politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After the ComRes Rochester poll UKIP becomes an even firmer
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Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.0 -
My (alcohol drinking, self-identified Muslim, who admits he doesn't actually believe in God) colleague, tells me that technically the Quran bans 'intoxicating' substances, and therefore cannabis, LSD, cocaine, heroin, etc. are all also banned.anotherDave said:
But smoking dope is OK?Pulpstar said:
Acts that are haram are typically prohibited in the religious texts of the Quran and the Sunnah. The category of haram is the highest status of prohibition. Islam teaches that a haram (sinful) act is recorded by an angel on the person's left shoulder.[2] If something is considered haram, it remains prohibited no matter how good the intention is or how honorable the purpose is.[3] A haram is converted into a gravitational force on the day of judgment and placed on mizan (weighing scales).___Bobajob___ said:Sean
Garbage. You can still be a Muslim and not be a strict Muslim. Or are you saying that people are not allowed to self identify as Muslims?
Intoxicants are also prohibited in Islam. Khamr is the Arabic word for alcoholic drinks that cause intoxication.[20] The Prophet declared that the prohibition was not only placed on wine, but the prohibition also included beer and other alcoholic beverages that intoxicate a person. The Prophet also forbade the trading of intoxicants, even with non-Muslims. It is not permissible for a Muslim to import or export alcoholic beverages, or to work in or own a place that sells intoxicants.[21] Giving intoxicants as a gift is also considered haram.0 -
You said:___Bobajob___ said:
Where did I say anything of the sort?Ishmael_X said:
Jesus.Richard_Tyndall said:
Many Catholics have affairs and abortions, many Jews eat pork and many Muslims drink. The idea you can only belong to a religion if you follow every one of their rules to the letter is risible.Ishmael_X said:
You do know that it is a religion, not an ethnicity? You can't tell by looking at someone whether he is muslim or not. If he's boozing in a pub on a Friday, he very possibly isn't. Stop making assumptions based on skin colour.___Bobajob___ said:Well he isn't right because Muslims do attend pubs. It really is that simple
Edit. Or if you enjoy Monty Python 'wisible'
I know all that. But the presumption "this person is muslim because he is brown" is so weak that it doesn't take much to rebut it.
Idiocy from you.
"I have just read on here that Muslims never go into pubs. Oh dear, what a load of rubbish.
Tons of Muslims go into pubs, try coming down to London. Check out the City on a Friday afternoon and see how long it takes to find a Muslim guy in sharp suit or a pretty girl of Pakistani heritage in heels sipping wine.
FFS."
That incontrovertibly implies that "a pretty girl of Pakistani heritage in heels" can be assumed, without further investigation, to be muslim.
God knows what this argument is about. I am sure lots of muslims do drink, and good for them. Drink = good, godbothering and FGM = bad.
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I'm glad we've cleared up that Hitler was, in fact, a socialist.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
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I think the point is they wouldn't be regarded as proper Muslims by most other followers of the faith around the world.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
Try visiting Bosnia. Predominately Muslim. Alcohol consumed widely, in public, and without shame or regret.
Different strokes for different folks.0 -
Sort of on topic, I've read the words 'John Baron' and 'defection to UKIP' in the same sentence a few times this afternoon.0
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6 of the latest 10 polls have put Labour on less than a third of the vote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#20140 -
Former banker/ City boy - another member of the elite. Is he a Freemason as well by chance?taffys said:Sort of on topic, I've read the words 'John Baron' and 'defection to UKIP' in the same sentence a few times this afternoon.
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@numbercruncher.
Opinium, who as I understand it do not prompt for UKIP, but do produce relatively high UKIP numbers say of their methodology:
"Why is Opinium’s [UKIP] number higher than some others?
We’d hope it’s because our number is the correct one but the main reason could be that we do not weight results by party ID or past vote. While we weight all results to nationally representative figures (such as the proportion of men and women in the population), we do not make sure that the number of people in the sample who say they voted for a particular party in 2010 matches the actual election result.
Whatever the virtues or drawbacks of this approach, it is possible that weighting to these factors (such as the UKIP’s 3.1% share of the vote in the 2010 election) may be pulling UKIP’s numbers for other firms below the more “raw” figures produced by Opinium."
http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/about-ukip-number
Perhaps Lord Ashcroft does something similar?0 -
So Muslim Pakistani shopkeepers can't sell alcohol then?
Well you learn something every day.0 -
Not past-vote weighting is... brave.anotherDave said:@numbercruncher.
Opinium, who as I understand it do not prompt for UKIP, but do produce relatively high UKIP numbers say of their methodology:
"Why is Opinium’s [UKIP] number higher than some others?
We’d hope it’s because our number is the correct one but the main reason could be that we do not weight results by party ID or past vote. While we weight all results to nationally representative figures (such as the proportion of men and women in the population), we do not make sure that the number of people in the sample who say they voted for a particular party in 2010 matches the actual election result.
Whatever the virtues or drawbacks of this approach, it is possible that weighting to these factors (such as the UKIP’s 3.1% share of the vote in the 2010 election) may be pulling UKIP’s numbers for other firms below the more “raw” figures produced by Opinium."
http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/about-ukip-number
Perhaps Lord Ashcroft does something similar?0 -
Billericay tends to be represented by "interesting" characters. Before John Baron it was of course Teresa Gorman who told her selection meeting she was 10 years younger than she actually was, and before that it was Monday Club member Harvey Proctor who was convicted of gross indecency in 1987, causing him to stand down as MP.TheWatcher said:
Ex banker/ City boy - another member of the elite. Is he a Freemason as well by chance?taffys said:Sort of on topic, I've read the words 'John Baron' and 'defection to UKIP' in the same sentence a few times this afternoon.
