Some harsh realities on the Monarchy from Prof John Curtice – politicalbetting.com

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

TimS said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

FPT on Herefordshire


Yes, Herefordshire does not have an Ipswich or Felixtowe like Suffolk, nor an Exeter like Devon, or a St Austell or a Camborne or a horrible old mining shithole like places in Northumberland, nor the saunas of Plymouth

There is not one single horrible town in Herefordshire. Not one. It can be poor or run down but it is always picturesque, there is no industry, there are no high rise buildings, there is no real motorway - which is what Pevsner was driving at, and he is still right

Aesthetically it is closer to a lost but lovely part of France, like, say, Lozere

“As one stands on Worcestershire Beacon looking North across the M5 towards the Vale of Evesham the flat vista is only interrupted by Bredon Hill. Turn around and one is met with undulating magnificence all the way to Hay Bluff.

Hereford, Leominster, Ledbury and Bromyard are tired. Ross is returning to its majestic splendour. Perhaps the rest will follow.”

The Lozère comparison is apt. Or somewhere a big greener and less stark, like Corrèze. It is the Limousin of England.

I disagree that Hereford or Ledbury are tired (not been to the others recently). Hereford in particular has perked up no end since the 1990s.

Looking North from the Beacon? I'm not sure on that one? East perhaps?

I would put Leominster ahead of Ross. There are some very run down and badly planned areas of Ross in a way you don't get in Leominster.

sarissa said:

OT - emboldened by last night’s result, I’m now going to Florence in three weeks’ time. Any recommendations for non touristy restaurants or cafés?

Also, the Uffizi and Galleria dell’Accademia are on my list. See them with the guided tour or solo with guidebook?

Mexicanpete said:

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

TimS said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

FPT on Herefordshire


Yes, Herefordshire does not have an Ipswich or Felixtowe like Suffolk, nor an Exeter like Devon, or a St Austell or a Camborne or a horrible old mining shithole like places in Northumberland, nor the saunas of Plymouth

There is not one single horrible town in Herefordshire. Not one. It can be poor or run down but it is always picturesque, there is no industry, there are no high rise buildings, there is no real motorway - which is what Pevsner was driving at, and he is still right

Aesthetically it is closer to a lost but lovely part of France, like, say, Lozere

“As one stands on Worcestershire Beacon looking North across the M5 towards the Vale of Evesham the flat vista is only interrupted by Bredon Hill. Turn around and one is met with undulating magnificence all the way to Hay Bluff.

Hereford, Leominster, Ledbury and Bromyard are tired. Ross is returning to its majestic splendour. Perhaps the rest will follow.”

The Lozère comparison is apt. Or somewhere a big greener and less stark, like Corrèze. It is the Limousin of England.

I disagree that Hereford or Ledbury are tired (not been to the others recently). Hereford in particular has perked up no end since the 1990s.

Looking North from the Beacon? I'm not sure on that one? East perhaps?

I would put Leominster ahead of Ross. There are some very run down and badly planned areas of Ross in a way you don't get in Leominster.

Around the Market House in Ross has perked up no end over the last couple of years. Around by Morrisons is pretty sad. Bromyard is the saddest of the lot, followed by Ledbury. Great antique shops in Leominster. Perhaps I am being unfair to Leominster.

jamesdoyle said:

The perennial challenge to republicans is who would you prefer as president.
So the mental test is to find an age-equivalent to each generation of the Royals that would make an acceptable alternative.
For QE2, the obvious alt is David Attenborough: widely respected, has excelled in many fields, apolitical but passionate.
for KC3, I'd suggest Joanna Lumley: bit of a national treasure, has espoused causes dear to both sides of the political divide, eloquent and forthright.
It gets more difficult now, because younger generations haven't had a chance to prove themselves (this is where monarchy has an advantage, because they don't have to prove themselves, just be)
So for the PoW, perhaps a little levity?
Ben Whishaw. The quintessentially British Q in the Bond franchise, plus - and what could be more timely? - the voice of Paddington. 'Thank you, m'am'. Also of course the first (openly) LGBT+ head of state. A bit cryptic on political views, but understandably so.
After that, who knows? Widen it to the Commonwealth, and go for Malala Yousafzai? But by the time someone from that generation is needed, hopefully someone will have made themselves known.

An interesting thought experiment, I hope.

