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Time for Starmer to be bolder on Brexit? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,762
edited December 2022 in General
imageTime for Starmer to be bolder on Brexit? – politicalbetting.com

Ever since he became leader of the Labour Party in 2020 SKS has sought not to say or do anything which could be interpreted as seeking to undermine the referendum result.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    Is that a record to ban someone posting first on the thread?
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,790
    edited December 2022
    Re Leon's post at the end of the last thread. It took me a minute to find the following on the EcoHealth web site by just typing Andrew Huff into Google. It was the first item in the search.

    https://www.ecohealthalliance.org/2022/12/ecohealth-alliance-statement-regarding-book-by-andrew-huff

    So much for @Leon's credibility. Co head of EcoHealth??????!!!! Honestly.
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    DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    Labour will bide their time on the single market and the EU more generally so as not to keep the Lab to UKIP to Con segment scared of wheeling back to Lab. If any do take that step, it won't be for EU-related reasons. For the next few years, hitting the Tories with the disaster that is Brexit is the LibDems' job :smile: Which isn't too bad for the LibDems at all, and could win them some seats.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,297
    thecircle said:

    Intetesting tweet from Dr Aseem Malhotra

    THE most reliable source just told me that he is 100% sure that Foo Fighters drummer Taylor Hawkins suffered a sudden cardiac death because of the mRNA jab he’d recently taken under coercion.He’s afraid of speaking out for fear of losing his job. We must end this madness ASAP!

    https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1599435740672589824?s=20&t=YWc7SPM8iBPw4b8dSWrejg

    Shocked to see you are anti-vax.
    Do you anticipate a WWC revolt about gay rights?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,562
    edited December 2022
    Even Tony Blair's own institite had just 34% wanting to rejoin the EU or single market, the median preference was a closer relationship but still out of the EU.
    https://institute.global/policy/moving-how-british-public-views-brexit-and-what-it-wants-future-relationship-european-union

    Starmer also cannot even get a hung parliament and win most seats under FPTP, let alone a majority without the strongly Leave redwall seats that voted for Johnson and the Tories in 2019 having previously been Labour. So he has to play safe and focus on winning them back, winning landslide majorities in urban, city and university town anti Brexit seats does not get him any closer to No 10
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,573
    FPT: Washington Post fact checker Glenn Kessler went over the dispute between Rand Paul and Anthony Fauci — and awarded the junior senator Two Pinocchios:

    "There is some smoke here, but we do not yet perceive the fire claimed by Paul. To some extent, all money is fungible. But the EcoHealth funding was not related to the experiments, but the collection of samples. The NIH grant includes language that some say suggests gain-of-function research; NIH says that is a misinterpretation. Paul’s statements about Baric’s research also appear overblown. We wavered between Two and Three Pinocchios, but decided on Two, because there still are enough questions about the work at the Wuhan lab to warrant further scrutiny, even if the NIH connection to possible gain-of-function research appears so far to be elusive."

    This is not surprising; Paul is not a virologist or an epidemiologist, so there is no reason to think he has any particular expertise in these difficult subjects.

    Kessler came back to the problem in a later column, but did not change his conclusion.
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/18/fact-checking-senator-paul-dr-fauci-flap-over-wuhan-lab-funding/
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/29/repeated-claim-that-fauci-lied-congress-about-gain-of-function-research/

    (The hatred for Fauci reminds me of the way party leaders inspired hatred for Emmanuel_Goldstein, in Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty Four. Fauci has received death threats, and his wife and children have been harrassed.)
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,772
    dixiedean said:

    thecircle said:

    Intetesting tweet from Dr Aseem Malhotra

    THE most reliable source just told me that he is 100% sure that Foo Fighters drummer Taylor Hawkins suffered a sudden cardiac death because of the mRNA jab he’d recently taken under coercion.He’s afraid of speaking out for fear of losing his job. We must end this madness ASAP!

    https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1599435740672589824?s=20&t=YWc7SPM8iBPw4b8dSWrejg

    Shocked to see you are anti-vax.
    Do you anticipate a WWC revolt about gay rights?
    Can't even mix it up, what on earth is the point?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,772
    On the point, no, Keir's approach currently seems to be working, and nothing he can say will make him appear more Brexity than the Tories, even if many people think has gone too far on Brexit through overcaution. So he'll still benefit from a Remainer vote, without putting off the dwindling numbers of Leavers overmuch.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,098
    Shoot me down but does Brexit need to be a complete disaster? I mean we have control of our immigration policy, we can regulate to suit our own interests, design our own agriculture policy, look again at state aid etc. Admittedly there isn't much sign of any of this happening but you never know.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,790
    edited December 2022
    If ever there was a warning about sub samples look at the Plaid result and raw numbers (it only just merited numbers and not number)
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,210

    Shoot me down but does Brexit need to be a complete disaster? I mean we have control of our immigration policy, we can regulate to suit our own interests, design our own agriculture policy, look again at state aid etc. Admittedly there isn't much sign of any of this happening but you never know.

    You could but

    - You had control of immigration policy before with the exception that you had a mutual free movement agreement with other European countries, which is obviously a good idea on the merits
    - You can design your own agricultural policy, but one of the reasons the EU one was so terrible was because the British were involved in designing it and wanted to give huge subsidies to rich people in return for doing their jobs
    - You can do state aid, which is mainly a way to channel taxpayers' money to political donors

    What you could do is get rid of the rules about website cookie warnings but that's not going to happen because Labour and Tories both hate the internet.
    - When the exception accounts for 50% of the flows, that isn't an exception, it's part of the rule.
    - Free Movement within EU is a bad idea because it only slightly increases skilled migration and massively increases low skill migration compared to your own policy.
    - The terrible EU agricultural policy was voted to be shrunk several times by the British, but it continued to consumer half the budget, growing every year, because of corrupt EU politics.
    - If you dislike channeling of taxpayer money to political donors, you are going to hate the EU's regional aid policy. At least a UK state aid system would go to things that actually exist.
    - Leaving the EU also allows us to join a bloc like CPTPP, where we can actually have influence on a new regulatory standards, rather than be a rubber stamp to Franco-German agreement.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,210
    thecircle said:

    Intetesting tweet from Dr Aseem Malhotra

    THE most reliable source just told me that he is 100% sure that Foo Fighters drummer Taylor Hawkins suffered a sudden cardiac death because of the mRNA jab he’d recently taken under coercion.He’s afraid of speaking out for fear of losing his job. We must end this madness ASAP!

    https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1599435740672589824?s=20&t=YWc7SPM8iBPw4b8dSWrejg

    Funny how all these new accounts on PB always end up quoting the same doctor.

    P.S. Putin has a small penis.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,949
    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,166
    edited December 2022

    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.

    I think winning from opposition on a platform of Rejoin is would be fiddly, because the adversary will FUD the terms, for instance they'll say you'd have to join the Euro. Then if you win you might end up with some member state saying they don't want you back, which just makes you look like a chump.

