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Some positive polling for Starmer from Ipsos – politicalbetting.com

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  • I wonder if Kieffer Moore always supported Wales in the international games when he was growing up?

    It is possible. Most children support whoever their parents support, and his family is Welsh. As Home Internationals had been ditched before he was born, there'd not be too much strain. Or perhaps he could not find Wales on a map until offered a place in the team.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    My employer was so woke it promoted a series of useless fuckwits into management.
  • Alistair said:

    🔥Wow. Surprisingly refreshing take from Mhairi Black who, when asked directly by @untribalnews about my statement this week that Nicola Sturgeon et al remarks re Supreme Ct are out of the Trump playbook, said she agrees with me.

    Trouble at mill.👇🏻


    https://twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1596264003093037056

    Good grief, Sturgeon used statements like "Colony" and "Imprisoned"???

    This is huge news. When did this happen?

    I implicitly trust Alex Cole-Hamilton not to distort or otherwise misrepresent someone else's words.
    Or indeed you to ignore the “et al”.

    Surely you’re not suggesting SNP supporters didn’t use those words?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    Trouble is rather a lot of people would like to have a house in the first place, and the Tories have done their best to kick away the ladder and set fire to it.
    Most over 39s are home owners still, hence the Conservatives won a landslide in 2019 despite the majority of under 39s voting Labour
    Think you need to look up the meaning of 'hence' because if it means that then that also implies the Conservatives will win the next election which certainly is in doubt. 'Get Brexit done' and 'Corbyn' were (in my humble opinion) greater factors.

    True as you get older and as you buy property you are more likely to vote Tory as the Stats show (and I assume what you mean), but the word 'hence' is not right. It has a particular meaning which clearly isn't true as otherwise the Tory's would win every election where that was the case and they don't/won't.
    No, of course not. Labour could win property owners with a mortgage again as Blair did from 1997 to 2005 and Starmer looks likely to be able to where Corbyn couldn't. However most over 39s being home owners meant the Conservatives could and did win them.

    The point was home ownership is NOT the decisive point in general elections for as you say otherwise the Tories would win every general election as most voters are home owners. It is the decisive factor only why the young under 40s mostly vote Labour but as 2019 showed the Conservatives can still win losing them.

    Only if most under 50 to 55s were not home owners would it really threaten Tory chances at winning a general election and that is not currently the case
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    You're quite fond of lumping people into an identity group (British) and ascribing qualities to them (good).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited November 2022

    Just an idle thought, but perhaps the "war on woke" enthusiasts should reflect on their language? How about "let's moderate extreme wokeness" or something similar but more catchy? Is there really a need for a "war"? Even some of the anti-woke brigade may find "war" a bit of a turn-off.

    It is, but a bigger problem is that is focuses on woke and 'standing in its way'. It's likely to be about as successful as the war on drugs or the war on terror that way. Actually Elon Musk said it well when he said a "counter narrative" is needed. Anti-wokers instead need to be 'pro' something. When that happens, woke will move into the past.
  • Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    All of it, or just which groups should have priority?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article on the perfidy and uselessness of Sturgeon
    https://robinmcalpine.org/when-lost-stop-following-what-led-you-here/

    Good article:

    By the time she ‘promised to intend to hold a referendum’ in the ‘first part of the next parliament’, there weren’t many modifiers left for her to shed for the purpose of escalation – her rhetorical ‘dance of the seven veils’ was getting to a point where it needed to lead to some kind of climax.
    She has only one option left now , vote for me at general election for a referendum and hope the sheeple will take yet another dose of carrots line, after that she is bust.
    Perhaps some of the lower order sychophant troughing ex labour hangers on will start to worry that their jobs are on a shoogly peg and start to do something
    Her former law professor has described her GE stunt as “simply nuts”;

    Thirdly, her claim that the next general election is to be treated in Scotland as some kind of a pretend referendum on Scottish independence is equally bizarre. The word “general” is used in the title not just because all seats are contested but because all policies offered up by the candidates are contested too. For one political party to claim it has the right to restrict the democratic process to their self-selected issue doesn’t deserve a moment’s consideration. It flies in the face of the very purpose of democratic elections. In short, it is simply nuts.

    https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/alistair-bonnington

    Were Thatcher and Major simply nuts too when they used to say if SNP had a majority of the Scottish MPs that would be sufficient for independence?
    Interesting that it was Thatcher and Major who oversaw the weakening of the Union in the first place who thought that way. Thatcher probably believed that if they didn't like Thatcherism then in the long run they might as well go. Others among us might think that if a substantial part of the country is virulently opposed to a political doctrine we should ditch the doctrine.
    Yet the SNP never won anywhere near a majority of Scottish MPs under Thatcher. It was Blair creating Holyrood that saw the SNP win most MSPs in 2007 and then it was under Cameron the SNP won most Scottish MPs in 2015.

