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The new shy Tories? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    Leon said:

    Yeah, but there are limits

    I was at a funeral where the unworldly, dreamy vicar was asked to give a reading and decided he should thank all pallbearers and gravediggers etc etc for helping out. They all happened to be black and African. Some mischievous person told him that the latest nickname for funeral assistants of this practical nature was spades

    So he gave a speech where he gestured to the generally African section of the congregation and said "First, I'd like to thank all the spades who helped us throughout"
    You were the mischievious person I suspect
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,637

    https://www.bromley.gov.uk/local-history-heritage/history-bromley-area/2#:~:text=Administrative History,-The London Borough&text=Postally, Bromley is in Kent,made no difference to this.
    They are NOT the Royal Mail. ARE THEY? Postal Counties were abolished 27 years ago in 1996.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    glw said:

    It is not, but I can't be bothered arguing about this. So keep thinking whatever you like.
    Well your counter argument is to moan about Ireland and Biden. You don’t make a serious contribution.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,011
    edited April 2023

    They are NOT the Royal Mail. ARE THEY? Postal Counties were abolished 27 years ago in 1996.
    They are not but thats what Bromelys website says....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,819

    GDP per capita, whatever it’s faults, is the best indicator we have, and it’s clear that the UK is on course for around 20 years of stagnation.

    Despite the biggest immigration-driven population increase of any major Western European country. Does that not make you question your priors at all?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,011
    This may well.have been.posted earlier

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/86d24d4c-dc6e-11ed-a0a8-657f9e54fc6a?shareToken=ad1b2ce2b7b287d634d1e88eaea9b97c

    But my SNP schadenfreude level just ticked up a couple of points.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,747
    Pagan2 said:

    You were the mischievious person I suspect
    Absolutely not!
  • glwglw Posts: 10,361
    Foxy said:

    Up to a point. Distribution also matters.

    Of course it does.



    A growing economy where the growth is disproportionately ending up in the pockets of the already well-off is a recipe for unhapiness at best.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548

    Of course it does. Britain also performs poorly on those measures, although not as badly as the U.S.
    I feel like that is the case for a lot of things so works as a generic line (though they absolutely spank us on other things).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,323
    Leon said:

    Yeah, but there are limits

    I was at a funeral where the unworldly, dreamy vicar was asked to give a reading and decided he should thank all pallbearers and gravediggers etc etc for helping out. They all happened to be black and African. Some mischievous person told him that the latest nickname for funeral assistants of this practical nature was spades

    So he gave a speech where he gestured to the generally African section of the congregation and said "First, I'd like to thank all the spades who helped us throughout"
    Can you give assurances on who was not that mischievous person?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,361

    Well your counter argument is to moan about Ireland and Biden. You don’t make a serious contribution.

    I'm not moaning, and I agree with Biden. I was illustrating why GDP doesn't tell you a great deal about how "wealthy" a country really is. Making a Musk or Bezos filthy rich should not be the goal for any government, making average people meaningfully better-off should be.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    Despite the biggest immigration-driven population increase of any major Western European country. Does that not make you question your priors at all?
    At times. However, other high immigration countries (typically Anglo) have not seen the same level of stagnation.

    Economic theory, and the data, suggest that immigration improved overall productivity, and indeed the wages of native born workers in large part, even if the returns flowed more heavily to top earners.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,747
    edited April 2023

    Of course it does. Britain also performs poorly on those measures, although not as badly as the U.S.
    And THEN SOME

    US infant and maternal mortality is in freefall

    "In 2020, the Covid-19 pandemic led to the largest decline in U.S. life expectancy since the Second World War. Yet, prior to the pandemic, the U.S. was already experiencing a decrease in life expectancy, unlike any of its peer nations with comparable Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita. Among many factors contributing to this long-term trend is infant and maternal mortality."

    "US Has Highest Infant, Maternal Mortality Rates Despite the Most Health Care Spending"

    https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-has-highest-infant-maternal-mortality-rates-despite-the-most-health-care-spending

    Something really really weird is happening in America, perhaps never seen before. Apparent national success, in terms of GDP growth, is entirely detaching from the actual experience of ordinary Americans, which arguably is getting absolutely - not relatively - relentlessly worse (dying younger, less happy, more dead kids, fucked cities, gun violence, etc)

    It's like the Roman Empire conquering new territories in Parthia and Germania even as the plague ravages the imperial capital. The GDP goes up, the empire expands, but the rot is in the core
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,668
    RobD said:

    Best we have? If you wanted to measure standard of living, why wouldn’t you use something like average earnings?
    There are different averages. You probably want a median as it's not affected by the tails.