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What about Catholics who believe in the death penalty and practise birth control. Are they actually not Catholic?0
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The UKIP candidate in the next door constituency was sacked in favour of a "big fish" last Friday. Chinese whisper about Metcalfe?taffys said:Sort of on topic, I've read the words 'John Baron' and 'defection to UKIP' in the same sentence a few times this afternoon.
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/11543026.BREAKING__Ukip_s_candidate_for_Basildon_deselected_for__big_fish_/?ref=rss
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Does he ask for a "local" cab driver when in Rochdale ?TheWatcher said:
Former banker/ City boy - another member of the elite. Is he a Freemason as well by chance?taffys said:Sort of on topic, I've read the words 'John Baron' and 'defection to UKIP' in the same sentence a few times this afternoon.
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Shropshire Council hides behind scapegoats.
Residents from Dudleston and surrounding villages attended a short protest at Brooklands Farm this morning from 9.30 am to 11, as well as local people who work close by.
As a whole the community are saddened to hear that the planning officer Kelvin Hall has recommended acceptance of Dart Energy's planning proposal without his committee making a site visit, as there are a number of reasons why the proposed site is unsuitable, one of those reasons being the tiny lane on which the access is located. Another being the proximity of the slurry lagoon. The locals are disappointed that the councillors failed to carry out the inspection of the site, as they had notified they would be doing this morning at 10am. They were apparently put off by twenty well-dressed and polite campaigners standing at the side of the road. The road was not blocked, as was wrongly alleged by Kelvin Hall talking on Shropshire Radio. The councillors' vans reversed out of the road without even talking to anyone. They just left. Not even a 'Good morning'.
It seems Kelvin Hall's not confident of the position he's adopted with regards to Brooklands Farm. Otherwise why are he and others looking to blame today's tiny campaign by a few locals for the lack of a site visit, and also saying this could be a material factor in the decision. Why does he need a scapegoat if he's got his facts correct? As Chris Hesketh of Frackfree Dudleston has pointed out many times, Hall's figures are lifted straight from Dart Energy's own statistics on their website, which can hardly be seen as unbiassed. He should be forming his own judgements before recommending such an important decision to councillors.
The decision is yet to be taken by the elected councillors on the planning sub-committee at Shropshire Council. Let's hope that they, unlike Kelvin Hall's salaried officials, address this decision without making up their minds before the evidence is fully gathered, and by demonstrating an ability to form an objective view, not a ready made decision put into their hands by Dart Energy's PR department. The decision taken will affect us all for years to come, and we have a right to show we care for the beautiful surroundings we live and work in. People living miles away can expect to suffer health effects from any drilling. The smells, and the poisons released to air, water and soil are a great risk to be taking, and for what. The losses incurred by a drill will be beyond calculation, lost health and lost years, lost farms and businesses, lost jobs and opportunities as well as lost capital values.
http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/shropshire-council-officials-seek.html0 -
I don't think Mori weight by past vote either.OblitusSumMe said:
Not past-vote weighting is... brave.anotherDave said:@numbercruncher.
Opinium, who as I understand it do not prompt for UKIP, but do produce relatively high UKIP numbers say of their methodology:
"Why is Opinium’s [UKIP] number higher than some others?
We’d hope it’s because our number is the correct one but the main reason could be that we do not weight results by party ID or past vote. While we weight all results to nationally representative figures (such as the proportion of men and women in the population), we do not make sure that the number of people in the sample who say they voted for a particular party in 2010 matches the actual election result.
Whatever the virtues or drawbacks of this approach, it is possible that weighting to these factors (such as the UKIP’s 3.1% share of the vote in the 2010 election) may be pulling UKIP’s numbers for other firms below the more “raw” figures produced by Opinium."
http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/about-ukip-number
Perhaps Lord Ashcroft does something similar?
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So a quick sum tells me in the 30 polls of October Labour average a lead of 2.23%, subject to the accuracy of my poor mental maths.AndyJS said:6 of the latest 10 polls have put Labour on less than a third of the vote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#20140 -
Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.0 -
Basically, what we have learned this afternoon is that there are far fewer Moslems in this country - and, presumably, the rest of Europe - than a lot of people claim.DavidL said:So Muslim Pakistani shopkeepers can't sell alcohol then?
Well you learn something every day.0 -
Islam and alcohol.
There appears to be a concerted effort here to depict Islamic countries and their inhabitants as being like Saudi Arabia. It ain't so.
For instance Turkey, despite Erdogan's attempts to stop late-night alcohol sales, has the Efes Beverage Group (1), and Diageo recently bought Mey Icki. (2) for over $2 billion.
But that's Turkey, I hear you cry, which as ever is caught between two worlds. So what about, say, Iran?Under the law, it is forbidden for Iran's Muslim citizens to have alcoholic drink. However there is open violation of the law. Alcohol drinking is so widespread that Iranians are the third highest consumers of alcohol in Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries, behind Lebanon and Turkey (in both of which it is legal to drink), with an annual per capita consumption of 1.02 Liters.
(3)
(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group
(2): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/diageo-said-to-be-close-to-buying-distillery-mey-icki-of-turkey.html
(3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran0 -
My thoughts on the Greens' prospects next year:
http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/a-short-story-greens-target-list-for.html
SPOILER: not very good.0 -
Mr. Pulpstar, I prefer the Silmarillion, to be honest.0
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I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
So long as they outpoll the Lib Dems, that's all that is important.antifrank said:My thoughts on the Greens' prospects next year:
http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/a-short-story-greens-target-list-for.html
SPOILER: not very good.0 -
Same one I'll be heading to.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
(3)JosiasJessop said:Islam and alcohol.
There appears to be a concerted effort here to depict Islamic countries and their inhabitants as being like Saudi Arabia. It ain't so.
