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Has Johnson got it right clamping down on home working? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited May 2022 in General
imageHas Johnson got it right clamping down on home working? – politicalbetting.com

A big issue that’s being discussed on the talk shows today is home working and Johnson’s effort to get people back inside their offices. All this follows the turmoil created by the measures to control COVID which necessitated office blocks being closed and staff trying to continue by working in their own living rooms.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,162
    2nd. Like Johnson's smaller fridge.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,162
    FPT:

    Bet this meeting is a hoot...

    "President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia is meeting at the Kremlin with the leaders of the Collective Treaty Security Organization, an alliance that also includes five other former Soviet states. President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus, speaking first, criticized some of the allies for insufficient solidarity with Russia and Belarus amid Western sanctions."

    NY Times live blog
  • No.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,662
    "prints off all emails"... 😂
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,162
    Heathener said:

    This is all about control: the Etonians want to enslave the plebs.

    How DARE they have freedom to work as they wish from home. They need to enslave everyone, drive them like cattle. A long hard and totally pointless commute that keeps people enslaved.

    The Nasty Party are well and truly back.

    Johnson's main argument seems to be that he is an ill-disciplined, lazy, cheese-munching slob at home so everyone else must be.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    Heathener said:

    This is all about control: the Etonians want to enslave the plebs.

    How DARE the plebs have freedom to work as they wish from home? A long hard and totally pointless commute that keeps the plebs captured like cattle makes for more control.

    The Nasty Party are well and truly back.

    Bit odd as they are always moaning about the power of the rail and LT unions while making a complete midden of commuter railways.
  • SparksSparks Posts: 7
    This is yet another lump of rotting red meat being thrown to the 'base'. People have been wfh for decades - I know I have, I just do it more now. Behind this is a fear that the donors with big city corporate property portfolios will abandon ship.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Presumably, like most culture war issues, the aim is to be on the wrong side of just enough public opinion while animating a noisy (minority?) group who will enthusiastically present this position as "common sense" in the media. It certainly seems that people who no longer have jobs due to retirement are very keen on preventing others from working from home, and that's a pretty big overlap with the Tories' key support.

    Where this one might differ from other polarising policies is based on who makes the decisions: in the end, the archetype of the turmeric-latte-munching non-Tory-voting millennial doesn't really have much influence over where their company requires them to work - so even if there's a short term opportunity to make retired Tories righteously angry with their "lazy" grandchildren it might no have long-term traction. If WFH carries on being an issue, it's because senior managers and business owners have decided that it's best for their businesses, and some of those people would be natural Conservative voters. That means that the culture war being stoked is between two potential groups of Tories, not between Tories and never-Tories. Maybe no different to the elements of Brexit that damage small businesses, but doesn't seem a particularly effective or intelligent strategy for defending newly-marginal southern seats.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767

    "prints off all emails"... 😂

    that's what 'the staff/help' is for.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    I've never had a proper job so I have no clue how any of this fucking nonsense works but that isn't going to stop me opining on it. Anybody who doesn't take the absolute piss while WFH is a fucking mug who has not grasped Marx's concept of Surplus Value.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,756
    Has Johnson got it right clamping down on home working?

    As I am shortly to open a coworking office faciltiy, I hope not...
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442

    "prints off all emails"... 😂

    It's not just that, JRM probably dictates his replies, but doesn't trust the typists, so has them print the reply out first, reviews that for approval.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Nope, he's utterly wrong.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Shouldn't interfere in running of private businesses. That means both not giving more rights to home work or reducing them. Public sector is tricky. If we had good data on productivity then it should be down to line management with proviso that productivity must not dip. In practice there is patchy information about genuine productivity in the public sector and a load of BS data.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    He's not daft on this. Mechanics, shop workers, delivery people, manual labourers, factory workers etc don't have the luxury of home working and have the capacity to be unimpressed by wealthy professionals whining about having to go to the office. Tioy voters who recently began to home work aren't likely to switch because of the change in tone
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Dyed, I'm not wealthy. Just self-employed, and I work from home.

    Could you explain how a pointless commute so I can type in a building several miles away from my house would benefit me or make me more productive?
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 218
    I wonder if this one has been tested and goes down very well with those parts of the population who do not have the option to WFH.

    For those who do tech is working hard to look for solutions to check on the actual working time, productivity etc. Once that is on place employers will be in a better position to handle it. I suspect the last couple of years will be looked upon as a golden age of WFH.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320
    Ironically.
    This government is furiously thrashing around for levelling up ideas which don't require government spending.
    Here's one. And they don't like it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/15/remote-working-uk-equal-jacob-rees-mogg

    It's almost as if it isn't the real issue.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Farooq, that post is 100% spot on.

    The businesses exist to serve people, people don't exist for the convenience of businesses.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,304
    On topic. Boris is spot on with suspicions of home working bringing far too many negatives, and the electorate will support him.