Leon said:

TimS said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

These polls while still having the monarchy ahead are out of date.

A Yougov poll in the last few days has 64% wanting to keep the monarchy, with the monarchy miles ahead with Tories and LDs and even ahead amongst Labour voters and under 25s.

Another poll has 63% thinking Charles will make a good King

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1569698859831508995?s=20&t=GHvXQt4xv4UVVPHygnUppw

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1569607557727092736?s=20&t=GHvXQt4xv4UVVPHygnUppw

Momentary hiccups, given the current situation. See what it is like in a year.

The thought of President Johnson or President Blair will be enough to make little difference. Having a royal family is a key part of British identity

Hmm, you're suddenly admitting your great hero for the last few years is, erm ...

Royal Families are profoundly un-British. Goes against the self-respect, love of freedom, the Cromwellian tradition, Nonconformism that made modern Britain. A supposed English patriot such as you would indubitably go back to the proper old tradition of the elected Kings of Anglo-Saxon times.

Rubbish, we are not America, America is a freedom loving, ultra capitalist nation founded by Puritan nonconformists and with a strong Cromwellian tradition against monarchy and aristocracy that led to the American revolution. The UK is a heritage and tradition loving nation that loves its NHS and has a significant welfare state to moderate the capitalist economy and which loves its royal family too. Indeed so much we returned to a monarchy as soon as we could after Cromwell

Also, people would FIGHT for a monarchy. I would. Not out of any love for any individual - Prince Andrew can go jump in the Serpentine tomorrow - but out of love for Britain and British history which is so intimately bound up with our status as a constitutional monarchy. If you tear that away you destroy something
exquisite and unique and alive, like ripping out the nervous system of an animal and expecting it to be fine with shop-bought electronics as a replacement

Fuck that. Fuck republicanism

I don’t think anyone will ever fight over the monarchy. If we get a republic in due course it’ll just happen. Britain will be ready. If we don’t, nobody will care enough to fight for a republic.

No, I would fight. The idea of a republic is so abominable, I would fight. I’m not joking

However you are right that this prospect is so distant the question is not worth asking

ydoethur said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

The day Trump dies/is executed, I will cheerfully stop any American and tell them how happy I am for them.

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

thart said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

Bbc has been way off the mark treating us like we are the all white britain of the 1950s not a modern multiethnic democracy. The nearly all white queues for the coffin show that ethnic minorities arent as enthused by the monarchy...thats good and fine but it will be a problem for the monarchy going forward

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

paulyork64 said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

These polls while still having the monarchy ahead are out of date.

A Yougov poll in the last few days has 64% wanting to keep the monarchy, with the monarchy miles ahead with Tories and LDs and even ahead amongst Labour voters and under 25s.

Another poll has 63% thinking Charles will make a good King

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1569698859831508995?s=20&t=GHvXQt4xv4UVVPHygnUppw

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1569607557727092736?s=20&t=GHvXQt4xv4UVVPHygnUppw

Momentary hiccups, given the current situation. See what it is like in a year.

The thought of President Johnson or President Blair will be enough to make little difference. Having a royal family is a key part of British identity

Hmm, you're suddenly admitting your great hero for the last few years is, erm ...

Royal Families are profoundly un-British. Goes against the self-respect, love of freedom, the Cromwellian tradition, Nonconformism that made modern Britain. A supposed English patriot such as you would indubitably go back to the proper old tradition of the elected Kings of Anglo-Saxon times.

Cromwellian tradition? Please elaborate. Very few of us are Puritans. And i don't remember him being a lover of freedom.

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

ydoethur said:

Mexicanpete said:

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

TimS said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

FPT on Herefordshire


Yes, Herefordshire does not have an Ipswich or Felixtowe like Suffolk, nor an Exeter like Devon, or a St Austell or a Camborne or a horrible old mining shithole like places in Northumberland, nor the saunas of Plymouth

There is not one single horrible town in Herefordshire. Not one. It can be poor or run down but it is always picturesque, there is no industry, there are no high rise buildings, there is no real motorway - which is what Pevsner was driving at, and he is still right

Aesthetically it is closer to a lost but lovely part of France, like, say, Lozere

“As one stands on Worcestershire Beacon looking North across the M5 towards the Vale of Evesham the flat vista is only interrupted by Bredon Hill. Turn around and one is met with undulating magnificence all the way to Hay Bluff.