    Major was quite popular in Scotland initially, winning 11 Scottish Tory MPs in 1992, more than the 10 Thatcher did in 1987 and the highest number of SCon MPs until May won 13 in 2017
    of course May won 13 MPs in Scotland cos Davidson was promising the softest of soft Brexits.
    No as she was standing up to the SNP refusal to respect the 2014 referendum result.

    By contrast in 2015 pre the EU referendum under Cameron the SCons only won 1 MP
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    🔥Wow. Surprisingly refreshing take from Mhairi Black who, when asked directly by @untribalnews about my statement this week that Nicola Sturgeon et al remarks re Supreme Ct are out of the Trump playbook, said she agrees with me.

    Trouble at mill.👇🏻


    https://twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1596264003093037056

    Good grief, Sturgeon used statements like "Colony" and "Imprisoned"???

    This is huge news. When did this happen?

    I implicitly trust Alex Cole-Hamilton not to distort or otherwise misrepresent someone else's words.
    Or indeed you to ignore the “et al”.

    Surely you’re not suggesting SNP supporters didn’t use those words?
    So the Sturgeon bit is a lie then?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Alistair said:

    🔥Wow. Surprisingly refreshing take from Mhairi Black who, when asked directly by @untribalnews about my statement this week that Nicola Sturgeon et al remarks re Supreme Ct are out of the Trump playbook, said she agrees with me.

    Trouble at mill.👇🏻


    https://twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1596264003093037056

    Good grief, Sturgeon used statements like "Colony" and "Imprisoned"???

    This is huge news. When did this happen?

    I implicitly trust Alex Cole-Hamilton not to distort or otherwise misrepresent someone else's words.
    You got to remember, when SNP started this court case everyone, from both sides of the argument, were convinced it would go against them. There has been on over reaction from the Union minded commentaries that this was one hell of a beating for the SNP, it wasn’t, it actually plays well in to both a strategic framework and a pep pill into maintaining support for them.

    What the court actually clarified is that the Union is not a voluntary union. That was the main take out from the ruling. If you think this wasn’t anticipated by the SNP, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Despite what a certain poster from Scandi noir land will tell you, SNP electoral dominance is not a natural law of the universe, political power goes in cycles, especially when you have a fair amount of power and make mistakes.

    It does need continual pep pills dropped in, such as the next elections are about nothing else at all but a rally against being stuck in an involuntary Union.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    My employer was so woke it promoted a series of useless fuckwits into management.
    You worked for the Conservative Party?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    Just an idle thought, but perhaps the "war on woke" enthusiasts should reflect on their language? How about "let's moderate extreme wokeness" or something similar but more catchy? Is there really a need for a "war"? Even some of the anti-woke brigade may find "war" a bit of a turn-off.

    It is, but a bigger problem is that is focuses on woke and 'standing in its way'. It's likely to be about as successful as the war on drugs or the war on terror that way. Actually Elon Musk said it well when he said a "counter narrative" is needed. Anti-wokers instead need to be 'pro' something. When that happens, woke will move into the past.
    How about something like "Proud to be Prejudiced" or "Born Bigoted"?

    And maybe a bold inspirational symbol, such as a burning cross?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    You're quite fond of lumping people into an identity group (British) and ascribing qualities to them (good).
    I think British identity has meaning, yes, and I think our values are good ones.

    It doesn't mean I structurally treat non-Brits in the workplace or socially as inferiors, or indeed the opposite.
  • HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article on the perfidy and uselessness of Sturgeon
    https://robinmcalpine.org/when-lost-stop-following-what-led-you-here/

    Good article:

    By the time she ‘promised to intend to hold a referendum’ in the ‘first part of the next parliament’, there weren’t many modifiers left for her to shed for the purpose of escalation – her rhetorical ‘dance of the seven veils’ was getting to a point where it needed to lead to some kind of climax.
    She has only one option left now , vote for me at general election for a referendum and hope the sheeple will take yet another dose of carrots line, after that she is bust.
    Perhaps some of the lower order sychophant troughing ex labour hangers on will start to worry that their jobs are on a shoogly peg and start to do something
    Her former law professor has described her GE stunt as “simply nuts”;