    But any average is only a point estimate. Probably better is a range, like an interquartile range.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,637
    edited April 2023

    They are not but thats what Bromelys website says....
    Has it occurred to you that that website is, er, WRONG?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    glw said:

    I'm not moaning, and I agree with Biden. I was illustrating why GDP doesn't tell you a great deal about how "wealthy" a country really is. Making a Musk or Bezos filthy rich should not be the goal for any government, making average people meaningfully better-off should be.
    Sure. I agree. But the original contention was that Britain was doing “OK” because a GDP forecast showed us as a middle performer.

    Whereas if you divide by expected per capita growth, you get a different story.

    Whether you are looking at GDP or other metrics, it’s a pretty dire outlook.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,807
    Sunak has been chuntering on about maths again apparently.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    Sunak has been chuntering on about maths again apparently.

    Maths is great.
    And he himself made it to the top…via maths.

    But the idea that we should insist on it until 18 is batshit.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,370
    carnforth said:

    Here are the IMF predictions in full. Middle of the pack, mediocre.


    Those map almost entirely onto dependency ratios, with the US and Canada having the best, and Italy and Japan the worst. (And the order in Europe matches too.)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    Leon said:

    And THEN SOME

    US infant and maternal mortality is in freefall

    "In 2020, the Covid-19 pandemic led to the largest decline in U.S. life expectancy since the Second World War. Yet, prior to the pandemic, the U.S. was already experiencing a decrease in life expectancy, unlike any of its peer nations with comparable Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita. Among many factors contributing to this long-term trend is infant and maternal mortality."

    "US Has Highest Infant, Maternal Mortality Rates Despite the Most Health Care Spending"

    https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-has-highest-infant-maternal-mortality-rates-despite-the-most-health-care-spending

    Something really really weird is happening in America, perhaps never seen before. Apparent national success, in terms of GDP growth, is entirely detaching from the actual experience of ordinary Americans, which arguably is getting absolutely - not relatively - relentlessly worse (dying younger, less happy, more dead kids, fucked cities, gun violence, etc)

    It's like the Roman Empire conquering new territories in Parthia and Germania even as the plague ravages the imperial capital. The GDP goes up, the empire expands, but the rot is in the core
    There are two Americas.
    But they largely live out of sight of each other.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,396
    ydoethur said:

    That collapsed a long time ago, as @dixiedean could I think explain to you even more forcefully than I can.
    Part of the problem with the Tavistock - as soon as a child with multiple challenges mentioned that they felt uncomfortable in their bodies they were pawned off by CAMHS to the Tavistock - who couldn't cope with the volume and focussed on getting children onto a medical pathway rather than addressing the psychological issues, which proper treatment might have resolved.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,747

    There are two Americas.
    But they largely live out of sight of each other.
    Not in my experience of recent visits to the USA (which have been plentiful)

    The two Americas increasingly overlap, in multiple forms

    I'd say America is doomed the way Rome was doomed, but for one thing: the amazing advantage the US still has in the very highest tech, from the big tech companies to AI

    There may come a time when the Anglosphere has to quasi-formally unite to make this work. Canada and Australia would bring enormous mineral wealth, the UK would bring enormous cultural/human wealth. And ideally the best of each society would dilute the worst in the other (in many different ways)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    It is 'halve' domestic crime isn't it?
    Well at the moment the police need one copper just to sort a single gollywog so the omens are not good
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,562
    Orpington, to my untrained sat-on-the-train eye is the closest thing the UK possesses to the American concept of Stepford
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548

    Maths is great.
    And he himself made it to the top…via maths.