Hereford, Leominster, Ledbury and Bromyard are tired. Ross is returning to its majestic splendour. Perhaps the rest will follow.”

The Lozère comparison is apt. Or somewhere a big greener and less stark, like Corrèze. It is the Limousin of England.

I disagree that Hereford or Ledbury are tired (not been to the others recently). Hereford in particular has perked up no end since the 1990s.

Looking North from the Beacon? I'm not sure on that one? East perhaps?

I would put Leominster ahead of Ross. There are some very run down and badly planned areas of Ross in a way you don't get in Leominster.

Around the Market House in Ross has perked up no end over the last couple of years. Around by Morrisons is pretty sad. Bromyard is the saddest of the lot, followed by Ledbury. Great antique shops in Leominster. Perhaps I am being unfair to Leominster.

You've got that wonderful street in Ross coming up to the church up that hill from the west, although even there a few gaps have opened (what a loss the Chase Hotel was).

But the area on the west side is just awful. Morrisons isn't great, but nor are the streets from there to the hill, and don't get me started on the industrial estates where the station was on the road to Weston.

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most latin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

Foxy said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Religion doesn't require rituals, indeed the revolutionary force of Protestantism and of Islam was in part a reaction to the idolatry of liturgical religion with its costumes, idols and statues. As indeed was the motivating force or political revolutionaries. It is no coincidence that revolutionaries so often start with shooting priests.

Ritual is how rich people bend religion to serve the hierarchy.

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Most democracies in the world today are republics.

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most latin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Yes, I think this is very insightful.

I've been dealing with friends and relatives the last week who want to talk about it all the same way I deal with friends and relatives who want to talk about God. I smile and nod and respect their beliefs, whilst secretly thinking they're a bit mad.

As you say, some are hardwired for it and some aren't. I'm definitely not, though that doesn't make me wish for a President or a republic. Just a reduction in volume from 11 back to the quiet 3 or 4 the monarchy usually enjoys in our lives. If the whole country was suddenly obsessed with the archbishop of canterbury I would feel the same way...

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Religion doesn't require rituals, indeed the revolutionary force of Protestantism and of Islam was in part a reaction to the idolatry of liturgical religion with its costumes, idols and statues. As indeed was the motivating force or political revolutionaries. It is no coincidence that revolutionaries so often start with shooting priests.

Ritual is how rich people bend religion to serve the hierarchy.

A childishly silly comment. Religion is all about rituals

What do you think regular Islamic prayer is? The muezzin? The kow towing? The washing and the greeting and the clothing and the submitting? It is daily life as ritual

Likewise, Protestant Christianity merely replaced the more overt outwards symbolism of Catholicism - smells and bells and icons - with an internalised ritual of words. The creeds and catechisms,. Hymn 138. The Book of Common Prayer. The Churching of Women. The idea it is not full of ritual is nonsensical. Religion IS ritual

You need to find a stupider forum to chat in

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Most democracies in the world today are republics.

Most dictatorships in the world today are republics

TimS said:

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Most democracies in the world today are republics.

Most dictatorships in the world today are republics

To be statistically fair, most countries in the world are republics.

What is true is that there are few absolutist monarchies with a dictator wearing the crown. Saudi, North Korea, UAE, Brunei, one or two micro-states. There are a few authoritarian monarchies with some semblance of democratic representation: Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, Morocco. Then a number of Western European democracies which probably skew the stats a bit. The rest of the world is republics.

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most latin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

No the alternative is ultra selfish, self obsessed narcissists with no respect for anyone else, or society or in time the law.

Elizabeth and indeed Charles to some extent are emblems of a leadership based on service, you certainly never saw the Queen on a billionaire's yacht or mixing only with celebrities, most of the time they were and are out and about meeting ordinary people without the deep division a party political head of state brings

Are you describing Americans there....by the way if you havent noticed there are many self obsessed narcissists in the uk now...look at love island....got nothing to do with monarchy

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting

Religion doesn't require rituals, indeed the revolutionary force of Protestantism and of Islam was in part a reaction to the idolatry of liturgical religion with its costumes, idols and statues. As indeed was the motivating force or political revolutionaries. It is no coincidence that revolutionaries so often start with shooting priests.

Ritual is how rich people bend religion to serve the hierarchy.