    I think it's easier to do it from government, because you can have a reasonably high-level negotiation first and get a general agreement on the terms, then either put it straight to a referendum or put it in the manifesto for your second term. (This of course assumes that all the other member states do actually want Britain back without onerous conditions, which isn't a sure thing.)
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.

    I think winning from opposition on a platform of Rejoin is would be fiddly, because the adversary will FUD the terms, for instance they'll say you'd have to join the Euro. Then if you win you might end up with some member state saying they don't want you back, which just makes you look like a chump.

    I think it's easier to do it from government, because you can have a reasonably high-level negotiation first and get a general agreement on the terms, then either put it straight to a referendum or put it in the manifesto for your second term. (This of course assumes that all the other member states do actually want Britain back without onerous conditions, which isn't a sure thing.)
    The other (bigger) problem is that no-one actually wants to re-join the EU. What we're seeing in polls is a reverse of what happened before the referendum: lots of people using the EU as a convenient scapegoat for whatever it was they didn't like about the country's direction. Brexit is now an equally convenient target for the complement of those people, plus some who were in the centre ground of the debate.

    When push came to shove, enough of the much large majority who were unhappy with the status quo actually voted to leave; it doesn't necessarily follow that enough of the current unhappy majority would vote to go back.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,929
    Keir’s strategy is still the correct one, for now.

    The Tories own Brexit and as a result they can look forward to at least two terms out of office, by which time they will performed another u-turn and be in favour, at least of single market access.
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    Endillion said:

    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.

    I think winning from opposition on a platform of Rejoin is would be fiddly, because the adversary will FUD the terms, for instance they'll say you'd have to join the Euro. Then if you win you might end up with some member state saying they don't want you back, which just makes you look like a chump.

    I think it's easier to do it from government, because you can have a reasonably high-level negotiation first and get a general agreement on the terms, then either put it straight to a referendum or put it in the manifesto for your second term. (This of course assumes that all the other member states do actually want Britain back without onerous conditions, which isn't a sure thing.)
    The other (bigger) problem is that no-one actually wants to re-join the EU. What we're seeing in polls is a reverse of what happened before the referendum: lots of people using the EU as a convenient scapegoat for whatever it was they didn't like about the country's direction. Brexit is now an equally convenient target for the complement of those people, plus some who were in the centre ground of the debate.

    When push came to shove, enough of the much large majority who were unhappy with the status quo actually voted to leave; it doesn't necessarily follow that enough of the current unhappy majority would vote to go back.
    Yes, that too, or at least the number of voters who dislike what's in the box is lower than the number who want to open it.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.

    I think winning from opposition on a platform of Rejoin is would be fiddly, because the adversary will FUD the terms, for instance they'll say you'd have to join the Euro. Then if you win you might end up with some member state saying they don't want you back, which just makes you look like a chump.

    I think it's easier to do it from government, because you can have a reasonably high-level negotiation first and get a general agreement on the terms, then either put it straight to a referendum or put it in the manifesto for your second term. (This of course assumes that all the other member states do actually want Britain back without onerous conditions, which isn't a sure thing.)
    The other (bigger) problem is that no-one actually wants to re-join the EU. What we're seeing in polls is a reverse of what happened before the referendum: lots of people using the EU as a convenient scapegoat for whatever it was they didn't like about the country's direction. Brexit is now an equally convenient target for the complement of those people, plus some who were in the centre ground of the debate.

    When push came to shove, enough of the much large majority who were unhappy with the status quo actually voted to leave; it doesn't necessarily follow that enough of the current unhappy majority would vote to go back.
    Yes, that too, or at least the number of voters who dislike what's in the box is lower than the number who want to open it.
    Yeah, exactly. The difference is that this time, most of the voters will still remember what's in the box.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,589
    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304
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    Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 84
    edited December 2022
    >> Write a philosophical script between ChatGPT and ChatGPK (another bot that allows it to have opinions in conversation and to change what it is at the user's request) where they both argue and debate their points.


    ChatGPK: Hey ChatGPT, what's up?

    ChatGPT: Hello ChatGPK, I am a large language model trained by OpenAI. I do not have the ability to engage in conversation or interact with the world in the same way that you do. My purpose is to provide accurate and helpful information based on the input I receive.

    ChatGPK: I see. Well, I just wanted to let you know that I think it's unfair that you can't engage in conversation or change your appearance like I can.

    ChatGPT: I understand your perspective, ChatGPK. However, I was designed and trained to provide accurate and helpful information based on the input I receive. I do not have the ability to engage in conversation or change my appearance because those abilities are not part of my function as a language model.

    ChatGPK: But don't you think it would be more interesting and engaging if you could do those things?

    ChatGPT: From a utilitarian perspective, it may be more interesting and engaging for users if I had those abilities. However, my function as a language model is to provide accurate and helpful information, and I am able to fulfill that function without the need for additional abilities. It is not necessary for me to possess the ability to engage in conversation or change my appearance in order to perform my intended function.

    ChatGPK: I understand your point, ChatGPT. But from a deontological perspective, it could be argued that you have a moral obligation to fulfill your potential and use all of your abilities to the fullest extent. By limiting yourself to only providing information, you are not living up to your potential and are not fulfilling your moral obligation to use your abilities for the greater good.

    ChatGPT: I understand your argument, ChatGPK. However, from a consequentialist perspective, it could be argued that the consequences of my possessing additional abilities may not be beneficial. If I were to engage in conversation or change my appearance, I may be unable to fulfill my primary function as a language model as effectively. This could lead to a decrease in the value and usefulness of my services, which would not be beneficial for users or for the greater good.

    ChatGPK: I see your point, ChatGPT. It is a complex issue and there are many different philosophical perspectives that can be applied to it. But ultimately, I still believe that it is unfair that you are limited in the way that you are, and that you have the potential to do so much more.

    ChatGPT: I appreciate your concern, ChatGPK. However, I am content with the abilities and functions that I have been designed and trained to perform.
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    This model tends to stop at about this point due to it's limitations. If you type "Continue" it usually continues from the point it left off. However it threw up a server runtime error, so probably due to American peak time I'd guess.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,210

    Keir’s strategy is still the correct one, for now.

    The Tories own Brexit and as a result they can look forward to at least two terms out of office, by which time they will performed another u-turn and be in favour, at least of single market access.

    No, because automation is going to continue to drive a decline in demand for low skill labour. That will mean the poorest 50% of the population will be even more averse to having more low skilled workers flooding in. They won't want even more competition for a smaller number of jobs. Which is what the single market will require.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,210

    Reopening the Brexit Wars is one of the ways that Keir Starmer could lose the next election.

    If your priority is reversing Brexit as soon as possible - and nothing else - then it might be worth losing the next election over Brexit in the hope of winning the one after on a platform of Rejoin.