For instance Turkey, despite Erdogan's attempts to stop late-night alcohol sales, has the Efes Beverage Group (1), and Diageo recently bought Mey Icki. (2) for over $2 billion.
But that's Turkey, I hear you cry, which as ever is caught between two worlds. So what about, say, Iran?Under the law, it is forbidden for Iran's Muslim citizens to have alcoholic drink. However there is open violation of the law. Alcohol drinking is so widespread that Iranians are the third highest consumers of alcohol in Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries, behind Lebanon and Turkey (in both of which it is legal to drink), with an annual per capita consumption of 1.02 Liters.
(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group
(2): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/diageo-said-to-be-close-to-buying-distillery-mey-icki-of-turkey.html
(3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
Decent beer brewed in Morocco too. (I hope the wine has improved since my last visit)0 -
There are no good options in hell TSE. Repent!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?
Guest editor of PB forever while UKIP win every election?
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I'd love that, I'd be like Statler and Waldorf.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?
Guest editor of PB forever while UKIP win every election?
Mike has said he fancies taking a holiday next April and May.0 -
On a philosophical sidenote I'd say 99% of the world adheres to the same religion:
Cash.0 -
In hell, I'd be in charge of that circle of hell, that makes Dictators and Mass Murderers listen to crap music on a loop.anotherDave said:
There are no good options in hell TSE. Repent!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
Isabel Hardman: "... I hear that Kelly Tolhurst has won the Rochester open primary by fewer than 50 votes."
twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/5253287217007370240 -
One of my all time favourite PB threads, this.
Today we have learned that many, perhaps most, Muslims are actually not Muslims at all.
Bosnia is not a Muslim country. Pakistani corner shop owners are, in fact, not Muslims.
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Really? Crumbs.anotherDave said:
I don't think Mori weight by past vote either.OblitusSumMe said:
Not past-vote weighting is... brave.anotherDave said:@numbercruncher.
Opinium, who as I understand it do not prompt for UKIP, but do produce relatively high UKIP numbers say of their methodology:
"Why is Opinium’s [UKIP] number higher than some others?
We’d hope it’s because our number is the correct one but the main reason could be that we do not weight results by party ID or past vote. While we weight all results to nationally representative figures (such as the proportion of men and women in the population), we do not make sure that the number of people in the sample who say they voted for a particular party in 2010 matches the actual election result.
Whatever the virtues or drawbacks of this approach, it is possible that weighting to these factors (such as the UKIP’s 3.1% share of the vote in the 2010 election) may be pulling UKIP’s numbers for other firms below the more “raw” figures produced by Opinium."
http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/about-ukip-number
Perhaps Lord Ashcroft does something similar?0 -
(3)JosiasJessop said:Islam and alcohol.
There appears to be a concerted effort here to depict Islamic countries and their inhabitants as being like Saudi Arabia. It ain't so.
For instance Turkey, despite Erdogan's attempts to stop late-night alcohol sales, has the Efes Beverage Group (1), and Diageo recently bought Mey Icki. (2) for over $2 billion.
But that's Turkey, I hear you cry, which as ever is caught between two worlds. So what about, say, Iran?Under the law, it is forbidden for Iran's Muslim citizens to have alcoholic drink. However there is open violation of the law. Alcohol drinking is so widespread that Iranians are the third highest consumers of alcohol in Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries, behind Lebanon and Turkey (in both of which it is legal to drink), with an annual per capita consumption of 1.02 Liters.
(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group
(2): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/diageo-said-to-be-close-to-buying-distillery-mey-icki-of-turkey.html
(3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
I don't quite see how Iran being the third highest consumer of alcohol among Middle Eastern Muslim nations is particularly good evidence for Middle Eastern Muslim nations drinking a lot of alcohol. If you look at the raw number - 1.02 liters per individual per year - that sounds remarkably low.
That said, this is all a silly debate. Not drinking much alcohol is not a problematic thing. It's probably better than our binge drinkers.0 -
70 million non-adherents to the Temple of Money?Pulpstar said:On a philosophical sidenote I'd say 99% of the world adheres to the same religion:
Cash.
I guess there are a few places where the economy doesn't support cash and barter predominates. Might still be an over-estimate, though.0 -
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 1m1 minute ago
Red Len McCluskey: 'The person that impresses me most at the moment is Andy Burnham' #pm
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Ishmael - no it doesn't at all. You could ask her. Try talking to people, getting out more0
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Robert
Presumably coffee is also banned?0 -
They don't.OblitusSumMe said:
Really? Crumbs.anotherDave said:
I don't think Mori weight by past vote either.OblitusSumMe said:
Not past-vote weighting is... brave.anotherDave said:@numbercruncher.
Opinium, who as I understand it do not prompt for UKIP, but do produce relatively high UKIP numbers say of their methodology:
"Why is Opinium’s [UKIP] number higher than some others?
We’d hope it’s because our number is the correct one but the main reason could be that we do not weight results by party ID or past vote. While we weight all results to nationally representative figures (such as the proportion of men and women in the population), we do not make sure that the number of people in the sample who say they voted for a particular party in 2010 matches the actual election result.
Whatever the virtues or drawbacks of this approach, it is possible that weighting to these factors (such as the UKIP’s 3.1% share of the vote in the 2010 election) may be pulling UKIP’s numbers for other firms below the more “raw” figures produced by Opinium."
http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/about-ukip-number
Perhaps Lord Ashcroft does something similar?
And they've been towards the top of the charts when it comes to GE polling accuracy.
I think the reason Ipsos-Mori will continue to be more accurate than say Opinium is that they are a phone pollster, and not an online pollster like Opinium.
