The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
What you say about me is untrue. If you had any honour you would withdraw that remark.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
Many of the peace groups seem to cross the divide, which does make a certain sense when you think about it, but there are certainly peace groups with Palestinian origins.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
The football supporter meme sometimes posited on here seems fairly apposite. As a mere carper from the sidelines it seems to me that one set of supporters on PB is stridently louder and more enamoured with the sound of their own voices than the other.
In the context of a discussion board, what exactly does that mean?
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
My first reaction to the twin towers was hoping everyone inside would get out safely.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed instantly and it became a human tragedy. Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that hasn't helped
That says more about you.
It is my observation yes. It's not how I thought if you are talking about the twin towers. Perhaps you don't remember the cheering Question Time audience?
The government should absolutely block this, the research is inevitably going to be used by the CCP and our scientific resources should not be used to aid the CCP in the continued oppression of China.
By coincidence, I was talking to somebody who has received funding from Huawei last week. It was very interesting conversation. And I absolutely agree with your stance.
I have a Xiaomi phone. There is precisely nothing that the Chinese Government/CCP doesn't know about me.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
Apart from anything else it looked like a freak accident until the second plane hit.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
Go down that rabbit hole and it leads to collective punishment, terrorist slaughter, and eventually war crimes and even genocide. Including the fate of the young German woman.
The government should absolutely block this, the research is inevitably going to be used by the CCP and our scientific resources should not be used to aid the CCP in the continued oppression of China.
By coincidence, I was talking to somebody who has received funding from Huawei last week. It was very interesting conversation. And I absolutely agree with your stance.
I have a Xiaomi phone. There is precisely nothing that the Chinese Government/CCP doesn't know about me.
One thing Trumpster got right was about TikTok, but because he raised the issue it got dismissed. Now the likes of the company behind Temu have found to inject similar spyware capabilities into their apps. But nobody cares because they can watch people do stupid dances and buy knock off goods for 99p.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
Watch out, the slighted northerners will be coming to get you
You do have some time to prepare, though, due to slow running trains and capacity issues.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed instantly and it became a human tragedy. Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that hasn't helped
That says more about you.
It is my observation yes. It's not how I thought if you are talking about the twin towers. Perhaps you don't remember the cheering Question Time audience?
I think it was the first episode I ever watched. It's on youtube (at least, some of it is):
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
Go down that rabbit hole and it leads to collective punishment, terrorist slaughter, and eventually war crimes and even genocide. Including the fate of the young German woman.
It's not a rabbit hole. It's how democracies function. I am complicit. I am not an island ploughing my own furrow (there's a few metaphors for you). I am part of the country which voted and votes for stuff so of course I am complicit when that country does stuff.
And one man's collective punishment is another's bombing raid on Dresden.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
I remember one thing that set me apart from a lot of other Western students in Middle Eastern studies was my being German. Not because it provided me with some unique insight, but because people across the region would regularly come up to me and congratulate me on the Holocaust.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans".
And since you bring up 9/11: you seem to have forgotten that the US's response was to invade Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands of people, including tens of thousands of civilians, and turn the whole country upside down for decades to come. What's the difference?
The US withdrawing from NATO would be an absolute catastrophe for American, as well as European, security.
It would remove about 80% of the West's military capability at a stroke and lead all sorts of malign actors to instantly probe and test the (now exposed) European countries. Our security situation would get markedly worse very very quickly.
This would also affect the US too as it would undermine the international rules based order, and inhibit their ability to trade, and that'd soon affect their economic situation and freedom of their citizens too.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
Shocking that supporters of Netanyahu United are straying from the Bibi team talk, that the IDF are only targeting Hamas and not the Palestine people. Or possibly their admitting that that’s all tap-on-the-side of-nose bullshit.
The US withdrawing from NATO would be an absolute catastrophe for American, as well as European, security.
It would remove about 80% of the West's military capability at a stroke and lead all sorts of malign actors to instantly probe and test the (now exposed) European countries. Our security situation would get markedly worse very very quickly.
This would also affect the US too as it would undermine the international rules based order, and inhibit their ability to trade, and that'd soon affect their economic situation and freedom of their citizens too.
Freeloaders are infuriating, but the US still does well, financially, out of the existence of NATO (and its network of alliances generally).
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
I understand that it was a (bare) plurality. I also understand that elections since that time have there been none.
But Hamas is the government of Gaza. Israel believes that October 7th was an act of war by the government of Gaza. And hence is responding.
Throughout history there have been the innocents. Most notably, of course, in Germany during WWII. But when a government commits what is believed to be an act of war then the response must be expected.
The US withdrawing from NATO would be an absolute catastrophe for American, as well as European, security.
It would remove about 80% of the West's military capability at a stroke and lead all sorts of malign actors to instantly probe and test the (now exposed) European countries. Our security situation would get markedly worse very very quickly.
This would also affect the US too as it would undermine the international rules based order, and inhibit their ability to trade, and that'd soon affect their economic situation and freedom of their citizens too.
NATO was set up when the main superpower rivalling the US was Russia via the USSR, now as Ukraine has shown Russia is but a shadow of its former shelf though still Europe's main military threat. China is now the main superpower rival to the US and NATO is largely irrelevant to that having no member states from East Asia or Oceania. Counter terrorism. cyber security issues etc are better dealt with by Five Eyes, GCHQ etc than NATO.
On trade Trump is of course protectionist and pro tariff, not pro free trade, anyway
There's an appreciable minority of voters who have an intense loathing of the West, and it's probable that a lot of them will vote Green, or TUSC, or abstain, rather than vote Labour. But, Labour does not need them, in order to win.
76% of the voters support a ceasefire, but it's clear that there are very different ideas about what constitutes a ceasefire. For some people, it means a ceasefire on both sides, and returning the hostages. For others, it means unilateral action by Israel.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
I understand that it was a (bare) plurality. I also understand that elections since that time have there been none.
But Hamas is the government of Gaza. Israel believes that October 7th was an act of war by the government of Gaza. And hence is responding.
Throughout history there have been the innocents. Most notably, of course, in Germany during WWII. But when a government commits what is believed to be an act of war then the response must be expected.