Protestantism and Islam seem pretty ritualistic to me. What you are describing seems more simplifying the rituals of gaudy trappings, for new ones. A common enough occurence in revolutionary religion, I'm sure, but they still engage in what are pretty obviously ritual behaviours, vary though they might.

Your follow up, which I add below, is still describing ritual behaviour, you seem to be just saying 'Well these rituals are ok because they are different'. A relative lack of 'fripperies' doesn't make your or Islam's rituals less ritualistic, nor does the intent change that.

Yes Islam and Protestantism have forms of religious observance, but these are based on a community of believers equal in the sight of God. The arcane fripperies of traditional liturgy are just a barrier. They serve to put an establishment in control of events and to endorse existing social structures.

Ritual: a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.

That yours about 'a community of believers equal in the sight of God' doesn't make them not a ritual. Why would it? That doesn't even make sense.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TimS said:

Question: is North Korea a monarchy? I’d say yes: it has a hereditary ruler, is now in its third generation of succession, and it’s unthinkable that the next leader in the current regime could be anything other than a son or daughter of Kim Jong un.

There is perhaps more choice invested in the king over his successor than in most monarchies: he could choose to bestow the crown on a favoured nephew, or a second child. But that happened in the Middle Ages too, and it’s pretty much the way of things in the house of Saud.

NK should just accept reality and consider itself an absolutist monarchy.

North Korea is the classic socialist monarchy!

MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:

Modi shaking hands with Putin on the news.

Twat.

Throw them out of the Commonwealth.

No, as while Modi may still deal with Putin, he also still hates Xi and we need India to contain China

Just hours before news of Queen Elizabeth II’s death spread, Prime Minister Narendra Modi delivered a fiery speech urging India to shed its colonial ties in a ceremony to rename a boulevard that once honored King George V.

Rajpath, formerly called Kingsway, was a “symbol of slavery” under the British Raj, he said. Instead, under the newly named Kartavya Path that leads to the iconic India Gate, “a new history has been created,” Modi beamed.

His speech last Thursday was the latest in a concerted drive to purge India of its colonial relics. It was also a clear sign that the country, once the largest of Britain’s colonies that endured two centuries of imperial rule, has moved on.

The renovated avenue now boasts a black granite statue of Indian freedom fighter Subhas Chandra Bose, in the place where a mold of King George V, Elizabeth’s grandfather, once stood.

The queen’s death provoked sympathies to a deeply respected figure from some while for a few others, it jogged memories of a bloody history under the British crown. But among most regular Indians, the news was met with an indifferent shrug.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/once-britains-largest-colony-india-meets-queen-elizabeths-death-with-indifference

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TimS said:

Question: is North Korea a monarchy? I’d say yes: it has a hereditary ruler, is now in its third generation of succession, and it’s unthinkable that the next leader in the current regime could be anything other than a son or daughter of Kim Jong un.

There is perhaps more choice invested in the king over his successor than in most monarchies: he could choose to bestow the crown on a favoured nephew, or a second child. But that happened in the Middle Ages too, and it’s pretty much the way of things in the house of Saud.

NK should just accept reality and consider itself an absolutist monarchy.

North Korea is the classic socialist monarchy!

MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!

North Korea is a republic, as is Cuba, as is Vietnam, as was the USSR and East Germany and Mao's China and most other bastions of communism or socialism.

Ultra capitalist states like the USA or Singapore tend to be republics with a few absolute monarches in the Middle East, constitutional monarchies are virtually all in the middle somewhere, neither uber capitalist or uber socialist

Your Monarchism makes you a Socialist!

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:

Modi shaking hands with Putin on the news.

Twat.

Throw them out of the Commonwealth.

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most latin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

No the alternative is ultra selfish, self obsessed narcissists with no respect for anyone else, or society or in time the law.

Elizabeth and indeed Charles to some extent are emblems of a leadership based on service, you certainly never saw the Queen on a billionaire's yacht or mixing only with celebrities, most of the time they were and are out and about meeting ordinary people without the deep division a party political head of state brings

Are you describing Americans there....by the way if you havent noticed there are many self obsessed narcissists in the uk now...look at love island....got nothing to do with monarchy

And give them an election for head of state that may be who you get, another self obsessed narcissist. Elections do not always lead us to elect the best leaders, often they reduce us to our worst gut instincts, constitutional monarchy at least ensures our head of state is beyond politics and just a ceremonial figurehead

Thats just a criticism of democracy generally though

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TimS said:

Question: is North Korea a monarchy? I’d say yes: it has a hereditary ruler, is now in its third generation of succession, and it’s unthinkable that the next leader in the current regime could be anything other than a son or daughter of Kim Jong un.