    Thirdly, her claim that the next general election is to be treated in Scotland as some kind of a pretend referendum on Scottish independence is equally bizarre. The word “general” is used in the title not just because all seats are contested but because all policies offered up by the candidates are contested too. For one political party to claim it has the right to restrict the democratic process to their self-selected issue doesn’t deserve a moment’s consideration. It flies in the face of the very purpose of democratic elections. In short, it is simply nuts.

    https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/alistair-bonnington

    Were Thatcher and Major simply nuts too when they used to say if SNP had a majority of the Scottish MPs that would be sufficient for independence?
    Interesting that it was Thatcher and Major who oversaw the weakening of the Union in the first place who thought that way. Thatcher probably believed that if they didn't like Thatcherism then in the long run they might as well go. Others among us might think that if a substantial part of the country is virulently opposed to a political doctrine we should ditch the doctrine.
    Yet the SNP never won anywhere near a majority of Scottish MPs under Thatcher. It was Blair creating Holyrood that saw the SNP win most MSPs in 2007 and then it was under Cameron the SNP won most Scottish MPs in 2015.

    Major was quite popular in Scotland initially, winning 11 Scottish Tory MPs in 1992, more than the 10 Thatcher did in 1987 and the highest number of SCon MPs until May won 13 in 2017
    of course May won 13 MPs in Scotland cos Davidson was promising the softest of soft Brexits.
    No as she was standing up to the SNP refusal to respect the 2014 referendum result.

    By contrast in 2015 pre the EU referendum under Cameron the SCons only won 1 MP
    If the SCons run on a vote for us to stop indyref 2 ticket and gets royally reamed, what does that tell you and what should be the political consequences?



    https://twitter.com/Dougmcg1/status/1595777467947823105?s=20&t=1NWbmg11G88gRZiZxub6Pw
  • Just an idle thought, but perhaps the "war on woke" enthusiasts should reflect on their language? How about "let's moderate extreme wokeness" or something similar but more catchy? Is there really a need for a "war"? Even some of the anti-woke brigade may find "war" a bit of a turn-off.

    It is, but a bigger problem is that is focuses on woke and 'standing in its way'. It's likely to be about as successful as the war on drugs or the war on terror that way. Actually Elon Musk said it well when he said a "counter narrative" is needed. Anti-wokers instead need to be 'pro' something. When that happens, woke will move into the past.
    How about 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination in society' ?
    Oh, that won't do - it's the definition of 'woke'.
  • Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    All of it, or just which groups should have priority?
    I believe in understanding everyone's own perspective and then treating people as individuals.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Has anyone seen Kieffer Moore in the same room as Leondamus?


    I find Kieffer Moore irritating through no fault of his own. No commentator ever calls him just Moore, it’s always Kieffer Moore. For years I thought he was called Kieffermore, or even Keith Amor. Never once is it just Moore. And I don’t know why.
    Worry not, he's Kieffer Less from now on....
    The tournament has proved a big step up in class for many of the championship/league one journeymen in the Wales squad. Even that nutter USA have at right back is on Barcelona’s books I think.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited November 2022
    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article on the perfidy and uselessness of Sturgeon
    https://robinmcalpine.org/when-lost-stop-following-what-led-you-here/

    Good article:

    By the time she ‘promised to intend to hold a referendum’ in the ‘first part of the next parliament’, there weren’t many modifiers left for her to shed for the purpose of escalation – her rhetorical ‘dance of the seven veils’ was getting to a point where it needed to lead to some kind of climax.
    She has only one option left now , vote for me at general election for a referendum and hope the sheeple will take yet another dose of carrots line, after that she is bust.
    Perhaps some of the lower order sychophant troughing ex labour hangers on will start to worry that their jobs are on a shoogly peg and start to do something
    Her former law professor has described her GE stunt as “simply nuts”;

    Thirdly, her claim that the next general election is to be treated in Scotland as some kind of a pretend referendum on Scottish independence is equally bizarre. The word “general” is used in the title not just because all seats are contested but because all policies offered up by the candidates are contested too. For one political party to claim it has the right to restrict the democratic process to their self-selected issue doesn’t deserve a moment’s consideration. It flies in the face of the very purpose of democratic elections. In short, it is simply nuts.

    https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/alistair-bonnington

    Were Thatcher and Major simply nuts too when they used to say if SNP had a majority of the Scottish MPs that would be sufficient for independence?
    Interesting that it was Thatcher and Major who oversaw the weakening of the Union in the first place who thought that way. Thatcher probably believed that if they didn't like Thatcherism then in the long run they might as well go. Others among us might think that if a substantial part of the country is virulently opposed to a political doctrine we should ditch the doctrine.
    Yet the SNP never won anywhere near a majority of Scottish MPs under Thatcher. It was Blair creating Holyrood that saw the SNP win most MSPs in 2007 and then it was under Cameron the SNP won most Scottish MPs in 2015.