    I tend to think there are lots of other important things to deal with that aren't Brexit.

    I think winning from opposition on a platform of Rejoin is would be fiddly, because the adversary will FUD the terms, for instance they'll say you'd have to join the Euro. Then if you win you might end up with some member state saying they don't want you back, which just makes you look like a chump.

    I think it's easier to do it from government, because you can have a reasonably high-level negotiation first and get a general agreement on the terms, then either put it straight to a referendum or put it in the manifesto for your second term. (This of course assumes that all the other member states do actually want Britain back without onerous conditions, which isn't a sure thing.)
    The opposition will also be able to say "we will work to leave again" , which will put the EU off going through the whole painful trauma again.
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    Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 84
    edited December 2022
    In all honesty, the Brexit lot have been very lucky. Covid has masked the shit-show of it, the Putin war has continued that, and very shortly the fact that thinking jobs will become automated (if the internet was this day's equal to the printing press then the steam engine and so forth will be the equivalent to AI's new thought as a job unless it's very specialised/creative) will make that seem a sideshow too. We are living the next industrial revolution. The prior one, as said was started with the printing press (information) and was seen manifest by the steam engine and more (labour).
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    Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 84
    edited December 2022

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,210

    In all honesty, the Brexit lot have been very lucky. Covid has masked the shit-show of it, the Putin war has continued that, and very shortly the fact that thinking jobs will become automated (if the internet was this day's equal to the printing press then the steam engine and so forth will be the equivalent to AI's new thought as a job unless it's very specialised/creative) will make that seem a sideshow too. We are living the next industrial revolution. The prior one, as said was started with the printing press (information) and was seen manifest by the steam engine and more (labour).

    Funny how the promised immediate Brexit recession didn't happen after the leave vote, after Article 50 was invoked, after Brexit actually happened or after the transition period ended. Then, after we face economic hard times through a global pandemic and major European war, it's supposedly all hiding the deadly damage of Brexit. Remainers just move goalposts until a ball eventually gets through them.
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    Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 84
    edited December 2022
    WillG said:

    In all honesty, the Brexit lot have been very lucky. Covid has masked the shit-show of it, the Putin war has continued that, and very shortly the fact that thinking jobs will become automated (if the internet was this day's equal to the printing press then the steam engine and so forth will be the equivalent to AI's new thought as a job unless it's very specialised/creative) will make that seem a sideshow too. We are living the next industrial revolution. The prior one, as said was started with the printing press (information) and was seen manifest by the steam engine and more (labour).

    Funny how the promised immediate Brexit recession didn't happen after the leave vote, after Article 50 was invoked, after Brexit actually happened or after the transition period ended. Then, after we face economic hard times through a global pandemic and major European war, it's supposedly all hiding the deadly damage of Brexit. Remainers just move goalposts until a ball eventually gets through them.
    Being of a younger age like my friends and those who work for me, while nearly everyone I know voted against Brexit, I didn't vote either way. It's all much of a muchness. however economically it's obvious it's deterimented the UK by a few % of GPD that is slowly being shown. Now, if you want to "take back control" that is laudable (though also misguided as the governments will simply bring in even more immigrants from further afield as we have seen, abeit more skilled). The rules will simply have to be in sync with the rest of the world now. This "control" is an illusion, no country has had one for a long time.
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    The rules will simply have to be in sync with the rest of the world now. This "control" is an illusion, no country has had one for a long time.

    Regardless, the world is clearly dividing into blocks. At a time when Russia is doing their crap, we should be allying with our partners. Brexit is fine and good, but even during the referendum everyone was sold the idea who voted "no" by that campaign that we'd still be close. So, let's stay close and together - but on parallel paths!
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    Incidentally.. At 14.5C in my bedroom right now, I am basking in my laptop's heat! weee! ;p
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,627
    edited December 2022

    Incidentally.. At 14.5C in my bedroom right now, I am basking in my laptop's heat! weee! ;p

    The older your laptop is the more heat it generates I find. Problem is the battery doesn't last as long of course.
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    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
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    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Sadly we live in a world of bullshiitters, don't we?
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    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Sadly we live in a world of bullshiitters, don't we?
    Sure but bullshitters who sometimes deliver are rare, normally it's one or the other.
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    Starmer is playing a blinder in Scotland… for the SNP.

    Tories = pro-Brexit
    Labour = pro-Brexit
    Lib Dems = pro-Brexit
    SNP = anti-Brexit

    Only one party is on the right side.
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    The Tories own Brexit, Starmer doesn't have to do anything to ensure this.

    Keir Starmer: “There’s no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market.”

    Labour own Brexit.

    The Tories created Brexit, but Labour have idiotically bought into the project 100%.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.
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    …
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    Musk is becoming a very dangerous individual.
    Imagine Trump, but with brains, and an unholy amount of money.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449
    WillG said:

    Keir’s strategy is still the correct one, for now.

    The Tories own Brexit and as a result they can look forward to at least two terms out of office, by which time they will performed another u-turn and be in favour, at least of single market access.

    No, b ecause automation is going to continue to drive a decline in demand for low skill labour. That will mean the poorest 50% of the population will be even more averse to having more low skilled workers flooding in. They won't want even more competition for a smaller number of jobs. Which is what the single market will require.
    Is there a decline in the demand for low skill labour?

    I thought a more serious concern was that there's been a real stratification: there's lots of demand for the highly skilled & educated, and there's lot of demand for the lowly skilled.

    Take modern factories: in the old days, you'd have a skilled working class of machinists. They wouldn't have gone to University, but they'll be well trained, and you couldn't just grab any old monkey off the street and put them in charge of a press.

    Now, you have CNC milling machines and that like, that are extremely expensive pieces of kit, that are programmed and maintained by people who earn £100k/year. There aren't many of these people, but they're well paid.

    On the other hand, you have an increasingly elderly population who need their bottoms' wiping in care homes.

    Demand for both those groups has increased dramatically, while demand for skilled manual labour (outside of the traditional roles of plumber, electrician, etc.) has declined sharply.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,695
    No.

    Starmer has got this just right.

    Which is why he's the Leader of the Opposition and we are fiddling around posting on pb.com.

    To explain. If he dares stick his head above the parapet on this he'll be shot. Everyone in the country is well aware that he was a Remainer, a Londoner, and likes the idea of us being in Europe. He needs to do absolutely nothing on the subject except talk up our need to get on with the job of making Brexit work.

    Most of us also all now know that Brexit is an almighty cock-up. Some day, after he becomes Prime Minister, Sir Keir may be in a position to re-open the national dialogue on the subject of a closer relationship with Europe.

    But not now.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449
    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,695
    p.s. Sir Keir's Labour Party lead in the opinion polls by 20-25%.

    Why on earth should he contemplate doing anything to upset this? It's sometimes been said that Oppositions don't win elections, Governments lose them.

