottish anyway? :)
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907
    A noble and courageous gesture here.

    Women shave their heads in front of parliament for Gaza.

    https://x.com/onlinepaleng/status/1770725552753623295?s=61
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    If Starmer broke the rules he should have gone, but according to Durham Constabulary after investigation they decided he didn't break the rules. The Met later explained that they didn't investigate Johnson's presence at parties from which they prosecuted minions. Johnson was only innocent by dint of not being investigated.

    But your comparison of Beergate and Partygate as an equal breach is a nonsense. It's like you complaining how unfair it is my kitten has done a whoopsie in your flower bed whilst your two dozen pack-hounds are crapping all over my lawn.
    I refer you to my previous comment re. the police. But then you probably felt plebgate was fair as it was one of your hated Tories who was victim...

    Of course the comparison is not ridiculous; and as a state, I'd argue that Currygate was worse in practice, for the reasons I've given (and you ignore).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881
    I'm gonna do some actual WORK while I fight off the hummingbirds, so this is my final thought on Brazengate


    Whether it's Biden OR Trump, America is proving itself unreliable, isolationist and supremely self interested. Of course America has always acted in its own interest but in the past it was also so powerful it was still a vital ally, a mighty but half interested America was better than no America at all

    This is changing as relative American power dwindles, and is worsened by the likes of Biden and Trump (or maybe they are just themselves caught in the logic of American decline)

    Either way, I agree with @TimS. Europe must unite to defend itself. I speak as a Leaver, but this is way more important than trading alliances and customs unions. We can't rely on the USA any more so if Europe wants to be free and prosperous then we will have to do it for ourselves. We need to tool up and man the battlements

    Probably a few core countries should unite around one nuclear deterrent
  • PJHPJH Posts: 756
    PJH said:

    You might just as well comment on the 27% of people wasting their vote on the Conservative, who also cannot win. The joys of FPTP.
    Of course if Khan gets 51% it doesn't matter what the system is, whether FTPT, AV or anything in between, so the 10% LD, 8% Green and the others are entirely logical.
  • How on earth can a ceasefire take place when Russia and China combine to vote against the US resolution for a sustainable ceasefire

    The world as Sky reports is ' fractured'
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    How on earth can a ceasefire take place when Russia and China combine to vote against the US resolution for a sustainable ceasefire

    The world as Sky reports is ' fractured'

    The US resolution did NOT call for a sustained ceasefire.
  • The US resolution did NOT call for a sustained ceasefire.
    This is the resolution

    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-hamas-latest-middle-east-live-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    This is the resolution

    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-hamas-latest-middle-east-live-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800
    from what I've skimmed on the BBC, it seems that Russia and China objected to a ceasefire being linked to the release of the hostages.

    Which makes it seem like they want Israel to surrender.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,049

    How on earth can a ceasefire take place when Russia and China combine to vote against the US resolution for a sustainable ceasefire

    The world as Sky reports is ' fractured'

    Then again, it's not clear that a ceasefire would happen even if the UN passed a resolution. Unfortunately.

    What it does do is psychological- does the Israeli government really want to find itself on the same side as Russia and China. It's all a bit "Bibi, are we the baddies?"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    This is the resolution

    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-hamas-latest-middle-east-live-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800
    Think of all the other Gaza resolutions the UN tabled that the USA vetoed.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,049
    Meanwhile,

    1/ It's been a grim week for the Government. After losing in the Lords with its Rwanda Bill, it’s dealt a further blow as Labour’s lead in the polls rises by five to 23.

    🔴 Lab 47% (+4)
    🔵 Con 24% (-1)
    ⚪ Ref 11% (-1)
    🟠 LD 9% (NC)
    🟢 Green 6% (NC)
    🟡 SNP 2% (NC)


    https://twitter.com/wethinkpolling/status/1771192628324769888

    Obviously, this can carry on for months, and probably will. But it's not going to carry on well, is it?
  • from what I've skimmed on the BBC, it seems that Russia and China objected to a ceasefire being linked to the release of the hostages.

    Which makes it seem like they want Israel to surrender.
    No - they want the fighting to continue because it distracts folks from what they are doing elsewhere.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168

    Then again, it's not clear that a ceasefire would happen even if the UN passed a resolution. Unfortunately.