    Major was quite popular in Scotland initially, winning 11 Scottish Tory MPs in 1992, more than the 10 Thatcher did in 1987 and the highest number of SCon MPs until May won 13 in 2017
    of course May won 13 MPs in Scotland cos Davidson was promising the softest of soft Brexits.
    No as she was standing up to the SNP refusal to respect the 2014 referendum result.

    By contrast in 2015 pre the EU referendum under Cameron the SCons only won 1 MP
    If the SCons run on a vote for us to stop indyref 2 ticket and gets royally reamed, what does that tell you and what should be the political consequences?



    https://twitter.com/Dougmcg1/status/1595777467947823105?s=20&t=1NWbmg11G88gRZiZxub6Pw
    They would still likely do better than in 2015 and Scottish Labour doing significantly better than in 2015 on about 30% compared to 24%. While SNP doing worse than the 50% they got in 2015
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    It's obvious when you think about it but watching a program in uhd consumes more power.
    50 watts to 80 for uhd for my TV
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    When has an England cricketer been denied the captaincy because of their sexuality?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    Trouble is rather a lot of people would like to have a house in the first place, and the Tories have done their best to kick away the ladder and set fire to it.
    Most over 39s are home owners still, hence the Conservatives won a landslide in 2019 despite the majority of under 39s voting Labour
    Think you need to look up the meaning of 'hence' because if it means that then that also implies the Conservatives will win the next election which certainly is in doubt. 'Get Brexit done' and 'Corbyn' were (in my humble opinion) greater factors.

    True as you get older and as you buy property you are more likely to vote Tory as the Stats show (and I assume what you mean), but the word 'hence' is not right. It has a particular meaning which clearly isn't true as otherwise the Tory's would win every election where that was the case and they don't/won't.
    No, of course not. Labour could win property owners with a mortgage again as Blair did from 1997 to 2005 and Starmer looks likely to be able to where Corbyn couldn't. However most over 39s being home owners meant the Conservatives could and did win them.

    The point was home ownership is NOT the decisive point in general elections for as you say otherwise the Tories would win every general election as most voters are home owners. It is the decisive factor only why the young under 40s mostly vote Labour but as 2019 showed the Conservatives can still win losing them.

    Only if most under 50 to 55s were not home owners would it really threaten Tory chances at winning a general election and that is not currently the case
    I agree with that - thank you. And I apologise if I am being too pedantic, but as you know I (and many others) do get frustrated when you appear to deduce or imply stuff that can't be implied by the statement before. Your clarification makes it clear what you meant was it was a factor, which I agree it is and is probably a significant factor at that.

    Cheers for that. Words like hence, because, implies, therefore, etc have very specific meanings in logic and language and it can be easy for us to misinterpret what you mean.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    Braverman or Badenoch if they become the Leader of the Conservatives in likely opposition would fight a war on woke. Farage already is, as are Trump and DeSantis in the US and Meloni in Italy.

    Conservative leader Poilievre in Canada and Liberal leader Dutton in Australia have also fought wars on woke

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/aug/23/labor-defence-minister-ends-peter-duttons-war-on-wokeness-within-department

    https://www.thestar.com/amp/politics/federal/2022/09/12/pierre-poilievre-pledges-to-restore-hope-to-canadians-in-inaugural-address-to-mps.html
    Or going back a bit further our very own Sir Oswald Mosley.
  • Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    My, probably daft, theory is that having the ability to choose identities, and the importance that seems to be increasingly having on people, is a corollary of the decline of class consciousness.

    Reaganism and Thatcherism wanted us to be more individual. Well that seems to generally have worked, and that individuality has allowed people to, maybe counter-intuitively, pick and choose from a smorgasbord of identities that are more important to them as individuals. Rather than a monolithic traditional class identity (though personally I still think class is important, but perhaps unfashionable.)

    And people are now increasingly questioning the power/inclusion/whatever-ness of those identities they fell apply to them.

    Just my tuppence worth.
  • Jonathan said:

    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
    Do you not agree that's it's possible both positions are inconsistent with classic liberalism?

    I think the fact you know I'm a core Tory affects your perspective on this.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    When has an England cricketer been denied the captaincy because of their sexuality?
    How do we know?
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
    Do you not agree that's it's possible both positions are inconsistent with classic liberalism?

    I think the fact you know I'm a core Tory affects your perspective on this.
    My observation is you’re much happier with one than the other.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Alistair said:

    🔥Wow. Surprisingly refreshing take from Mhairi Black who, when asked directly by @untribalnews about my statement this week that Nicola Sturgeon et al remarks re Supreme Ct are out of the Trump playbook, said she agrees with me.