    More productive or less productive? Those trying to work from home whilst child minding are obviously less productive than both themselves in office without those distractions and a colleague wfh without those distractions. Also depends on tasks. A task needing face-to-face communication is going to be less productive without it.

    don’t call it working from home, call it remote working, for then you have people working remotely since year dot you can compare it to. Back in the sixties there was a study of People out and about working remotely fixing office machinery, each knew a different trick the others didn’t. When they all got together in a diner for a meal they shared all these tricks and productivity shot up. If knowledge share drops off due to remote working, it’s a huge hit on productivity that can only be noticed over longer time spans not shorter ones, why? Becuase most studies have innovation is a key part of productivity, and innovation is now proved to being killed by remote working the earlier studies didn’t pick up.

    Unions should be wary about it. It can’t be measured solely as working from home getting tasks done versus in office getting tasks done. If productivity appears up with home workers it may be because workers slip into longer working hours, the pay off is burn out and mental health, not getting their brains or bodies enough break away from work.

    Rees Mogg is winning this argument single handedly, though Boris intervention has helped. Mogg said it’s used for long weekends, Mondays, Fridays, is he wrong? Let’s look at the stat for the days people most work remotely…
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Dura_Ace said:

    I've never had a proper job so I have no clue how any of this fucking nonsense works but that isn't going to stop me opining on it. Anybody who doesn't take the absolute piss while WFH is a fucking mug who has not grasped Marx's concept of Surplus Value.

    Doesn't that apply equally to working in the office though? Question is which location is better suited to absolute piss-taking - in my experience it's easier to do "work looking" stuff in an office without adding any value than it is when you're working at home. There's only so many strategic management chats you can have while making a cup of tea when you have to phone a colleague to do it rather than wandering round the office looking indefinably important.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Mr. Dyed, I'm not wealthy. Just self-employed, and I work from home.

    Could you explain how a pointless commute so I can type in a building several miles away from my house would benefit me or make me more productive?

    You're self employed, do what you want to do. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise are they?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320

    He's not daft on this. Mechanics, shop workers, delivery people, manual labourers, factory workers etc don't have the luxury of home working and have the capacity to be unimpressed by wealthy professionals whining about having to go to the office. Tioy voters who recently began to home work aren't likely to switch because of the change in tone

    Politics of envy then?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Dean, remote working makes it much more viable to live in remoter, more rural areas (provided there's sufficient comms infrastructure). If you demand everyone goes into an office for vague and mystical reasons then that just returns to the pattern of cramming people into and near cities.

    The internet might yet be the first thing in history that (through success rather than collapse) leads to cities diminishing and villages proliferating. But it needs remote working to happen.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    WfH depends on both the individual and the job. Some jobs cannot be done from home; some are perhaps best done from home; for others the 'best' might be a mixture of office and home working.

    Likewise, some people I know really suffered from a lack of social contact during lockdown, whilst others luxuriated in it and found it easier to work.

    As some have said on here before, it's also hard on new hires, and for young people who might find it hard to progress up the career ladder because their bosses don't 'know' them.

    It's all too messy to say what people should be doing; flexibility is key. But it does seem like a rather obvious way for some companies to save money, and I'd like to see legislation that means that companies have to pay for people to have 'proper' desks, chairs etc at home if they are forced to WfH.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Politically yes. The WFH stuff is a very urban middle class gain from the pandemic, urban middle class people aren't particularly going to be swayed to vote Tory if they suddenly support WFH but being on the side of the "people" vs the "remote ivory tower public sector elites" (delete as appropriate) who are "shirking from home" is absolutely good politics.

    The turmoil in so many state run operations like the passport office and HMRC will feed this fire as well as the government will happily pin the blame on WFH rather than the more likely reason that they are simply short staffed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Dyed, but shouldn't that argument work for private businesses too? And if it works in the private sector, why compel public sector workers to spend hours and money every day commuting if (for particular jobs) it's unnecessary?

    Working in an office is not inherently good.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    edited May 2022
    There probably room for hybrid arrangements of course, it doesnt have to be all in on one or the other
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,162
    Last year, when the economy was recovering and it was inevitable that inflation was set to rise, the Bank ignored its job and kept printing money. The scale of its extra £450 billion of money printing was identical to the increase in government spending. Independent? Who are you trying to kid?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/16/bank-england-plagued-groupthink/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Polruan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I've never had a proper job so I have no clue how any of this fucking nonsense works but that isn't going to stop me opining on it. Anybody who doesn't take the absolute piss while WFH is a fucking mug who has not grasped Marx's concept of Surplus Value.

    Doesn't that apply equally to working in the office though? Question is which location is better suited to absolute piss-taking - in my experience it's easier to do "work looking" stuff in an office without adding any value than it is when you're working at home. There's only so many strategic management chats you can have while making a cup of tea when you have to phone a colleague to do it rather than wandering round the office looking indefinably important.
    I used to try to get into the office early, and I found the most productive time of the day was before about eight thirty, when people started to drift in. My min was fresh, the office was quiet, and I could concentrate without endless interruptions. It felt like I got more work done in a couple of hours before nine than I did in the rest of the day.