Of course there has to be a response. Hamas has to be neutered if not eliminated.
Turning off water and electricity will not harm Hamas, sheltering in 500km of tunnels with the hostages. It will only harm ordinary citizens. Carpet bombing hardly degrades the tunnels but it kills civilians. Allowing aid in, suitably examined and administered by the UN does not help Hamas but saves lives.
I don't know the answer. Go for the leadership in Qatar? Penetrate and flood/gas the tunnels (but what about the hostages?) There needs to be a response. It could have been even worse without US mediation. But the current response is counter productive and may even further Hamas's objective. I don't know the answer. Much brighter people than me will be working on it.
There's an appreciable minority of voters who have an intense loathing of the West, and it's probable that a lot of them will vote Green, or TUSC, or abstain, rather than vote Labour. But, Labour does not need them, in order to win.
76% of the voters support a ceasefire, but it's clear that there are very different ideas about what constitutes a ceasefire. For some people, it means a ceasefire on both sides, and returning the hostages. For others, it means unilateral action by Israel.
It especially doesn't need them to win under FPTP as most of them live in inner city or university town safe Labour seats
Europe and Britain need to be making plans now for the disappearance of NATO or, more accurately, the US's withdrawal from NATO, if Trump wins next year.
I do wonder if we should be working on expanding NATO to include countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. Would they want to join? There are numerous geopolitical factors at play here.
Why? NATO minus US can't project power, in a meaningful and enduring sense, to Australasia and they can't project power to Europe. It would be an alliance of countries that can't support each other.
Define support - 10,000 artillery shells by Tuesday? A shared LEO constellation?
I would suspect that if the US goes isolationist, the response will include increasing capabilities to try and bridge the gaps.
Already started, in a small way. Various European countries are restarting production (eg 155mm shells) that's been dormant for years. And the EU's desire for satellite systems independent of the US doesn't seem quite the folly it did.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans".
And since you bring up 9/11: you seem to have forgotten that the US's response was to invade Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands of people, including tens of thousands of civilians, and turn the whole country upside down for decades to come. What's the difference?
President Biden made that same point, urging Israel not to follow America's mistakes.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed instantly and it became a human tragedy. Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that hasn't helped
That says more about you.
It is my observation yes. It's not how I thought if you are talking about the twin towers. Perhaps you don't remember the cheering Question Time audience?
I think it was the first episode I ever watched. It's on youtube (at least, some of it is):
EDIT: Yasmin Alibhai Brown telling Americans how much people hate them.
Thank you. I thought most people would remember it. Perhaps Urquart was too young? My American producer's son-in-law worked on the 105th floor and I heard of his death the next day. It was unbelievably moving. I had been working with him just two weeks before. I wrote 'Sandy. I haven't got the words...." and he wrote back 'Roger. Sometimes there are no words'
NATO was set up when the main superpower rivalling the US was Russia via the USSR, now as Ukraine has shown Russia is but a shadow of its former shelf though still Europe's main military threat. China is now the main superpower rival to the US and NATO is largely irrelevant to that having no member states from East Asia or Oceania. Counter terrorism. cyber security issues etc are better dealt with by Five Eyes, GCHQ etc than NATO.
Europe traded strategic autonomy for subsidised defence inside NATO which still makes a lot of sense, on some level, for them. The arrangement no longer makes any sense for the US.
Being inside NATO is now actively contrary to US interests as it diverts resources from the Pacific. Russia can pose zero conventional threat to anyone except the loudmouth Baltics and their security should be the EU's problem.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
It has always been the practice of bad faith actors and the ignorant.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed instantly and it became a human tragedy. Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that hasn't helped
That says more about you.
It is my observation yes. It's not how I thought if you are talking about the twin towers. Perhaps you don't remember the cheering Question Time audience?
I think it was the first episode I ever watched. It's on youtube (at least, some of it is):
EDIT: Yasmin Alibhai Brown telling Americans how much people hate them.
Thank you. I thought most people would remember it. Perhaps Urquart was too young? My American producer's son-in-law worked on the 105th floor and I heard of his death the next day. It was unbelievably moving. I had been working with him just two weeks before. I wrote 'Sandy. I haven't got the words...." and he wrote back 'Roger. Sometimes there are no words'
I remember it quite well. I had a TV set in my office, which we only ever used for occasional training sessions (honestly) but that day someone who had a job which meant he had to travel between hospitals and therefore had a car with a radio came in and asked me to turn it on, ‘as something awful was happening’ . So I did and we watched, with other pharmacy staff popping in and out. I don’t recall anyone being other than horrified.
NATO was set up when the main superpower rivalling the US was Russia via the USSR, now as Ukraine has shown Russia is but a shadow of its former shelf though still Europe's main military threat. China is now the main superpower rival to the US and NATO is largely irrelevant to that having no member states from East Asia or Oceania. Counter terrorism. cyber security issues etc are better dealt with by Five Eyes, GCHQ etc than NATO.
Europe traded strategic autonomy for subsidised defence inside NATO which still makes a lot of sense, on some level, for them. The arrangement no longer makes any sense for the US.
Being inside NATO is now actively contrary to US interests as it diverts resources from the Pacific. Russia can pose zero conventional threat to anyone except the loudmouth Baltics and their security should be the EU's problem.
Canada and Alaska are closer to Russia than London is so they all have some interest but yes it is primarily a vehicle for European defence and European nations are the main nations who should fund it.
The US is focused now on funding its forces and allies in the Pacific to contain China
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans".
And since you bring up 9/11: you seem to have forgotten that the US's response was to invade Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands of people, including tens of thousands of civilians, and turn the whole country upside down for decades to come. What's the difference?
President Biden made that same point, urging Israel not to follow America's mistakes.
Though there have been no major terror attacks on US soil since 9/11 by Islamist extremists and Bin Laden was killed and Al Qaeda effectively removed from Afghanistan.
The US mistake was to stay too long and try to add the impossible task of removing the Taliban as well
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
Shocking that supporters of Netanyahu United are straying from the Bibi team talk, that the IDF are only targeting Hamas and not the Palestine people. Or possibly their admitting that that’s all tap-on-the-side of-nose bullshit.