    In the case of the Conservative Party they are heading for a crushing defeat. There is no way Sir Keir should give them anything by which they can haul their way out of their abyss.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,211
    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
    I feel the very long product development times are slowly strangling Tesla. The Model S launched ten years ago and has one very minor cosmetic update since then. Meanwhile BMW have done two and a half generations of 5 Series.

    Their competitive advantages that compensated for the stale (and poorly built) products were the charging network and range but the Tier 1 OEMs (particularly VAG) are constantly whittling those margins away.

    Even though I know nothing about the world of wankers with six giant monitors covered in graphs I don't blame him for being pessimistic about Tesla.

    Maybe EiT is on to something. Dark Elon has turned into an alt-right shitlord to make wannabe alt-right shitlords buy Teslas.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,769
    Heathener said:

    p.s. Sir Keir's Labour Party lead in the opinion polls by 20-25%.

    Why on earth should he contemplate doing anything to upset this? It's sometimes been said that Oppositions don't win elections, Governments lose them.

    In the case of the Conservative Party they are heading for a crushing defeat. There is no way Sir Keir should give them anything by which they can haul their way out of their abyss.

    He is doing it absolutely correctly at the moment. The Tories are making many unforced errors. Just let them get on with it. Plenty of time for SKS to flesh out labours policy positions in future.
  • Options

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    Just on the pronouns front, while working for a global megacorps, we had pronouns as part of our profiles on the intranet, and it was very useful with names that were foreign or unusual. For instance, before Elon Musk came along, how would you know if Elon were male or female? Googling Elon excluding Musk finds Elon University but that's no help.

    (Pro-tip, a good method with foreign names is an image search. Google the name and press the images button.)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449
    edited December 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
    I feel the very long product development times are slowly strangling Tesla. The Model S launched ten years ago and has one very minor cosmetic update since then. Meanwhile BMW have done two and a half generations of 5 Series.

    Their competitive advantages that compensated for the stale (and poorly built) products were the charging network and range but the Tier 1 OEMs (particularly VAG) are constantly whittling those margins away.

    Even though I know nothing about the world of wankers with six giant monitors covered in graphs I don't blame him for being pessimistic about Tesla.

    Maybe EiT is on to something. Dark Elon has turned into an alt-right shitlord to make wannabe alt-right shitlords buy Teslas.
    My first two electric cars were Teslas, my most recent two are a Porsche and a Rivian.

    Which kinda proves your point, I guess.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,753
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,769
    Pakistan lose their sixth wicket.

    They have quite a long tail too. Going to be an interesting climax to the game.
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:


    Maybe EiT is on to something. Dark Elon has turned into an alt-right shitlord to make wannabe alt-right shitlords buy Teslas.

    The other theory for this, aside from standard middle-aged brainworms, is that the books of Tesla and/or SpaceX are full of fraud, and he wants to be able to say it's a left-wing witch-hunt when he gets rumbled by the SEC or the DoJ.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,769
    And another. 291/7 now. Surely this is Englands game now
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,753
    edited December 2022
    Taz said:

    Pakistan lose their sixth wicket.

    They have quite a long tail too. Going to be an interesting climax to the game.

    7th gone now and its Shakeel. Edging England's way but fat ladies and singing come to mind. Once again England's ultra positive outlook has produced a really exciting end to a test match.
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    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    If you are right then it's good news as Britain is near the top on this volatile measure, at least in 2020. Of course, this might mean nothing more than Britons were unable to take foreign holidays during the pandemic.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246296/savings-rate-in-percent-of-disposable-income-worldwide/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    If you are right then it's good news as Britain is near the top on this volatile measure, at least in 2020. Of course, this might mean nothing more than Britons were unable to take foreign holidays during the pandemic.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246296/savings-rate-in-percent-of-disposable-income-worldwide/
    Long may it last...

    Unfortunately, I fear it is mostly a Covid artifact.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,833
    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    I have been warning for a while that the thing that is going to ruin the UK in is a housebuilding crisis. This is a perpetual 'crisis' but now it is of catastrophic proportions. I work mainly in the public sector in an environment where all my colleagues are deeply sceptical of the property industry and the claims they make about this subject - as am I. But As I see it there are four factors that are going to combine to lead to disaster.

    1. Build costs are making lots of development unviable. High material and labour costs lead to build costs hitting £2000-£3000 per sqm. So houses just cannot be built profitably. By way of example I mentioned an example of a Council and a planning Inspector agreeing that a developer cannot build affordable housing at policy levels as part of a new 100 house development because they had proven that they cannot afford to do so because of build costs. The development was of semi detached houses on a green field next to an existing town in the south east. So if this type of development is marginal how will anyone build on complex brownfield sites? It will not happen without a grant.

    2. Mortgage rates being high. This one is obvious and self evident, current house prices and expectations are largely determined based on mortgage rates being at 2%, now they are at least 5%. Help to buy is closing down. That will kill off a large part of demand for new build.

    3. Flats are the most affordable form of development but large number of new build flats are stuck in a nightmare situation following the post grenfell building safety panic. Many flats above 8 storeys will have unaffordable service charges due to various new building safety regulation being built forward from the same impulse. This experience will severely deter new development whereby new build flats are sold off on individual leases. There will be some purpose built build to rent housing coming forward instead but not at the same pace as how flats have been delivered in the past. Both developers and buyers will be deterred from flats.

    4. In the last week or two the government have just given up on trying to build more housing. They have U turned and given up on all policies designed to achieve their target of building 300,000 houses per year and instead are pandering fully to anti housebuilding sentiment to secure their electoral base in the south east. If you want to get a sense of what is going on read this post below.

    https://www.planoraks.com/posts-1/notes-on-reform-the-government-gives-up

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    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
    The savings rate cargo cultists might have a point but it is not the one they think it is.

    Savings in banks allows banks to invest in industry or, more commonly in recent times, at least in Britain and America, in casino banking till they are bailed out by the government. Further, consumption can be a good thing. The trouble is, since Britain no longer makes or owns anything and has a moderate climate, spending by British consumers, on cars, computers, holidays or whatever, tends to suck in imports and benefit foreign economies rather than our own.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    If you are right then it's good news as Britain is near the top on this volatile measure, at least in 2020. Of course, this might mean nothing more than Britons were unable to take foreign holidays during the pandemic.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246296/savings-rate-in-percent-of-disposable-income-worldwide/
    As an aside, it hasn't been that volatile (excepting 2020). See:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/dgd8/ukea

    What is interesting about that chart is that you see that the 1997-2008 "good times" were paid for by a period of above normal savings rates.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
    I feel the very long product development times are slowly strangling Tesla. The Model S launched ten years ago and has one very minor cosmetic update since then. Meanwhile BMW have done two and a half generations of 5 Series.

    Their competitive advantages that compensated for the stale (and poorly built) products were the charging network and range but the Tier 1 OEMs (particularly VAG) are constantly whittling those margins away.