A phone poll will have more randomness in selection, than a politically motivated online panel.0 -
Isabel Hardman @IsabelHardman 6m6 minutes ago
On holiday but can't resist this: I hear that Kelly Tolhurst has won the Rochester open primary by fewer than 50 votes.0 -
The root of this argument lies in the claim that Farage's frequent trips to the boozer were an anti-Muslim dog whistle, because you wouldn't find a Muslim in a pub.Socrates said:That said, this is all a silly debate. Not drinking much alcohol is not a problematic thing. It's probably better than our binge drinkers.
As to the merits of alcohol, I think I fancy some port this evening. Anyone else care for a glass?0 -
Sean
You can self identify as what religion you like. There is no other way of deemimg what religion you are0 -
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/rochester-and-strood-by-election/lib-dem-to-lose-their-deposit
Lib Dems 1-10 to lose their deposit. (A fair price)0 -
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/rochester-and-strood-by-election/ukip-to-challenge-result
UKIP 5-1 to challenge a Tory win (Anyone who takes this needs to be shot)0 -
Mr. Ajob, Mormons don't drink coffee (or aren't meant to). I forget if Buddhists ban it.0
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Poor old Ed. No longer 'The Chosen One'.TGOHF said:James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 1m1 minute ago
Red Len McCluskey: 'The person that impresses me most at the moment is Andy Burnham' #pm
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Just because the bulk of Muslims would consider you to have left the faith because you drink regularly, doesn't mean it's true. It's perfectly possible to believe that there is one God, Muhammad is his prophet, but the Koran is not the literal word of God and was an approximation of his message or that parts don't apply to the 21st century for some reason.SeanT said:
Bobajob also seems to be referring to Muslims who drink "regularly" - who have a lifestyle of visiting the pub. Now, some moderate Muslims might tolerate the odd slip, the person who drinks once or twice is non-Muslim while they drink - but they can be forgiven if they repent. We are all sinners.AndyJS said:
I think the point is they wouldn't be regarded as proper Muslims by most other followers of the faith around the world.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
Try visiting Bosnia. Predominately Muslim. Alcohol consumed widely, in public, and without shame or regret.
Different strokes for different folks.
But the idea you can still be Muslim and regularly go out on Friday night to get sloshed in the pub is absurd to the point of idiocy. You're an ex-Muslim. You're someone of Muslim descent who has left the faith. The vast majority of Muslims would say this, and all Muslim scholars. Alcohol is haram. That's all there is to it.
It's a trivial point in some ways, and yet it reveals the misconceptions shared by too many on the left - like Bobajob - when it comes to Islam.
They think Islam is like Christianity, that it has that post-Enlightenment tolerance and flexibility.
It doesn't.
Now, I grant you that this is an extremely tiny position in Islam. I'm not sure I've ever come across someone that believes it - Reza Aslan maybe? - but if someone did have that position, then I don't think it stops you being Muslim. I also don't believe that just because 99% of Muslims would think otherwise, that means they're right and you're wrong about your status as a Muslim.0 -
Did you mean this 'lynch mob'.TGOHF said:
No - but this all things to all men lefty up there , righty down there is deeply unattractive and the reason I have never voted LD. Kippers are turning into the political equivalent of a lynch mob. The "YES" campaign for England - "free unicorns for all". Depressing that so many are taken in by it.manofkent2014 said:
Is that your response that because the Tories are a mess that's a reason not to vote UKIP?TGOHF said:
Well just another reason not to vote Kipper.manofkent2014 said:
Well given the number of rebels on the Tory backbenches can you tell me if there is a Tory backbencher that isn't running away from a handful of Tory policies? Certainly Carswell and Reckless were running away from so many they felt it necessary to run into the arms of another party......TGOHF said:
Ukip want to reintroduce the spare room subsidy for the public sector ? Wonder if that's another policy Carswell will have to run away from...manofkent2014 said:
Bours is UKIP's health spokesman and an MEP for the north west. UKIP's Health policy would exempt the NHS from TTIP something Len McCluskey is rather keen on.Norm said:
I presume Mark Harper and Louise Bours are the representatives from the "right" although I can't match a face on them right now. Please enlighten me someone!isam said:QT tonight
Alex Salmond, Caroline Flint, Mark Harper, Louise Bours & Len McCluskey
Mark Harper is the former Tory Immigration Minister who volunteered to resign (and Cameron accepted it) when he discovered having previously made checks that his cleaner was an illegal immigrant. He has since been appointed as Minister for the disabled. Given UKIP, Labour and no doubt Salmond and McCluskey want to scrap the bedroom tax and Harper's past on immigration I suspect he might be in for a torrid time.
http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/570/meta_images/original/IMG_0118.JPG?1413365999
Or perhaps this one:
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/189312/image_update_c21d71837d72615e_1365776843_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg
Whatever it is you are 'enjoying' give it up. Its affecting the judgement.
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That would be the Takfiri position, so radical Islamists have much in common with some commentators on this thread.___Bobajob___ said:One of my all time favourite PB threads, this.
Today we have learned that many, perhaps most, Muslims are actually not Muslims at all.
Bosnia is not a Muslim country. Pakistani corner shop owners are, in fact, not Muslims.0 -
As you suggest- you may as well back a Tory win at near 5-1....Pulpstar said:http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/rochester-and-strood-by-election/ukip-to-challenge-result
UKIP 5-1 to challenge a Tory win (Anyone who takes this needs to be shot)
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In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure traditional Islam believes that you can't leave Islam once you've said you believe in it.0
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You listen to ABBA - you like crap music.TheScreamingEagles said:
In hell, I'd be in charge of that circle of hell, that makes Dictators and Mass Murderers listen to crap music on a loop.anotherDave said:
There are no good options in hell TSE. Repent!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
or...Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Quran 16.67 “And of the fruits of the date palms and the grapes, you obtain alcoholic drinks and goods. Verily in that is a sign for a people who use their understanding.”
or
From the hadiths - Muslim 3753 “We were with the prophet of Allah and he was thirsty. And a man said: ‘O prophet of Allah, do you want to drink wine?’ Prophet of Allah said: ‘Yes’. The man went to get the wine. The prophet of Allah said: ‘Make it intoxicated’. And he drank.”