    But the idea that we should insist on it until 18 is batshit.
    Can't see why it upsets people so much. Governments piss about with curriculums sometimes, maths until 18 gets a bit fat meh from me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Leon said:

    Not in my experience of recent visits to the USA (which have been plentiful)

    The two Americas increasingly overlap, in multiple forms

    I'd say America is doomed the way Rome was doomed, but for one thing: the amazing advantage the US still has in the very highest tech, from the big tech companies to AI

    There may come a time when the Anglosphere has to quasi-formally unite to make this work. Canada and Australia would bring enormous mineral wealth, the UK would bring enormous cultural/human wealth. And ideally the best of each society would dilute the worst in the other (in many different ways)
    It's difficult to see how AI is going to improve life for ordinary Americans.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Re: Leonine podcast on the ins and outs of knapping flint dildos, personally think it could be very gneiss.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    MattW said:

    I look forward to a Streetview of a two bed bungalow in Westminster :smile: .

    I can find you a pair of semis in Maida Vale if needed.

    450k sounds about right for a decent but small 2 bed bungalow in Surbiton.
    Surbiton - yes, but this is in the central Midlands, not far from a former mining area where property used to be incredibly cheap.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,641
    kle4 said:

    Can't see why it upsets people so much. Governments piss about with curriculums sometimes, maths until 18 gets a bit fat meh from me.
    Why don't they simply teach 'Maths for real life' as compulsory for years 12 and 13.

    Budgeting, understanding credit and mortgages, banking, investment, pensions etc. Not everyone needs to know quadratic equations etc.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561

    Why don't they simply teach 'Maths for real life' as compulsory for years 12 and 13.

    Budgeting, understanding credit and mortgages, banking, investment, pensions etc. Not everyone needs to know quadratic equations etc.
    Excellent post.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,641
    Dialup said:

    Excellent post.
    TY 👍
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548

    Why don't they simply teach 'Maths for real life' as compulsory for years 12 and 13.

    Budgeting, understanding credit and mortgages, banking, investment, pensions etc. Not everyone needs to know quadratic equations etc.
    That would be extremely helpful. Even as a longstanding adult those things can be confusing and aggravating. I recall we got a 1 hour talk from someone before going off to university about budgeting (I remember it because of being flabbergasted at an example estimate of monthly spend on clothes).

    I guess we've always just assumed parents will have 'the financial talk' with their kids.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,099
    ...
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,962

    You’ll upset the Berkshire irredentists who are currently planning terror bombings until Oxfordshire surrenders the Vale of White Horse.
    That outrage was perpetrated by the Conservatives, of course. They compounded it by moving Slough into Berkshire. Berkshire then fell into the hands of the Liberals, and very soon afterwards, the Conservatives abolished it.

    Conservative just have no idea what they are doing. They just mess about with everything. Do they do it for fun?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,637
    Andy_JS said:

    It's difficult to see how AI is going to improve life for ordinary Americans.
    American Improvement
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,637
    edited April 2023
    Bromley is:

    Part of administrative Greater London since 1965
    Part of the London Brough of Bromley since 1965
    Part of the Ceremonial County of Greater London, ie. London has a Lord Lieutenant and a High Sheriff
    Sends members to the London Assembly since 2000.
    Served by the London Fire Brigade
    Served by the London Ambulance Service
    Served by London Buses
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    ClippP said:

    That outrage was perpetrated by the Conservatives, of course. They compounded it by moving Slough into Berkshire. Berkshire then fell into the hands of the Liberals, and very soon afterwards, the Conservatives abolished it.

    Conservative just have no idea what they are doing. They just mess about with everything. Do they do it for fun?
    My most reactionary view is for the sensible re-establishment of the historic county borders.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548
    edited April 2023
    Speaking of America, as someone who likes playing about with maps I did like this 32 minute video on issues with US borders, and various potential options, from consolidation into fewer states or splitting into more states or basing on natural barriers. Would never happen, sure, but they are at their longest period without adding anyone new so they'd be due for a shake up! I like the natural boundary option myself (it admits to needing to get 'creative' as much as you try even going for natural boundaries alone won't always work).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnaRppzurpw
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548

    My most reactionary view is for the sensible re-establishment of the historic county borders.
    Including all the exclaves?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited April 2023
    kle4 said:

    Including all the exclaves?
    Pre 65 borders, in general.
    So, post Victorian clean ups.

    I’d keep the metros, so for example Greater London (indeed I’d likely expand I) but I’d ensure that borough boundaries cleave to historic county lines.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,548

    Pre 65 borders, in general.
    So, post Victorian clean ups.
    Ah see, but now we're already getting into exceptions and clarifications, and that will just open up another can of worms.