    Trouble at mill.👇🏻


    https://twitter.com/agcolehamilton/status/1596264003093037056

    Good grief, Sturgeon used statements like "Colony" and "Imprisoned"???

    This is huge news. When did this happen?

    I implicitly trust Alex Cole-Hamilton not to distort or otherwise misrepresent someone else's words.
    You got to remember, when SNP started this court case everyone, from both sides of the argument, were convinced it would go against them. There has been on over reaction from the Union minded commentaries that this was one hell of a beating for the SNP, it wasn’t, it actually plays well in to both a strategic framework and a pep pill into maintaining support for them.

    What the court actually clarified is that the Union is not a voluntary union. That was the main take out from the ruling. If you think this wasn’t anticipated by the SNP, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Despite what a certain poster from Scandi noir land will tell you, SNP electoral dominance is not a natural law of the universe, political power goes in cycles, especially when you have a fair amount of power and make mistakes.

    It does need continual pep pills dropped in, such as the next elections are about nothing else at all but a rally against being stuck in an involuntary Union.
    Here is a real politician saying what should really happen
    https://youtu.be/HPdDs5NhUD4
  • It's utterly fucking stupid posts like those from @MoonRabbit that explain why Woke gets a free ride.

    No-one dare challenge it - even mildly and reasonably at the boundaries - lest their arguments get misrepresented and they get smeared as being a bigot. It doesn't matter about the fact there's no fire - the fake smoke is enough to damn them.

    And, so, it continues.

    @williamglenn had it right when he said such people are the equivalent today of the 1970s trade unions.

    We need a new Thatch to break them.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
    Do you not agree that's it's possible both positions are inconsistent with classic liberalism?

    I think the fact you know I'm a core Tory affects your perspective on this.
    My observation is you’re much happier with one than the other.
    Absolute nonsense, and hugely insulting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Excellent political cartoon and very accurate
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    or perhaps they got the job because they were better.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
    Do you not agree that's it's possible both positions are inconsistent with classic liberalism?

    I think the fact you know I'm a core Tory affects your perspective on this.
    My observation is you’re much happier with one than the other.
    Absolute nonsense, and hugely insulting.
    Really? I certainly don’t intend to insult you. My observation is that conservatives believe in certain norms of behaviour in society and expect people to conform to those rules. The concept is quite taken for granted.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    Particularly grumpy this morning. What were you drinking last night 😎
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
  • Tres said:

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    or perhaps they got the job because they were better.

    Lol. I got two job offers as a director at top management consultancies. And I'm still at one of them over a year later.

    Dickhead.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Just an idle thought, but perhaps the "war on woke" enthusiasts should reflect on their language? How about "let's moderate extreme wokeness" or something similar but more catchy? Is there really a need for a "war"? Even some of the anti-woke brigade may find "war" a bit of a turn-off.

    It is, but a bigger problem is that is focuses on woke and 'standing in its way'. It's likely to be about as successful as the war on drugs or the war on terror that way. Actually Elon Musk said it well when he said a "counter narrative" is needed. Anti-wokers instead need to be 'pro' something. When that happens, woke will move into the past.
    How about 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination in society' ?
    Oh, that won't do - it's the definition of 'woke'.
    I think the counter movement is likely to emphasise unity across colour boundaries, and celebrating what we all bring to the table.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
    You were already on it, of course.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    Particularly grumpy this morning. What were you drinking last night 😎
    If you don't want me to be grumpy try not to be pompous and patronising (based on very little substance) whilst insulting me at the same time.

    Just a thought.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163
    I see the Tories are still blaming the civil service for being unable to implement their poorly thought out ideas.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited November 2022
    Tres said:

    I see the Tories are still blaming the civil service for being unable to implement their poorly thought out ideas.

    Yes, it is very unfair, when the civil service have been accustomed to implementing their own poorly thought out ideas.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2022

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    or perhaps they got the job because they were better.

    Lol. I got two job offers as a director at top management consultancies. And I'm still at one of them over a year later.

    Dickhead.
    congratulations on staying in a job for longer than 12 months. Have you ever thought about being a Tory cabinet minister?
  • New thread.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
    You were already on it, of course.
    A badge I wear with honour.

    When you’re wibbling like this you bring to mind a character of Bob Mortimer’s from the excellent Athletico Mince podcast.

    The character’s called Neil Hunt, and his occupation is ‘Nonsense Potter’. I love that - Nonsense Potter - you instantly conjure up on your mind the kind of tat this guy makes and flogs to gullible idiots in his shop.