Its pretty clear then that trying to tell muslims they cannot drink on religious grounds is rubbish. People peddle lies to muslims to politically control them and peddle lies about muslims to take political advantage of them. You have to feel sorry for them really.
0 -
Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
Ha ha. Indeed.FalseFlag said:
That would be the Takfiri position, so radical Islamists have much in common with some commentators on this thread.___Bobajob___ said:One of my all time favourite PB threads, this.
Today we have learned that many, perhaps most, Muslims are actually not Muslims at all.
Bosnia is not a Muslim country. Pakistani corner shop owners are, in fact, not Muslims.
So if I say I believe in Islam then have a g and t I immediatejy vanish in a puff of counter logic?Socrates said:In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure traditional Islam believes that you can't leave Islam once you've said you believe in it.
0 -
4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...0
-
I don't quite see how Iran being the third highest consumer of alcohol among Middle Eastern Muslim nations is particularly good evidence for Middle Eastern Muslim nations drinking a lot of alcohol. If you look at the raw number - 1.02 liters per individual per year - that sounds remarkably low.Socrates said:
(3)JosiasJessop said:Islam and alcohol.
There appears to be a concerted effort here to depict Islamic countries and their inhabitants as being like Saudi Arabia. It ain't so.
For instance Turkey, despite Erdogan's attempts to stop late-night alcohol sales, has the Efes Beverage Group (1), and Diageo recently bought Mey Icki. (2) for over $2 billion.
But that's Turkey, I hear you cry, which as ever is caught between two worlds. So what about, say, Iran?Under the law, it is forbidden for Iran's Muslim citizens to have alcoholic drink. However there is open violation of the law. Alcohol drinking is so widespread that Iranians are the third highest consumers of alcohol in Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries, behind Lebanon and Turkey (in both of which it is legal to drink), with an annual per capita consumption of 1.02 Liters.
(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group
(2): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/diageo-said-to-be-close-to-buying-distillery-mey-icki-of-turkey.html
(3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
That said, this is all a silly debate. Not drinking much alcohol is not a problematic thing. It's probably better than our binge drinkers.
It's rather high considering what can happen if you're caught. And the bootlegging industry there is massive, much of which will not appear in the official figures. For instance there are an estimated 200,000 alcoholics in the country (although their definition might be different from ours).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18504268
The tone of this argument is rather hilarious. Instead of reaching out to the moderate Muslims who, like you, me and many other people, occasionally break the strictures of whatever religion they have, some on here are saying: "You drink! You stink! You're not true Muslims!"0 -
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
@AndyJS I'm withdrawing that 5-1 offer on Labour 2nd. In to 7-2.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
I think that would just make you a bad Muslim. According to the hardliners, at least.___Bobajob___ said:
So if I say I believe in Islam then have a g and t I immediatejy vanish in a puff of counter logic?Socrates said:In fact, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure traditional Islam believes that you can't leave Islam once you've said you believe in it.
0 -
Yes that's an applling turnout, I thought it might be 7000 - I don't think there is any value at all left in backing the Tories here now at anything less than perhaps 10-1.antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
My thinking too.antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
Considering she's not local and didn't show any particular policy differences to her opponent, Anna Firth did well to get it so close. She must have had the better (one week) campaign.0
-
4000 is a very poor turnout. So not worth the cost at that level.
Having 2 candidates that seemed pretty indistinguishable probably didn't help.0 -
Hat trick...TheScreamingEagles said:
My thinking too.antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/
Not encouraging... my Tolly bet may be going the same way as Rev Oswald0 -
We've had this debate before, but you can't self identify into another group if they refuse to recognise you.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
Mormons are not Christians, because most Christians believe they are separate. It doesn't matter what I believe.
0 -
Well that pretty much explodes my attempt at a ready reckoner really... It would make UKIP 1.01!!antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/
But I have to stay true-ish to my instincts... I think its all over if only 4000 people, 5% of the electorate, bother to return the primary voting form
If we say turnout will be just 33% it still means the Tories will get a max of around 32%
If I am right, the UKIP 45-50% and 50-55% bands are the way to go betting wise0 -
Ha Ha - 'Mark Reckless, Standing up for the Hoo Peninsula'manofkent2014 said:
Did you mean this 'lynch mob'.TGOHF said:
No - but this all things to all men lefty up there , righty down there is deeply unattractive and the reason I have never voted LD. Kippers are turning into the political equivalent of a lynch mob. The "YES" campaign for England - "free unicorns for all". Depressing that so many are taken in by it.manofkent2014 said:
Is that your response that because the Tories are a mess that's a reason not to vote UKIP?TGOHF said:
Well just another reason not to vote Kipper.manofkent2014 said:
Well given the number of rebels on the Tory backbenches can you tell me if there is a Tory backbencher that isn't running away from a handful of Tory policies? Certainly Carswell and Reckless were running away from so many they felt it necessary to run into the arms of another party......TGOHF said:
Ukip want to reintroduce the spare room subsidy for the public sector ? Wonder if that's another policy Carswell will have to run away from...manofkent2014 said:
Bours is UKIP's health spokesman and an MEP for the north west. UKIP's Health policy would exempt the NHS from TTIP something Len McCluskey is rather keen on.Norm said:
I presume Mark Harper and Louise Bours are the representatives from the "right" although I can't match a face on them right now. Please enlighten me someone!isam said:QT tonight
Alex Salmond, Caroline Flint, Mark Harper, Louise Bours & Len McCluskey
Mark Harper is the former Tory Immigration Minister who volunteered to resign (and Cameron accepted it) when he discovered having previously made checks that his cleaner was an illegal immigrant. He has since been appointed as Minister for the disabled. Given UKIP, Labour and no doubt Salmond and McCluskey want to scrap the bedroom tax and Harper's past on immigration I suspect he might be in for a torrid time.
http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/570/meta_images/original/IMG_0118.JPG?1413365999
Or perhaps this one:
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/189312/image_update_c21d71837d72615e_1365776843_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg
Whatever it is you are 'enjoying' give it up. Its affecting the judgement.