I'm wondering why Israel don't offer to take all the patients in the Gaza hospital into one of their hospitals?. Then they can destroy it in peace
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
Shocking that supporters of Netanyahu United are straying from the Bibi team talk, that the IDF are only targeting Hamas and not the Palestine people. Or possibly their admitting that that’s all tap-on-the-side of-nose bullshit.
I'm wondering why Israel don't offer to take all the patients in the Gaza hospital into one of their hospitals?. Then they can destroy it in peace
How could they be sure that 78 year old on a ventilator isn't Hamas though?
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Yes I agree with that. I think it is the Corbyn position?
Europe and Britain need to be making plans now for the disappearance of NATO or, more accurately, the US's withdrawal from NATO, if Trump wins next year.
I do wonder if we should be working on expanding NATO to include countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. Would they want to join? There are numerous geopolitical factors at play here.
Why? NATO minus US can't project power, in a meaningful and enduring sense, to Australasia and they can't project power to Europe. It would be an alliance of countries that can't support each other.
Define support - 10,000 artillery shells by Tuesday? A shared LEO constellation?
I would suspect that if the US goes isolationist, the response will include increasing capabilities to try and bridge the gaps.
Already started, in a small way. Various European countries are restarting production (eg 155mm shells) that's been dormant for years. And the EU's desire for satellite systems independent of the US doesn't seem quite the folly it did.
Yes indeed. See Poland (and other countries) ordering whole munitions plants.
OneWeb is now in operation, by the way. And is the the first of the new generation of LEO comms constellations to finish deploying their generation 1 satellites.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
All those virtue signallers on here should watch it. .
Interesting comment from Rhodes Boyson that his ancestry included a fair amount of Huguenot. French immigrants as a result of persecution in France. Major employers in this area, too.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
1) Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party's 41 percent),
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
Shocking that supporters of Netanyahu United are straying from the Bibi team talk, that the IDF are only targeting Hamas and not the Palestine people. Or possibly their admitting that that’s all tap-on-the-side of-nose bullshit.
I'm wondering why Israel don't offer to take all the patients in the Gaza hospital into one of their hospitals?. Then they can destroy it in peace
1) Israeli hospitals in that region are still overflowing (for some reason) 2) The issue is likely more that some of the patients can't be moved 3) No-one wants to give Hamas an opportunity to send some of their people over in the process, masquerading as patients
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was living in the Caribbean when 9/11 happened and there were plenty of people there who expressed the view that it wasn't surprising in the context of US foreign policy - not that they had it coming but that it wasn't altogether a surprise. People who live outside the affluent West often feel that Westerners employ double standards and view their own lives as worth far more than others'. I didn't share their opinion on 9/11 but it was interesting to see their point of view. I think more people in the West should pay attention to how we are perceived elsewhere in the world, not only because a growing "West versus the rest" narrative is being exploited by countries like China, Russia and Iran, which harms our interests, but also because it is always instructive to see ourselves as others see us, as Burns put it.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
Europe and Britain need to be making plans now for the disappearance of NATO or, more accurately, the US's withdrawal from NATO, if Trump wins next year.
I do wonder if we should be working on expanding NATO to include countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. Would they want to join? There are numerous geopolitical factors at play here.
Why? NATO minus US can't project power, in a meaningful and enduring sense, to Australasia and they can't project power to Europe. It would be an alliance of countries that can't support each other.
Define support - 10,000 artillery shells by Tuesday? A shared LEO constellation?
I would suspect that if the US goes isolationist, the response will include increasing capabilities to try and bridge the gaps.
I also assume that unless the US goes full-on Putinist, their weapons manufacturers will be more than delighted to continue selling to Ukraine at market prices, as indeed is the case with much of what Ukraine buys. What would be lost would be freebies from the store cupboard, and (presumably) close intelligence and tactical coordination - but that's an area where I would hope the UK, France, Canada and others might be able to fill the gap.
Ukraine has considerably less than no money. Everything they buy from the US now is on credit with very little expectation of settlement. They also rely on regular loot drops from the US just to keep the lights on and pay government wages.
As do we. For now their debt/gdp ration is actually better than ours. And their growth prospects, postwar, are considerably better.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
It has always been the practice of bad faith actors and the ignorant.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
Actually there is a confluence - the “Jewish Finance” stuff from the Fascists meets the “Death to the Capitalists” from the Ultra Left, when the Ultra Left catches a case of anti-semitism.
Hence all the comments about politics being a circle.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
It has always been the practice of bad faith actors and the ignorant.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
Actually there is a confluence - the “Jewish Finance” stuff from the Fascists meets the “Death to the Capitalists” from the Ultra Left, when the Ultra Left catches a case of anti-semitism.
Hence all the comments about politics being a circle.
There is certainly that, but the far right also have this very "weird", the Jews are controlling the world such they are deliberately trying to increase immigration into the West, so "we" the native population will be replaced and destroy it.
Where as the left is the capitalist / oppressed vs oppressor narrative.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans"...
And you too evidently see what you want to see. That is the nature of social media feeds.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans"...
And you too evidently see what you want to see. That is the nature of social media feeds.
I promise you, I don't want to see any of this stuff.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
You really don't want politician to sit, horrified, staring paralysed at the screens like the rest of us. Though you'd like to believe they aren't completely indifferent.
FWIW, I recall being split between horror at what was happening, and wondering just how the world was about to change for everyone.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans"...
And you too evidently see what you want to see. That is the nature of social media feeds.
I promise you, I don't want to see any of this stuff.
What you see on social media is determined largely by your past choices. Which many of us later regret.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
It comes back to @Stark_Dawning's acute post early on. Hamas has played a blinder.
The reason that 9/11 QT was so interesting is that exactly the same questions were being asked in terms of response being such that sympathy is lost, etc.
And also why people on here are found wanting when it comes to the "what would you have done" question and understandably so.
There are several forces at work right now in Israel/Gaza and as people may have noticed (along with most of the leaders of much of the world), I am in the team which says that Israel believes it has to respond, it believes itself to be at war, and an existential one at that, and that they therefore get a lot of slack in what they do.
Will "civilians" in Gaza die as a result of this action? Yes. Is Israel making efforts to minimise civilian casualties? Yes also, as a brief look at Gaza will attest.