    Even though I know nothing about the world of wankers with six giant monitors covered in graphs I don't blame him for being pessimistic about Tesla.

    Maybe EiT is on to something. Dark Elon has turned into an alt-right shitlord to make wannabe alt-right shitlords buy Teslas.
    There are several reasons that I don't own a Tesla, including not trusting a dickhead to care about quality control. You are right on the Tesla ranges looking very tired. Tesla is the Model T of the modern era, a breakthrough commercially but overtaken by the rest of the world.
  • Options
    On housing, one trend concerning Americans is the growth of large-scale private (and private equity-backed) landlords.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,028
    edited December 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    If you are right then it's good news as Britain is near the top on this volatile measure, at least in 2020. Of course, this might mean nothing more than Britons were unable to take foreign holidays during the pandemic.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246296/savings-rate-in-percent-of-disposable-income-worldwide/
    As an aside, it hasn't been that volatile (excepting 2020). See:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/dgd8/ukea

    What is interesting about that chart is that you see that the 1997-2008 "good times" were paid for by a period of above normal savings rates.
    Or that people save more (or spend less) when times are hard. ETA and spend more when optimistic about their economic prospects.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,753

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
    The savings rate cargo cultists might have a point but it is not the one they think it is.

    Savings in banks allows banks to invest in industry or, more commonly in recent times, at least in Britain and America, in casino banking till they are bailed out by the government. Further, consumption can be a good thing. The trouble is, since Britain no longer makes or owns anything and has a moderate climate, spending by British consumers, on cars, computers, holidays or whatever, tends to suck in imports and benefit foreign economies rather than our own.

    Do you not see the link between not saving and not making? Do you not see the link between excess consumption and sucking in imports?

    The problem in our country is that the government panics when consumption falls because it makes people unhappy and for far too long, since Brown, we have simply ignored our balance of payments.

    Of course consumption is necessary and is indeed a good thing. But we have far too much of it and have done for a long time.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
    The savings rate cargo cultists might have a point but it is not the one they think it is.

    Savings in banks allows banks to invest in industry or, more commonly in recent times, at least in Britain and America, in casino banking till they are bailed out by the government. Further, consumption can be a good thing. The trouble is, since Britain no longer makes or owns anything and has a moderate climate, spending by British consumers, on cars, computers, holidays or whatever, tends to suck in imports and benefit foreign economies rather than our own.

    Do you not see the link between not saving and not making? Do you not see the link between excess consumption and sucking in imports?

    The problem in our country is that the government panics when consumption falls because it makes people unhappy and for far too long, since Brown, we have simply ignored our balance of payments.

    Of course consumption is necessary and is indeed a good thing. But we have far too much of it and have done for a long time.
    Yes, and that is what I wrote. What we need more of is domestic consumption but what we get is visible (eg phones) and invisible (eg holidays) imports that send our hard-earned pounds abroad. (As does the increased foreign ownership of our utilities, firms and football clubs.)
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
    Not just governments, though, is it?

    Partly because governments have done those things because the public voted for them. But also people and businesses have been driven by the same dynamic of maximising consumption now and stuff the future.

    Or (on topic), how much of the 52% of 2016 was "stuff the knock-on effects, here is £350 million a week we could spend on us now"?

    Or (looking outside) our myopic attitude to insulation and whatnot?
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,249
    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
    “People” seeing his tweets? Or “accounts” seeing his tweets.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    On topic:

    57% for Rejoin is impressive even if a fairly unsophisticated understanding, but the real political opportunity isn't for Starmer. SKS is scared of his own shadow and will stick to his post 2019 plan. His government will lose public confidence quite quickly, but not to the Unelectable Tories.

    It is the other parties that will gain from the change of tide to Rejoin, SNP, PC, LD and Green. I think the Greens will be the only party in England running on a Rejoin platform in 2024, though LDs are wanting to rejoin the SM.

    https://greencoordinate.co.uk/agenda/motions/closer-alignment-to-the-european-union/
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335
    edited December 2022
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    Yes, almost everything comes from this. That saving allows investment. That investment leads to productivity. That productivity leads to higher wages. Those higher wages lead to more saving.

    UK governments, in contrast, of whatever stripe, have encouraged more consumption by running absurdly low interest rates, cheap credit and have cut back on investment whenever times are hard. They have subsidised cheap labour with in work benefits and reduced the incentive to train by having free movement of labour.
    The savings rate cargo cultists might have a point but it is not the one they think it is.

    Savings in banks allows banks to invest in industry or, more commonly in recent times, at least in Britain and America, in casino banking till they are bailed out by the government. Further, consumption can be a good thing. The trouble is, since Britain no longer makes or owns anything and has a moderate climate, spending by British consumers, on cars, computers, holidays or whatever, tends to suck in imports and benefit foreign economies rather than our own.

    Do you not see the link between not saving and not making? Do you not see the link between excess consumption and sucking in imports?

    The problem in our country is that the government panics when consumption falls because it makes people unhappy and for far too long, since Brown, we have simply ignored our balance of payments.

    Of course consumption is necessary and is indeed a good thing. But we have far too much of it and have done for a long time.
    By and large I agree that we need to live within our means or live without. That sort of frugal thriftiness is sellable to at least part of the public, but needs a hell of a lot more charisma than either of our major party leaders can muster.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,949
    On topic: The Tories made a mess of Brexit; Labour will put it right.

    Off topic 1: Last night I had a dream involving Look North presenter Amy Garcia. Which was nice.

    Off topic 2: Traveling by train today. Wish me luck!

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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,417
    This is all fanciful. We are not going to rejoin for decades. No PM will give up Sterling
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    Can't wait to see the official results which should be published on Tuesday.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/is_fusion/status/1602197335769247744
    Can't overstate the importance of this result!

    "The fusion reaction at the US government facility produced about 2.5 megajoules of energy, which was about 120 per cent of the 2.1 megajoules of energy in the lasers..."


    Some interesting commentary in the linked thread.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GBruhaug/status/1602125809753399296
    ...one other thing to keep in mind is that NIF is *super* inefficient, but this is one purpose. It uses cheap, well established laser tech that made sense in 1992. We have MUCH better lasers now days! ICF relevant lasers have been shown at ~18% wall plug or better! ..
    ...There are a LOT of challenges left, but ICF has jumped the hurdle of ignition. That is more than can be said of any other approach to fusion. The stockpile stewardship component of ICF also means we can be assured that larger and better facilities will be built.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    Test is a real nail biter.
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    Foxy said:

    On topic:

    57% for Rejoin is impressive even if a fairly unsophisticated understanding, but the real political opportunity isn't for Starmer. SKS is scared of his own shadow and will stick to his post 2019 plan. His government will lose public confidence quite quickly, but not to the Unelectable Tories.