They forgot to add '... after a very recent U Turn'0 -
Fret not.Scrapheap_as_was said:4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...
Think of it as a low innings test match, especially in light of UKIP getting a big chunk of 2010 non voters.
0 -
Heresy.Socrates said:
You listen to ABBA - you like crap music.TheScreamingEagles said:
In hell, I'd be in charge of that circle of hell, that makes Dictators and Mass Murderers listen to crap music on a loop.anotherDave said:
There are no good options in hell TSE. Repent!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
Rubbish. Religion isn't majority rules. Protestants didn't suddenly become Christians just because the Catholic Church suddenly decided to stop seeing them as heretics.Charles said:
We've had this debate before, but you can't self identify into another group if they refuse to recognise you.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
Mormons are not Christians, because most Christians believe they are separate. It doesn't matter what I believe.
0 -
45-50% nets me a profit of £45 and I'm covered on the 50-55% band. I don't think 55%+ is possible (The polls won't be THAT far out), I'll be down £32.50 if they are.isam said:
Well that pretty much explodes my attempt at a ready reckoner really... It would make UKIP 1.01!!antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/
But I have to stay true-ish to my instincts... I think its all over if only 4000 people, 5% of the electorate, bother to return the primary voting form
If I am right, the 45-50% and 50-55% bands are the way to go
Overall I'm pretty happy with my position.0 -
I'm not sure she's right..TheScreamingEagles said:
Fret not.Scrapheap_as_was said:4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...
Think of it as a low innings test match, especially in light of UKIP getting a big chunk of 2010 non voters.
1m Louise Mensch ✔ @LouiseMensch
Great news that @KellyTolhurst the new candidate for #RochesterandStrood - 4,000 turnout great for a by-election #localgirl
0 -
Don't be harsh on yourself - I think your posts are well-written and informative. Very good indeed.antifrank said:My thoughts on the Greens' prospects next year:
http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/a-short-story-greens-target-list-for.html
SPOILER: not very good.
Only thing I would add on Bristol West is that the Greens gained an MEP in the South-West earlier in the year - so possibly that campaign has given them cause to hope? The Greens came third across the city as a whole, with almost twice the number of votes as the Lib Dems.
On the other hand, I remember Neil criticising Bristol Greens for over-optimism in past years, when they campaigned in two wards in the local elections and won neither, instead of targeting just one to start with. So it could be that the Greens in Bristol are simply over-optimistic and there's money to be made betting against them.0 -
What do you mean, "you"? I don't break any lifestyle strictures of my religion, because I'm not foolish enough to belong to the sort of outfit that has such things.JosiasJessop said:
It's rather high considering what can happen if you're caught. And the bootlegging industry there is massive, much of which will not appear in the official figures. For instance there are an estimated 200,000 alcoholics in the country (although their definition might be different from ours).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18504268
The tone of this argument is rather hilarious. Instead of reaching out to the moderate Muslims who, like you, me and many other people, occasionally break the strictures of whatever religion they have, some on here are saying: "You drink! You stink! You're not true Muslims!"
0 -
Well this will cheer me up!! Ed goes to Rochester.
Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 4 hrs4 hours ago
Walkabout time @Ed_Miliband walks a few hundred metres down high street. Turns corner. Comes back again #RSbyelection
Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 4 hrs4 hours ago
Bring the pink bear over - Miliband aide #thickofit #RSbyelection
Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 5 hrs5 hours ago
Slightly chaotic scene as @Ed_Miliband walks down to say hello to someone who waved at him. Person then walked off.0 -
Just how much have you "lumped on" for :O) ?Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm not sure she's right..TheScreamingEagles said:
Fret not.Scrapheap_as_was said:4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...
Think of it as a low innings test match, especially in light of UKIP getting a big chunk of 2010 non voters.
1m Louise Mensch ✔ @LouiseMensch
Great news that @KellyTolhurst the new candidate for #RochesterandStrood - 4,000 turnout great for a by-election #localgirl0 -
I don't know why anyone thinks people will be interested in primary voting when only candidates with identical party line views are allowed to compete in the first place.antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
Sunil may be interested to know that Philip Hyde has been selected as UKIP candidate for Ilford North.
https://twitter.com/FinanceReaper0 -
Charles
Wrong. A lot of Protestants would have you believe that Catholics are not Christians.
Who does the arbitration? You, me, them? Who?0 -
My "back of a fag packet" methodology of adding the 8,9,10/10 UKIP, the 9 &10/10 Tory and the 10/10 Labour vote ended up with UKIP on 47%.isam said:
Well that pretty much explodes my attempt at a ready reckoner really... It would make UKIP 1.01!!antifrank said:
I expect UKIP will be pretty pleased to hear of that level of turnout.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/
But I have to stay true-ish to my instincts... I think its all over if only 4000 people, 5% of the electorate, bother to return the primary voting form
If we say turnout will be just 33% it still means the Tories will get a max of around 32%
If I am right, the UKIP 45-50% and 50-55% bands are the way to go betting wise0 -
What was the turnout in the Kipper primary ?0
-
Erm... nearly 4 figures.Pulpstar said:
Just how much have you "lumped on" for :O) ?Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm not sure she's right..TheScreamingEagles said:
Fret not.Scrapheap_as_was said:4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...