And yes I did put "civilians" in quotation marks because I do not subscribe to the ordinary, decent Gazans minding their own business, loving their Israeli neighbour, when all of a sudden out of nowhere an attack took place, involving many thousands, including many "civilians" also, it seems, conducted by someone they barely knew was the government of where they live.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
It is and it isn’t.
Israel was explicitly set up as a refuge for Jewish people, so to attack Israel (especially with the “river to the sea” line) is to imply that they don’t deserve a refuge.
Given the attempt to wipe them out as a race less than 100 years ago you can imagine why they might be sensitive to that
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
The US withdrawing from NATO would be an absolute catastrophe for American, as well as European, security.
It would remove about 80% of the West's military capability at a stroke and lead all sorts of malign actors to instantly probe and test the (now exposed) European countries. Our security situation would get markedly worse very very quickly.
This would also affect the US too as it would undermine the international rules based order, and inhibit their ability to trade, and that'd soon affect their economic situation and freedom of their citizens too.
NATO was set up when the main superpower rivalling the US was Russia via the USSR, now as Ukraine has shown Russia is but a shadow of its former shelf though still Europe's main military threat. China is now the main superpower rival to the US and NATO is largely irrelevant to that having no member states from East Asia or Oceania. Counter terrorism. cyber security issues etc are better dealt with by Five Eyes, GCHQ etc than NATO.
On trade Trump is of course protectionist and pro tariff, not pro free trade, anyway
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
NATO/OTAN is the linchpin of the west’s global security. It is in no way a regional alliance.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
It has always been the practice of bad faith actors and the ignorant.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
Actually there is a confluence - the “Jewish Finance” stuff from the Fascists meets the “Death to the Capitalists” from the Ultra Left, when the Ultra Left catches a case of anti-semitism.
Hence all the comments about politics being a circle.
There is certainly that, but the far right also have this very "weird", the Jews are controlling the world such they are deliberately trying to increase immigration into the West, so "we" the native population will be replaced and destroy it.
Where as the left is the capitalist / oppressed vs oppressor narrative.
The replacement thing is moderately (re)new in far right ideology - it could be said to be a revival of the old hatred’s relating to the wrong kind of immigrants. Who were often… Jews.
The traditional hatred was in terms of “they are taking over” - especially finance.
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
An outpouring of international sympathy and goodwill, soon thereafter to be squandered.
9/11. In our office we heard it unfold with due solemnity. The internet being still young our neighbour printed successive pages from the BBC site and circulated them round the building. One tower ... two towers ... any more for any more? The train ride home was attended by deathly silence.
It may be worth pointing out to younger readers that we didn't know what was going to happen next. Was this just the first skirmish in an asymmetric World War? All sorts of plausible nightmares fuelled our fears at the time, including dirty nukes and bioweapons. The prospect of being corralled within the M25 with 8 million other plague victims was not reassuring. Safety in numbers, eh?
In the event nothing much happened next. At least, not yet.
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
Oh for the days you could still speak to your bank manager…
9/11. In our office we heard it unfold with due solemnity. The internet being still young our neighbour printed successive pages from the BBC site and circulated them round the building. One tower ... two towers ... any more for any more? The train ride home was attended by deathly silence.
It may be worth pointing out to younger readers that we didn't know what was going to happen next. Was this just the first skirmish in an asymmetric World War? All sorts of plausible nightmares fuelled our fears at the time, including dirty nukes and bioweapons. The prospect of being corralled within the M25 with 8 million other plague victims was not reassuring. Safety in numbers, eh?
In the event nothing much happened next. At least, not yet.
As a fourteen year-old, it made me realise that no matter how big something seems, it probably isn't that big. After that, the only thing that made me worry was SARS, and, I was right to be worried about that.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
It comes back to @Stark_Dawning's acute post early on. Hamas has played a blinder.
The reason that 9/11 QT was so interesting is that exactly the same questions were being asked in terms of response being such that sympathy is lost, etc.
And also why people on here are found wanting when it comes to the "what would you have done" question and understandably so.
There are several forces at work right now in Israel/Gaza and as people may have noticed (along with most of the leaders of much of the world), I am in the team which says that Israel believes it has to respond, it believes itself to be at war, and an existential one at that, and that they therefore get a lot of slack in what they do.
Will "civilians" in Gaza die as a result of this action? Yes. Is Israel making efforts to minimise civilian casualties? Yes also, as a brief look at Gaza will attest.
And yes I did put "civilians" in quotation marks because I do not subscribe to the ordinary, decent Gazans minding their own business, loving their Israeli neighbour, when all of a sudden out of nowhere an attack took place, involving many thousands, including many "civilians" also, it seems, conducted by someone they barely knew was the government of where they live.
Yes, the Israeli gov have no good options which is why they have chosen the option that suits their understandably bunkered mindset and pretty much no one else.
And the answer to what would I have done is, I wouldn't have painted myself into that particular corner. But I get how they got there.
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
An outpouring of international sympathy and goodwill, soon thereafter to be squandered.
Indeed. But I think the similarities oughtn't to be overstated.
The cause of 9/11 was, AIUI, the presence of US troops in Saudi. So OBL decided to wreak his vengeance upon them for this egregious crime. US troops in Saudi, they then go and invade Afghan and Iraq and the rest is history. It was at no time an existential war.
Whatever the perceptions of the rights or wrongs of Israel's presence in the Middle East, recent events are being seen by Israel as existential. Israel couldn't care less about international goodwill if they believe their very existence is at stake.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
Yes...but the human/emotional aspect needs to be in the back of their minds. I can easily imagine Putin or Netanyahu or Xi or Trump or a Hamas leader deciding that N military and civilian casualties in pursuit of objective X are perfectly manageable in terms of geopolitical consequences, without giving much thought to the fact that this actually means N personal tragedies. Perhaps I'm libelling some or even all of them, but I suspect not, and that makes me reluctant to support any of them. (I'd give Biden a bit more credit than those as likely to have it somewhere in mind.)