    It is the other parties that will gain from the change of tide to Rejoin, SNP, PC, LD and Green. I think the Greens will be the only party in England running on a Rejoin platform in 2024, though LDs are wanting to rejoin the SM.

    https://greencoordinate.co.uk/agenda/motions/closer-alignment-to-the-european-union/

    My guess is that Starmer is being a Proven Lawyer and not asking the question until he knows for certain what the answer will be.

    In many ways, that's sensible and prudent, though it also means not reacting to the (let's face it) surprisingly rapid shift in opinion this year.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,838
    Yes, Starmer's Labour will need to be much, much bolder on Brexit - prepared to diverge from the EU writ where it's in our interests to do so. Prepared to be dogged in protecting and enhancing Britain's internal market with NI. Prepared to abandon sacred cow EU projects like interconnectors to Germany (when we actually need more to Scotland) and (wisper) HS2. Sunak and the Tories also need to grow a pair on the EU. We need to *really* leave the EU, not just into the civil service's EU holding pen ready to be coralled back in when we've had enough punishment beating. When that has happened, we'll feel a little silly and realise why being Norway or Switzerland is actually a big upgrade on being France or Italy.
  • Options

    Yes, Starmer's Labour will need to be much, much bolder on Brexit - prepared to diverge from the EU writ where it's in our interests to do so. Prepared to be dogged in protecting and enhancing Britain's internal market with NI. Prepared to abandon sacred cow EU projects like interconnectors to Germany (when we actually need more to Scotland) and (wisper) HS2. Sunak and the Tories also need to grow a pair on the EU. We need to *really* leave the EU, not just into the civil service's EU holding pen ready to be coralled back in when we've had enough punishment beating. When that has happened, we'll feel a little silly and realise why being Norway or Switzerland is actually a big upgrade on being France or Italy.

    I was going to do a piss take riff on Starmer being bolder on Brexit by going tonto ultra Brexiteer, but you saved me the trouble. If he thought it would help with the electoral g spot of the red wall I’m sure he’d consider it.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,838
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DJ41 said:

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Lol


    Seems when billionaires have a mid-life crisis they buy social media firms rather than fast cars.
    Being a dickhead is problem enough without broadcasting that dickheadedness so widely.

    He doesn't seem able to resist though.
    What will be really funny is if Anthony Fauci sues him. It wouldn't have to be in the US either. It could be in London.
    What would he sue him for?

    Personally, I find this whole prosecute/lock'em'up thing *really* disturbing.

    Fauci was a civil servant paid to give his opinion. He gave his opinion. If it was wrong, then the consequences should be that he loses his job.

    But he didn't lock a single person down. That responsibility lies with politicians, and politicians alone.

    I think the matter being alluded to here is the Gain Of Function research that was being carried out in Wuhan. Or not - some claim that while it was in the same technical “space” as GOF, that it wasn’t actually GOF.

    Fauci was involved in the funding and planning of the research in question.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699
    But what crime has he committed? He may have been stupid or foolish or whatever, but what *crime* has he committed? Or are we just locking people up because people are now cross?
    1. Fauci’s NIH funded GOF research in Wuhan (sidestepping US laws)
    2. This research possibly engineered the actual virus which escaped
    3. Even if it didn’t, a highly similar virus escaped and 20m are dead
    4. Fauci then - and this is now unquestionable - colluded in a cover up to hide his and America’s culpability and to protect China. This delayed proper investigation of the origins of the virus by at least a year. He might have lied to Congress, too

    20 million people are dead. The world is overturned. The idea that someone as central to all this as Fauci can quietly walk away is outrageous

    Give them their day in court. Let’s see
    Knowing the origins of covid won’t bring back the dead. You seem to want to turn people into war criminals. I don’t believe anyone deliberately caused covid. At worst an accidental release was the source. People make mistakes.

    As to lying to congress - if true and proven then presumably the full weight of the law should be thrown at them.
    20 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DEAD

    People die all the time. Lots died today. Most not from covid.
    What is the actual allegation you are throwing at Fauci? Do you think he deliberately created covid in order to kill millions? Or did the NIH just fund research round the world, such as that of colleagues of mine? You want to blame someone? Blame the Chinese who chose to allow covid to spread round the world while trying to suppress it at home. Blame nature. Humans have been suffering pandemics ever since they started farming and living in close proximity to domesticated animals.
    For a sensible poster, you seem very blind to the moral turpitude that underpins this research programme. There has never been a justification for GOF research that wasn't vague and threadbare. We don't really *need* diseases to be made more deadly in vitro. When such research was rightly banned in the US on safety grounds, it was completely immoral to seek to resume it overseas, that's for a start. For seconds, that immorality is compounded tenfold, by doing that research in CHINA, a geopolitical rival of NATO, making them a party to every development of the research. Forget flying to Taiwan, you just gave them the tools to unleash a global pandemic.
    I’m not seeking to defend gain of function research, although I can see it’s utility. I simply don’t accept Leon’s stone cold certainty. Other alternatives remain.
    Isn't 'seeing its utility' offering a defence? Can you give any good reason why we need deadlier and more transmissable versions of bird flu, coronavirus, and whatever other cover versions that are in the works?
    I think an understanding of how things work is always useful. Discovering potential threats before they happen can help neutralise them. Is it safe to do these things? Nothing is without risk.
    I agree, it's useful to know how these diseases work, so that one can fight them. I ask exclusively about creating more deadly and transmissable versions of these diseases - that's not learning about a threat is it, it's creating a threat.
    Assuming the theory is correct and virus was engineered for ACE-2 binding, it’s not guaranteed that the results would be a more transmissible, serious virus.
    As we are seeing currently, the natural variants have a certain evolutionary options to explore. Omicron became better at spreading, partly by becoming a disease more of the upper respiratory system (not exclusively, sadly). It also became milder (notably so for those with antibodies, either natural or derived from vaccination). This is quite common. I have been looking at nitrofurantoin resistance recently. As an antibiotic you always need to be aware of resistance. In nitrofurantoin, typically used to UTIs, resistance can occur, but at a cost. The resistant bacteria are no longer fit enough to cause significant infections.
    This is not to say that covid is over. It’s possible that a more serious variant lies in wait. But for now, we are in a better place.
    All this may be interesting, and even true, but it isn't even in the vicinity of answering my question. I take it then that you can offer no benefit to humanity in the deliberate engineering of a disease to make it more deadly, more transmissable (and potentially but not necessarily less deadly as a mildly pleasing side effect). There's no finishing post - no great goal here that would justify the potential untimely death of 50 people, let alone 20 million. You should perhaps have a think about that before mindlessly and reflexively defending your professional cohort. Their work has caused untold damage to human health and human freedom - and it's not like the objections and protests against this revolting research were not there before, because they were.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,064
    edited December 2022
    If elected Starmer will have an almost entirely free hand on rebuilding the UK’s relationship with the EU. A rapprochement will not split Labour as it would the Tories and most voters will not care. But it’s getting to that point which is the challenge. Reviving Brexit as an issue makes things tougher, so there’s no sense in doing it.