    What it does do is psychological- does the Israeli government really want to find itself on the same side as Russia and China. It's all a bit "Bibi, are we the baddies?"
    15 times more people killed by Israel in the last 6 months than Hamas killed in the last 16 YEARS (even including 7/10).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    The US resolution did NOT call for a sustained ceasefire.
    Actually, it did:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/us-un-ceasefire-gaza
    ...The new version of the draft resolution circulated on Thursday morning “determines the imperative of an immediate and sustained ceasefire to protect civilians on all sides, allow for the delivery of essential humanitarian assistance, and alleviate humanitarian suffering, and towards that end unequivocally supports ongoing international diplomatic efforts to secure such a ceasefire in connection with the release of all remaining hostages”...

    You can argue that it's hedged with conditions - which it is - but it's quite a shift in U.S. policy and should not have been vetoed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961
    isam said:
    And potentially a leader who'll look good (and very French) in it.


  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    As opposed to a policy of no military aid at all?
    Reckon that Putin sends his F-Troop of (apparently) beginner bots to invest PB, as part of their training?

    Certainly he's already got sufficient puppeteers already on her, including allegedly/ostensibly pro-UKR Trumpists.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,563
    edited March 2024

    I refer you to my previous comment re. the police. But then you probably felt plebgate was fair as it was one of your hated Tories who was victim...

    Of course the comparison is not ridiculous; and as a state, I'd argue that Currygate was worse in practice, for the reasons I've given (and you ignore).
    I find Andrew Mitchell a particularly agreeable one- nation Tory, so of course if the police lied, as was proven they were wrong and he was guilty of nothing. I also mentioned earlier that I believe Sunak's prosecution was a travesty. So other than my partisan despising of the venal Johnson I have been rather balanced I believe.

    Starmer's travails were confected (by Ivo Delingpole and Ric Holden) nonsense almost a year and then six months after Partygate 1 and 2. The rules had changed. Johnson also wrote the rules he wilfully ignored. Allegra Stratten joked about the absurdity of the situation, oh and let's not forget Johnson's defence was he couldn't discriminate between a work event and a party with party poppers, balloons, a karaoke machine and suitcases full of wines and spirits.

    I don't wish to be rude, but perhaps you need training in how to avoid being taken in by charlatans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    from what I've skimmed on the BBC, it seems that Russia and China objected to a ceasefire being linked to the release of the hostages.

    Which makes it seem like they want Israel to surrender.
    They vetoed it because it's a US resolution, and they are arses who don't give a damn about either Israel or the Palestinians.

    As far as I can tell.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    rcs1000 said:

    As opposed to a policy of no military aid at all?
    William argues that abandoning Ukraine to Putin's mercies - against their express wishes - is the moral thing to do.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    I genuinely like the England one a lot more. Flaggate is a nonsense.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143

    Reckon that Putin sends his F-Troop of (apparently) beginner bots to invest PB, as part of their training?

    Certainly he's already got sufficient puppeteers already on her, including allegedly/ostensibly pro-UKR Trumpists.
    What do you think about Biden redirecting ammunition to Israel that had been designated for Ukraine? You're curiously silent on Israel.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    @martinboon

    In the radical VI alternative #Wisdom Index from @DeltapollUK the Tories are expected to win 31% in #GE2024

    Con 31%
    Labour 43%
    LibDems 13%
    Others 13%
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    He's been supporting a policy of insufficient military aid with strings attached to how it is used. It is not a policy designed to bring victory and never has been.

    He even redirected ammunition to Israel that had been promised to Ukraine.
    Which is still billions more aid than Trump.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168
    Nigelb said:

    Actually, it did:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/us-un-ceasefire-gaza
    ...The new version of the draft resolution circulated on Thursday morning “determines the imperative of an immediate and sustained ceasefire to protect civilians on all sides, allow for the delivery of essential humanitarian assistance, and alleviate humanitarian suffering, and towards that end unequivocally supports ongoing international diplomatic efforts to secure such a ceasefire in connection with the release of all remaining hostages”...

    You can argue that it's hedged with conditions - which it is - but it's quite a shift in U.S. policy and should not have been vetoed.
    Oh, well! Think of ALL the previous Gaza resolutions tabled at the UN that the USA DID veto!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    And potentially a leader who'll look good (and very French) in it.


    We have an English equivalent

    https://x.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1770879259432681651?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Then again, it's not clear that a ceasefire would happen even if the UN passed a resolution. Unfortunately.

    What it does do is psychological- does the Israeli government really want to find itself on the same side as Russia and China. It's all a bit "Bibi, are we the baddies?"
    Israel wasn't in favour of the US putting the resolution on the table in the first place. They apparently said they "could live with it".

    In any event, it was dead on arrival, because it called for the immediate release of the hostages. Inevitably, all sorts of people - including those who are supposedly well-meaning - ignore that bit, as they did when the ICJ called for it to happen in January.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    edited March 2024
    On sinking any lower.