There is perhaps more choice invested in the king over his successor than in most monarchies: he could choose to bestow the crown on a favoured nephew, or a second child. But that happened in the Middle Ages too, and it’s pretty much the way of things in the house of Saud.

NK should just accept reality and consider itself an absolutist monarchy.

North Korea is the classic socialist monarchy!

MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!

North Korea is a republic, as is Cuba, as is Vietnam

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:

Modi shaking hands with Putin on the news.

Twat.

Throw them out of the Commonwealth.

No, as while Modi may still deal with Putin, he also still hates Xi and we need India to contain China

Just hours before news of Queen Elizabeth II’s death spread, Prime Minister Narendra Modi delivered a fiery speech urging India to shed its colonial ties in a ceremony to rename a boulevard that once honored King George V.

Rajpath, formerly called Kingsway, was a “symbol of slavery” under the British Raj, he said. Instead, under the newly named Kartavya Path that leads to the iconic India Gate, “a new history has been created,” Modi beamed.

His speech last Thursday was the latest in a concerted drive to purge India of its colonial relics. It was also a clear sign that the country, once the largest of Britain’s colonies that endured two centuries of imperial rule, has moved on.

The renovated avenue now boasts a black granite statue of Indian freedom fighter Subhas Chandra Bose, in the place where a mold of King George V, Elizabeth’s grandfather, once stood.

The queen’s death provoked sympathies to a deeply respected figure from some while for a few others, it jogged memories of a bloody history under the British crown. But among most regular Indians, the news was met with an indifferent shrug.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/once-britains-largest-colony-india-meets-queen-elizabeths-death-with-indifference

So what, India has been an independent state and republic for decades, how it wants to name its monuments is up to the Indian government, though notably Modi paid tribute to the Queen too and will likely be there on Monday.

However realpolitik also means that the West alone is not strong enough to contain Xi's China now (even if it is still strong enough to contain Putin's Russia). It needs India alongside

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TimS said:

Question: is North Korea a monarchy? I’d say yes: it has a hereditary ruler, is now in its third generation of succession, and it’s unthinkable that the next leader in the current regime could be anything other than a son or daughter of Kim Jong un.

There is perhaps more choice invested in the king over his successor than in most monarchies: he could choose to bestow the crown on a favoured nephew, or a second child. But that happened in the Middle Ages too, and it’s pretty much the way of things in the house of Saud.

NK should just accept reality and consider itself an absolutist monarchy.

North Korea is the classic socialist monarchy!

MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!

North Korea is a republic, as is Cuba, as is Vietnam, as was the USSR and East Germany and Mao's China and most other bastions of communism or socialism.

Ultra capitalist states like the USA or Singapore tend to be republics with a few absolute monarches in the Middle East, constitutional monarchies are virtually all in the middle somewhere, neither uber capitalist or uber socialist

Your Monarchism makes you a Socialist!

Dynamo said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most latin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

No the alternative is ultra selfish, self obsessed narcissists with no respect for anyone else, or society or in time the law.

Elizabeth and indeed Charles to some extent are emblems of a leadership based on service, you certainly never saw the Queen on a billionaire's yacht or mixing only with celebrities, most of the time they were and are out and about meeting ordinary people without the deep division a party political head of state brings

Are you describing Americans there....by the way if you havent noticed there are many self obsessed narcissists in the uk now...look at love island....got nothing to do with monarchy

And give them an election for head of state that may be who you get, another self obsessed narcissist. Elections do not always lead us to elect the best leaders, often they reduce us to our worst gut instincts, constitutional monarchy at least ensures our head of state is beyond politics and just a ceremonial figurehead

Who figures ceremonially at the masthead by divine right?

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most lhismatin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

No the alternative is ultra selfish, self obsessed narcissists with no respect for anyone else, or society or in time the law.