    Anyway, Mortimer portrays this guy Neil Hunt as an uptight, thin-skinned, quick to anger and quick to take offence Southerner. Verbally aggressive but physically weak. Resorts to ludicrous insults when threatened - ‘Don’t you dare mess with me, my brother-in-law owns a sword shop!’

    It’s all aural obviously, being a podcast, but Mortimer brilliantly uses a kind of strangulated voice, like a bloke on the edge of a massive coronary over the most inconsequential matters, to portray this character.

    When you’re in full flow Neil Hunt’s voice fills my head when I read your comments.
  • Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    or perhaps they got the job because they were better.

    Lol. I got two job offers as a director at top management consultancies. And I'm still at one of them over a year later.

    Dickhead.
    congratulations on staying in a job for longer than 12 months. Have you ever thought about being a Tory cabinet minister?
    You were on my idiot list from virtually the first post you ever made on here.

    You add zero value to the site.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
    I’m not having a say in topics like woke war and Scot Independence or anything in this forum for likes 🙂 I do so because I sure have honest Gen Zee opinions to helpfully add - and whilst I’m sure of it useful to debate, social media style bullying will just bounce off me.

    I actually have no problem getting the thumbs down when posting on ConHome - Purple Hearts are awarded for good reason in this world 💜 It can’t be sweetness and light and laughter all the time if we serious about ripping it apart and getting it right.
  • Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
    I’m not having a say in topics like woke war and Scot Independence or anything in this forum for likes 🙂 I do so because I sure have honest Gen Zee opinions to helpfully add - and whilst I’m sure of it useful to debate, social media style bullying will just bounce off me.

    I actually have no problem getting the thumbs down when posting on ConHome - Purple Hearts are awarded for good reason in this world 💜 It can’t be sweetness and light and laughter all the time if we serious about ripping it apart and getting it right.
    Here's your problem: you're not ripping it apart and getting it right; you're just smearing and getting it badly wrong.

    It's very telling you're part of Generation Z - a generation whose minds have been so addled by this they are incapable of thinking straight about it. In fact, they don't think at all about it - just condemn.

    It's easy to go along with the orthodoxy and champion it; it's much harder to have your own mind.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    Genuine question: are you thick?

    Pursue this line of 'debate' with me and I'll simply add you to my idiot list and cease to engage with you on the subject.

    Love and kisses x
    Thank you. That’s my point exactly.

    Come mothers and fathers
    Throughout the land
    And don't criticize
    What you can't understand
    Your sons and your daughters
    Are beyond your command
    Your old road is rapidly agin'
    Please get out of the new one
    If you can't lend your hand
    For the times they are a-changin'
    Come senators, congressmen
    Please heed the call
    Don't stand in the doorway
    Don't block up the hall
    For he that gets hurt
    Will be he who has stalled
    The battle outside ragin'
    Will soon shake your windows
    And rattle your walls
    For the times they are a-changin'

    For the times are always continually changing, as there’s always people standing in doorways and blocking up halls to prevent it - perfectly convinced in their own minds they are right to. But they are soon dust, and the times go on a changing.

    Good debating society this one, isn’t it, where we go hard for the ball not the player, and still share love and kisses with our fellow debaters 😘
    Cheers - I've added you to my idiot list. And don't try the player not the ball argument with me - you were quite happy to infer I was a disguised homophobe.

    You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it) because you've demonstrated yourself to be quite happy to misrepresent others in pursuit of a dogma you are incapable of independently analysing.

    What a shame.
    ‘You've also lost my respect for you (and, believe you me, that's a big deal and you should be concerned by it)’

    Thoughts and prayers @MoonRabbit. A bitter blow.
    You were already on it, of course.
    A badge I wear with honour.

    When you’re wibbling like this you bring to mind a character of Bob Mortimer’s from the excellent Athletico Mince podcast.

    The character’s called Neil Hunt, and his occupation is ‘Nonsense Potter’. I love that - Nonsense Potter - you instantly conjure up on your mind the kind of tat this guy makes and flogs to gullible idiots in his shop.

    Anyway, Mortimer portrays this guy Neil Hunt as an uptight, thin-skinned, quick to anger and quick to take offence Southerner. Verbally aggressive but physically weak. Resorts to ludicrous insults when threatened - ‘Don’t you dare mess with me, my brother-in-law owns a sword shop!’

    It’s all aural obviously, being a podcast, but Mortimer brilliantly uses a kind of strangulated voice, like a bloke on the edge of a massive coronary over the most inconsequential matters, to portray this character.