  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    15 times more people killed by Israel in the last 6 months than Hamas killed in the last 16 YEARS (even including 7/10).
    Are you including all the LGBT Gazans Hamas have thrown off rooftops in that time, or do you not count them as people?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,143
    WillG said:

    Which is still billions more aid than Trump.
    You're missing the point. If it's only enough to prolong the war but not to win it, what good does it do other than to help Russia become more battle-hardened while modernising its military-industrial complex, and ensuring that a lot of Ukrainians die in the process?
  • He's been supporting a policy of insufficient military aid with strings attached to how it is used. It is not a policy designed to bring victory and never has been.

    He even redirected ammunition to Israel that had been promised to Ukraine.
    If that's insufficient then you think less than insufficient is an improvement?

    You've gone full Saturday morning troll now. "Surrender is moral to save Ukrainian lives" is as offensive and wrong when you say it as when DJ21 or any other troll does.
  • NEW THREAD

  • You're missing the point. If it's only enough to prolong the war but not to win it, what good does it do other than to help Russia become more battle-hardened while modernising its military-industrial complex, and ensuring that a lot of Ukrainians die in the process?
    Prolonging the war by supporting Ukraine > surrender and letting Ukraine lose.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,204
    edited March 2024
    On topic: To me, the most interesting finding in that table is that only one politician, Andy Burnham, has a positive favorability rating. Which, sadly, reminds me of similar findings from the US about our national politicians.

    In contrast, almost all US state governors have positive approval ratings, as this 2023 article shows: https://www.multistate.us/insider/2023/8/4/decoding-2023-gubernatorial-approval-ratings (There is a later Morning Consult study, behind their pay wall. I don't think it shows any great changes.)

    So I conclude, tentatively, that Burnham may be doing that well because he, like those governors, is not on the national stage.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907

    NEW THREAD

    Didn’t show up !!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,168
    Endillion said:

    Are you including all the LGBT Gazans Hamas have thrown off rooftops in that time, or do you not count them as people?
    Of course I am, but the FACT remains, Israel have still murdered TENS of THOUSANDs more people than Hamas have since 2008 (per the figures I have to hand). Hopefully you consider Gazans as people too.

    "Pre-war" 24th January 2008 to 6th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 6,337
    Israelis dead 310

    Since 7th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 31,988
    Israelis dead 1,485
  • Of course I am, but the FACT remains, Israel have still murdered TENS of THOUSANDs more people than Hamas have since 2008 (per the figures I have to hand). Hopefully you consider Gazans as people too.

    "Pre-war" 24th January 2008 to 6th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 6,337
    Israelis dead 310

    Since 7th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 31,988
    Israelis dead 1,485
    You need to learn what the word murder means.

    Casualties of war aren't murdered.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    Taz said:

    Didn’t show up !!
    Give him time to bag the first. ;)
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Of course I am, but the FACT remains, Israel have still murdered TENS of THOUSANDs more people than Hamas have since 2008 (per the figures I have to hand). Hopefully you consider Gazans as people too.

    "Pre-war" 24th January 2008 to 6th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 6,337
    Israelis dead 310

    Since 7th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 31,988
    Israelis dead 1,485
    The correct answer was "no", then.

    6,337 obviously does not include Palestinians murdered by their own leadership.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,204
    Some of you will be jealous, but I think that current American political scandals are more entertaining that the current UK scandals.

    The Loser is the obvious example, but the problems of this Democratic senator from New Jersey might run a distant second: "In 2015, Menendez was indicted on federal corruption charges; the jury was unable to reach a verdict, and the charges were dropped in 2018. In April 2018, the United States Senate Select Committee on Ethics "severely admonished" Menendez for accepting gifts from donor Salomon Melgen without obtaining committee approval, for failing to disclose certain gifts, and for using his position as a senator to advance Melgen's interests.

    In September 2023, Menendez was again indicted on federal corruption charges that he aided and provided sensitive information to the government of Egypt.[2][3] He stepped down as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, but refused to resign from the Senate and repeatedly denied any wrongdoing, despite calls to resign from numerous state and congressional Democrats, including 30 of his Senate colleagues. In an October 2023 indictment, Menendez was formally charged with conspiracy to act as a foreign agent of the Egyptian government;[4] a superseding indictment in January 2024 also accused Menendez of working for the government of Qatar."
    (Links omitted.)
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Menendez

    Among other things, the senator is accused of accepting cars, cash, and, in an old-fashioned touch, gold bars.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907
    RobD said:

    Give him time to bag the first. ;)
    😂😂😂😂😂
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,632

    On topic: To me, the most interesting finding in that table is that only one politician, Andy Burnham, has a positive favorability rating. Which, sadly, reminds me of similar findings from the US about our national politicians.