    I can imagine Wfh would have the same effect. But not if I needed access to labs or hardware ...

    Flexitime is another part of flexible working that needs more thought by companies.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    dixiedean said:

    He's not daft on this. Mechanics, shop workers, delivery people, manual labourers, factory workers etc don't have the luxury of home working and have the capacity to be unimpressed by wealthy professionals whining about having to go to the office. Tioy voters who recently began to home work aren't likely to switch because of the change in tone

    Politics of envy then?
    Like much of politics, yes. The same as tax the rich arguments etc
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320
    edited May 2022
    I find it much more easy to be productive at home.
    I don't spend roughly an hour a day saying "Morning Jeff. How was your weekend?"
    Nor, being distracted by colleagues who can't cope without verbalising their internal monologues for fear that a moment of peace may cause them to reflect on the vacuity of their existence.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    MaxPB said:

    Politically yes. The WFH stuff is a very urban middle class gain from the pandemic, urban middle class people aren't particularly going to be swayed to vote Tory if they suddenly support WFH but being on the side of the "people" vs the "remote ivory tower public sector elites" (delete as appropriate) who are "shirking from home" is absolutely good politics.

    The turmoil in so many state run operations like the passport office and HMRC will feed this fire as well as the government will happily pin the blame on WFH rather than the more likely reason that they are simply short staffed.

    This isn't 1960. The vast majority of employees in the country work in the office. Lorry drivers, mechanics, fishermen and agricultural workers are a tiny share of the modern workforce. The biggest chunk that can't work from home are retail workers, and they are still a small minority.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903
    It often seems to me like most of this government's rhetoric is bespoke tailored to get that stereotypical Red Wall leave voter nodding their head and going "yeah too fucking right".
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Mr. Dyed, but shouldn't that argument work for private businesses too? And if it works in the private sector, why compel public sector workers to spend hours and money every day commuting if (for particular jobs) it's unnecessary?

    Working in an office is not inherently good.

    Nor is it inherently bad. Private sector employers can make their own decisions of course, as the government are iro public sector.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030

    Mr. Dyed, I'm not wealthy. Just self-employed, and I work from home.

    Could you explain how a pointless commute so I can type in a building several miles away from my house would benefit me or make me more productive?

    If you work as part of a team where knowledge sharing is critical then it probably does, over time.

    But AIUI, you are a self employed individual
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188
    It's not a binary choice of 100% WFH or 100% in the office.

    One benefit with hybrid/WFH is that I've just recruited someone who lives in Birmingham, top person who I wouldn't have been able to recruit if they had to be in Manchester 100% of the time.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,083
    edited May 2022
    Further to my first post on this thread, a slightly less angry response.

    I think WFH has been one of THE great success stories to come out of covid. Not necessarily that it should be considered all the time. Of course social interaction is great and there are plenty of industries which do need face to face or hand to till action.

    But for the most part being able to work from home at least some of the time has revolutionised people's lives and, as mentioned by others below, has the capacity to breathe new life into communities far from the cities. I am by and large far more productive working from home. Yes I get up and make cups of coffee or tea but so what?

    It's threatening to the powers-that-be because it's a huge social revolution. But it's one arguably brought about by brilliant internet connectivity spreading around the world. Covid was merely the catalyst.

    This attack on WFH is a reactionary and retrograde step by Boris and chums.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    FPT:

    Bet this meeting is a hoot...

    "President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia is meeting at the Kremlin with the leaders of the Collective Treaty Security Organization, an alliance that also includes five other former Soviet states. President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus, speaking first, criticized some of the allies for insufficient solidarity with Russia and Belarus amid Western sanctions."

    NY Times live blog

    Presumably some discussions around Article 4 of the Collective Security Treaty, which establishes that an aggression against one signatory would be perceived as an aggression against all.

    Like a Poundland-NATO.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Unlikely to have the same demographic, footfall etc in a suburban environment and thus not as economically viable. And Dorothy Perkins and Lakeland aren't going to be relocating there. Increased WFH will continue to decimate the high street. Rights/wrongs aside it will happen in those circs
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,718
    The idea that people working from home will be as productive as folk working alongside colleagues (and managers) is obviously laughable - unless they are a novelist or poet.

    Whether the politics of pointing this out is smart, I don't know, but most people surely recognise this, even if they are enjoying the freedom and cost-savings of not commuting.

    Surprised this is even being debated TBH. But then the entitlement of some people, usually white-collared professionals with handsome pension provision, never ceases to amaze.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188
    I note Boris Johnson also works from home a lot.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,083



    Surprised this is even being debated TBH. But then the entitlement of some people, usually white-collared professionals with handsome pension provision, never ceases to amaze.

    The irony of this is that this kind of snide comment is the very entitlement you criticise others of making. It's all that old sneering metropolitan elitism coming back into play: the very thing that fuelled Brexit.