    When you’re in full flow Neil Hunt’s voice fills my head when I read your comments.
    Whilst it’s true people can bring their moods, grumpy or happy into debating rooms like this, so will never be consistent day to day, and our idiot lists will change as frequently as our favourite book or film lists will, I can say in one year here I have completely flipped my view of so many posters, from what it originally was, and after hearing other views across more broad range of topics, in so much as to be sure, in the bigger picture, my honest views and casino’s posts are often so very close match.

    But that doesn’t particularly worry me as much as I have just realised I’m out of fresh lemons 😆

    Laters.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    From my perspective the last 50 years have seen dominant political hierarchies shift.

    Conservative right used to be quite comfortable telling people how to dress, how to address people, what to believe , where someone sits in the natural hierarchy, what constitutes common sense and who and how to love.

    They don’t like the same thing happening to them now they’re not quite do dominant.

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cookie said:

    pillsbury said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thought experiment is what the Tories will run on at the next election.

    The country is an utter mess, don’t let Labour ruin it.
    Vote for five more years of Conservative stability.
    Your taxes are the highest they have ever been.

    What’s going to be the offer to secure that third/fourth term?

    Perhaps "Brexit is in peril", which is why Starmer isn't going there. But by 2024 the overwhelming reply might be "excellent".

    Probably "War on woke".

    Economically, green shoots and a penny off the tax rate.

    (That will be a recycling of the tax taken by freezing thresholds, but it sounds good).
    "War on woke" is dead in the water. Even PB can only manage two enthusiasts. Johnson would have gone on SKS, Savile Enabler, Sunak won't. SKS,Corbyn Promoter is going to be looking a bit elderly by then. Don't Let Labour Screw Up The Recovery, don't believe their whining about no deals with the SNP, don't let them steal your house for IHT.
    It's not that I wouldn't support a war on woke. It's that I've seen no evidence whatsoever over the past 14 years that the Tories have any intention of fighting it. The only card they have to play is that they are slightly grumpier about rolling over to the forces of woke than the other parties.
    I think it's more that they can't - there's a limit to what can be done through votes in parliament alone.

    Most of the professional middle-class supports it, or at least acquiesces in it, and they run everything. The generation coming up positively revel in it like a theology.

    There is a solution: advance a consistent political argument against it in public debate and the media for several years until public opinion starts to shift, like Margaret Thatcher did in the late 70s/early 80s, but our politicians have neither the talent nor patience to do that these days.
    But what is woke? It’s never been completely clear what we’re supposed to be getting angry about. It feels like a catch all for things that right wingers do not like.
    I'm thinking of saving a definition on my desktop I can copy and paste into the thread whenever someone asks this.

    It's obsessing and wallowing in what identity group an individual sits in, and treating them differently in the perceived power hierarchy of those groups, rather than treating them as an individual.

    I profoundly disagree with it.
    Sounds like you’re talking about identity politics. The right have done that for years.
    If in doubt fall back on your partisan comfort zone and what-about it.

    Sigh.
    Do you not agree that's it's possible both positions are inconsistent with classic liberalism?

    I think the fact you know I'm a core Tory affects your perspective on this.
    My observation is you’re much happier with one than the other.
    Absolute nonsense, and hugely insulting.
    Really? I certainly don’t intend to insult you. My observation is that conservatives believe in certain norms of behaviour in society and expect people to conform to those rules. The concept is quite taken for granted.
    Made worse by the way that the Conservatives are now the party of grumpy boomers and almost nobody else, in a way that didn't happen before.

    As a generation, boomers have been making the cultural weather since their teens. They fought the culture wars of the sixties and seventies and largely won them. That creates two problems, though.

    One is that they are now in the position of being the grumpy old gits, which is not comfortable. The idea that there are social ills they didn't solve isn't easy.

    The other is the glimpse of the Grim Reaper on the horizon. That they will be taken where they don't want to go, for maybe the first time ever. See the sense that political and social pendulums are in the optimal place and must never be moved again.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    IanB2 said:

    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    You know, Wales can still win the group.

    If the US draws against Iran, then the US has 3 points, and Iran 4, with the US having zero goal difference and Iran -4.

    If Wales then beats England 4-0, then they move up to 4 points as well, with +2 goal difference, while England drops 0 goal difference. (A 3-0 victory would not be enough, as England would then win on goals scored. However, something like 6-3 would be enough for Wales I think.)

    If the US draws Iran, then any victory by Wales sends them through due to Iran's rubbish goal difference.

    F. F. S.

    Football teams are plural, not singular.

    I know you live in LA but you don’t need to adopt their grammar.