I supported the NLF in Vietnam, as it seemed obviously a liberation struggle against a corrupt regime with cynical foreign backers, but recall mixed feelings when the North Vietnamese General Giap said something like "In the long run we are all dead anyway, so we need to concentrate on the long-term interest without considering that". Hmm.
Former President Donald J. Trump still has a huge lead in Iowa, according to a poll released Monday, but Nikki Haley has surged to tie Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for a distant second place.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
You really don't want politician to sit, horrified, staring paralysed at the screens like the rest of us. Though you'd like to believe they aren't completely indifferent.
FWIW, I recall being split between horror at what was happening, and wondering just how the world was about to change for everyone.
Along with the shock & awe my main initial reaction was a fear that the US would respond in an OTT ill-considered manner. And I'd say they did if we class Iraq as part of their response.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
Apart from anything else it looked like a freak accident until the second plane hit.
Yes, I remember being in an office on Tavistock Square and we had no idea at first about the seriousness of what was happening. It seemed like a small airplane had had an accident and the casualties would be low. It was with the second plane that we realised the horror of it. You’ve brought those memories flooding back.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it.
Nobody on here is saying that
Except you in this post.
Most on here are equally appalled at the death of all innocents.
Cyclefree only seems to post about Israeli deaths which have now been dwarfed in the revenge Genocide. 40 Kids 3000 Kids thats 3040 too many.
All innocents have equal worth
You believe that Israel is unfairly oppressing the Palestinians and hence the Hamas actions were justified in that context. If you believe that or something close to it then every Israeli is complicit in that oppression. Hence she was asking for it.
I've no idea what BJO thinks but whatever happens, it is just as false, offensive and absurd to claim that every Israeli is complicit as it is to assert that every Palestinian is complicit in Hamas's outrages.
You are having a logic fail. As we know, and forgive the assumption but I include BJO amongst them, there is a huge number of people who believe Israel is the oppressor and has been occupying "Palestine" since 1948/1967/1973 of pick a number. The Hamas actions were designed to end this occupation. If you take action to end an occupation it is a noble effort. The oppressors must be overthrown. As a whole, therefore, all Israelis are complicit because they choose to live in the country. Hence for people like BJO the girl was indeed culpable.
As for the Palestinians well yes also. They elected Hamas in 2006 and have to live with the consequences.
That said, if we were to google it I bet I could find some Israeli peace groups dedicated to, er, peace with the Palestinians. I might just do it now because I am interested in how many Palestinian peace groups there are.
They, Israeli or Palestinian, are no more complicit than you or I cancelled HS2.
I am absolutely complicit in cancelling HS2. I vote at general elections and the party that became government as a result of that general election cancelled HS2. However I voted.
If you really believe that perhaps you can use your influence and explain to the likes of cyclefree and Rochdale that "JEW" an "ISRAELI" are not interchangeable. British Jews did NOT vote for Netabnyahu or indeed any government in Israel. So anti Israeli is not tanslatable as anti Jewish and it is quite offensive to suggest it is.
Curiously, the conflating of 'Jew' and 'Israeli' used to be the practice of the British far-Right. Here's Dowager Lady Birdwood with Edwina Currie in the 1980s:
It has always been the practice of bad faith actors and the ignorant.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
Actually there is a confluence - the “Jewish Finance” stuff from the Fascists meets the “Death to the Capitalists” from the Ultra Left, when the Ultra Left catches a case of anti-semitism.
Hence all the comments about politics being a circle.
Thirty five years ago I went to a right wing conference, where it rapidly became clear that most speakers were loons.
There was one, James Stuart, who delivered a lecture on the Conspiracy Theory of International Finance, in which he claimed "The big bankers and the marxists get on very well together."
Which prompted another loon in the audience, Gregory Lauder Frost, to yell out "That's because they're the same religion."
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
Former President Donald J. Trump still has a huge lead in Iowa, according to a poll released Monday, but Nikki Haley has surged to tie Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for a distant second place.
NY Times
If the NotTrumpers coalesce around Haley she has a real shot.
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
An outpouring of international sympathy and goodwill, soon thereafter to be squandered.
Indeed. But I think the similarities oughtn't to be overstated.
Oddly, I wasn't actually thinking about the comparison, as I was back in a headspace from two decades ago.
(And you are correct in your caveats, but that doesn't invalidate Biden's recent warning to Israel.)
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
Thanks for that, whole problem solved. Phewee.
I mean dare I ask if you were PM of Israel, not Netanyahu, what you would have done.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
He has, proportionally, more support from the Likudniks here than he does back in Israel.
I can't think of anyone I knew whose first reaction to the Twin towers was that Americans had it coming. The first reaction was shock, horror and fear.
I was staying with the UK Ambassador to Denmark at the time, and we instantly went into dispassionate analyst mode - how remarkable, must have taken a lot of planning, what will be consequences be for global politics, etc. My then wife who was with us said sharply, "How can you discuss it like that? There are people dying in front of your eyes - shouldn't that be your first concern?" We both felt suitably uncomfortable - one can get so into political strategising that one loses track of human values.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
It is the job of decision makers in power to view things dispassionately and figure out what it means and how best to respond. Of course what matters is people but you don't serve them best by getting caught up in an emotional response. The emoting should be left to other people. Especially as the goal of these attacks is frequently to draw an emotional response and force a policy error.
It comes back to @Stark_Dawning's acute post early on. Hamas has played a blinder.
The reason that 9/11 QT was so interesting is that exactly the same questions were being asked in terms of response being such that sympathy is lost, etc.
And also why people on here are found wanting when it comes to the "what would you have done" question and understandably so.
There are several forces at work right now in Israel/Gaza and as people may have noticed (along with most of the leaders of much of the world), I am in the team which says that Israel believes it has to respond, it believes itself to be at war, and an existential one at that, and that they therefore get a lot of slack in what they do.
Will "civilians" in Gaza die as a result of this action? Yes. Is Israel making efforts to minimise civilian casualties? Yes also, as a brief look at Gaza will attest.
And yes I did put "civilians" in quotation marks because I do not subscribe to the ordinary, decent Gazans minding their own business, loving their Israeli neighbour, when all of a sudden out of nowhere an attack took place, involving many thousands, including many "civilians" also, it seems, conducted by someone they barely knew was the government of where they live.