    You're on the wrong side of history on this one and the people will vote with their slippers.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    edited May 2022
    As I said last night, the market will determine what happens. I think good employees are going to want to wfh 2-3 days a week, and this then broadens the recruitment pool as they will also be willing to travel further. Good and successful employers will embrace this and buy up the good people. Bad employers will not.

    As an aside, we’re also about to see Gvt get much worse, as JRM successfully chases out some of the best civil servants (the ones who are most mobile and can get other jobs) with his demoralising bullshit.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,083

    It's not a binary choice of 100% WFH or 100% in the office.

    One benefit with hybrid/WFH is that I've just recruited someone who lives in Birmingham, top person who I wouldn't have been able to recruit if they had to be in Manchester 100% of the time.

    Exactly
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    Dura_Ace said:

    I've never had a proper job so I have no clue how any of this fucking nonsense works but that isn't going to stop me opining on it. Anybody who doesn't take the absolute piss while WFH is a fucking mug who has not grasped Marx's concept of Surplus Value.

    The work is hard
    The pay is small
    So take your time
    And sod them all


  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    kinabalu said:

    It often seems to me like most of this government's rhetoric is bespoke tailored to get that stereotypical Red Wall leave voter nodding their head and going "yeah too fucking right".

    It is. And it probably will.
    That's politics.
    Labour, for example, just say everything the Tories do is 'out of touch' and get the Tory haters and waverers etc to nod along
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,083
    I also find the hypocrisy of Daily Mail journalists flabberg ... well I was going to write flabbergasting but why am I surprised?

    Loads of them hardly ever go near Northcliffe House these days.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,497

    I note Boris Johnson also works from home a lot.

    Pfff. An absence of working hard elsewhere does not necessarily correlate with working a lot from home.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    MISTY said:

    Heathener said:

    This is all about control: the Etonians want to enslave the plebs.

    How DARE the plebs have freedom to work as they wish from home? A long hard and totally pointless commute that keeps the plebs captured like cattle makes for more control.

    The Nasty Party are well and truly back.

    It isn't the plebs who are working from home.

    Its middle class professionals.

    That person delivering your groceries, posting your mail, mending your roof or filling the potholes the road outside? The one who cannot work from home?

    That's a pleb.
    Those people are Head Count, not Plebs.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Aslan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Politically yes. The WFH stuff is a very urban middle class gain from the pandemic, urban middle class people aren't particularly going to be swayed to vote Tory if they suddenly support WFH but being on the side of the "people" vs the "remote ivory tower public sector elites" (delete as appropriate) who are "shirking from home" is absolutely good politics.

    The turmoil in so many state run operations like the passport office and HMRC will feed this fire as well as the government will happily pin the blame on WFH rather than the more likely reason that they are simply short staffed.

    This isn't 1960. The vast majority of employees in the country work in the office. Lorry drivers, mechanics, fishermen and agricultural workers are a tiny share of the modern workforce. The biggest chunk that can't work from home are retail workers, and they are still a small minority.
    I think mandatory on site vs optional on site is probably close to 50/50, though that's a real finger in the air guess. There's just a lot of sectors which are service and performance oriented.

    Again, I don't think attacking wfh helps anyone and I also don't think remote working or full time wfh is beneficial for employees or companies. We've halted remote recruitment and contracts now specify a minimum in office requirement per quarter (15 working days, essentially one week per month) that people can arrange how they like.

    Our view is that if people don't like it they can lump it and find a different job, so far there's been a small rebellion but we've also found that the people who are upset are also people we can afford to lose and replace and I think this is what will become more common, the shirkers from home will quickly find that opportunities dry up so it's not something the government needs to involve itself with.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442

    The idea that people working from home will be as productive as folk working alongside colleagues (and managers) is obviously laughable - unless they are a novelist or poet.

    Whether the politics of pointing this out is smart, I don't know, but most people surely recognise this, even if they are enjoying the freedom and cost-savings of not commuting.

    Surprised this is even being debated TBH. But then the entitlement of some people, usually white-collared professionals with handsome pension provision, never ceases to amaze.

    My firm went 100% WFH during the pandemic, and hours billed went, er, up.

    Unlike most businesses, we effectively track productivity directly.

    Don't get me wrong, I sometimes feel less efficient at home - it just turns out these things balance out. I'm looking forward to a hybrid model.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    From one of Zelensky's team:

    @Podolyak_M
    Some Western politicians want to end the war and "save face" of 🇷🇺 by giving it part of a territory, - @politico. Save face after Bucha and Mariupol? Strange logic, but if these politicians want to give away part of their territories, it is up to their electorate.


    https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1526173245162016768
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,497
    Farooq said:

    Productivity is also improved if you're not spend 2 hours per day commuting into work, waking up at 7am instead of 5am and finishing work at 6pm and being at home moments after you've finished work is great.