    I have said this over and again.

    Even Nick Palmer - Nick Palmer of Godalming, Surrey, England - was doing this recently.

    Somebody make it stop. 🤮
    Shouldn't immigrants integrate with their host society?

    Honestly, both plural and singular can be correct for this, per the official rules of the language.
    No. Although grammarians might say that, plural is the only form sanctioned by usage here. No style guides would allow singular.

    Depends on American or British English:

    https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/

    Also on meaning intended. Are they acting collectively “the team are playing well” or individually “the team is not passing the ball enough”. Whichever, don’t mix collective & singular in the same sentence.

    My point is that in British English usage, it’s plural
    IanB2 said:

    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    You know, Wales can still win the group.

    If the US draws against Iran, then the US has 3 points, and Iran 4, with the US having zero goal difference and Iran -4.

    If Wales then beats England 4-0, then they move up to 4 points as well, with +2 goal difference, while England drops 0 goal difference. (A 3-0 victory would not be enough, as England would then win on goals scored. However, something like 6-3 would be enough for Wales I think.)

    If the US draws Iran, then any victory by Wales sends them through due to Iran's rubbish goal difference.

    F. F. S.

    Football teams are plural, not singular.

    I know you live in LA but you don’t need to adopt their grammar.

    I have said this over and again.

    Even Nick Palmer - Nick Palmer of Godalming, Surrey, England - was doing this recently.

    Somebody make it stop. 🤮
    Shouldn't immigrants integrate with their host society?

    Honestly, both plural and singular can be correct for this, per the official rules of the language.
    No. Although grammarians might say that, plural is the only form sanctioned by usage here. No style guides would allow singular.

    Depends on American or British English:

    https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/

    Also on meaning intended. Are they acting collectively “the team are playing well” or individually “the team is not passing the ball enough”. Whichever, don’t mix collective & singular in the same sentence.

    My point is that in British English usage, sports teams are plural. The singular that slips in - only on PB - grates.




    No, in British English the usual approach is for singular usage when the team is acting as a unit and plural usage when acting individually.
    No. England are playing well. England are playing poorly.
    Just saying no isn't a convincing argument.
    Go look it up.
    The two examples you give would (arguably) take

    plural usage, because the playing is done individually. But "England is poised to reach the

    final" is the correct usage, because the team can only reach the final as a unit. Similarly, "England

    is facing elimination".
    Utter garbage. Only on PB would “England IS poised…” be the usage.

    Not a single newspaper style guide in this country would allow such an Americanism. Feel free to have the last word, because I’m bored of this now.



  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,880

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    You speaking up for maintaining a status quo where the best Captain for English Mens cricket can’t get the gig, because they are gay?

    In your opinion glass ceilings like that are a natural law of the universe?
    WTF? Which best captain is that?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    what about the identity group of white males who believe they have been passed over for promotion because of their employers diversity policies?

    This isn't a "belief" this actually happens and did so to me in my last job, and was a key reason why I left - my last employer who made @kinabalu and @Dura_Ace look like @Leon

    It's real, it's happening, it's a problem and it's right on your doorstep.
    or perhaps they got the job because they were better.

    Lol. I got two job offers as a director at top management consultancies. And I'm still at one of them over a year later.

    Dickhead.
    So you're hardly a victim of oppression, then.
    Just chose an employer you preferred.

    Isn't that how the market works ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    If not 'literally', then the resemblance is remarkable.

    Bakhmut is literally the Passchendaele of the XXI Century.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1596485403279855617
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793

    Sadiq Khan is planning to roll out a “Singapore-style” network of toll roads across London once drivers have switched to electric vehicles.

    The London mayor said that road pricing will be introduced to replace the congestion charge and levies for the Ultra-low emission zone (Ulez) that could use a network of cameras across the capital.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/25/whole-london-hit-ulez-expansion-ordered-sadiq-khan/

    Who'd have thought Sadiq Khan would be the one to deliver Singapore-on-Thames?
    What they never tell you is that a significant proportion of the energy required to charge EVs is from fossil fuels.
    Important to bear in mind how much.

    Right now, 38% of electricity generation in the UK is coming from CCGT (the least carbon-generating form of fossil fuel energy production). Almost all the rest is wind and nuclear.

    At 480gCO2e/kWh for CCGT (probably better with improved technology; this figure is pre-2011 and the Parliamentary report mentioned more modern estimates of 360gCO2e/kWh), then each kWh "costs" under 140g. Which gives about 36g/km for a pretty average EV (pretty much all should fall in the 1-50g band that's the lowest emitting one for VED).


This discussion has been closed.