Has Hamas played a blinder? I would argue not:
1 The hoped-for uprising amongst Middle East populations hasn't happened. So far, the Middle East and North African states are keeping a grip on their populations (laying aside the fact the populations may not be too happy at more conflict at a time when their economies are not great).
2. Diplomatically, it looks more and more like the Saudis have decided to cut the Palestinians loose as the latter risk their long-term plans. The UAE will probably follow suit therefore. Sure, Erdogan has backed them which is a plus but not entirely unexpected and may be more about the Saudi-Turkish fight for being top dog in the Islamic world.
3. Hezbollah has done jack as has Iran, which is increasingly looking like a toothless tiger, making threats but not doing much about it. That may change but, given the two US carrier groups off the Israeli coast, that looks unlikely.
4. Apart from a few outliers like Ireland and Spain, European governments have backed Israel and are likely to continue to do so. Meanwhile, the demonstrations are a boon to populist parties calling for less immigration and those such as Poland (Tusk is no liberal BTW) et al who want less immigration / taking in of refugees.
5. Much has been made of the Israeli actions radicalising the next generation of Gazans but it is equally like that the total and wide devastation of the strip makes the population think the cost is not worth the effort. The expected international pressure on Israel to stop retaliation hasn't come. If anything, Hamas' leaders are under threat if Qatar decides to throw them under the bus if it faces pressure.
That may change but, at the moment, I don't see it.
Former President Donald J. Trump still has a huge lead in Iowa, according to a poll released Monday, but Nikki Haley has surged to tie Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for a distant second place.
NY Times
If the NotTrumpers coalesce around Haley she has a real shot.
Not going to happen.
They have not learnt from last primary round. There has to be one non-Trump candidate or their vote is split.
He tends to confuse Hungary with Turkey for some reason.
Looking forward to Thanksgiving?
Well I was thinking of his muscular 'non PC' view that Viktor Orban is the leader of Turkey.
But yes that could be it. "Gee I'm Hungary, can't wait for my thanksgiving Turkey", something like this might be going through the Donald's head as he holds forth on foreign policy.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
And as his successor ?
I would kick out of the coalition the National Religious Party — the one whose leader described himself as a fascist (see previous thread) — and seek a coalition of national unity with Lapid and Gantz. I would reinforce the Gaza border. I would seek international cooperation. I would demand the hostages be released. I would halt all West Bank settlements as a gesture of good will to the PLO and try to get them on side against Hamas. I would ask the IDF for military options.
I would then pray for guidance as to what to do tomorrow!
Former President Donald J. Trump still has a huge lead in Iowa, according to a poll released Monday, but Nikki Haley has surged to tie Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for a distant second place.
NY Times
If the NotTrumpers coalesce around Haley she has a real shot.
Not going to happen.
They have not learnt from last primary round. There has to be one non-Trump candidate or their vote is split.
Idiots.
It might not happen at a stroke, more piecemeal and gradually as the primaries progress.
He tends to confuse Hungary with Turkey for some reason.
Looking forward to Thanksgiving?
Well I was thinking of his muscular 'non PC' view that Viktor Orban is the leader of Turkey.
But yes that could be it. "Gee I'm Hungary, can't wait for my thanksgiving Turkey", something like this might be going through the Donald's head as he holds forth on foreign policy.
Maybe Trump is a Greater Hungarian irredentist?
Probably not - that requires intellectual curiosity.
Though it could be that Orban has shown him the dream map of Hungary that he hides inside the back numbers of Playboy in the toilet.
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
The world definitely prefers its Jews to be compliant, weak, turn the other cheek types.
As PM of Israel what would you have done on October 7th?
Had I been Bibi on Oct 7th? I would have resigned and turned myself over to the courts to be tried for fraud. It is a disgrace that he is in office.
And as his successor ?
I would kick out of the coalition the National Religious Party — the one whose leader described himself as a fascist (see previous thread) — and seek a coalition of national unity with Lapid and Gantz. I would reinforce the Gaza border. I would seek international cooperation. I would demand the hostages be released. I would halt all West Bank settlements as a gesture of good will to the PLO and try to get them on side against Hamas. I would ask the IDF for military options.
I would then pray for guidance as to what to do tomorrow!
The body of that German girl, Shami Louk, who was attacked at the music festival and paraded on the back of a truck while men abused her has been found. RIP.
She, together with all Israelis, was asking for it, Cyclefree. Get with the narrative.
not funny
I wasn't trying to be.
No you weren't. I realise that.
What makes your comment so sad is that there are far too many people in this country who do think that. They have revealed themselves fully in the last three weeks. It is a horrible sight.
Many people's first reaction to the Twin Towers was that the Americans had it coming. Then when the fog cleared and people were seen falling from buildings the mood changed and it became a human tragedy.
Had the Israelis not been so belligerent and concentrated on the humanitarian side as the Americans did then the anti Israel rhetoric would have been much more muted. Since then it has all been about what pain they can cause to the Gazans and that has alienated even their friends
You clearly see what you want to see. Since 7 October, all my social media feeds have been filled with a combination of the following: - pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza - stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind - appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans"...
And you too evidently see what you want to see. That is the nature of social media feeds.
I promise you, I don't want to see any of this stuff.
What you see on social media is determined largely by your past choices. Which many of us later regret.
Obviously.
The question is why ultra-pacifist, anti-imperialist, anti-Israel Roger wants to see sadistic outpourings of revenge porn from Israelis, and how those would get into his feed.
Former President Donald J. Trump still has a huge lead in Iowa, according to a poll released Monday, but Nikki Haley has surged to tie Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for a distant second place.
NY Times
If the NotTrumpers coalesce around Haley she has a real shot.
Haley will only get the nomination if something* stops Trump. But I do tend to agree if it is not Trump, it will be Haley.
*now that ‘something’ is difficult to establish. It could be a collapse in his polling following conviction (if that does in fact bear itself out) or ineligibility being found under the Constitution, or death or illness, or what have you.
I was in Morocco, at the djemma el fna buying carpets.
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
An outpouring of international sympathy and goodwill, soon thereafter to be squandered.
Indeed. But I think the similarities oughtn't to be overstated.