    Relatedly, ever worked somewhere where there's only one train per hour to get you home? I have and I tell you the end of the day came down like a guillotine. Whatever is happening, I'm stopping because I'm not sitting at that fucking train station for 59 minutes just because Susan would prefer the spreadsheet's header rows to be blue instead of green. WFH means you can keep going til ten past just to finish something without it ruining your evening.
    Why would you have green header rows in the first place?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,073
    edited May 2022
    Change to Austria travel requirements. My, how things have changed:

    “Passengers arriving in Austria do NOT need to show proof of COVID vaccination, a negative COVID test, or a certificate of recovery from COVID.

    Entry requirements for Austria are the same for all travellers, regardless of COVID-19 vaccination status.”
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,477
    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 876
    My own view on WFH is to let the market, rather than the Government, decide. If companies that offer WFH do worse than those that don't, then WFH will die off. I understand that this concept used to be associated with the Conservative Party.

    Personally, in my own bit of the Ivory Tower, we've always had some version of flexible/hybrid system because a day's work quite often doesn't fit into a day. So, for my own preferences and working practices, I quite like the idea of a presumption of working from the office, while WFH is for specific circumstances. But that works best for me, and might not make sense for someone else in a different role.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,675
    Government transparency latest. Cabinet Office refuses to reveal cost of taxpayer of "custom built" wardrobe in former Johnson aide's office.

    Top scoop by @SophiaSleigh

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/cabinet-office-refuses-to-reveal-price-of-custom-built-wardrobe-for-ex-johnson-aide_uk_624c3061e4b068157f7c4540
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,675
    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843

    The idea that people working from home will be as productive as folk working alongside colleagues (and managers) is obviously laughable - unless they are a novelist or poet.

    Whether the politics of pointing this out is smart, I don't know, but most people surely recognise this, even if they are enjoying the freedom and cost-savings of not commuting.

    Surprised this is even being debated TBH. But then the entitlement of some people, usually white-collared professionals with handsome pension provision, never ceases to amaze.

    My firm went 100% WFH during the pandemic, and hours billed went, er, up.

    Unlike most businesses, we effectively track productivity directly.

    Don't get me wrong, I sometimes feel less efficient at home - it just turns out these things balance out. I'm looking forward to a hybrid model.
    In the office we all chat to people, and make tea/coffee, go out for lunch, go for a walk, leave early because someone suggests the pub, have pointless meetings etc. You do unproductive things - just different unproductive things. I stand by 2-3 days in the office (depending on need) being the sweet spot and the new normal.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    From one of Zelensky's team:

    @Podolyak_M
    Some Western politicians want to end the war and "save face" of 🇷🇺 by giving it part of a territory, - @politico. Save face after Bucha and Mariupol? Strange logic, but if these politicians want to give away part of their territories, it is up to their electorate.


    https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1526173245162016768

    There's hell to pay for breaking international law, says the pro-EU politician over Northern Ireland.

    Unless you are a murderous tyrant and serial breaker of international law. In which case, bonus territory!!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,073

    The idea that people working from home will be as productive as folk working alongside colleagues (and managers) is obviously laughable - unless they are a novelist or poet.

    Whether the politics of pointing this out is smart, I don't know, but most people surely recognise this, even if they are enjoying the freedom and cost-savings of not commuting.

    Surprised this is even being debated TBH. But then the entitlement of some people, usually white-collared professionals with handsome pension provision, never ceases to amaze.

    It's little more than a try-on really. Use the pandemic to do what you prefer without taking a pay-cut.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    biggles said:

    As I said last night, the market will determine what happens. I think good employees are going to want to wfh 2-3 days a week, and this then broadens the recruitment pool as they will also be willing to travel further. Good and successful employers will embrace this and buy up the good people. Bad employers will not.

    As an aside, we’re also about to see Gvt get much worse, as JRM successfully chases out some of the best civil servants (the ones who are most mobile and can get other jobs) with his demoralising bullshit.

    I can't help thinking WFH 2-3 days a week is a worst of all worlds outcome. You can't move to a new area, have a much better home. You still have to be tied to the commute.

    Employers who embrace 0 days a week in the office, with maybe a 2 days a month catch-up with all staff together (expenses paid) are going to be far more attractive to the best minds. Partly because it says "we trust you".
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,073

    Mr. Dyed, I'm not wealthy. Just self-employed, and I work from home.

    Could you explain how a pointless commute so I can type in a building several miles away from my house would benefit me or make me more productive?

    Were't you working from home before the pandemic?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Productivity is also improved if you're not spend 2 hours per day commuting into work, waking up at 7am instead of 5am and finishing work at 6pm and being at home moments after you've finished work is great.

    Relatedly, ever worked somewhere where there's only one train per hour to get you home? I have and I tell you the end of the day came down like a guillotine. Whatever is happening, I'm stopping because I'm not sitting at that fucking train station for 59 minutes just because Susan would prefer the spreadsheet's header rows to be blue instead of green. WFH means you can keep going til ten past just to finish something without it ruining your evening.
    Why would you have green header rows in the first place?
    Because Allan said so.
    Don't try to get into the minds of Susan and Allan. Why these things matter to them is above my pay grade.
    Of course neither Susan nor Allan understand what the spreadsheet means or does. They just like that the graph goes up.