Think of it as a low innings test match, especially in light of UKIP getting a big chunk of 2010 non voters.
1m Louise Mensch ✔ @LouiseMensch
Great news that @KellyTolhurst the new candidate for #RochesterandStrood - 4,000 turnout great for a by-election #localgirl0 -
The media are really going to enjoy the next general election campaign. Miliband is approaching Eddie the Eagle levels of "everyone knows he doesn't have a chance but isn't he brave for having a go" being humoured/ridiculed/belittled.Scrapheap_as_was said:Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 5 hrs5 hours ago
Slightly chaotic scene as @Ed_Miliband walks down to say hello to someone who waved at him. Person then walked off.
I have a really bad feeling about what he is going to go through for the next six and a bit months.0 -
Yes indeed. If classification of religion/sect in an academic sense could only be by the consent of the largest other group or groups that preceded the formation of the new sect, then for one no offshoots could possibly exist because the first time someone diverged from the initial form they would have and would still be labelled as not truly belonging to that faith, and yet somehow there have been hundreds of incredibly divergent sects of the Christian faith in the past 2000 years. How nice that offshoots with their potentially wacky ideas were no doubt condemned by the status quo and yet may be accepted as brothers and sisters of the faith now, almost as though the rules on who is an accepted christian has changed a great deal in that time and will continue to evolve, and that so many aspects of the most divergent existing 'christian' churches may be so far apart from one another, but we can be certain that the majority will never adjust on one or more other aspects, that a line will have been drawn in those instances that will never change.Socrates said:
Rubbish. Religion isn't majority rules. Protestants didn't suddenly become Christians just because the Catholic Church suddenly decided to stop seeing them as heretics.Charles said:
We've had this debate before, but you can't self identify into another group if they refuse to recognise you.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
Mormons are not Christians, because most Christians believe they are separate. It doesn't matter what I believe.
0 -
Protestants were Catholics who have a disagreement about governance. The theological differences - at least at the time of the split were not that significant.Socrates said:
Rubbish. Religion isn't majority rules. Protestants didn't suddenly become Christians just because the Catholic Church suddenly decided to stop seeing them as heretics.Charles said:
We've had this debate before, but you can't self identify into another group if they refuse to recognise you.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
Mormons are not Christians, because most Christians believe they are separate. It doesn't matter what I believe.
Mormons are an entirely different religion which has co-opted certain Christian beliefs and traditions. But there are enough differences that mean they are not recognised as members of the holy catholic* church or the communion of saints.
* In the Nicene sense0 -
More relevantly, within a few years of the Reformation, Catholics believed that Protestants weren't Christians. They've since changed their views over the last few centuries. Presumably Charles believes hundreds of millions of people suddenly became Christian when the Catholic at the 50th percentile changed his mind at some point in the 19th century.___Bobajob___ said:Charles
Wrong. A lot of Protestants would have you believe that Catholics are not Christians.
Who does the arbitration? You, me, them? Who?0 -
4,000 would be a turnout of about 5.3%.TheScreamingEagles said:Kelly Tolhurst has won the open primary to be Conservative candidate for Rochester and Strood, I understand. The result is not due to be announced until this evening, but I hear that Tolhurst won by fewer than 50 votes on a turnout of 4,000
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/isabel-hardman/2014/10/kelly-tolhurst-wins-rochester-primary-on-turnout-of-4000/0 -
Well make sure you come and drown your sorrows at Dirty Dicks with us on the day after.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm... nearly 4 figures.Pulpstar said:
Just how much have you "lumped on" for :O) ?Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm not sure she's right..TheScreamingEagles said:
Fret not.Scrapheap_as_was said:4000 .... erm that's slightly lower than I was hoping for...
Think of it as a low innings test match, especially in light of UKIP getting a big chunk of 2010 non voters.
1m Louise Mensch ✔ @LouiseMensch
Great news that @KellyTolhurst the new candidate for #RochesterandStrood - 4,000 turnout great for a by-election #localgirl0 -
We need more emoticons on PoliticalBetting. Can't tell whether irony was involved in that post.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm glad we've cleared up that Hitler was, in fact, a socialist.___Bobajob___ said:
Religion is self identified. No-one gets to say whether you are or not religious except you. Mormons are Christians because they say they are. Catholics are Christians even if Ian Paisley says they are not.SeanT said:
Well here's the problem. Islam is not like modern Christianity, is it? Nor is it like moderate forms of Judaism.___Bobajob___ said:Sean
So you cannot eat pork and be Jewish?
You cannot use jonnies and be Catholic?
Many millions of Jews and Catholics would beg to differ
It is much more strict and definitive, it doesn't offer a pick and mix morality. That's half the appeal.
Muslims who drink who also claim they are still Muslim remind me of polygamous Mormons claiming they are Christian. The Mormons can believe what they like but most Christians would say they are, by definition, not Christian.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/20/ukip-robert-jaroslaw-iwaszkiewicz-_n_6015116.html0 -
The Visitors by ABBA is one of the greatest albums of all time IMO.kle4 said:
Heresy.Socrates said:
You listen to ABBA - you like crap music.TheScreamingEagles said:
In hell, I'd be in charge of that circle of hell, that makes Dictators and Mass Murderers listen to crap music on a loop.anotherDave said:
There are no good options in hell TSE. Repent!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm the Muslim who has engaged in fornication, drinking and gambling and married an infidel.Pulpstar said:Quran 5:90 “O you who believe! Intoxications and gambling, (dedication of) stones and (divination by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handwork: so avoid it that you may prosper.”
We're all off to hell according to the Qu'ran btw.