The cause of 9/11 was, AIUI, the presence of US troops in Saudi. So OBL decided to wreak his vengeance upon them for this egregious crime. US troops in Saudi, they then go and invade Afghan and Iraq and the rest is history. It was at no time an existential war.
Whatever the perceptions of the rights or wrongs of Israel's presence in the Middle East, recent events are being seen by Israel as existential. Israel couldn't care less about international goodwill if they believe their very existence is at stake.
But their very existence isn't at stake is it!
Hamas isn't going to remove them. Israel is vastly more powerful including nuclear weapons. Framing this as an existential war is way OTT and provokes a cynical response.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_peace_projects
Many of the peace groups seem to cross the divide, which does make a certain sense when you think about it, but there are certainly peace groups with Palestinian origins.
You do have some time to prepare, though, due to slow running trains and capacity issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of6fsC9mOyU
EDIT: Yasmin Alibhai Brown telling Americans how much people hate them.
And one man's collective punishment is another's bombing raid on Dresden.
https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/status/1718767542821667219
Christopher Hitchens on an earlier iteration of Quran-excused barbarism...and the reaction to it.
United States vs the Barbary pirates.
2) Half of Gaza's population is under 18.
Hamas is an abomination and no friend of Palestinians. Please don't blame the Palestinian victims. Blame Hamas.
I remember one thing that set me apart from a lot of other Western students in Middle Eastern studies was my being German. Not because it provided me with some unique insight, but because people across the region would regularly come up to me and congratulate me on the Holocaust.
- pictures and bios of people currently held hostage in Gaza
- stories of those who died on 7 October and those they left behind
- appeals for help for the hundreds of thousands of displaced people within Israel, and the work being done with the aid received
I've seen absolutely zero about "what pain they can cause to the Gazans".
And since you bring up 9/11: you seem to have forgotten that the US's response was to invade Afghanistan, kill hundreds of thousands of people, including tens of thousands of civilians, and turn the whole country upside down for decades to come. What's the difference?
It would remove about 80% of the West's military capability at a stroke and lead all sorts of malign actors to instantly probe and test the (now exposed) European countries. Our security situation would get markedly worse very very quickly.
This would also affect the US too as it would undermine the international rules based order, and inhibit their ability to trade, and that'd soon affect their economic situation and freedom of their citizens too.
But Hamas is the government of Gaza. Israel believes that October 7th was an act of war by the government of Gaza. And hence is responding.
Throughout history there have been the innocents. Most notably, of course, in Germany during WWII. But when a government commits what is believed to be an act of war then the response must be expected.
Could have been recorded on October 8th.
On trade Trump is of course protectionist and pro tariff, not pro free trade, anyway
76% of the voters support a ceasefire, but it's clear that there are very different ideas about what constitutes a ceasefire. For some people, it means a ceasefire on both sides, and returning the hostages. For others, it means unilateral action by Israel.
Turning off water and electricity will not harm Hamas, sheltering in 500km of tunnels with the hostages. It will only harm ordinary citizens. Carpet bombing hardly degrades the tunnels but it kills civilians. Allowing aid in, suitably examined and administered by the UN does not help Hamas but saves lives.
I don't know the answer. Go for the leadership in Qatar? Penetrate and flood/gas the tunnels (but what about the hostages?) There needs to be a response. It could have been even worse without US mediation. But the current response is counter productive and may even further Hamas's objective. I don't know the answer. Much brighter people than me will be working on it.
Various European countries are restarting production (eg 155mm shells) that's been dormant for years. And the EU's desire for satellite systems independent of the US doesn't seem quite the folly it did.
Being inside NATO is now actively contrary to US interests as it diverts resources from the Pacific. Russia can pose zero conventional threat to anyone except the loudmouth Baltics and their security should be the EU's problem.
https://youtu.be/D13ds5KSxzQ?t=1852
That's not to say there weren't valid points raised and, sadly, the response to 9/11 wasn't limited to bombing some caves in Afghanistan.
It adds anothet wrinkle to a form of racism which is found across the politicial spectrum, long standing and complex e.g. The white supremacists hate the Jews for a totally different reason than those on the left.
Thanks for that. It's brilliant!
All those virtue signallers on here should watch it. .
The US is focused now on funding its forces and allies in the Pacific to contain China
The main question in the first footage is this.
https://x.com/Tendar/status/1718942256785195467?s=20
The US mistake was to stay too long and try to add the impossible task of removing the Taliban as well
A man walks past a newly painted graffiti that reads Hamas equal ISIS in Tel Aviv, Israel
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2023/10/30/TELEMMGLPICT000354968461_16986622294560_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQf0Rf_Wk3V23H2268P_XkPxc.jpeg?imwidth=960
OneWeb is now in operation, by the way. And is the the first of the new generation of LEO comms constellations to finish deploying their generation 1 satellites.
Major employers in this area, too.
2) The issue is likely more that some of the patients can't be moved
3) No-one wants to give Hamas an opportunity to send some of their people over in the process, masquerading as patients
Otherwise, it is standard practice for Israeli hospitals to treat Palestinians who either can't get treatment otherwise or are injured in Israel. This includes some of the 7 October terrorists:
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1697050407-controversy-as-hamas-terrorists-are-treated-in-israeli-hospitals
I didn't share their opinion on 9/11 but it was interesting to see their point of view. I think more people in the West should pay attention to how we are perceived elsewhere in the world, not only because a growing "West versus the rest" narrative is being exploited by countries like China, Russia and Iran, which harms our interests, but also because it is always instructive to see ourselves as others see us, as Burns put it.
And we were just observers - I wonder if the decision-makers in the higher reaches of politics don't suffer from the same syndrome, writ large.
For now their debt/gdp ration is actually better than ours. And their growth prospects, postwar, are considerably better.
Hence all the comments about politics being a circle.
Where as the left is the capitalist / oppressed vs oppressor narrative.
That is the nature of social media feeds.
FWIW, I recall being split between horror at what was happening, and wondering just how the world was about to change for everyone.
The reason that 9/11 QT was so interesting is that exactly the same questions were being asked in terms of response being such that sympathy is lost, etc.
And also why people on here are found wanting when it comes to the "what would you have done" question and understandably so.