    Susan and Allen cheer when the PM calls homeworkers lazy.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,497
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Productivity is also improved if you're not spend 2 hours per day commuting into work, waking up at 7am instead of 5am and finishing work at 6pm and being at home moments after you've finished work is great.

    Relatedly, ever worked somewhere where there's only one train per hour to get you home? I have and I tell you the end of the day came down like a guillotine. Whatever is happening, I'm stopping because I'm not sitting at that fucking train station for 59 minutes just because Susan would prefer the spreadsheet's header rows to be blue instead of green. WFH means you can keep going til ten past just to finish something without it ruining your evening.
    Why would you have green header rows in the first place?
    Because Allan said so.
    Don't try to get into the minds of Susan and Allan. Why these things matter to them is above my pay grade.
    Listen to Susan and you will promoted ahead of Allan.
  • MrBristolMrBristol Posts: 28
    All seems a bit out of touch and has the air of 'dead cat' about it.

    My current place of work shut the original office and have moved next door, down from 2000+ desks to 3-400 flexible ones. There is no way we can ever fit back in even if we want to.

    I've been going in most weeks for a day, but it is dead and feels somewhat futile. Good if the whole team is in, but otherwise just a mild bit of socialising and pondering how much less productive we are in the office.

    Downside of WFH for me is I tend to start work earlier and finish later, not really mastered the work life balance bit.

    Ta
    MrB

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,497

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
    Might have just had enough of it.....not a natural politician so perhaps did not know what he was letting himself in for.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843

    biggles said:

    As I said last night, the market will determine what happens. I think good employees are going to want to wfh 2-3 days a week, and this then broadens the recruitment pool as they will also be willing to travel further. Good and successful employers will embrace this and buy up the good people. Bad employers will not.

    As an aside, we’re also about to see Gvt get much worse, as JRM successfully chases out some of the best civil servants (the ones who are most mobile and can get other jobs) with his demoralising bullshit.

    I can't help thinking WFH 2-3 days a week is a worst of all worlds outcome. You can't move to a new area, have a much better home. You still have to be tied to the commute.

    Employers who embrace 0 days a week in the office, with maybe a 2 days a month catch-up with all staff together (expenses paid) are going to be far more attractive to the best minds. Partly because it says "we trust you".
    I don’t necessarily disagree. And I do think we trust the market on this one. I might currently be over correcting for not seeing anyone for ages, and missing London. I’ll change my time after the first train strike.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    "You ain't seen me do nuffin' copper, capiche?"
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
    Might have just had enough of it.....not a natural politician so perhaps did not know what he was letting himself in for.
    That is possible I think. Just CBA with it anymore so is engineering an exit
  • Farooq said:

    MISTY said:

    From one of Zelensky's team:

    @Podolyak_M
    Some Western politicians want to end the war and "save face" of 🇷🇺 by giving it part of a territory, - @politico. Save face after Bucha and Mariupol? Strange logic, but if these politicians want to give away part of their territories, it is up to their electorate.


    https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1526173245162016768

    There's hell to pay for breaking international law, says the pro-EU politician over Northern Ireland.

    Unless you are a murderous tyrant and serial breaker of international law. In which case, bonus territory!!
    I wonder how Northern Ireland became part of the UK in the first place... 🧐
    Northern Ireland voted to be. 🗳
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
    Implementing Blair's whiter than white, huh? Well it would be a first....
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    MrBristol said:

    All seems a bit out of touch and has the air of 'dead cat' about it.

    My current place of work shut the original office and have moved next door, down from 2000+ desks to 3-400 flexible ones. There is no way we can ever fit back in even if we want to.

    I've been going in most weeks for a day, but it is dead and feels somewhat futile. Good if the whole team is in, but otherwise just a mild bit of socialising and pondering how much less productive we are in the office.

    Downside of WFH for me is I tend to start work earlier and finish later, not really mastered the work life balance bit.

    Ta
    MrB

    I was doing that, then I forced myself to go for a walk when I finish work, and tie that as best I can to a given time. Psychologically gives you a “commute” and separation.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,325
    Unpopular said:

    My own view on WFH is to let the market, rather than the Government, decide. If companies that offer WFH do worse than those that don't, then WFH will die off. I understand that this concept used to be associated with the Conservative Party.

    Personally, in my own bit of the Ivory Tower, we've always had some version of flexible/hybrid system because a day's work quite often doesn't fit into a day. So, for my own preferences and working practices, I quite like the idea of a presumption of working from the office, while WFH is for specific circumstances. But that works best for me, and might not make sense for someone else in a different role.

    Agree. Let the market and the laws of reality decide.

    Also, each individual has to take responsibility for their own life. I have always worked from home and never had a boss. I would not have it otherwise given a choice. But if I couldn't, I would put up with it.