    I can think of quite a few areas ripe for a Principal Area Boundary Review to sort out some awkward cross boundary stuff, though I don't think they are very common.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    kle4 said:

    Ah see, but now we're already getting into exceptions and clarifications, and that will just open up another can of worms.

    I can think of quite a few areas ripe for a Principal Area Boundary Review to sort out some awkward cross boundary stuff, though I don't think they are very common.
    For example I find it bizarre that Cumbria, in its recent re-org, didn’t at least take the opportunity to revert down the Westmorland / Cumberland / Barrow line.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754
    edited April 2023
    Dialup said:

    Excellent post.
    You don’t really understand any of those concepts properly unless you can interpret graphs. And you can’t properly interpret graphs unless you understand quadratic equations (and ideally can stretch to basic calculus).
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754
    kle4 said:

    Ah see, but now we're already getting into exceptions and clarifications, and that will just open up another can of worms.

    I can think of quite a few areas ripe for a Principal Area Boundary Review to sort out some awkward cross boundary stuff, though I don't think they are very common.
    Once common sense breaks out and we implement my plan to abolish all local Government, we’ll be able to use just the ceremonial counties.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited April 2023
    biggles said:

    Once common sense breaks out and we implement my plan to abolish all local Government, we’ll be able to use just the ceremonial counties.
    It effectively has been abolished, which is one modest contribution to Britain’s stagnation “conundrum”.

    It turns out that, like democracy, strong and well-funded local government is the crappest system, except for all the others.

    For example, it’s taken 13 years and counting for Manchester to get the right to set its own bus fares. It’s like something from a Dickens novel.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754

    It effectively has been abolished, which is one modest contribution to Britain’s stagnation “conundrum”.

    It turns out that, like democracy, strong and well-funded local government is the crappest system, except for all the others.

    For example, it’s taken 13 years and counting for Manchester to get the right to set its own bus fares. It’s like something from a Dickens novel.
    Nonsense. Bus fairs should be the same everywhere. Utterly illogical for Manchester to do something different. Abolish it all and run it from the centre. Local Government exists purely to feed the egos of local politicians and fund the millions of non-jobs in local administration. Run it from the centre and give everyone the same (and the NHS too while we’re at it). Westminster/Whitehall gets the blame anyway.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    biggles said:

    Nonsense. Bus fairs should be the same everywhere. Utterly illogical for Manchester to do something different. Abolish it all and run it from the centre. Local Government exists purely to feed the egos of local politicians and fund the millions of non-jobs in local administration. Run it from the centre and give everyone the same (and the NHS too while we’re at it). Westminster/Whitehall gets the blame anyway.
    “Bus fares should be the same everywhere”.
    No doubt Chairman Mao thought the same thing.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,754

    “Bus fares should be the same everywhere”.
    No doubt Chairman Mao thought the same thing.
    What a silly example. Observing that a natural state monopoly (which is, in fact, regulated by the state) ought not to be priced based on where you happen to live is not exactly communism.

    Of course, you didn’t just call me a communist, you suggested Mao style Marxism, which is just silly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited April 2023
    biggles said:

    What a silly example. Observing that a natural state monopoly (which is, in fact, regulated by the state) ought not to be priced based on where you happen to live is not exactly communism.

    Of course, you didn’t just call me a communist, you suggested Mao style Marxism, which is just silly.
    The silly thing is your idea of how to run a country. Since when is a bus fare a “natural state monopoly”?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,759
    carnforth said:

    Here are the IMF predictions in full. Middle of the pack, mediocre.


    Second best in Europe which suggests that North America has a structural advantage
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,759
    Pagan2 said:

    It has been remarked that I am blunter than most but then I don't believe in calling a spade a manually operated agricultural excavation tool
    I unfortunately have no choice but to be diplomatic. It becomes habit forming after a while.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,087
    darkage said:

    Yeah but it is just misallocated funds, is it really objectively that much of a scandal ?

    It is quite bizarre that they can tear themselves apart and do so much damage to their cause over this.
    It is stolen money so same as a bank robbery and this is only the tip of tehhe iceberg.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Bromley is in Greater London, *and* in Kent.
    Hasn't been in Kent since 1965.
This discussion has been closed.