Elizabeth and indeed Charles to some extent are emblems of a leadership based on service, you certainly never saw the Queen on a billionaire's yacht or mixing only with celebrities, most of the time they were and are out and about meeting ordinary people without the deep division a party political head of state brings

Are you describing Americans there....by the way if you havent noticed there are many self obsessed narcissists in the uk now...look at love island....got nothing to do with monarchy

And give them an election for head of state that may be who you get, another self obsessed narcissist. Elections do not always lead us to elect the best leaders, often they reduce us to our worst gut instincts, constitutional monarchy at least ensures our head of state is beyond politics and just a ceremonial figurehead

Who figures ceremonially at the masthead by divine right?

Better the divine than the gutter

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

thart said:

HYUFD said:

Dynamo said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

It is soft power, but you should hear what my Latin American friends say about it. One said the crowds were like dogs, which I thought was unfair to dogs because I love dogs. Most have observed that the royal family themselves don't care a tinker's cuss for the capdoffers who are mourning their late head of house, and that said capdoffers are so effing stupid not to realise.

Given most Latin American heads of state were either Fascist dictators or Communist dictators until recently and some in areas like Cuba or Venezuala still are (with Trump of the Tropics Bolsonaro in Brazil), we don't need any lectures from them about our former Queen

Most lhismatin american countries are dysfunctional at best but there is still an inbuilt servility amongst a large proportion of our population...not so much in the young or ethnic minorities though

There is nothing wrong with some servility, the alternative is anarchy

No wrong the alternative is a strong confident people who tell the truth to power...not pathetically bowing and scraping to inherited wealth and power

No the alternative is ultra selfish, self obsessed narcissists with no respect for anyone else, or society or in time the law.

Elizabeth and indeed Charles to some extent are emblems of a leadership based on service, you certainly never saw the Queen on a billionaire's yacht or mixing only with celebrities, most of the time they were and are out and about meeting ordinary people without the deep division a party political head of state brings

Are you describing Americans there....by the way if you havent noticed there are many self obsessed narcissists in the uk now...look at love island....got nothing to do with monarchy

And give them an election for head of state that may be who you get, another self obsessed narcissist. Elections do not always lead us to elect the best leaders, often they reduce us to our worst gut instincts, constitutional monarchy at least ensures our head of state is beyond politics and just a ceremonial figurehead

Who figures ceremonially at the masthead by divine right?

Better the divine than the gutter

Your Monarchism STILL makes you a Socialist!

Leon said:

Something happened in Westminster Hall?!

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

Leon said:

kyf_100 said:

solarflare said:

The problem the monarchy have is a bit like the ref in football - your best days are the ones where you're mostly in the background not really getting noticed just letting the game flow. And as soon as you start getting fussy and officious everyone boos you.

Agree. Quite happy for the monarchy to carry on doing its thing as it has for all my lifetime, but the wall to wall coverage of the last few days makes me wonder if the rest of the world nods and smiles to itself going, yep, North Korea.

We laugh at other countries for their cult of personality and yet eagerly lap it up here. The monarchy works best when it works quietly in the background - part of the nation's soft power. Bringing it front and centre in this way just makes us look like a third world dictatorship.

True story:

I just got stopped on my way into my v pleasant Seville apartment by the woman who manages it. I thought I’d done something wrong, let burglars in through the roof terrace or something, but no, she stopped me because she wanted to earnestly express her condolences on the death of Ze Queen, Your Queen, i am Zo Zorry

She really meant it. She looked personally sad. Much sadder than me

Can you imagine doing that to any foreigner on the death of any foreign personage? Americans for JFK perhaps, but after that, nope

That is soft power. Foreigners do not look at Britain and see North Korea, FFS, they see an ancient foreign institution which has somehow emotionally engaged them. We mess with this magical mixture, which projects a fine British brand of stability and pageantry, at our peril

I personally find it absolutely barking mad. I enjoyed the jubilee, I felt a little bit sad when the Queen passed - the way one might feel about a distant but elderly relative. But the mawkishness of the last week or so has not been for me.

What was it Lennon said? You think you're so clever and classless and free...

It’s like religion. Most people are hard-wired to believe and are happier believing. For a similar reason most people are naturally royalist, and this is why great republics often acquire the trappings - the pomp and circumstance - of monarchies even when they started out aiming to avoid this. France and America are the obvious examples. People WANT the mystique and ritual

However a percentage of people just don’t have the mental circuitry for religious belief, and maybe a similar number lack the wiring for royalism. And there is clearly a large overlap between the two

These people just need to accept that they are usually - but not always - in a minority

Look at the popularity of Game of Thrones. Game of Figurehead Presidents? - not so exciting