    We are all in the same boat really. And lots of people hate working from home and love the sociability of other ways of working. Lots of people hate working except in the open air. Government should keep out except where it has employer responsibilities. There are lots of public sector unions to protect the employee interests.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    The Registers of Scotland have admitted that they have 106K land registrations that they have yet to process, some dating back to January 2017. What was not an insignificant backlog before Covid has spiraled out of control. The staff of the registers are still working from home. It is not working for anyone else.

    Today I got an invite to the AD's Christmas drinks on Friday. Not saying that there is a backlog there but...
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
    Might have just had enough of it.....not a natural politician so perhaps did not know what he was letting himself in for.
    Certainly, if he doesn’t walk that statement back then the Labour wolves who want to be PM will start to circle.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,565

    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
    That's quite common once you establish WFH practices. We encourage people to go out for a walk, run errands, meet with friends and family at lunchtime to avoid "chained to your desk" burnout. We also meet up in local groups at coffee shops etc and work together/beside one another once or twice a week.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,225
    MrBristol said:

    All seems a bit out of touch and has the air of 'dead cat' about it.

    My current place of work shut the original office and have moved next door, down from 2000+ desks to 3-400 flexible ones. There is no way we can ever fit back in even if we want to.

    I've been going in most weeks for a day, but it is dead and feels somewhat futile. Good if the whole team is in, but otherwise just a mild bit of socialising and pondering how much less productive we are in the office.

    Downside of WFH for me is I tend to start work earlier and finish later, not really mastered the work life balance bit.

    Ta
    MrB

    This is, of course, why the moneybags that back certain Tory MPs are very concerned about wfh: it is devaluing city centre real estate.

    I am familiar with a number of companies that have greeted the move to wider WFH with joy and gladness as it has freed them from the very considerable expense of moving to larger office space. Repeat that across the country & all those city centre tower blocks are never going to make the expected rental income for the forseeabe future. If the establishment is reaching for the culture war toolbox already then the situation must really be dire.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    He'll be saying he will step down if he hasn't done anything wrong next.
    Implementing Blair's whiter than white, huh? Well it would be a first....
    First condemned man in history to tell the hangman the noose looks very frayed
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,217

    On topic. Boris is spot on with suspicions of home working bringing far too many negatives, and the electorate will support him.

    More productive or less productive? Those trying to work from home whilst child minding are obviously less productive than both themselves in office without those distractions and a colleague wfh without those distractions. Also depends on tasks. A task needing face-to-face communication is going to be less productive without it.

    don’t call it working from home, call it remote working, for then you have people working remotely since year dot you can compare it to. Back in the sixties there was a study of People out and about working remotely fixing office machinery, each knew a different trick the others didn’t. When they all got together in a diner for a meal they shared all these tricks and productivity shot up. If knowledge share drops off due to remote working, it’s a huge hit on productivity that can only be noticed over longer time spans not shorter ones, why? Becuase most studies have innovation is a key part of productivity, and innovation is now proved to being killed by remote working the earlier studies didn’t pick up.

    Unions should be wary about it. It can’t be measured solely as working from home getting tasks done versus in office getting tasks done. If productivity appears up with home workers it may be because workers slip into longer working hours, the pay off is burn out and mental health, not getting their brains or bodies enough break away from work.

    Rees Mogg is winning this argument single handedly, though Boris intervention has helped. Mogg said it’s used for long weekends, Mondays, Fridays, is he wrong? Let’s look at the stat for the days people most work remotely…

    For a self-professed Lib Dem, you're awfully fond of echoing the government line of the week on a fairly regular basis.

    The latest bit of posturing from Boris and and etiolated tw@t is not only utterly risible, but also utterly weird from a party which profess themselves to trust the market to sort our this kind of issue.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    mwadams said:

    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
    That's quite common once you establish WFH practices. We encourage people to go out for a walk, run errands, meet with friends and family at lunchtime to avoid "chained to your desk" burnout. We also meet up in local groups at coffee shops etc and work together/beside one another once or twice a week.
    Yes you have to watch that in staff. Counterintuitively (to the PM) people working from home often chain themselves to the desk and feel they have to be constantly available far more than they do in the office.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited May 2022
    I've got a hunch that working from home is a really bad idea. But it'll take a long time to find out whether that's right.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,565
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    As I said last night, the market will determine what happens. I think good employees are going to want to wfh 2-3 days a week, and this then broadens the recruitment pool as they will also be willing to travel further. Good and successful employers will embrace this and buy up the good people. Bad employers will not.

    As an aside, we’re also about to see Gvt get much worse, as JRM successfully chases out some of the best civil servants (the ones who are most mobile and can get other jobs) with his demoralising bullshit.

    I can't help thinking WFH 2-3 days a week is a worst of all worlds outcome. You can't move to a new area, have a much better home. You still have to be tied to the commute.