There are several forces at work right now in Israel/Gaza and as people may have noticed (along with most of the leaders of much of the world), I am in the team which says that Israel believes it has to respond, it believes itself to be at war, and an existential one at that, and that they therefore get a lot of slack in what they do.
Will "civilians" in Gaza die as a result of this action? Yes. Is Israel making efforts to minimise civilian casualties? Yes also, as a brief look at Gaza will attest.
And yes I did put "civilians" in quotation marks because I do not subscribe to the ordinary, decent Gazans minding their own business, loving their Israeli neighbour, when all of a sudden out of nowhere an attack took place, involving many thousands, including many "civilians" also, it seems, conducted by someone they barely knew was the government of where they live.
McConnell goes all out as Ukraine fight fractures GOP
His intense lobbying effort puts the Senate GOP leader at odds with his new House counterpart, Speaker Mike Johnson.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/30/mcconnell-goes-all-out-as-ukraine-fight-fractures-gop-00123966
Israel was explicitly set up as a refuge for Jewish people, so to attack Israel (especially with the “river to the sea” line) is to imply that they don’t deserve a refuge.
Given the attempt to wipe them out as a race less than 100 years ago you can imagine why they might be sensitive to that
I paid by credit card and then called my bank to ask them to watch out for multiple transactions. The bank manager very calmly responded saying yes of course he would look out for erroneous transactions but right at that moment they thought that there were up to 20,000 people dead in the US and they were being evacuated from their offices.
I was actually staying at a riad called, of all things, Les Deux Tours. Everyone there watched TV all afternoon. Morocco, a very friendly and "non-typical" arab country took on a different complexion, even with the King writing on the front page of the paper the next day that Morocco stood against the act.
NATO/OTAN is the linchpin of the west’s global security. It is in no way a regional alliance.
The traditional hatred was in terms of “they are taking over” - especially finance.
It may be worth pointing out to younger readers that we didn't know what was going to happen next. Was this just the first skirmish in an asymmetric World War? All sorts of plausible nightmares fuelled our fears at the time, including dirty nukes and bioweapons. The prospect of being corralled within the M25 with 8 million other plague victims was not reassuring. Safety in numbers, eh?
In the event nothing much happened next. At least, not yet.
Sir Cliff Richard sings in BBC interview 'without artificial insemination'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-67261414
Yes, the Israeli gov have no good options which is why they have chosen the option that suits their understandably bunkered mindset and pretty much no one else.
And the answer to what would I have done is, I wouldn't have painted myself into that particular corner.
But I get how they got there.
The cause of 9/11 was, AIUI, the presence of US troops in Saudi. So OBL decided to wreak his vengeance upon them for this egregious crime. US troops in Saudi, they then go and invade Afghan and Iraq and the rest is history. It was at no time an existential war.
Whatever the perceptions of the rights or wrongs of Israel's presence in the Middle East, recent events are being seen by Israel as existential. Israel couldn't care less about international goodwill if they believe their very existence is at stake.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2023/10/19/e363e/1
I supported the NLF in Vietnam, as it seemed obviously a liberation struggle against a corrupt regime with cynical foreign backers, but recall mixed feelings when the North Vietnamese General Giap said something like "In the long run we are all dead anyway, so we need to concentrate on the long-term interest without considering that". Hmm.
NY Times
Trump claims that Hungary has a border with Russia.
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1718728874022908034
There was one, James Stuart, who delivered a lecture on the Conspiracy Theory of International Finance, in which he claimed "The big bankers and the marxists get on very well together."
Which prompted another loon in the audience, Gregory Lauder Frost, to yell out "That's because they're the same religion."
(And you are correct in your caveats, but that doesn't invalidate Biden's recent warning to Israel.)
I mean dare I ask if you were PM of Israel, not Netanyahu, what you would have done.
1 The hoped-for uprising amongst Middle East populations hasn't happened. So far, the Middle East and North African states are keeping a grip on their populations (laying aside the fact the populations may not be too happy at more conflict at a time when their economies are not great).
2. Diplomatically, it looks more and more like the Saudis have decided to cut the Palestinians loose as the latter risk their long-term plans. The UAE will probably follow suit therefore. Sure, Erdogan has backed them which is a plus but not entirely unexpected and may be more about the Saudi-Turkish fight for being top dog in the Islamic world.
3. Hezbollah has done jack as has Iran, which is increasingly looking like a toothless tiger, making threats but not doing much about it. That may change but, given the two US carrier groups off the Israeli coast, that looks unlikely.
4. Apart from a few outliers like Ireland and Spain, European governments have backed Israel and are likely to continue to do so. Meanwhile, the demonstrations are a boon to populist parties calling for less immigration and those such as Poland (Tusk is no liberal BTW) et al who want less immigration / taking in of refugees.
5. Much has been made of the Israeli actions radicalising the next generation of Gazans but it is equally like that the total and wide devastation of the strip makes the population think the cost is not worth the effort. The expected international pressure on Israel to stop retaliation hasn't come. If anything, Hamas' leaders are under threat if Qatar decides to throw them under the bus if it faces pressure.
That may change but, at the moment, I don't see it.
They have not learnt from last primary round. There has to be one non-Trump candidate or their vote is split.
Idiots.
But yes that could be it. "Gee I'm Hungary, can't wait for my thanksgiving Turkey", something like this might be going through the Donald's head as he holds forth on foreign policy.
I would then pray for guidance as to what to do tomorrow!
Probably not - that requires intellectual curiosity.
Though it could be that Orban has shown him the dream map of Hungary that he hides inside the back numbers of Playboy in the toilet.
The question is why ultra-pacifist, anti-imperialist, anti-Israel Roger wants to see sadistic outpourings of revenge porn from Israelis, and how those would get into his feed.
*now that ‘something’ is difficult to establish. It could be a collapse in his polling following conviction (if that does in fact bear itself out) or ineligibility being found under the Constitution, or death or illness, or what have you.
Hamas isn't going to remove them.
Israel is vastly more powerful including nuclear weapons.
Framing this as an existential war is way OTT and provokes a cynical response.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/30/more-than-4000-english-flood-defences-almost-useless-analysis-finds