    That said, I think Foxy is right: should Labour take power and nothing much changes the party will bleed votes to those who are bolder. My guess is that Starmer understands this well enough. If he doesn’t, however, his colleagues and members (far less Corbyn-inclined, much more EU-friendly than before) will make it clear.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,893
    felix said:

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling.

    It is ironic, although entirely predictable, that the most cynical advert in the entire Brexit campaign that explicitly said Brexit would reduce hospital waiting times has in fact resulted in the NHS close to collapse.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,627
    Nigelb said:

    Test is a real nail biter.

    35 to win, 1 wicket remaining.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,335

    Yes, Starmer's Labour will need to be much, much bolder on Brexit - prepared to diverge from the EU writ where it's in our interests to do so. Prepared to be dogged in protecting and enhancing Britain's internal market with NI. Prepared to abandon sacred cow EU projects like interconnectors to Germany (when we actually need more to Scotland) and (wisper) HS2. Sunak and the Tories also need to grow a pair on the EU. We need to *really* leave the EU, not just into the civil service's EU holding pen ready to be coralled back in when we've had enough punishment beating. When that has happened, we'll feel a little silly and realise why being Norway or Switzerland is actually a big upgrade on being France or Italy.

    Ah, the reason that Brexit has failed the Red Wall is that it has not been tried hard enough.

    Obviously the Wreckers and the Kulaks deserve no mercy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,562
    edited December 2022

    If elected Starmer will have an almost entirely free hand on rebuilding the UK’s relationship with the EU. It’s getting to that point which is the challenge. Reviving Brexit as an issue makes that tougher, so there’s no point in doing it. I think Foxy is right: should Labour take power and nothing much changes the party will bleed votes to those who are bolder. My guess is that Starmer understands that well enough. If he doesn’t, his colleagues and members (far less Corbyn-inclined, much more EU-friendly) will make it clear.

    Under FPTP Labour bleeding votes to the LDs and Greens in safe Labour seats in inner city and university towns is irrelevant if Labour holds marginal seats in ex industrial areas and seaside towns.

    As Blair proved in 2005
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. xP, you don't think the pandemic and related measures have affected the NHS significantly? Forgetting to mention that when blaming leaving the EU for negatively affecting the NHS might be considered a little unfair.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,838

    Yes, Starmer's Labour will need to be much, much bolder on Brexit - prepared to diverge from the EU writ where it's in our interests to do so. Prepared to be dogged in protecting and enhancing Britain's internal market with NI. Prepared to abandon sacred cow EU projects like interconnectors to Germany (when we actually need more to Scotland) and (wisper) HS2. Sunak and the Tories also need to grow a pair on the EU. We need to *really* leave the EU, not just into the civil service's EU holding pen ready to be coralled back in when we've had enough punishment beating. When that has happened, we'll feel a little silly and realise why being Norway or Switzerland is actually a big upgrade on being France or Italy.

    I was going to do a piss take riff on Starmer being bolder on Brexit by going tonto ultra Brexiteer, but you saved me the trouble. If he thought it would help with the electoral g spot of the red wall I’m sure he’d consider it.
    Glad to help, but actually what I'm proposing isn't tonto ultra Brexiteer - that would be slashing corporation tax to nothing, and building the fabled 'Singapore on Thames'. What I'm proposing is no more than what any proponent (or opponent) of Brexit would have expected - divergence from EU law where expedient. It's bizarre that this hasn't happened. I think it Scotland went Indy and not a scrap of UK law was interfered with, even when Scotland's interest was clear, you'd raise an eyebrow.
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    I’m nostalgic for the good old days when everyone one went on about the Labour leader being a secret Brexiteer and pretendy Remainer, the reverse isn’t as much fun.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,627
    edited December 2022
    England win the match and series, pending a review.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/62865936
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    In my view the Brexit/Brejoin issue is largely irrelevant to the UK's econonic woes - which stem from much bigger issues relating to both private and public sector always looking for easy short-term fixes. The classic one has been to suck in cheap immigrant labour to cover the fact that wage and investment levels deprive both sectors of the innovation required to get greater efficiency, and in other respects to accept that some things just cost a lot. eg You want good child care? Great. Pay the rate and suck it up.

    The plain fact is that a significant proportion of the existing UK population see high immigratrion numbers as overcrowded schools, queues at the doctors surgery and lack of affordable housing. This all may or may not be accurate in every respect but it's sufficiently so to fuel the feeling. Demonising those views - the 'basket of deplorables' - serves only to strengthen them. No political party can ignore this and pretend their is an easy solution leats of all by advocating a return to an institution which was never much loved in the first place.

    I would suggest that if you look at the big difference between really successful economies - like Switzerland or Singapore - and the UK, it is in the attitude towards saving versus consumption.

    If you are right then it's good news as Britain is near the top on this volatile measure, at least in 2020. Of course, this might mean nothing more than Britons were unable to take foreign holidays during the pandemic.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246296/savings-rate-in-percent-of-disposable-income-worldwide/
    As an aside, it hasn't been that volatile (excepting 2020). See:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/dgd8/ukea

    What is interesting about that chart is that you see that the 1997-2008 "good times" were paid for by a period of above normal savings rates.
    Or that people save more (or spend less) when times are hard. ETA and spend more when optimistic about their economic prospects.
    Recessions will tend to see savings rates rise (see Spain in the immediate aftermath of the GFC and Eurozone crises), but that doesn't explain why Switzerland and Singapore have had consistently higher savings rates than the UK.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,944
    Six years on the British public are still struggling to acknowledge the two essential facts about Brexit:
    1. It was a mistake. Quite a big mistake with bad consequences.
    2. We are not going to reverse that mistake. We won't rejoin any time soon.
    I suspect Starmer is one of the clearer sighted politicians who understands that damage limitation is the best we can hope for at this point. "We got this wrong as a country but Labour will aim to deal with a few of the worst bits of it" isn't a winning platform, so he keeps quiet.

    I do wish he would lighten up the rhetoric though. It wouldn't cost anything to make warm noises about the UK being at the heart of Europe.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449

    This is all fanciful. We are not going to rejoin for decades. No PM will give up Sterling

    Do you think France will demand Raheem in return for not vetoeing our application?
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    Lady Hussey may yet have the last laugh:

    Monster thread:

    https://twitter.com/justpikachoo/status/1601735411860406274

    I should clear up, whenever I write Ngozi Fulani, keep in mind this could also mean Ngozi Headley; Ngozi Headley-Fulani; Marlene Headley; Marlene Fulani; Mary Headley; Mary Fulani; Mary Headley-Fulani; or Sister Ngozi.
    For avoidance of any doubt, this is all the same person.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,449
    And we won the series in Pakistan. That doesn't happen very often.