    Employers who embrace 0 days a week in the office, with maybe a 2 days a month catch-up with all staff together (expenses paid) are going to be far more attractive to the best minds. Partly because it says "we trust you".
    I don’t necessarily disagree. And I do think we trust the market on this one. I might currently be over correcting for not seeing anyone for ages, and missing London. I’ll change my time after the first train strike.
    We went into London for our monthly team meetup a couple of weeks ago. We agreed that we missed the excellent but expensive lunch options. And nothing else.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,662

    dixiedean said:

    He's not daft on this. Mechanics, shop workers, delivery people, manual labourers, factory workers etc don't have the luxury of home working and have the capacity to be unimpressed by wealthy professionals whining about having to go to the office. Tioy voters who recently began to home work aren't likely to switch because of the change in tone

    Politics of envy then?
    Like much of politics, yes. The same as tax the rich arguments etc
    Except the tax money you get off the rich can be spent on useful stuff. And many of the rich would like to see the rich taxed more, myself included, so it's not all about the politics of envy.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
    Sandwich less so, coffee quite often (based on an unrepresentative sample of "people in my team who live walking distance from somewhere to buy coffee). Actually the bigger difference is probably things like local food shops - if you commuted, going to the butcher or fishmonger wasn't an option because they were open 8-4, so it's supermarket or nothing. Now it's possible, which I would have thought would be the dream for the "save the local high street" wing of politics.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,302
    edited May 2022
    It's undoubtedly true that Covid has accelerated the move towards WFH. But it hasn't caused it. Flexible working patterns in the Civil Service, for example, started many years ago, particularly for London-based staff. Many colleagues came into London for 1-3 days a week, and worked at home for the rest of the week (obviously only where this was appropriate for the role). My own role was defined as WFH, with equipment provided, with regular visits to HO for meetings, training etc. The trend would have continued, but been slower, without Covid.

    Far too difficult for JRM to find this out, apparently.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    Scott_xP said:

    This appears to be a major change. Now saying he’ll resign if the police say he breached rules, not just if he’s issued an FPN. https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1526172579958071296

    "You ain't seen me do nuffin' copper, capiche?"
    If anything, the level of integrity I have hinders my ability to exist without causing angels to cry. It's a burden I carry with incredible humility.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    biggles said:

    mwadams said:

    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
    That's quite common once you establish WFH practices. We encourage people to go out for a walk, run errands, meet with friends and family at lunchtime to avoid "chained to your desk" burnout. We also meet up in local groups at coffee shops etc and work together/beside one another once or twice a week.
    Yes you have to watch that in staff. Counterintuitively (to the PM) people working from home often chain themselves to the desk and feel they have to be constantly available far more than they do in the office.
    Roddy Dunlop QC said it was the difference between WFH and living at work. Its really important to have psychological boundaries and learn to have time when emails just have to wait. Physical boundaries definitely help with this as well if your accomodation can achieve it. Stay away from your workstation when not working. Don't be tempted to stay there, even to play on PB!
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,565
    Andy_JS said:

    I've got a hunch that working from home is a really bad idea. But it'll take a long time to find out whether that's right.

    We've been WFH for about 6 years now. It took us about 3 years to figure out how to do things like onboarding and apprentice training. The pandemic was a new set of much tougher constraints. Those being relaxed again has made WFH a pleasure.

    A lot of it is spending on things instead of the office space - meetups, co-working spaces or a stipend for junior staff whose living space is unsuitable for home working, these kinds of things.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    edited May 2022
    You could argue WFH is a another victory for the idea that the most important value in life is convenience.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,565
    DavidL said:

    biggles said:

    mwadams said:

    Polruan said:

    There are also knock on effects of emptying city centres of offices and office workers - from the little sandwich business on the corner to city centre pubs and hospitality to lunchtime shoppers in high street shops.

    And of repopulating suburbs and villages with shops, sandwich businesses and sellers of decent coffee for all the people who are now at home in the day rather than absent for 12-14 hours.
    Is it likely that people working from home pop out for an hour at lunchtime to buy a sandwich and a cup of coffee?
    That's quite common once you establish WFH practices. We encourage people to go out for a walk, run errands, meet with friends and family at lunchtime to avoid "chained to your desk" burnout. We also meet up in local groups at coffee shops etc and work together/beside one another once or twice a week.
    Yes you have to watch that in staff. Counterintuitively (to the PM) people working from home often chain themselves to the desk and feel they have to be constantly available far more than they do in the office.
    Roddy Dunlop QC said it was the difference between WFH and living at work. Its really important to have psychological boundaries and learn to have time when emails just have to wait. Physical boundaries definitely help with this as well if your accomodation can achieve it. Stay away from your workstation when not working. Don't be tempted to stay there, even to play on PB!
    Right now, I am sitting on the sofa with my phone to read PB, for precisely that reason.

    I'm doing a bit of a work collaboratively with a colleague this afternoon and I'm waiting for them to get back from lunch
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,217
    Dura_Ace said:

    I've never had a proper job so I have no clue how any of this fucking nonsense works but that isn't going to stop me opining on it. Anybody who doesn't take the absolute piss while WFH is a fucking mug who has not grasped Marx's concept of Surplus Value.

    With online tutoring and parting out BMW/Porsches, you're 100% WFH.

    And an arch capitalist, to boot. :smile:
This discussion has been closed.