Which circle of hell do you think I'm going in?0 -
It's rather high considering what can happen if you're caught. And the bootlegging industry there is massive, much of which will not appear in the official figures. For instance there are an estimated 200,000 alcoholics in the country (although their definition might be different from ours).JosiasJessop said:
I don't quite see how Iran being the third highest consumer of alcohol among Middle Eastern Muslim nations is particularly good evidence for Middle Eastern Muslim nations drinking a lot of alcohol. If you look at the raw number - 1.02 liters per individual per year - that sounds remarkably low.Socrates said:
(3)JosiasJessop said:Islam and alcohol.
There appears to be a concerted effort here to depict Islamic countries and their inhabitants as being like Saudi Arabia. It ain't so.
For instance Turkey, despite Erdogan's attempts to stop late-night alcohol sales, has the Efes Beverage Group (1), and Diageo recently bought Mey Icki. (2) for over $2 billion.
But that's Turkey, I hear you cry, which as ever is caught between two worlds. So what about, say, Iran?Under the law, it is forbidden for Iran's Muslim citizens to have alcoholic drink. However there is open violation of the law. Alcohol drinking is so widespread that Iranians are the third highest consumers of alcohol in Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries, behind Lebanon and Turkey (in both of which it is legal to drink), with an annual per capita consumption of 1.02 Liters.
(1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group
(2): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/diageo-said-to-be-close-to-buying-distillery-mey-icki-of-turkey.html
(3): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
That said, this is all a silly debate. Not drinking much alcohol is not a problematic thing. It's probably better than our binge drinkers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18504268
The tone of this argument is rather hilarious. Instead of reaching out to the moderate Muslims who, like you, me and many other people, occasionally break the strictures of whatever religion they have, some on here are saying: "You drink! You stink! You're not true Muslims!"
To be fair, I don't think Socrates is saying that. He seems to be equally baffled by the "not real Muslims" meme as you, me, Robert and DavidL.0 -
Who to believe...
Louise Mensch ✔ @LouiseMensch
Wrong to compare postal primary to GE primary in Totnes; by-elections v different, so 4k an encouraging number. #RochesterandStrood
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick
4,000 turnout in Rochester primary, if true, is barely 5 per cent, compared with 24% in Totnes primary in 2009
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Yeah I know sadly it takes time to rehabilitate defectors for the Tory party with their bad Cameroon influenced habits (first we'll have a referendum, then we won't, then we will, First we didn't ride Rebekah's Horse, then we might have, then we did). I'd have mentioned all the twists and turns in Tory immigration policy as well but frankly there are so many I've lost track of what's in this month and what's out?TheWatcher said:
Ha Ha - 'Mark Reckless, Standing up for the Hoo Peninsula'manofkent2014 said:
Did you mean this 'lynch mob'.TGOHF said:
No - but this all things to all men lefty up there , righty down there is deeply unattractive and the reason I have never voted LD. Kippers are turning into the political equivalent of a lynch mob. The "YES" campaign for England - "free unicorns for all". Depressing that so many are taken in by it.manofkent2014 said:
Is that your response that because the Tories are a mess that's a reason not to vote UKIP?TGOHF said:
Well just another reason not to vote Kipper.manofkent2014 said:
.TGOHF said:
Ukip want to reintroduce the spare room subsidy for the public sector ? Wonder if that's another policy Carswell will have to run away from...manofkent2014 said:
Bours is UKIP's health spokesman and an MEP for the north west. UKIP's Health policy would exempt the NHS from TTIP something Len McCluskey is rather keen on.Norm said:
I presume Mark Harper and Louise Bours are the representatives from the "right" although I can't match a face on them right now. Please enlighten me someone!isam said:QT tonight
Alex Salmond, Caroline Flint, Mark Harper, Louise Bours & Len McCluskey
Mark Harper is the former Tory Immigration Minister who volunteered to resign (and Cameron accepted it) when he discovered having previously made checks that his cleaner was an illegal immigrant. He has since been appointed as Minister for the disabled. Given UKIP, Labour and no doubt Salmond and McCluskey want to scrap the bedroom tax and Harper's past on immigration I suspect he might be in for a torrid time.
http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/570/meta_images/original/IMG_0118.JPG?1413365999
Or perhaps this one:
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/189312/image_update_c21d71837d72615e_1365776843_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg
Whatever it is you are 'enjoying' give it up. Its affecting the judgement.
They forgot to add '... after a very recent U Turn'0 -
It was a generic 'you, me and many other people'. I could just as easily have said 'we all', and for religion, 'beliefs and rules'.Socrates said:
What do you mean, "you"? I don't break any lifestyle strictures of my religion, because I'm not foolish enough to belong to the sort of outfit that has such things.JosiasJessop said:
It's rather high considering what can happen if you're caught. And the bootlegging industry there is massive, much of which will not appear in the official figures. For instance there are an estimated 200,000 alcoholics in the country (although their definition might be different from ours).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18504268
The tone of this argument is rather hilarious. Instead of reaching out to the moderate Muslims who, like you, me and many other people, occasionally break the strictures of whatever religion they have, some on here are saying: "You drink! You stink! You're not true Muslims!"
But I guess if you're nitpicking on that pathetic point, you agree with everything else I said?0 -
My Religious Studies teacher (who was also a laypreacher) asserted Mormons could not be Christians, because whilst they followed both Old and New Testaments and believed Jesus to be the Son of God, where the New Testament disagreed with the Book of Mormon they took the latter as the superior authority.0
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Still Catholic.SouthamObserver said:What about Catholics who believe in the death penalty and practise birth control. Are they actually not Catholic?
Go to any Catholic Church and you will find at least one double cubicle labeled 'confessional'. It is for the sacrement of reconciliation - to get right with God - by confessing your sins and doing penance.
A church without sinners would be very empty indeed.0