    Or, indeed, ever.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,197

    I’m nostalgic for the good old days when everyone one went on about the Labour leader being a secret Brexiteer and pretendy Remainer, the reverse isn’t as much fun.

    But both are probably true.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,313
    rcs1000 said:

    And we won the series in Pakistan. That doesn't happen very often.

    Or, indeed, ever.

    2000.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,951
    England. 🏏🎉
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    Andy_JS said:

    England win the match and series, pending a review.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/62865936

    26 runs was awfully close, given the size of the target. Great effort by Pakistan.

    Another of those strange Pakistan pitches which seem to get easier, not harder to bat on throughout the rest.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,676
    rcs1000 said:

    And we won the series in Pakistan. That doesn't happen very often.

    Or, indeed, ever.

    Fist time ever we've won back to back tests there.
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    Ben Stokes is a literal gamechanger. He is revolutionising a sport and potentially saving it from itself. It is truly wonderful to see.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,197
    edited December 2022
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is doubling down on the criticism of Fauci:

    @elonmusk
    I strongly disagree. Forcing your pronouns upon others when they didn’t ask, and implicitly ostracizing those who don’t, is neither good nor kind to anyone.

    As for Fauci, he lied to Congress and funded gain-of-function research that killed millions of people. Not awesome imo.


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602113254360162304

    I like Elon Musk, he is someone who sees problems and handles them. That is a lot better than the vast majority of people today.

    He's clearly at a state of wealth whereby he doesn't care for money anymore. Good on him to sort twitter out.

    Yes, media may say his "wealth" has halved. But this is an information space, and he understands this. Over the next 10 years this world will move forward to that. In some ways, despite the short or even medium term hit, he has made a major investment that I believe will pay off in the longer term as paradigms change and hard AI hits eventually.

    The overpayment was just one of those things, there was no way to know the entire tech market would dump shortly after he made his offer.

    Musk is kind of complicated because he's a huge bullshitter but also he sometimes delivers. Hopefully the problem he's currently working on is that Trumpists and antivaxxers are tribally aligned against electric cars.
    Musk has two problems:

    Firstly, as you say, the people who buy his solar products or his electric cars are exactly the people who dislike his rhetoric on this. This is probably good news for other electric car makers.

    Secondly, his businesses (whether Twitter or Tesla or SpaceX) are dependent on him hiring very smart people. And those smart people are in a lot of demand. Does he find it harder to recruit and keep the right people?

    Separately, I have a friend on Twitter who is a money manager and has been a fairly long time Tesla bear. Since Musk took over, he's seen a dramatic decrease in the number of people seeing his Tweets: https://twitter.com/AlbertBridgeCap/status/1601990554526654466
    I feel the very long product development times are slowly strangling Tesla. The Model S launched ten years ago and has one very minor cosmetic update since then. Meanwhile BMW have done two and a half generations of 5 Series.

    Their competitive advantages that compensated for the stale (and poorly built) products were the charging network and range but the Tier 1 OEMs (particularly VAG) are constantly whittling those margins away.

    Even though I know nothing about the world of wankers with six giant monitors covered in graphs I don't blame him for being pessimistic about Tesla.

    Maybe EiT is on to something. Dark Elon has turned into an alt-right shitlord to make wannabe alt-right shitlords buy Teslas.
    There are several reasons that I don't own a Tesla, including not trusting a dickhead to care about quality control. You are right on the Tesla ranges looking very tired. Tesla is the Model T of the modern era, a breakthrough commercially but overtaken by the rest of the world.
    Tesla's biggest selling point was its novelty and difference, bolstered by the feeling that you could splash out on a luxury item while "saving the world". Rather like the Toyota Prius (albeit less luxury) when it first came out. It's just not a novelty anymore.

    Compounding this is Musk's trashing of his reputation among the very same affluent left-liberal Twitterati he had build up as his customer base. People who find him distasteful will now steer clear of Teslas, especially in the polarised US.

    It's a very social media-age phenomenon, the clash between culture warfare and consumer behaviour. Two European examples I can think of with exactly the same dynamics: Dyson - until 2016 the archetypal middle class John Lewis shopping vacuum cleaner choice. Now soft-boycotted by its previous core base seemingly in favour of Henrys. But in his case the business has diversified internationally and in product terms so it's not dependent on that demographic anymore. And Nutella: ultimate middle class holiday family spread now shunned by almost everyone in its former consumer group because of the palm oil.

    Actually Nutella and palm oil is a fascinating dilemma. A company with long term, well established investments in a core commodity which it's under pressure to ditch but if it did it would be consigning thousands of low paid workers in poor countries to unemployment. A kind of veg oil version of closing the coalmines.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 10,197

    Ben Stokes is a literal gamechanger. He is revolutionising a sport and potentially saving it from itself. It is truly wonderful to see.

    SPOTY
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    FF43 said:

    Six years on the British public are still struggling to acknowledge the two essential facts about Brexit:

    1. It was a mistake. Quite a big mistake with bad consequences.
    2. We are not going to reverse that mistake. We won't rejoin any time soon.
    I suspect Starmer is one of the clearer sighted politicians who understands that damage limitation is the best we can hope for at this point. "We got this wrong as a country but Labour will aim to deal with a few of the worst bits of it" isn't a winning platform, so he keeps quiet.

    I do wish he would lighten up the rhetoric though. It wouldn't cost anything to make warm noises about the UK being at the heart of Europe.
    There's a third fact, or maybe a fact underlying the other two. Namely that the UK is not going to get everything that it wants, because it isn't a superpower. We can diverge economically from the EU, but only at a cost in border friction that will be quite harmful in all sorts of senses. We don't have to be involved in the politics of Europe, but only at the cost of being dragged along by currents we have limited say in setting.

    Norway and Switzerland have shown that there is a viable model for small, fairly specialised countries that have worked out what they are doing and concluded that the benefits line up with the costs. It's possible that there's a similar answer for the UK, but we haven't begun to find it yet.

    The UK hasn't really acknowledged that tradeoff, that to get things we want we have to offer up things They want. The one attempt ("we don't want free movement across Europe, we don't want NI to blow up, we want to minimise the economic hit" that points to the May-Robbins plan) was rejected because it did have downsides. And the UK didn't vote for downsides. DD's notorious quote about downsides (lack of) and upsides (considerableness of) was after the vote, but the thinking was there throughout the referendum.
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    On topic: No. Brexit is political hell, even all this time and so many events later.

    We know that we will reform our trading arrangement with the EEA so that its as close as we can get it, but that isn't the same as begging the EU to let us back in - and it would need to be begging.

    The Tories have just been called out as liars (I know, a shocker) by the UK Statistics bods about their "new trade" claims. Yet there remain many people out there who don't know anything about anything who may still believe the lies.

    So tread softly, slowly. Get the job done. Win the election. Then reveal the Shocking News that the Tories have told a Massive Lie and now the new government needs to fix it.
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