    In contrast, almost all US state governors have positive approval ratings, as this 2023 article shows: https://www.multistate.us/insider/2023/8/4/decoding-2023-gubernatorial-approval-ratings (There is a later Morning Consult study, behind their pay wall. I don't think it shows any great changes.)

    So I conclude, tentatively, that Burnham may be doing that well because he, like those governors, is not on the national stage.

    I'd also add:
    He has no real opposition locally.
    He tries, with some success, not to be too tribal.
    His patch - Greater Manchester - is doing rather better than the country as a whole.
    He makes a big thing of being proud to be Mancunian, and talks up Greater Mamchester at every opportunity. National politicians don't really seem to do that (Boris did.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    I find Andrew Mitchell a particularly agreeable one- nation Tory, so of course if the police lied, as was proven they were wrong and he was guilty of nothing. I also mentioned earlier that I believe Sunak's prosecution was a travesty. So other than my partisan despising of the venal Johnson I have been rather balanced I believe.

    Starmer's travails were confected (by Ivo Delingpole and Ric Holden) nonsense almost a year and then six months after Partygate 1 and 2. The rules had changed. Johnson also wrote the rules he wilfully ignored. Allegra Stratten joked about the absurdity of the situation, oh and let's not forget Johnson's defence was he couldn't discriminate between a work event and a party with party poppers, balloons, a karaoke machine and suitcases full of wines and spirits.

    I don't wish to be rude, but perhaps you need training in how to avoid being taken in by charlatans.
    You say you don't mean to be rude, whilst being rude. I might suggest that you take your own 'advice'.

    Also, you fail to address my points.

    As for Mitchell, there's no 'of course, if the police lied'. They lied. It was a travesty of justice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,822
    edited March 2024
    Trump gets his way on taking Truth Social public:

    https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trumps-social-media-company-to-go-public-potentially-netting-him-3bn-13099909

    Probably too late to rescue him in his fraud case.

    Also, there is some question about whether he can be involved with its management given Engoron's ruling.
  • Never understood buying team strip. Especially the stuff loaded with adverts. Shouldn’t they pay people a percentage to wear that?

    That being said, bought some for god-children. Cost about as much as the annual subs for joining a rowing club.
    Spoilt kids who are bought the full kit, as opposed to just a football top, risk being called FKWs (Full Kit Wankers).
  • Of course I am, but the FACT remains, Israel have still murdered TENS of THOUSANDs more people than Hamas have since 2008 (per the figures I have to hand). Hopefully you consider Gazans as people too.

    "Pre-war" 24th January 2008 to 6th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 6,337
    Israelis dead 310

    Since 7th Oct 2023:

    Palestinians dead 31,988
    Israelis dead 1,485
    Your naivety is staggering,. Do you honestly think for a minute if the "scoreboard" was reversed, Hamas would stop?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,137
    TimS said:

    I assume we've done last night's council byelections already?

    But just in case, they were:

    Lincolnshire: Tory hold but with huge churn - Con down 27%, Lab down 30%, Lincs independents and Lib Dems both contesting for first time and getting high 20s.

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770962886271123545?s=20

    Cambridgeshire: Lib Dem gain off Con. But muddied by a new independent candidate who scored 27.3%. Lab down 7%.

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770958839891779741?s=20

    Flintshire: Lab gain off Con. Another one complicated this time by a departing independent, and the Lib Dems standing and getting 12.8%

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770958317235372119?s=20

    Not sure the 4th (which was an IND defence) has reported yet.

    These continue to show a familiar pattern: Conservatives dropping just about everywhere, Lib Dems outperforming national polls and Labour underperforming national polls.

    TimS said:

    I assume we've done last night's council byelections already?

    But just in case, they were:

    Lincolnshire: Tory hold but with huge churn - Con down 27%, Lab down 30%, Lincs independents and Lib Dems both contesting for first time and getting high 20s.

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770962886271123545?s=20

    Cambridgeshire: Lib Dem gain off Con. But muddied by a new independent candidate who scored 27.3%. Lab down 7%.

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770958839891779741?s=20

    Flintshire: Lab gain off Con. Another one complicated this time by a departing independent, and the Lib Dems standing and getting 12.8%

    https://x.com/BritainElects/status/1770958317235372119?s=20

    Not sure the 4th (which was an IND defence) has reported yet.

    These continue to show a familiar pattern: Conservatives dropping just about everywhere, Lib Dems outperforming national polls and Labour underperforming national polls.

    Knowsley was an Ind hold.
This discussion has been closed.